For the First Time I Regret Building a Library in Logos

I should have seen it coming, but the decision to go all in on subscription makes me regret years of investment in Logos. I completely understand that there may be some features, especially those that use AI computing, that might require a subscription. And I also happily pay for some applications by subscription when it makes sense. And I understand business models. But Logos is a bit of a different application. It's always been marketed as a library where you can buy all your books digitally instead of physically and for those of us who make our living with our Bibles and biblical resources a digital library should function like a physical one.

It also seems like Logos never considers the fact that many believers work in countries where constant traffic back and forth to Logos servers is actually a security risk. And in addition, many of us work time to time where there isn't great internet. Obviously these changes in Logos has been coming for a while, but it seems Logos is only interested in the market that uses always on high speed internet and can afford subscriptions. There have been signs of this for a while in the desktop app and especially in the iOS app but I suppose it's really clear now. The iOS app is often frustrating when you don't have an internet connection and I suppose all the platforms will eventually become this way. Perhaps Logos simply isn't interested in any market outside the affluent Christian market in developed countries. If so, I understand, after all Logos is a business.

I understand Logos says everything we have up until now will keep working and I believe Logos intends to keep that promise. But like any application that is stuck in time over time, you end up with a very limited, out of date program that still runs but is effectively stuck in the past. We've all had apps like that and they become a pain to use.

And yes I understand that some amazing stuff can be done with AI, etc and I can understand how some of those features could require a subscription because of the resources needed. I used to work in technology so I'm sure there are many new cool features that some will use. I'm not against that - Logos should do that for the market that wants and needs it. It just shouldn't force that on the entire customer base if they want to be the best Bible software for everyone. But maybe Logos only cares about some parts of the Bible software market.

I'm not anti-subscription, but for an app that was built to replace our bookshelves which can offer lots of great features that easily run on a local machine it's sad to see Logos more and more to go a model that requires online and is subscription based. It's sad to see their future futures are really only designed for one kind of customer.

Honestly for the first time I feel really stupid for how much I've invested in Logos. It's enough that my guess is Logos will get some more money out of me to try to make sure I can keep what I have and not get stuck with an out of date program too quickly. I don't understand the plan to require us to buy 24 months of subscription to keep a "legacy" license (even then no one likes to be stuck with legacy software). And maybe I will have to pay to keep things working for a bit. But it will be money that is paid begrudgingly while I (hopefully) find better a better solution. Although with the current state of competing products I'm not sure there is an excellent alternative. Especially when I have so much invested. After recommending Logos to lots of students and others for over a decade, I no longer can.

I'm sure my "legacy" Logos will work for a while and I can get plenty done with the current features I have because I've done every full feature upgrade for years. But there will be regret in spending thousands of dollars on something as it now effectively moves on and becomes a legacy app.

It seems there there really could have been a win/win with online, subscription features for things that demanded it and local, purchased features for that kind of user that either can't or doesn't want to use internet for Bible study. But obviously that decision has been made.

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Comments

Justin Gatlin

Samuel, I understand your disappointment, but I think you may have misunderstood the legacy license concept.

Logos has always provided the actual software for free. Someone who last bought Logos 15 years ago can still run Logos version 36 today. They will have the same speed and security improvements as someone with a Logos Max subscription and a 30k resource library. You do not need to pay to keep access to all of the features you have, which already replace a bookshelf and a research assistant. I feel comfortable with Logos's commitment on this because they have kept it for decades already, and have never mistreated existing customers who chose not to upgrade. They kept offering the new engine with the old features, at no additional cost. Indeed, Logos continues to provide older users with lots of things that cost them money, like syncing and repeated downloads.

What is changing is that new features will only be available via subscription. If you want to get the Bible Study Builder, smart search, summarization, etc., in the past you needed a base package and now you will need a subscription. There will be no permanent access to features for new customers, but existing customers are given a fallback license for offline features (that is where the Legacy comes in, not that the software is somehow inferior). For some customers, those new features will not be worth it, but frankly, the Logos 10 full feature set already offers almost everything you could ever want that can be feasibly offered with the power of a laptop.

Bobby Terhune

Samuel,

we are victims of our desire for bible software to go places, bible software has never been able to go before.

Mobile phones and tablets just don’t have the power to match the desktop, hence the need for internet access to servers that do the heavy lifting for us. No internet access equals poor performance.

the same goes for the desktop, some of the cool and best features in Logos 10 need access to Logos servers that process our requests in a timely fashion.

i guess you could advocate for a stripped down feature set that will work good without internet service. But wait your already getting that in the Legacy Fallback License!

Beloved Amodeo

It also seems like Logos never considers the fact that many believers work in countries where constant traffic back and forth to Logos servers is actually a security risk. And in addition, many of us work time to time where there isn't great internet.

I am and have always been technologically privileged. But this doesn't prevent me from lamenting along with those who are underserved.

Unlike you I am technically ignorant and have but a basic understanding of the internet and all things surrounding computers. I'm sure if there were some work arounds you are already using them to advantage. I advocate for robust offline compatibility as we move forward. Although I am unfamiliar with the details I think it is fair to say that if Logos intends to be globally predominant they should invest some profit into keeping their offline functionality competitive.

Thanks for bringing your perspective onstage.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318879#Comment_1318879

I too have been struggling with this..... Though I did make what may be my last purchase from Logos for a resource I have been waiting on.... I wasn't sure about that purchase and may still wonder...

I have tried to talk myself into giving them at least one chance with the new format of business - but I do NOT want to be forced into changing my study flow and lose efficient function for the sake of fluff that comes with the Dynamic Toolbar....

Something that I wish some would realize both Logos employees and users alike - pointing to Logos not charging users after a long ago purchase as though Logos is doing something incredible is quite jaded.... Why? The comparisons are typically Microsoft, Netflix or some other business rather than the most comparable being other digital book providers.

I can only speak to Amazon Kindle and Google Play Books - but neither has ever charged me for the engine to read the books I purchase from them. I have seen features added, though not as complex as features we have in Logos - but again - I PAID for those features, I do not for the engine or features that make up the engine for Play or Kindle... Nor do Google or Amazon require a subscription or act as though a customer is taking advantage of them or expecting stuff for free - as some comments through this process have hinted at....

I feel for those who are new and/or missed out on purchasing L10 FFS, as if the understanding is correct that there is no LFL for new users - they will be forced to subscribe or have a near featureless engine to read their resources...

Samuel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318870#Comment_1318870

Samuel, I understand your disappointment, but I think you may have misunderstood the legacy license concept.

Maybe I misunderstood, but if I understand what you wrote I don't think I did. We are supposed to pay a two year subscription to somehow not lose certain features. But then understand that new features are only available to subscribers. So while I understand that Logos may allow users to update the core reader, they are saying that any new features and development are only for subscribers. Thus, as I said, those of us who don't want to pay a subscription or aren't interested in that model now own a very expensive library in a piece of software that is now frozen in time. So assuming Logos keeps it's promise, and I'm not saying they won't, the best case is a frozen in time piece of software with no development outside the subscription based features. Hopefully some people can understand how that feels like being locked into an eco-system where you are accommodated but clearly the company cares about other users. The very word "legacy" in the license is a term that in the software space mans an old piece of software we no longer develop or invest in but have to support because we aren't unable to get rid of it. Hardly anything that generates much interest in Logos from this point forward. I understand it's now a subscription company and I understand the business model. It just sucks to have so heavily invested in something to wake up one day and realize you are now a "legacy" customer. And developers have no interest in legacy apps. They are forced to accommodate them.

Although I am unfamiliar with the details I think it is fair to say that if Logos intends to be globally predominant they should invest some profit into keeping their offline functionality competitive

I have seen no indications in the last few years that Logos has any interest in this but I'm happy to be proven wrong. The direction seems to have consistently been force the user online to be online for more and more functionality.

we are victims of our desire for bible software to go places, bible software has never been able to go before.

Mobile phones and tablets just don’t have the power to match the desktop, hence the need for internet access to servers that do the heavy lifting for us. No internet access equals poor performance.

I get that - I used to work in software And I do love people using tech to open up new capacities for biblical research. I'm just saying this kind of tech and it's financial model could have been easily added to Logos instead of forcing everyone in this direction. They made a business decision that will make a bunch of us "legacy" users that Logos accommodates but no longer considers in their product. And to be fair it's a business, not a non-profit and that is their right. Just sucks for some of us especially when it's not easy to move to another alternative.

And as far as mobile and tablets I'm just saying Logos already made a shift for features that could have been local to be internet. I don't think anyone expects mobile apps to have desktop performance.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318889#Comment_1318889

The very word "legacy" in the license is a term that in the software space mans an old piece of software we no longer develop or invest in but have to support because we aren't unable to get rid of it

I don't know if this is helpful to you at all but Mark explained some of the reasoning behind using the word legacy at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/221543/1314117.aspx#1314117

Bobby Terhune

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318889#Comment_1318889

Beloved Amodeo,

"Although I am unfamiliar with the details I think it is fair to say that if Logos intends to be globally predominant they should invest some profit into keeping their offline functionality competitive."

The problem as I see it, is that it's a catch 22. more offline functionality needs more local power. Poorer areas of the world are not probably going to have the money for that equipment.

Bob Pritchet a long time ago commented on people complaining about the price of Logos and the high cost of books. He said that there were plenty of cheap or free bible software packages to take care of that market. his market was the high end of the bible software market, that could support development costs and purchase books to keep the doors open.

Samuel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318890#Comment_1318890

I don't know if this is helpful to you at all but Mark explained some of the reasoning behind using the word legacy at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/221543/1314117.aspx#1314117

Thanks for sharing that, but honestly it seems to communicate what I said - a bunch of us are now "legacy" users that Logos will no longer develop for but they will keep the engine going. While it's great that the engine isn't being abandoned, it still communicates the gist of legacy which is there is now a large user base that Logos doesn't develop for. And no one gets excited about owning a program that isn't actively developed, but only maintained.

And if I understand the new pricing model correctly honestly if feels like Logos really didn't think through customer care. It sounds like we call need to buy a two year subscription to be allowed to keep features that are then frozen at a "legacy" level. I'm sure Logos will make a bunch of money off this, and I'll probably be forced to pay it because of my Logos investment, but it does not feel customer friendly to require all of those users who don't want subscriptions to pay two years worth of a subscriptions to have a legacy product. Maybe I'm missing something but that's not great marketing.

Bobby Terhune

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318891#Comment_1318891

Samuel,

1. the Legacy Fallback will include any new features developed during the next two years, It won't include any AI features or server dependent features. EXCEPT if you have the Logos 10 full feature set, you will get to keep any server dependent features for ever (kinda) they sometime sunset a feature for one reason or another.

2. Mark can't know the future and if they will continue to offer updated Legacy Fallback versions. But I would guess they probably will, to appease their customers.

Samuel, you feel as if Logos has done a disservice to you. But Logos has been dependent on servers to some degree since version 4 which was released back in October 2009. With the Logos 10 full feature set you own; you lose nothing by not subscribing. Logos will even keep your software update to current operating systems for free.

Your comment that you will have a "Frozen In Time piece of software" is just not true. if you did not upgrade your software from any other company then eventually you would be out of luck. But with Logos they promise to keep you operationally updated, and any bug fixes as well. That's quite a promise if you ask me!

Jeff Rodrigues

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318889#Comment_1318889

We are supposed to pay a two year subscription to somehow not lose certain features. But then understand that new features are only available to subscribers. So while I understand that Logos may allow users to update the core reader, they are saying that any new features and development are only for subscribers. Thus, as I said, those of us who don't want to pay a subscription or aren't interested in that model now own a very expensive library in a piece of software that is now frozen in time. So assuming Logos keeps it's promise, and I'm not saying they won't, the best case is a frozen in time piece of software with no development outside the subscription based features. Hopefully some people can understand how that feels like being locked into an eco-system where you are accommodated but clearly the company cares about other users. The very word "legacy" in the license is a term that in the software space mans an old piece of software we no longer develop or invest in but have to support because we aren't unable to get rid of it. Hardly anything that generates much interest in Logos from this point forward. I understand it's now a subscription company and I understand the business model. It just sucks to have so heavily invested in something to wake up one day and realize you are now a "legacy" customer. And developers have no interest in legacy apps. They are forced to accommodate them.

This is my perspective as well. I've spent over $6000 in Logos purchases that are tracked on Logos.com ever since 2001. In addition to that, I've also spent nearly $2000 on non Logos.com tracked purchases (CD-ROM libraries from 2001 and earlier based on the Logos version 2 software, and CD-ROM libraries after 2001 based on the Libronix version software). To have used Logos software ever since the late 1990s, and to now be required to purchase a subscription if I want new keepable features is, in my opinion, a slap in the face, and I'm not happy about this at all.

Samuel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318894#Comment_1318894

Your comment that you will have a "Frozen In Time piece of software" is just not true. if you did not upgrade your software from any other company then eventually you would be out of luck. But with Logos they promise to keep you operationally updated, and any bug fixes as well. That's quite a promise if you ask me!

It's frozen in time because "upgrade" doesn't exist any more if that makes sense. I've done a full feature upgrade for every version since 4 and I think everyone expects to pay to upgrade software. It's an option you have and when you do it it's done. Going forward it's pay the subscription but when you stop you lose anything beyond the legacy mode.I think that's a significant difference from the regular process of step-up upgrades. And there's no obvious reason for Logos to abandon that model other than business cash flow. And that is their right as a profit driven company; it just alienates some of us when it could have been a "both/and" model not an either/or. Just stinks to invest a lot to discover you're no longer a customer the business is interested in. And since this is a faith related product and difficult to migrate to other options it probably hits harder than it would for another product.

And you are right, Logos has been adding more and more internet dependent features for a long time. I've been worried for several years that Logos would decide to create a product that's really only fully functional in places where you can have constant, high speed internet. And it seems like we may have arrived at that point. But as one posted said, I guess Bob decided to make a high end product and not a general use product. Somehow I missed that years ago but it certainly makes sense of the current business strategy.

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318873#Comment_1318873

we are victims of our desire for bible software to go places, bible software has never been able to go before.

Mobile phones and tablets just don’t have the power to match the desktop, hence the need for internet access to servers that do the heavy lifting for us...

That's not actually a desire that I have. I use the mobile version on a tablet as a book reader, but that's it. I do any serious research or lesson prep on my desktop. I'm certainly not going to be doing any heavy-lifting research on my cell phone.

the same goes for the desktop, some of the cool and best features in Logos 10 need access to Logos servers that process our requests in a timely fashion.

A couple of thoughts here. Cloud-based AI services are something else that I don't actually have a desire for. Having said that, I'm not per se opposed to the targetted use of AI to make software work better. But that can be done without large cloud-based models, and in ways that improve a program's basic underlying functionality. My photo editing software has an excellent AI-based noise reduction feature that runs locally. My digital camera has AI-based subject detection and autofocus that runs in-camera and in fractions of a second (granted, it's a very new model that I spent too much on). I love all of that. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I want either my camera or my photo editing program to add cloud based AI image generation along the lines of Stable Diffusion. That sort of generative AI does need to be cloud based - but not all useful AI does.

Some people do want that, of course, and that's why Photoshop has added a generative fill feature. Adobe has also moved to a pure subscription model, and that's why I'm not using Adobe products for my photoediting.

Don't get me wrong. You're obviously excited about the new Logos features, and you're not alone. My point is simply that other users have different needs - or at least different perceptions of their needs - than you do. It's not unreasonable for us to express our needs and preferences. For myself, it increasingly feels like I'm no longer part of the audience that Logos is targeting. And that's fine - these are all business decisions that they have every right to make. When it all rolls out, users will vote with their credit cards and the folks at FaithLife will evaluate the results.

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318891#Comment_1318891

Bob Pritchet a long time ago commented on people complaining about the price of Logos and the high cost of books. He said that there were plenty of cheap or free bible software packages to take care of that market. his market was the high end of the bible software market, that could support development costs and purchase books to keep the doors open.

And I routinely get surveys asking if I would recommend Logos to others in my congregation. And just as routinely, I respond that I would not, because it's too expensive and too difficult to use. It seems clear, based on a number of comments and questions over the years, that FaithLife would like to broaden their customer base. But at the same time, they consistently seem to be making the program more and more specialized and expensive, further limiting their potential target audience.

Again, that's a business choice. For myself, I bought Logos once - on sale back almost 20 years ago. I messed around with it, then dropped it because the learning curve was just too steep. I bought a package again about 15 years ago, and powered through the learning curve that second time. But honestly, I almost gave up more than once. The only other person in the congregation who uses Logos is the preacher. There is no one - no one - else in the congregation that I would recommend it to. It's just too much - they're better served by their basic Bible apps. I've tried to introduce my spouse to Logos several times over the years, and after a few minutes of demonstrating it I'd get a polite smile and a "thanks, but that's just too complicated."

Please understand. I've bought every major upgrade since that second time I tried Logos 15 years ago, and do all of my study and lesson prep in Logos. I am a Logos supporter. But my point is that there is a downside to complexity, and companies can price themselves out of their market. Logos is so much more complex than it was 15 years ago, I believe that if I came to it as a completely new user today, I'd probably end up walking away like I did the first time. I also sometimes feel a bit guilty over how much money I've dumped into it over the years. I've justified the cost by saying that it's improved my teaching and it's an investment in the future, but still - that money could have been used for other good purposes, and might there have been other more cost effective ways to improve my lessons? And is it still an investment if FaithLife is moving in a direction that leaves me out of their target user base?

This is absolutely their business decision to make. But that fact that the decisions may be good for some users doesn't mean that they're good for all current users. Explaining why those decisions make sense for you, or for the business, doesn't change that fact.

Bobby Terhune

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318911#Comment_1318911

EastTN,

I really do care about the issues being raised, but speaking for only myself I went in eyes wide open with Logos. at the time I started with Logos I had already an investment in PC Study Bible, Pradis, Quickverse and Online Bible. All are now gone now and since then as you know we lost Bible Works and WordSearch and now I hear Accordance is in trouble. I have owned all of the programs I have mentioned, mainly because I couldn't get all the books I wanted or needed in one place.

Logos has proven to me over the years that they are trustworthy, and are doing what it takes to stay in business, and that protects yours and mine investment in them. So now all my eggs are in their basket.

The other companies did not offend anyone with new policies to maintain their profitability, they just went out of business. I glad Logos is going the other way.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318911#Comment_1318911

And I routinely get surveys asking if I would recommend Logos to others in my congregation. And just as routinely, I respond that I would not, because it's too expensive and too difficult to use. It seems clear, based on a number of comments and questions over the years, that FaithLife would like to broaden their customer base. But at the same time, they consistently seem to be making the program more and more specialized and expensive, further limiting their potential target audience.

What a great description. I'm a high-recommender. I recommend all our gadgets. Even our robot dog who digs up our driveway, and my new Apple watch. Wow ... who knew? But I wouldn't burden someone with Logos. I love it. But it'd reflect poorly on me to recommend it.

Beloved Amodeo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318916#Comment_1318916

And I routinely get surveys asking if I would recommend Logos to others in my congregation. And just as routinely, I respond that I would not, because it's too expensive and too difficult to use. It seems clear, based on a number of comments and questions over the years, that FaithLife would like to broaden their customer base. But at the same time, they consistently seem to be making the program more and more specialized and expensive, further limiting their potential target audience.

What a great description. I'm a high-recommender. I recommend all our gadgets. Even our robot dog who digs up our driveway, and my new Apple watch. Wow ... who knew? But I wouldn't burden someone with Logos. I love it. But it'd reflect poorly on me to recommend it.

For the casual student I say stay away from Logos, but for those obsessed I say pour in. I have six children to the one who pursued ministry I gifted him a Gold package he used it to obtain a Masters in Ministry and when I'm no more he will inherit my obsession Legacy license and all God willing.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318918#Comment_1318918

For the casual student I say stay away from Logos, but for those obsessed I say pour in. I have six children to the one who pursued ministry I gifted him a Gold package he used it to obtain a Masters in Ministry and when I'm no more he will inherit my obsession Legacy license and all God willing.

I agree. Indeed, my own attraction was (1) hebrew morphs/lemmas that (2) could be exported ... for neural analysis (2005 forwards). It's absolutely great software, with many 'firsts'. But everytime (not exagerating) they build for potential newbies, they just can't resist complicating the default presentation (to show off the prowess).

The other (!) thing that bugs me, is the full-on subscription for newbies headed for Logos' OL expertise. I was SO lucky (credit to Bob and Co) to load up on all my OL stuff. I'm forever amazed at what I can do, and got it on the cheap. My library/features far surpass the library at the Bible college I attended many moons back.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318926#Comment_1318926

for neural analysis

You noticed neural nerds captured a Nobel!!

Mike Childs

Samuel,

I agree with much of what you say. However, I have been a Logos customer from the early 1990's, and i have purchased over 9,800 resources from Logos over the decades. Most of them are premium resources, such as the New International OT and NT commentaries, Word Biblical Commentaries, the ICC, original language tools, and on and on. So, I have a significant investment in Logos.

I have no intention of subscribing to Logos. And I believe that I am not alone in that.

We need to realize that only a small per cent of Logos users ever post or read the forums. So, posts in the forum are no measure of how successful or unsuccessful subscription Bible software will be. My speculation about that is only a speculation.

I seriously doubt that you need to worry about losing the usefulness of your software. I think this because I seriously doubt that Logos wants to lose people like you and me as customers. I am sure Logos will continue to want to sell us books.

My guess (and that is all that it is, a guess) is that some 40 to 60% of Logos customers will buy some form of a subscription. I would be surprised if the per cent was higher. I hope Logos will have the integrity to post the per cent of their customer base that subscribes.

I have been a loyal Logos customer for more than 40 years. I have never lost a book that I bought from Logos. I don't expect to do so now. I just believe that Logos will want to continue to serve non-subscription customers. If they do not, so be it.

I haven't had much interest in new features in Logos updates for over a decade now. It is the books that I want.

Mike Childs

Samuel,

I have no intention of subscribing to Logos. And I believe that I am not alone in that.

My guess (and that is all that it is, a guess) is that some 40 to 60% of Logos customers will buy some form of a subscription. I would be surprised if the per cent was higher. I would not be surprised it the per cent was lower. I hope Logos will have the integrity to post the per cent of their customer base that subscribes.

I haven't had much interest in new features in Logos updates for over a decade now. It is the books that I want.

MWW

Honestly for the first time I feel really stupid for how much I've invested in Logos.

For me, it is just the opposite. I have invested a sizable sum of money over the years in building up my Logos resource library. With the advanced AI search and summary capabilities that Logos now provides its users with, I can now fully benefit from the library that I have constructed.

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318934#Comment_1318934

And I am the just opposite of you.

Any summary will be interpretive. I don't like condensed books. Summaries have no appeal to me. Is there going to be an Arminian AI, a Calvinist AI, a Pentecostal AI?

One of the reasons that I went to seminary was so that I would know which resources to trust.

charlie

I was very upset when they first announced they were going to a subscription model, but after a bit of digging, I am no longer upset at all. I had most of the same concerns as you, but they actually don't apply to what Logos is doing.

You can continue to buy books in the current package you have and never upgrade, and this will continue to work for years to come, without issue. If you like the logos features you currently have, keep them forever and don't upgrade anymore. I don't see why it being a legacy upgrade is now a negative for you.

To explain it another way...

In the past, you had to pay for the upgrades upfront every two years, and this was a huge investment. What we do now however is pay for the subscription over two years, and then we keep the full package(minus cloud features), just like we did before when purchasing it all at once.

I bought a one-year subscription and will do the same in one year, so basically, my big purchase every two years is divided into two purchases. Other than that, nothing is changing except new innovations.

As far as people in sensitive countries, that is me. I live and serve in one of these nations, the one that you first think of. It is not a big deal and I use Logos 11 daily.

charlie

To explain it another way...

As far as people in sensitive countries, that is me. I live and serve in one of these nations, the one that you first think of. It is not a big deal and I use Logos 11 daily.

charlie

To explain it another way...

As far as people in sensitive countries, that is me. I live and serve in one of these nations, the one that you first think of. It is not a big deal and I use Logos 11 daily.

charlie

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318931#Comment_1318931

If your main desire in Logos is the books and not the features, then it makes no sense for you to subscribe. I am very excited about the features in Logos 11 though and am already using them daily. I can find books for cheaper elsewhere, what brings me to logos is the features.

My observations though is that the split between subscribers and non-subscribers will most likely be split largely amongst generational lines. I am only 32, and love the new AI features. I don't think older customers care nearly as much about these innovations though because you have your way of studying that you have had for decades, and that makes complete sense to me. I suspect I will be the same way in ten to twenty years.

Aaron Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318884#Comment_1318884

I have tried to talk myself into giving them at least one chance with the new format of business - but I do NOT want to be forced into changing my study flow and lose efficient function for the sake of fluff that comes with the Dynamic Toolbar....

I am finding the Dynamic Toolbar to be very useful in my workflow.

MWW

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318935#Comment_1318935

And I am the just opposite of you.

Any summary will be interpretive. I don't like condensed books. Summaries have no appeal to me. Is there going to be an Arminian AI, a Calvinist AI, a Pentecostal AI?

One of the reasons that I went to seminary was so that I would know which resources to trust.

Have you tried using the AI search capabilities on your books?

The AI search reports which resources are being cited and provides a summary of the article or chapter being referenced. I know exactly where the information is coming from and because I have tagged my library, I can choose to search only my Reformed, or Arminian, or Charismatic, or Covenant, or Dispensational, or Eschatological resources. The summary gives me a quick idea regarding my inquiry and whether a particular resource addresses it or not and then at a mouse click I can open the resource. It is far more powerful than simply using Logos search fields and parameters.

Samuel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318932#Comment_1318932

Samuel,

I agree with much of what you say. However, I have been a Logos customer from the early 1990's, and i have purchased over 9,800 resources from Logos over the decades. Most of them are premium resources, such as the New International OT and NT commentaries, Word Biblical Commentaries, the ICC, original language tools, and on and on. So, I have a significant investment in Logos.

I have no intention of subscribing to Logos. And I believe that I am not alone in that.

It sounds like we have a similar investment and probably use the program in similar ways. I'm not sure what Logos business model will be going forward - this makes me nervous their approach will move more towards renting a library via subscription instead of owning books and those of us who own key resources will be "legacy" where new books are included in subscriptions but not sale. But we will see. Right now I'm obviously not in the mood to buy more books from Logos...

And I completely understand AI driven features and a subscription model around certain kinds of features. I'm sure there are some amazing new ways to use the Bible. I have had research ideas that AI would make much more possible than in the past. I can see amazing new research being possible with AI models in general using Logos and outside Logos with other AI models. I just wish Logos had accommodated all their users. I think there could easily have been a "both/and" or "win/win" for customers like me instead of choosing one kind of customer. For sure Logos will limit their user base going forward but business wise maybe it will work out well for Logos.

Simon’s Brother

For me I have no regrets in the money I have invested in Logos. I started out with QuickVerse. I‘ve tried a few others over the years, paid and free and none of them compare with Logos. As I said no regrets. Subscription is a loaded word for a lot of people but for me it’s just another word for the way I pay for my software upgrades so the employees can make a living while I enjoy the fruit of their labour and helps ensures the company remains an ongoing entity.

I respect some people will choose not to take up a subscription and that is their choice. As for me it’s business as usual with no regrets or fears about future unknowns that may never happen. I have invested a lot more in Logos than what most have mentioned here but material (including electronic) possessions are not where I put my faith.

Tes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318952#Comment_1318952

For me I have no regrets in the money I have invested in Logos. I started out with QuickVerse.

I agree with you. I started with Quickverse, then Biblesoft, which I lost my resources to, perhaps due to the bankruptcy of the company after that Bible search. You can never compare them with Logos. I am very happy with Logos.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318942#Comment_1318942

I have tried to talk myself into giving them at least one chance with the new format of business - but I do NOT want to be forced into changing my study flow and lose efficient function for the sake of fluff that comes with the Dynamic Toolbar....

I am finding the Dynamic Toolbar to be very useful in my workflow.

I'm glad it works for you, I'm sure many will like it. Based on some other opinions listed here and the times I've tested it on the web app - it will not for me. I do not want more clicks and to need to relearn where some Logos developer decides to bury a command. This is why I will keep recommending that an option is made available - those who love the Dynamic can use it - those who prefer the classic can use it and Logos would be reaching the most users with the content they would use.

As of now, I'm already skeptical of forcing a subscription model on the customer base as the only way to have a future with Logos - but now forcing long time users to change the way they study and for many who have commented, in a way that makes it less efficient is NOT an improvement.

Hopefully they are listening and keep the toolbar as an option

Joseph Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318947#Comment_1318947

this makes me nervous their approach will move more towards renting a library via subscription instead of owning books and those of us who own key resources will be "legacy" where new books are included in subscriptions but not sale.

I'm not sure that you're understanding the "legacy" aspect of the subscription plan. The legacy license doesn't refer to being stuck with only what you have at this point, but will continue to include new features released in the future for which someone has paid a two year subscription. The only features not included will be the AI features which require internet.

Ultimately, if you choose to just pre-pay for a 2 year subscription, then you would be functionally upgrading like you have every other upgrade cycle and own the features, with again the exception of the AI features, which you don't seem to really be concerned with anyway. Every other two year upgrade cycle you have paid a lump sum and gotten all new features. You can still do that under the new subscription plan.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding your concerns.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318928#Comment_1318928

for neural analysis

You noticed neural nerds captured a Nobel!!

And certainly deserved! But I suspect (like explosives; Nobel), folks aren't quite sure 'what's next'!

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318970#Comment_1318970

I'm not sure that you're understanding the "legacy" aspect of the subscription plan. The legacy license doesn't refer to being stuck with only what you have at this point, but will continue to include new features released in the future for which someone has paid a two year subscription. The only features not included will be the AI features which require internet.

I think (guessing of course) that 'legacy' will be as Samuel imagines. A group of earlier customers that were ceded some benefit for their early participation (quid pro quo being a package checkoff, and a continued payment).

But past 2 years, I have my doubts. By that time, the apps will be all mucked up (app internals, a series of switches that may or may not coordinate correctly and the UI??). Multiply by type of device and bugs galore. And by that time, the PE's can see some type of track-record on success .... more change needed.

In my mind, 'legacy' is a 2-year compromise.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318943#Comment_1318943

I know exactly where the information is coming from and because I have tagged my library, I can choose to search only my Reformed, or Arminian, or Charismatic, or Covenant, or Dispensational, or Eschatological resources.

I think you're illustrating the value of the summaries, etc. I'm reluctant to apply the abbreviation 'AI'. My library is tagged by good reasoning, and data, vs fluff and terrible logic. The summary would not know the difference. It would know the world of label assignment (modern theology).

But like Mike, I insist on knowing my books. Those little yellow books in college to help avoid actually reading the book; not needed.

Fabian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318973#Comment_1318973

for neural analysis

You noticed neural nerds captured a Nobel!!

And certainly deserved! But I suspect (like explosives; Nobel), folks aren't quite sure 'what's next'!

[Y]

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318914#Comment_1318914

The other companies did not offend anyone with new policies to maintain their profitability, they just went out of business. I glad Logos is going the other way.

And I hope it works for them - I have no desire to see Logos go out of business. I don't think that it's a stark binary choice, though - offend customers with new policies, or go out of business. It really wouldn't take much to keep me as a customer, and there are several ways they could do it. Offering a one-time purchase at a somewhat higher price or offering a non-subscription version that doesn't include the cloud-based AI features would do it. Or something else that I haven't thought of.

All of my eggs are pretty much in their basket too (though I do have a lot of resources both in paper and on Kindle). But I'm not a full-time academic, and I'm not currently in full-time ministry. I don't have to have Logos. I suspect I'm not the only one who can say that.

All I can say is that I recently decided to move away from the industry standard software in another field because they moved to a pure subscription model, and paid more for a competing product that is more limited because I could do a one-time purchase. The funny thing is that I've already upgraded it once. But I'm not locked into an ongoing subscription, which is becoming increasingly important to me as I approach retirement.

John Fidel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318998#Comment_1318998

EastTN,

I mean this in the kindest way, if they offered a purchase price of say $189 for all the non-AI features, but would also allow you to use the AI features for 2 years, would that be of interest? Maybe if they offered 3 different tiers for study group leaders, pastors and original language at different prices, similar to Bronze, Silver and Gold in the past?

How is that any different from paying the 2 year subscription price and getting the same thing? Logos tried to figure out a way to allow for "ownership" of non-AI features by allowing ownership of those features with a 2 year subscription. To me, and I may be missing something, it is the same thing as a "purchase option" for non-AI features.

You would normally purchase a new feature set every two years or just keep what you have if you are not interested in upgrading. Similarly, you can choose to continue the subscription or just opt out.

Please advise me on what I am missing.

Joseph Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1319000#Comment_1319000

EastTN,

I mean this in the kindest way, if they offered a purchase price of say $189 for all the non-AI features, but would also allow you to use the AI features for 2 years, would that be of interest? Maybe if they offered 3 different tiers for study group leaders, pastors and original language at different prices, similar to Bronze, Silver and Gold in the past?

How is that any different from paying the 2 year subscription price and getting the same thing? Logos tried to figure out a way to allow for "ownership" of non-AI features by allowing ownership of those features with a 2 year subscription. To me, and I may be missing something, it is the same thing as a "purchase option" for non-AI features.

You would normally purchase a new feature set every two years or just keep what you have if you are not interested in upgrading. Similarly, you can choose to continue the subscription or just opt out.

Please advise me on what I am missing.

This was my point, and as far as I know, they are indeed planning to offer a two year plan.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1319001#Comment_1319001

Can't speak for EastTN but the difference for me is the pig-in-a-poke problem. Previously, you decided if worth the money. Now you just fork-over and hope.

And yes, even FL is clueless about the poke.

John Fidel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1319004#Comment_1319004

Can't speak for EastTN but the difference for me is the pig-in-a-poke problem. Previously, you decided if worth the money. Now you just fork-over and hope.

And yes, even FL is clueless about the poke.

if I recall you don’t purchase feature sets and not sure I follow you analogy but it probably me being dense.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1319006#Comment_1319006

Pig-in-a-poke means unknown trade ... in the past, I've known what the offered features were ... and didn't like/need, for the last 2 cycles. Earlier features (full upgrade) were great. But I could see the offer. You're suggesting hand over the money and hope. Big difference.

John Fidel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1319007#Comment_1319007

Got it. valid point.

Rick Ausdahl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318970#Comment_1318970

I'm not sure that you're understanding the "legacy" aspect of the subscription plan. The legacy license doesn't refer to being stuck with only what you have at this point, but will continue to include new features released in the future for which someone has paid a two year subscription. The only features not included will be the AI features which require internet.

Ultimately, if you choose to just pre-pay for a 2 year subscription, then you would be functionally upgrading like you have every other upgrade cycle and own the features, with again the exception of the AI features, which you don't seem to really be concerned with anyway. Every other two year upgrade cycle you have paid a lump sum and gotten all new features. You can still do that under the new subscription plan.

The statement I highlighted in bold is the primary reason I don't think I will be able to continue recommending Logos to new customers who have never owned a Logos feature set--customers looking at Logos for the first time after Logos goes subscription only. As I understand it, those new customers who come aboard after Logos goes subscription only, will NOT own any features, regardless of how they pay (by month, annually, or two years up front), nor will it matter how many years they have been subscribing. Yes, they will own their resources, and will be able to read them, but if they stop subscribing, reading their resources is all they'll be able to do.
If I'm mistaken, I would truly appreciate being pointed to an official statement from Logos/Faithlife to the contrary.

Fabian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318967#Comment_1318967

I have tried to talk myself into giving them at least one chance with the new format of business - but I do NOT want to be forced into changing my study flow and lose efficient function for the sake of fluff that comes with the Dynamic Toolbar....

I am finding the Dynamic Toolbar to be very useful in my workflow.

I'm glad it works for you, I'm sure many will like it. Based on some other opinions listed here and the times I've tested it on the web app - it will not for me. I do not want more clicks and to need to relearn where some Logos developer decides to bury a command. This is why I will keep recommending that an option is made available - those who love the Dynamic can use it - those who prefer the classic can use it and Logos would be reaching the most users with the content they would use.

As of now, I'm already skeptical of forcing a subscription model on the customer base as the only way to have a future with Logos - but now forcing long time users to change the way they study and for many who have commented, in a way that makes it less efficient is NOT an improvement.

Hopefully they are listening and keep the toolbar as an option

Yes please, bring it as an option.

In general if I compare the Accordance preferences and the Logos preferences. Logos is way behind. You can in Accordance much more manipulate. Speed adjustments of Read Aloud (recently requested in the forum), old / new interface, Keyboard-Shortcuts (Recently discussed on the German Forum), and much more ....

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1319014#Comment_1319014

If I'm mistaken, I would truly appreciate being pointed to an official statement from Logos/Faithlife to the contrary.

I think correct. The new Logosian will want videos for learning, and then be presented with subscribe-only features examples. It won't be pretty.

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1319019#Comment_1319019

The new Logosian will want videos for learning, and then be presented with subscribe-only features examples. It won't be pretty.

Agreed. I think they are betting on the car-lease mentality...meaning a significant number of people can't do math and will lease a car despite the terrible long-term investment realities for most situations. This will indeed increase revenue for the company, though.

For those that are young enough to care nothing about long-term investment, I think the subscription model will make sense.

Samuel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1318970#Comment_1318970

I'm not sure that you're understanding the "legacy" aspect of the subscription plan. The legacy license doesn't refer to being stuck with only what you have at this point, but will continue to include new features released in the future for which someone has paid a two year subscription. The only features not included will be the AI features which require internet.

What you are saying illustrates some of my confusion why Logos decided to do an "all or nothing" approach. They could have easily continued to offer Logos as a periodic upgrade for those who decided to purchase features and then offer AI based features as a subscription. This would have been a win/win though my guess is that Logos thought forcing the subscription model would be more profitable. And they probably only want to manage one set of features.

I would say it's different from a few reasons:

New accounts are subscription only - this tells you that all of us are being accommodated. That clearly indicates they are trying to placate some existing customers that don't want a subscription product. But the fact that it is now a subscription product means it will slowly move away from those of us who didn't buy Logos to be a subscription. If the product isn't frozen now (feature wise) it will be soon.

I am sure Logos will sell a lot of two year subscriptions initially from people who are trying to secure the "legacy" license but as far as I know this is a one time deal that seems to be clearly designed to try to get people on a subscription they hopefully won't cancel. So maybe it's not a legacy app with frozen features today, but the best case scenario is that it is in two years. And the whole idea of the legacy license is that if we don't take advantage of this special deal and don't keep paying a subscription we lose features new features so again it's an accommodation to help Logos transition to a different app and a different app model. One that myself and others didn't want but are now stuck with.

While it may work out similarly dollar wise, depending on what a person buys, to a regular habit of upgrading it's very different because we pay up front not knowing what we pay for and we can then keep these unknown features only if we pay a set price for two years for features we may or may not even benefit from. And if we stop the subscription after the two years then we end up with a frozen product. So honestly the writing is on the wall for all of us who don't want a subscription product.

It seems it could have been very simple for Logos to offer a subscription for AI features and even unreleased features and do a point release every two years where people could chose an upgrade as in the past. But we'll see what happens. It's just sad that Accordance isn't in great shape at the moment. Perhaps this will create a market for people that want fast, linked texts in a straightforward Bible software we can buy and not "rent." But I don't have high hopes.

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1319171#Comment_1319171

On the other hand (and there is one), think back 2, 4, 6 years. Are you glad now that you have all the stuff you bought along the way?

There have been some pretty good pigs in those pokes. Maybe we will also discover some fine swine in subscriptions to come. Think of yourself as Indiana Jones. Take a chance. Perhaps in just two short years we will find that the swine we expected in a poke have been cast into outer darkness, and we stand dazzled by a glimmering lost ark!

In other words. It could be worse than we hope, but it also might be better than we imagine. Logos has a pretty solid history. Since the inevitable is upon us, and it's not all that bad, and might be quite good; I am going to take a deep breath and forge forward with things that matter.