Confusion between old and new style of resource toolbar
I just read the description of the October update at https://www.logos.com/grow/release-october-2024/. I was shocked to discover that it says that the dynamic toolbar is only available to subscribers to Premium and up.
This is a nightmare. No wonder my Hermeneutics students are confused! Some students have the old style of toolbar and others have the new one. Many videos for my online classes are no longer valid, because some of the basic commands are not in the same location in Logos. We now have chaos right as students are working on a major word study research paper.
I get the concept of the dynamic toolbar. But I strongly believe that all users should have a consistent user interface. If a user has Logos basic or an older paid version of Logos, they should have a subset of the possible features on the dynamic toolbar. If a user has a subscription with upgraded features, additional commands would be available on the dynamic toolbar, just like some users have more tags in the Context menu. But all users should have a minimal set of the commands in the resource toolbar and the commands should be in the same location, regardless of the feature set or subscription level.
Comments
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Also, with the current situation with two styles of toolbars, the Help document does not correctly describe the actual toolbar if a user has either the free version of Logos or an older paid base package. The help describes the toolbar that a paid subscriber would see. This does not make the "help" very helpful.
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Harry Hahne said:
This is a nightmare. No wonder my Hermeneutics students are confused! Some students have the old style of toolbar and others have the new one. Many videos for my online classes are no longer valid, because some of the basic commands are not in the same location in Logos. We now have chaos right as students are working on a major word study research paper.
I get the concept of the dynamic toolbar. But I strongly believe that all users should have a consistent user interface. If a user has Logos basic or an older paid version of Logos, they should have a subset of the possible features on the dynamic toolbar. If a user has a subscription with upgraded features, additional commands would be available on the dynamic toolbar, just like some users have more tags in the Context menu. But all users should have a minimal set of the commands in the resource toolbar and the commands should be in the same location, regardless of the feature set or subscription level.
Im not 100% sure, but I think I might have been the first person to realize the problems they were planning on creating 😎
In this thread I was the first person to point out what a bad idea it was. My comments were of course, ignored.
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/224537/1310159.aspx#1310159
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John said:
I think I might have been the first person to realize the problems they were planning on creating 😎
I suspect I realized the problem before you posted. But I took the nonhelpful approach of waiting until a professor complained ... there are some topics I'm not effective in communicating to Logos how flawed their approach is.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Harry Hahne said:
Also, with the current situation with two styles of toolbars, the Help document does not correctly describe the actual toolbar if a user has either the free version of Logos or an older paid base package. The help describes the toolbar that a paid subscriber would see. This does not make the "help" very helpful.
Three possible solutions:
1. Have everyone in the class unsubscribe.
2. Have everyone in the class downgrade to version 36.1 and prevent updates.
3. Have everyone in the class subscribe and update to latest version (this is the one Logos would like)
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Harry Hahne said:
I get the concept of the dynamic toolbar. But I strongly believe that all users should have a consistent user interface.
I agree on your points. The obvious answer was when they trotted out the optional-placement top/left menu bar ... the option would be subscribed. But even that wouldn't fit in a classroom. If they did force-thru the new toolbar, I'd have to shut off app updates ... the bar isn't a go with a tight efficient layout.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I think they need to provide an option to return to the old toolbar for users that do not want it or for professors/student such as this.
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John Fidel said:
I think they need to provide an option to return to the old toolbar for users that do not want it or for professors/student such as this.
Please vote to allow each user to select their toolbar of choice.
https://feedback.logos.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/add-a-toolbar-choice
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Harry Hahne said:
I just read the description of the October update at https://www.logos.com/grow/release-october-2024/. I was shocked to discover that it says that the dynamic toolbar is only available to subscribers to Premium and up.
This is a nightmare. No wonder my Hermeneutics students are confused! Some students have the old style of toolbar and others have the new one. Many videos for my online classes are no longer valid, because some of the basic commands are not in the same location in Logos. We now have chaos right as students are working on a major word study research paper.
I get the concept of the dynamic toolbar. But I strongly believe that all users should have a consistent user interface. If a user has Logos basic or an older paid version of Logos, they should have a subset of the possible features on the dynamic toolbar. If a user has a subscription with upgraded features, additional commands would be available on the dynamic toolbar, just like some users have more tags in the Context menu. But all users should have a minimal set of the commands in the resource toolbar and the commands should be in the same location, regardless of the feature set or subscription level.
There are a number of users who do NOT want the Dynamic Toolbar and IMHO - it should not be forced on said users because new users and some who have decided to upgrade use it and it may be impacting some continuity in classes. As someone who has been an unpaid presenter of Logos, done plenty of training for it in a classroom setting - I would personally rather volunteer my time to train on both options, than force the users who do not want it, to have to change their workflows, layouts and study time to appease continuity, not to mention the current inefficiency... My view may change, if the developers recognize the inefficiency and fix it with a choice of toolbars, functioning single click buttons or both... IMHO, forcing keyboard shortcuts is also not the definitive answer, as some have dexterity issues that make that as or more difficult than the waste of time extra clicking to accomplish the same tasks that the original toolbar does perfectly.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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DMB said:
If they did force-thru the new toolbar, I'd have to shut off app updates ... the bar isn't a go with a tight efficient layout.
As someone who consistently uses multi resource and multi guide layouts - this is FACT.... It is more tolerable outside the wasted time on clicks to access tools with a wide screen resource panel layout - for those of us who use our screen space to not have to click through tab after tab, thus having tighter resource tab views - the Dynamic Toolbar is not a go!
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Harry Hahne said:
This is a nightmare.
Wow. I've been a prof for 33 years, and this didn't cross my mind as an unintended consequence until you mentioned it. Obviously, it didn't cross anyone's mind at Logos, either.
This is even worse than some of the unnecessary edition changes I've experienced with publishers in the past (like switching the order of chapters without updating any content to make old editions obsolete).
I wish I had a creative solution for you, but this one lands wholly in Logos' lap.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:
Wow. I've been a prof for 33 years, and this didn't cross my mind as an unintended consequence until you mentioned it.
i noticed the effect on teaching as well as introducing new people to Logos - the old resource toolbar is not a selling point and is a foolish choice to present to potential customers. In a parish setting the differences between desktop-web-mobile is a sufficient complication without adding another layer to it.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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The Web app uses the new resource toolbar, even for free accounts. It gracefully degrades to include only those features available to the user. The Web app has the consistency I want to see in the Desktop app. All users should have the same basic UI, regardless of feature set or subscription.
I cannot believe that FL would want to maintain two separate code bases for two types of toolbars. This creates an unnecessary headache for FL programmers and support staff.
I don't love the new resource toolbar. It creates a cluttered display compared to the simplicity of icons. It is more of a menu system than a Toolbar. Since I have a lot of resources open, I have to click on More a lot to get basic functions. But I will live with it, as long as there is consistency for all users.
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Harry Hahne said:
I don't love the new resource toolbar. It creates a cluttered display compared to the simplicity of icons. It is more of a menu system than a Toolbar. Since I have a lot of resources open, I have to click on More a lot to get basic functions. But I will live with it, as long as there is consistency for all users.
If they would unite the UI look of the Dynamic, but the function and efficiency of the Classic - I'd say the single option would work (And, I'd personally even give the LFL a chance to impress - but I could care less about the "look", if the function is a failure)
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:DMB said:
If they did force-thru the new toolbar, I'd have to shut off app updates ... the bar isn't a go with a tight efficient layout.
As someone who consistently uses multi resource and multi guide layouts - this is FACT.... It is more tolerable outside the wasted time on clicks to access tools with a wide screen resource panel layout - for those of us who use our screen space to not have to click through tab after tab, thus having tighter resource tab views - the Dynamic Toolbar is not a go!
For reference - my resource heavy Desktop with Classic Toolbar has easy and EFFICIENT access to all the tools
Though the Web App limits me from recreating the exact layout, the more intensive a layout the less efficient the Dynamic, due to the need of screen space to access everything
Losing screen space and efficiency is not what I would personally call an improvement - I will again say, the look is really nice, but not worthy of the concessions needed to achieve it.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
the more intensive a layout the less efficient the Dynamic, due to the need of screen space to access everything
I agree. The clean simplicity of the single row of small icons saved a lot of screen space. Anyone using Logos on a laptop or with a complicated layout appreciates saving screen real estate.
I understand, however, that one of the goals was to remove features from the panel menu, because many users didn't even know that they were there.
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Frank Sauer said:
Losing screen space and efficiency is not what I would personally call an improvement
Unfortunately, those are not the only factors the UI designer takes into consideration. If I were to make a guess, I would say that discoverability of features was a highly weighted consideration. Efficiency is too broad a category for me to guess how you would measure it, so I can't comment on it. Loss of space is common but no necessary depending upon the state the user leaves it in; I know that had I been designing it I would have underestimated significantly the degree to which users toggle things on and off - I tend to choose a status for a task and leave it. I suspect that the Logos designers made the same mistake.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Unfortunately, those are not the only factors the UI designer takes into consideration. If I were to make a guess, I would say that discoverability of features was a highly weighted consideration.
I think I understand the point you're trying to make here - however, my counterpoint would be that Icons with hover over identifiers leads to an easier discoverability than having to dig through menus and multiple clicks...
MJ. Smith said:Efficiency is too broad a category for me to guess how you would measure it, so I can't comment on it.
Specifically the loss of single click toggle on/off and everything fitting on the toolbar without the need for a "More" button
MJ. Smith said:Loss of space is common but no necessary depending upon the state the user leaves it in;
This is can be true, but leads to some users having to forsake their preferred Layouts to make up for the underestimation of the developers...
MJ. Smith said:I tend to choose a status for a task and leave it.
For the most part, the same applies for me - but when I'd like to make a change, I do not want to have to use 8 clicks for what has only taken 2
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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I will add one thing, probably unpopular, but it should be said...
I was one of the folks who DID NOT LIKE the toolbar when I first worked with it. But that only lasted about five or ten minutes. Then the new toolbar started to make sense and I began liking (most of) it.
Yes, there are most certainly more clicks to do some tasks that were one-click on the old toolbar; for example, toggling the interlinear. But I've been a Logos user since L3, and I've already discovered one or two menu functions that have been there for years but I didn't know about them...and I found them while trying to learn the new toolbar.
My gentle advice is, give it a little time...long enough to break a few old habits, and see how it goes. By all means, continue to request needed fixes and point out missing or non-intuitive actions (I suspect Logos appreciates feedback like that). But don't give up too easily...there'll be a learning curve (isn't there always with Logos, LOL?), but once you set new habits, I think many of you will change your mind like I have about the utility of the new arrangement. Tight layouts can be tweaked to work better with the new toolbar. Old habits can change with a few repetitions. Keyboard shortcuts (at least, promised ones!!) can be learned to reduce clicks.
YMMV as always...but give it a try.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:
I was one of the folks who DID NOT LIKE the toolbar when I first worked with it. But that only lasted about five or ten minutes. Then the new toolbar started to make sense and I began liking (most of) it.
There are some like yourself who have found appreciation with the new toolbar after not appreciating it at the start - then there are those of us who have been giving it a lot of chance, but do not find value in it.
Doc B said:Yes, there are most certainly more clicks to do some tasks that were one-click on the old toolbar; for example, toggling the interlinear. But I've been a Logos user since L3, and I've already discovered one or two menu functions that have been there for years but I didn't know about them...and I found them while trying to learn the new toolbar.
Another YMMV experience, as my personal experience is that of someone who always found the tools under the already present navigation options...
Doc B said:My gentle advice is, give it a little time...long enough to break a few old habits, and see how it goes. By all means, continue to request needed fixes and point out missing or non-intuitive actions (I suspect Logos appreciates feedback like that). But don't give up too easily...there'll be a learning curve (isn't there always with Logos, LOL?), but once you set new habits, I think many of you will change your mind like I have about the utility of the new arrangement. Tight layouts can be tweaked to work better with the new toolbar. Old habits can change with a few repetitions.
I appreciate your intent, but how is their value in a user having to completely transform their workflows and layouts to a more simple form, due to a failure to recognize the issues prior to releasing the Dynamic Toolbar? After all, the "Power User" aspect of Logos was a strong selling point at one time, now they want to pretty it up and we have to give up the Layouts that we find the most efficient and powerful for our study time? They may as well take away the ability to customize your own layouts and go the route of the Web App with preset formats....
Doc B said:Keyboard shortcuts (at least, promised ones!!) can be learned to reduce clicks.
Again, not everyone benefits from keyboard commands - dexterity is an easy for some....
Maybe it is just me - but if users have to jump through all the hoops that those who love the Dynamic Toolbar suggest, just to be able to do what we have been able to do with ease and efficiency - that tells me it is not the users that are the problem - it is the feature!
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
there are those of us who have been giving it a lot of chance, but do not find value in it.
That's understandable, and I don't discount it.
There are other aspects where I feel your pain, Frank. This particular one seemed to go in my favor. I hope it will for others and I hope there's a solution for you and others like you for whom it hasn't gone in your favor. [Y]
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:Frank Sauer said:
there are those of us who have been giving it a lot of chance, but do not find value in it.
That's understandable, and I don't discount it.
There are other aspects where I feel your pain, Frank. This particular one seemed to go in my favor. I hope it will for others and I hope there's a solution for you and others like you for whom it hasn't gone in your favor.
I appreciate it! It would be nice to be able to give the LFL a chance to impress, but I don't see it happening without a toolbar option or drastic improvement to the Dynamic Toolbar that improves efficiency and allows me to keep my preferred Layouts without need for tweaking due to its limitations. Also, sadly, do not see myself doing any further presentations of the product, having cancelled or declined a few recently... I can't present something that I don't know that I can honestly recommend as I once had....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
now they want to pretty it up and we have to give up the Layouts that we find the most efficient and powerful for our study time?
Don't believe I have needed to alter any layout because of the new toolbar.
Frank Sauer said:They may as well take away the ability to customize your own layouts and go the route of the Web App with preset formats.
? Why would that be necessary?
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Jack Caviness said:Frank Sauer said:
now they want to pretty it up and we have to give up the Layouts that we find the most efficient and powerful for our study time?
Don't believe I have needed to alter any layout because of the new toolbar.
Frank Sauer said:They may as well take away the ability to customize your own layouts and go the route of the Web App with preset formats.
? Why would that be necessary?
Depending on your layout, the new toolbar adds a 'More' menu when there is not enough width within the resource. Adding another click to get to the menu options hidden under more.
For full access to the Menu options on the Dynamic Toolbar, my personal preference for the best layout I use, would require that I eliminate a section of the layout or hide said section as a tab to click on, rather than as part of the view.
The second comment was tongue in cheek
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Harry Hahne said:
This is a nightmare. No wonder my Hermeneutics students are confused! Some students have the old style of toolbar and others have the new one. Many videos for my online classes are no longer valid, because some of the basic commands are not in the same location in Logos. We now have chaos right as students are working on a major word study research paper.
In the beta phase we brought this up, and we asserted that two versions of the base level UI would be a nightmare, I don’t think we thought of the classroom setting, but rather we were fussing about documentation, training videos, community support, etc. So yes, let’s now add classroom to the list.
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Jack Caviness said:
Why would that be necessary?
Mostly screen size, Jack. I've had to alter a few on my laptop (a 14") from stacked to side-by-side. It hasn't been a deal-breaker for me but I can understand why some might not like it.
On the plus side, it made me clean up a few layouts which had grown with some unneeded books showing. Being forced to adjust got me to "clean my room," as Jordan Peterson would say. [:)]
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:Jack Caviness said:
Why would that be necessary?
Mostly screen size, Jack. I've had to alter a few on my laptop (a 14") from stacked to side-by-side. It hasn't been a deal-breaker for me but I can understand why some might not like it.
That makes sense; guess my setup blinds me to some other users' problems.
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