Help me not RETURN my Logos Platinum 4 - TERRIBLE download/design experience so far.
Third post. Paid for Logos Platinum 4, attempting install on a
fresh/brand new Win 7 ultimate machine with 2.66 Ghz and 6 Gb Ram.
I'm not sure if there are any other install landmines but would
appreciate knowing about them from forum readers. I know about the
dozen hoursof indexing but that can be paused for 4 hours at a stretch. Anything else I should know?
Here are some initial points:
1.
Sales person said he could download in 2 hours. Even assuming a faster
connection and perhaps sales talk to put the software in the best
light, I would assume that my cable speed would be fine.
2. Almost $1700 retail software.
3. Must get the latest version via web download because a DVD install will still incur an extended 'update'.
4. Software, per my understanding, is 'forward' looking, designed with cutting edge capabilities.
5.
Pre-sales and sales conversations were excellent even when they were
extended to make sure that I covered the bases. I even received
multiple e-mails that were helpful in answering many questions about
features and the purchase process. I assumed that tech support would
at least come close to the pre-sales and sales experience.
The
sales person seemed to try to preempt some install issues by forwarding
me some instructions. This seemed unusual since install of software is
generally a very straightforward experience - even complicated software
such as high end video editing or other multi-gigabyte Bible software.
My experience:
1. Download. Starting last night after I stopped work, I saw 34% completion after 6 1/2 hours this morning.
I
have to have quick web access during the day including a 2 hours videoconference. Downloading took up too much bandwidth so I have to pause
it while I get work done on the web.
Surely there's a PAUSE button for download somewhere. Even
freeware allows me to do that via Firefox, let alone a $1700
software. Where is it?
2. Called level 1 tech support who
told me that there's NO Pause & that if I cancel download, I loose
everything and I will have to restart.
I mentioned that I'm
leaving on an extended trip in a couple of days and probably should
just ask for a refund, the tech then said, 'Wait, let me check'. After
a few minutes on hold, I was told that I could cancel and actual on the
next restart, will continue the download from the point that I
cancelled.
3. A few hours later, I attempted to restart by
clicking the 'Logos4Setup.exe' which was on the download box. Told
that I was up to date and nothing to download?
4. Called tech
support again. Upgraded me to level 2 Tech support. 40 (that's FORTY)
minutes wait time. (And the same announcement looping over and over
again) Very different from my pre-sales and sales experience.
Walked
me through how to restart download. Realized that with my FIRST tech
support call this morning, I should have received download
instructions. No communication there.
5. Currently still
downloading - it will probably take not 2 hours but probably over 15
hours to download via Cable connection. Level 2 tech support confirmed
that my download time is normal so this is quite different from
pre-sales conversation.
Additional Issues
1.
Provided DVD for Logos 4 is version 4.0A? Not even 4.0 B let alone
4.0C? I understand that Logos 4 is continually being improved but that
does NOT preclude burning something a bit more recent. There have been
many months since 4.0A.
2. No instructions came with the DVD. No print of any type. This
is not just poor communication with the DVD, but NO communication.
3. The provided DVD for Logos 4 is specifically NOT recommended
by tech support to use. After the install using the DVD, the software
will still need to go ONLINE and download hours of update. So the
initial install with the DVD is a WASTE of client's time, & set up
a frustrating experience as one would expect the DVD to install what is
needed with short updates afterwards - typical of other software.
If Tech support can tell customers NOT to use the DVD, then:
a. It should not have been shipped out.
b.
Logos should have included a single page printed instruction. This is
not something complicated - just print it in a word document. Surely
the client's time is valuable enough to justify Logos putting forth
this minor effort?
If I had not spent an hour perusing the forums before install, I would have just used the DVD.
Final Thoughts
1. Installation is the most basic part of the software experience.
There's
NO REASON (pardon the caps but I do feel strongly about this after
having so much of my time wasted by Logos) that installation should
have been escalated to LEVEL TWO tech support. Install is a basic
event. This is a waste of you and your client's time. I assume that
level 2 tech support is not cheap.
2.Please be consistent. If indexing needs a 'Pause' feature which you provide, install also need a 'Pause' button.
3. Many of your inbound
tech support calls are about the install process so this is a known
issue. This is costing Logos $ and wasting huge hours of your clients'
time. We deserve better.
4. Basic printed communication is not difficult. INCLUDE some
instructions with your DVDS. Do not provide the DVDs if you do not
recommend that clients to use them. This is not a $20 software and
your clients deserve better.
I can understand if 4.0 is truly a new release. It is not and the problems are known.
5. It seems that there are much easier ways to do installs.
One example: You can provide the unlockable data on DVD. So all
users have to do is to download the Logos 4.0 software shell, and get
the data from DVD. It's simple and much faster.
I run 3 other Bible software and one take multiple gigabytes also.
No issues on install ever after over a decade of use and multiple
upgrades.
6. Some of the issues can be addressed pretty quickly such as the
printed instructions or issuing more current DVDs. (You can just BURN
them in house while waiting for pressed DVDs.) I am unclear why Logos
continue to tout the upcoming improvements to Logos 4.0 while not
addressing the install issues that has apparently been around for a
while?
7. Per my understanding, you communicate internally about Quality, Customer Service and Price.
While I do not expect Logos to compete on price given its feature
set, I'm unclear why quality (taking care to communicate with clarity)
and customer service (i.e. tech support) seem to be lacking.
8. Therefore, perhaps you should consider it a higher priority to
first fix the installation experience before continuing to chase
feature upgrades? While not every client will use every feature you
are working on, every client will go through the install process.
Again, just taking the hour to type up and print some basic instructions on paper would be helpful.
Blessings,
UL
ps: Sales technique is another issue but that is grist for a
different conversation. I do not mean retail/academic
(student/faculty), but how you do your 'specials' pricing.
Comments
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One addendum. The fact that I can backup Data, Documents & Users folders for future reinstall at a much faster pace shows that it's easy to implement a DVD with data to be provided to users.
Your current install structure means that anyone with slow connections (i.e .on the mission field) can't use your software?
UL0 -
It will take a few hours to download, but what you might be seeing is that Logos needs to index your books in order to increase the speed of Logos 4. Logos won't work properly until you do this and on a library your size it could take 5-10 hours. You only have to index once. You can right click on the index icon as it is indexing and pause the indexing because while this is occurring your computer will run very slow (it is almost unusable). When you right click on the Logos icon in the toolbar is it downloading resources or indexing? Can't you right-click on the icon while Logos is downloading to pause it and later do the same for the index?
A missionary on the mission field doesn't need a fast internet connection to run Logos, but one is probably needed to install Logos. Remember this process only needs to be done once. This makes the software much faster in the long run. Logos is meant to run on a fast computer. 2 GB Ram on a Mac and 4 on a PC is absolutely necessary for it to really run good.
Logos primarily uses the internet to install books because Logos 4 comes out with updates for the L4 software and the books all the time. Remember Logos 4 is still relatively new and some bus/additions are still being worked out. Logos doesn't want to send out a new CD every month.
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Learningcycle,
I suggest changing the name your profile displays so it isn't your e-mail address...spambots search forums like these, and will compound your frustration with junk mail.
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Jeremy, still on download. Not indexing yet. Thanks.
Ward - I went in and thought I changed the name in my profile but it still shows my e-mail.
I'll have to figure this out.
Thanks,
UL
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What happens when you right click on the Logos icon in your toolbox...can you pause the download?
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learningcycle@aol.com said:
Ward - I went in and thought I changed the name in my profile but it still shows my e-mail.
I'll have to figure this out.
Follow these instructions - Changing Forum
Display NameDave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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All I can say is that the install process is not fun. You have every right to be annoyed by what has happened thus far. Logos has truly dropped the ball on this issue from the start of Logos 4. But if you can forgive them and get through it, it in my opinion is worth it. I don't use any other bible software but Logos is pretty amazing in what it can do once it is installed. Though the constant updates and indexing every time you buy a new resource gets a little old. I agree on the Sales techniques as well btw.
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I feel for you brother. My initial download back in November took around 36 hours! Granted it was launch week, I have slow DSL and I have a very large library, but I did and still think putting customers through such an experience is unacceptable. Until the average broadband speed in the US gets faster, Logos should be prepared to offer installation options that do not require such a heavy reliance on the internet.
If I had not been a long time Logos user and had already invested so heavily in Logos I would have asked for a refund. Of all my consumer experiences in 48 years of life this way by far the very worse. There are so many things about Logos 4 I like, but my experience in installing it has left a bitter taste in my mouth. I have yet to recommend it to anyone else fearing that they would have the same bad installation experience I had. It is really discouraging to read that 6 months after it's launch you have had such a bad experience. I was hoping things would have improved.
On the possitive side, I think once you download everything and get it indexed you will like Logos 4. I use it everday now and am amazed at what it can do. There are still some issues, but it is improving with each new release.
If someone for Logos reads this thread, please consider how important first impressions are. The installation process is by far the worse thing about your product. You only have one chance to leave a first impression.
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I am running Logos 4 on my laptop with vista, which has intel core duo cpu T5800 2.00 ghz with 3 mb of ram. I have cable modem and it took about 3 hours to index after install. I have the scholars Library with approx. 585 rescources. I'm not sure why so many people are having a lot of hours of indexing, unless their internet connection is slow??? Or maybe with the amount of rescources they have.
Les
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Since the merge indexing is returning, I wonder if in the future, the DVDs can be shipped with a pre-built index and then merged to the machine? And maybe when you get a new book it would have a pre-built index as well that would also be merged. I don't know if this is where they are going with it, but it would be a start.
“... every day in which I do not
penetrate more deeply into the knowledge of God’s Word in Holy Scripture
is a lost day for me. I can only move forward with certainty upon the
firm ground of the Word of God.”0 -
Your points are all valid. I know many others have experienced the frustration of long downloads, seemingly infinite indexing, and exasperating hold times for Technical Support. I regret that you feel so frustrated you want to give it all up. I pray you won't.
Logos is a very valuable piece of software that can provide much benefit if you will give it the time it requires to get it set up and learn to use it productively. Some of us have been using this since the first beta days of Logos 4 and have experienced a great deal of difficulty, however I don't think any of us would give our software back. I'd love for the install and all the features to run as smoothly as the best software anywhere. Unfortunately some parts are rough for whatever reason.
Having said that, what the software is supposed to do works pretty well at this point. You will be able to accomplish a lot if you are patient. Some day we all hope the software runs faster and is more bug free. It is improving steadily. But it is usable now if you'll give it some time to get set up and running.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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I agree with the original poster that the installation process can be incredibly frustrating (though with my computer and internet connection I haven't had his hassles). I agree that a DVD with the current version of the software would make more sense than a DVD with the first release, and that resources could be included 'locked' on the original DVD, to save downloads.
However, even with all the objections raised in the original post, this is no reason to return Logos Platinum 4. The fact is that once installed it peforms exactly as it should and there is simply no product on the market which is even remotely comparable.
I have saved literally thousands of dollars on print resources, and been able to purchase new reference works with a convenience which makes buying from Amazon look like a complete waste of time. I am thrilled to be able to simply download new resources. I welcomed gladly the fact that they no longer have to be mailed out on CDs. This is especially relevant to someone such as myself, living in East Asia.Add to that the many information management features, and there is no disputing the fact that the product itself is well worth purchasing even with its various frustrations.
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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I'm very sorry about the trouble and frustration.
We're still adjusting to our new size (and many new staffers), and sometimes we haven't done a great job of getting technical info to all the staff evenly. For example, it sounds like all our reps don't know that we use Microsoft's "build into the operating system" BITS system for background Internet downloads; this component manages the downloads, restarts them if you reboot (without losing what's already downloaded), etc. It even makes our download a lower priority than your "foreground" tasks. (The "B" in "Background Intelligent Transfer Service".)
And it's hard for us to give accurate predictions about download time, since it seems to be different on some people's machines for various reasons. We host our files at Amazon.com's servers, which we don't control and which sometimes have dramatically different performance (time of day, other loads from other customers, etc.... ?? we don't really know why), and Microsoft's BITS is itself trying to "stay in the background." Different users' systems have different tasks running that can impact how much bandwidth BITS allocates to "background" transfer. Add on to this different locations, computers, etc... it all works in the end, but with less predictability than we'd like. (If we coded every step of the process ourselves, though, we'd lose the benefit of these well tested and fundamentally solid, if unpredictable, systems, and there'd be a whole class of other issues.)
I will see what I can do about getting the DVD updates pushed ahead. Here the problem is that we're updating Logos 4 pretty frequently, as well as updating the Mac alpha every two weeks. The DVD's are replicated in mass offsite. When there's one DVD per year, ordering quantity 1,000 and waiting 4 weeks for delivery isn't a big deal. But in this situation it's hard to keep things current. (I don't know if we mailed a 4.0c master off as soon as 4.0c went live, but if we did, I doubt it would even be back from the replicator yet. And it would be two alphas behind on the Mac already.)
I know this sounds like a long list of excuses, and you'd prefer it just works. So would I! But while we continue to improve both the code and the process, I at least what to offer some explanations of why we're failing to hit our own mark for a perfect experience.
(I'm very sorry, too, about the 40 minute tech support wait. Recently we've gotten our average call wait time down to under 3 minutes. (Our goal is under 2 at all times.) But, especially when going to another queue, we still get backlogged sometimes. We're working on that, too.)
-- Bob
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Greetings to Everyone who Replied. Thanks for the empathy, and the encouragement to endure and stay the course. Apparently I am not alone which is all the more reason for Logos to fix the issues. Some of the issues are not difficult fixes. Others may be more complex due to the approach Logos seem to insist on. (i.e. EVERYTHING including DATA by downloads)
Bob, thanks for responding. I must admit that I'm not sure who you are in the Logos hierarchy but appreciate the response. (I know, I can do a search.) I want to note that under any other condition, I would have refunded the software. I am writing because I am indeed hoping to see Logos be much more user friendly because of the nature of your product - there's Kingdom gains to be made.
So a few quick responses:
1. Appreciate the response.
2. Your level 2 tech was very good both technically and as a communicator. Forgot to mention that - meant to but left it out in the flow of writing. A real asset to Logos.
3. Download time. From my end as a consumer, don't give me 'best case' scenario when pushing for sales. Give me realistic scenarios. Quote for moderate to slowish DSL as a baseline. Your sales and your tech support estimates are vastly different - meaning that you DO KNOW what is realistic time per your tech support. Your sales SHOULD provide that! When I expressed doubt about that 2 hours, the sales made an effort to minimize my doubt.
I do not mind your sales being on commission (I have no idea if that is partial or total commission), and they have been excellent in providing information and following up. However, I do get a slight sense of their painting a rosier picture than reality to encourage a sale. Not sure if there's pressure there due to commission structure. I am sure they are all men of integrity but the expectations that they set up causes for a negative experience when actual experience does not match projected reality.
4. DVDs. Really, just BURN them in house. With today's low cost stack DVD burners, you can push many dozens in an hour! That is NOT a high investment. If churches can purchase the DVD equipment for under $1K, why not a business like Logos?
While I admit that I do not know everything that you are up against, your comment does sound like a justfication/excuse. I mean no disrespect.
5. You did not respond to my suggestion that you provide the DATA on DVD and then just have your customers download the Logos 4 software for the latest version. You don't have to respond but it would be nice to know why that would not be workable. Your tech support certainly did think that it made sense.
6. You did not respond to the suggestion that you provide some basic PAPER documentation with the DVDs. And do NOT provide DVDs that you don't want others to use. It seem like a sales technique to provide DVD on the pretext that it would work well when downloads are a problem. (i.e. When I'm overseas.) It won't and rightly or wrongly, my perception is that there's an issue in the intent to influence potential buyers' perception in a way that lacks integrity.
This is so simple! Why do you not do it?
7. Glad to hear that my tech support hold for level 2 was atypical. I certainly hope that I do not have to try it again. Your tech support did explain the situation to me. I'll note again that if you would provide basic documentation and change your distribution method, your tech calls could be reduced signicantly.
In all, I'm still under the assumption that Logos is not a business that is driven dominantly as a business alone but that it has a sense of its mission as a part of the Kingdom building process. I've not read your mission statement but given the nature of your product, I made that assumption, fairly or not.
Blessings,
UL
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Bob Pritchett is the President of Logos Bible Software.Ultralight said:Bob, thanks for responding. I must admit that I'm not sure who you are in the Logos hierarchy but appreciate the response.
Blessings
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Ultralight, I appreciate your eloquent posts.
I share some of your concerns. It seems that Logos didn't realize how well their new program was going to be received (as far as sales go) and they are having some issues in keeping up with the growth of their customer base.
They certainly are not going to be perfect (I have to remind myself of this). Posts like yours will help both Logos and the customer and I appreciate that. You stated your issues a lot better than I would have and in a much better tone than I would have.
While you didn't elaborate much on it and may not share my views, I want to sate, in general, that I'm not a big fan of the commission based sale for a number of reasons (esp. Christian to Christian sales). I want the best price up-front. I don't want to have to call... or be on a special email list. I don't think it is right for me to have to pay more for a resource that is discounted to someone else simply because they called or begged or whatever (with the exclusion, of course, of academic or customer wide sale prices). While I think I could find some 'proof-text' verses on the treating of everyone equally, I'm not going to bring it to a theological debate.
p.s. overall, Logos is awesome... (thought I needed to throw that in to soften the post a bit... [:)] )
Blessings to all
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I have Gold
took 48 Hours to do a full install to a new laptop (had some dead time when the system needed my help)
Knew it would take a while so gave it the whole weekend [using 780 DSL internet]
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Keep in mind these are my uninformed comments. I do not speak for Logos and the real reasons.
Ultralight said:3. Download time. From my end as a consumer, don't give me 'best case' scenario when pushing for sales. Give me realistic scenarios. Quote for moderate to slowish DSL as a baseline. Your sales and your tech support estimates are vastly different - meaning that you DO KNOW what is realistic time per your tech support. Your sales SHOULD provide that! When I expressed doubt about that 2 hours, the sales made an effort to minimize my doubt.
A legit concern. I don't know how Logos states download times on their website but would almost expect them not to mention any time and just state the download size with a comment that time will very because of X Y and Z.
Ultralight said:4. DVDs. Really, just BURN them in house. With today's low cost stack DVD burners, you can push many dozens in an hour! That is NOT a high investment. If churches can purchase the DVD equipment for under $1K, why not a business like Logos?
Logos has over 700,000 users. As soon as they put a button on the web that say's "order by DVD or Download" DVDs jump. The actual program is only what, 24 megs or so. Most users I would imagine do not run into problems downloading the program itself but the Resources. As stated in my response to your Number 5, in order for Logos to send out the resources you would be talking about either sending people the resources for their library alone, which defeats the purpose of being able to make multiple copies of one disc, or mail multiple dvds to many users. Plus everything is going to download, not just Logos. Logos would have to invest their money in DVD duplicators that are already on the way to becoming obsolete.
Ultralight said:5. You did not respond to my suggestion that you provide the DATA on DVD and then just have your customers download the Logos 4 software for the latest version. You don't have to respond but it would be nice to know why that would not be workable. Your tech support certainly did think that it made sense.
I can think of several reasons for this. First, Logos has over 10,000 books. My library of 2,200ish is about 10 gigs or so I think. In order for this to work they would have to burn people's libraries individually to disc or put the entire library in every mailing. That would seem like a whole lot of wasted discs considering that most resources sent would not be used. You would also have increased shipping costs. You would also have to spend more developing the software to account for two methods of adding resources, by DVD and download. And then once you've spent a bunch of time loading multiple DVDs on your computer to grab only a few resources from each DVD imagine how frustrated you would be when you are finally able to fire up Logos only to find out that some of the resources have been updated and you have to download them anyway! Case in point when 3.0c came out people had 1+gig downloads of the rebuilt interlinear.
Ultralight said:6. You did not respond to the suggestion that you provide some basic PAPER documentation with the DVDs.
Paper for which version? and how much information are you looking for the paperwork to contain? I could see a flier with installation instructions but Logos 4 continues to add new features and revamp old ones. Detailed documentation given now may be usable for a couple of months, but would soon become incomplete, obsolete and confusing. Plus with all the features in 4.0 that's a pretty heavy book that would cost a lot to ship for something that could be downloaded as a pdf in minutes. I could see a flier included with installation instructions and a "where to begin" section but that's about all I would want to pay for. I would not want to pay for the development, printing, and shipping of documentation that has such a short life when Logos has help built into it (which I think has come a long ways from when we first received Logos.
That's just a couple of my thoughts, for what they are worth.
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Ultralight,
I'm sorry for your bad experience with Logos to-date.
The vast majority of users will confirm that Logos is an awesome company. President Bob Pritchett monitors problems and makes sure they're solved. It seems that their biggest problem is keeping up with their success.
Your Platinum package contains a wealth of resources. I have the same package and love it.
Your patience will be rewarded.
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Philip Spitzer said:
Keep in mind these are my uninformed comments. I do not speak for Logos and the real reasons.
That was very informative post, thanks. You made some excellent points about DVDs which I hadn't thought of, and you addressed comprehensively a number of questions I was considering.Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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nothing new to add, just my own experience. On a slow DSL, it took me 24 hours to download about 9 GB. I now probably have 12 or 13 (?) GB and I do it in about 2 or 3 hours on a fast cable connection. Full indexing can take a few hours, but I sure love near instant search results on over 2600 resources.
Rest assure they listen to your comments and have pretty thick skins. Several currently "positive" L4ers were quite annoyed and semi-hostile sounding closer to the original launch--just a symptom of our frustrations and lack of insider knowledge and lack of attention to communicating with patience--but over time the L4 program and Logos company has won them over again.
All the best to you. You have a great resource in your hands that keeps improving weekly/monthly! And Logos does adjust their practices to adapt to real and relevant customer needs and requests.
Welcome to the community!
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Philip Spitzer said:
In order for this to work they would have to burn people's libraries individually to disc or put the entire library in every mailing.
Just what you say. They could do what they did with Logos 3 - burn DVD's with the contents of specific libraries. If a user received a DVD with all the Platinum resources, that would save hours of download time. Even recognizing some resources will need updating and some resources purchased separately won't be on the DVD, it would still save time to have DVD's of the various libraries that are sold. This was done with L3, I'm not sure why it couldn't be done with L4.
The download option has worked well for me. I prefer the download over a DVD since I have a fast connection and can leave it devoted to download for a while. I just recently reinstalled the Mac Alpha on my personal and office computers and the downloads completed in a matter of hours, almost 8 gig of resources, so the process is speedy enough for me, means I get the most up-to-date resources, and means I don't have to keep up with a DVD. But I recognize the download option doesn't work well for all people and a DVD option seems reasonable.
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Philip Spitzer said:Ultralight said:
6. You did not respond to the suggestion that you provide some basic PAPER documentation with the DVDs.
Paper for which version? and how much information are you looking for the paperwork to contain?
Dear Philip:
Thank you for your many helpful responses. But I think this could be re-visited. Even if there was a "standard" piece of paper with an url to a "constantly-updated" WIKI page with the latest install information/issues. Or a "read me" with some of the more common "issues" & "fixes." [I am not aware of either of these being available]. Disclaimer: I still find it a challenge to find stuff on the WIKI, let alone, trying to search these Forums.
I realize many other new users do not bother checking out the
documentation, but for those who do, something that was in large, colored, bright print might go a long way to helping this issue? If I had not had the experience of Libronix 3, plus its former news groups and this forum of beta testers, there would have been a number of things that might have stopped me in my tracks. But how many new users even know about these options?Regards, SteveF
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SteveF said:
Thank you for your many helpful responses. But I think this could be re-visited. Even if there was a "standard" piece of paper with an url to a "constantly-updated" WIKI page with the latest install information/issues. Or a "read me" with some of the more common "issues" & "fixes." [I am not aware of either of these being available]. Disclaimer: I still find it a challenge to find stuff on the WIKI, let alone, trying to search these Forums.
I guess my recommendation would be a flier with the following...
Installation instructions....
Getting Started Instructructions...
How to use help instructions....
Additional helpful links (the wiki,forum, video support page, etc... with descriptions of each, for example)
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Philip Spitzer said:
I guess my recommendation would be a flier with the following.
As someone who "does" read the inclosures, I certainly could live with that suggestion.
Hopefully, it could also aid the OP of this thread?
Regards, SteveF
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In relation to downloading the resources versus installing from disc:
I love the download mechanism for the resources...so too probably most everybody who used the old resource install method which involved popping multiple discs into your drive. I own over 100 cds/dvds of Logos resources purchased over the last 10 years. For me to install all my resources took hours of labor intensive disc popping. Now to install simply requires an overnight download (actually my 13 GB download on a recent install took about 3.5 hours over a cable connection) followed by a day-long indexing (which does not significantly slow down my computer, even on my netbook, but which I can always postpone and let complete overnight).
I admit that it is cumbersome, but considering what is going on, I don't think it's that bad, especially compared to the alternative of DVD packaging, which inevitably requires a ton of downloading anyway because Logos is so good to us by constantly updating its resources.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Chris Roberts said:Philip Spitzer said:
In order for this to work they would have to burn people's libraries individually to disc or put the entire library in every mailing.
Just what you say. They could do what they did with Logos 3 - burn DVD's with the contents of specific libraries. If a user received a DVD with all the Platinum resources, that would save hours of download time. Even recognizing some resources will need updating and some resources purchased separately won't be on the DVD, it would still save time to have DVD's of the various libraries that are sold. This was done with L3, I'm not sure why it couldn't be done with L4.
I thought that was done with L4. I purchased the Portfolio Edition, and it came complete on a DVD. Of course by that time I had already downloaded, installed, and indexed it, but if I hadn't wanted to wait for that, I could have just installed the whole thing off the DVD.Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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Jonathan Burke said:
Of course by that time I had already downloaded, installed, and indexed it
I have a feeling this is the case for most people. While the process of downloading it and installing does take a while, its less time the the total time of waiting for a DVD in the mail and then installing it, as well as running updates to get it current. However I recognize that for many DVD may be the only option either for download limits, connection speed/stability, or maybe for those outside the US.
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And having found an L3 disk hiding on a shelf a month after a re-install, and realizing that I'd never installed a resource that I forgot I had purchased....
I like the download design.
It takes me about 3 or 4 hours to index, maybe a few hours more for download of resources...for me, it's a worthwhile tradeoff..the peace of mind knowing that I haven't forgotten to load something I paid for...for the inconvience of leaving my laptop on over night.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Ditto to Edwin above.
Jerry
Macbook Air (2024), Apple M2, 16gb Ram, Mac Sequoia, 1TB storage
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Jeremy said:
A missionary on the mission field doesn't need a fast internet connection to run Logos, but one is probably needed to install Logos. Remember this process only needs to be done once.
Speaking as a missionary on the field, this is true. However, there are a few big problems:
1. The last media disk is based on 4.0a which is seven months old. 4.0a was argueably missing many core features and has had many bugs fixed since then. The updates are multiple gigabytes and in many missions locations, this is a physical impossibility.
2. Even if you decide you are happy to run an old version of Logos 4, let's say you want to add a small book to your library that you need for your work in the field. By small, I mean many of the titles that are 10mb or so, using dialup internet (albeit slow). The current architecture makes this impossible because you cannot download any new purchases until you download all the updates first which are gigabytes large if you are still at media DVD version 4.0a.
3. Even if there was a current media DVD disk with 4.0c, keep in mind that the resources that are on this disk are what comes standard in the Platinum edition (at least that is what I have been told). That means if you buy any of the other download only stuff like the new Zondervan materials, the only way you can get them is downloading gigabytes of information.
This is a very big problem and creates a large digital divide for missions workers.
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Philip Spitzer said:
I can think of several reasons for this. First, Logos has over 10,000 books. My library of 2,200ish is about 10 gigs or so I think. In order for this to work they would have to burn people's libraries individually to disc or put the entire library in every mailing.
The entire resource library of 10 gigs will fit on three DVDs. Do a fresh burn every four months and offer a subscription/one off purchase service. I guarantee you people in the field will gladly pay for these if this is the only way they can stay current. The software industry has been doing stuff like this for years.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
The entire resource library of 10 gigs will fit on three DVDs. Do a fresh burn every four months and offer a subscription/one off purchase service. I guarantee you people in the field will gladly pay for these if this is the only way they can stay current. The software industry has been doing stuff like this for years.
My library of 2200 resources is 10 gigs. With over 10,000 titles total that would be 15 dvds, assuming what I don't have is comparable size wise to what I do have. Loading each of those resources, and then the computer figuring out which ones it needs to transfer and which it does not, would be a very tedious experience.
the other option is to have a DVD or two with the most used resources on it to alleviate some of the downloading, but that doesn't seem like a good solution to me.
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Quick notes. I'm surprised by how many responses this thread has generated. I do appreciate all the responses - including one from Bob. Not often does the president of a company respond in a forum. Thanks also for all who encouraged me to stay the course.
A final notes and then I'll just read any further responses:
1. Dan from Logos did call this morning to check up on how the install went. Appreciate the quick response.
In our conversation, Dan did address most of my concerns. One of the challenges he noted about DVD updates is that sometimes, with upgraded editions of 4, the content of the library also need to be updated . This precludes sending out just the DATA on a DVD because even the data is not static as the software changes. Though I have a technical background, I admit that I am not aware of this necessity. So there are some technical difficulties to sending out even the content on DVD.
He also noted that burning in house on double density DVDS (8 + gigs per DVD if I remember corrrectly) took too long which is why they press the DVDs.
2. The indexing of my Platinum plus a few resources finished in less than two hours so I was surprised at how fast it went given that some reported overnight indexing. I'm not sure if everything in my resource loaded but I assume so .
This shows me that there is a considerable RANGE of download and indexing time depending on connect speed and equipment. Thus, per my earlier note - if Logos can give a more accurate up front information, that will prevent in accurate expectations which is what caused my initial concerns.
3. The digital divide for those overseas with slow connections then becomes an issue which I'd still love to see a physical solution.
4. Finally, in rereading my posting, I realized that I was very pointed in my observation. I hope that I was not unduly harsh in my tone. I stand by the issues I raised but also ask anyone who think that I was unduly harsh in tone to let me know.
Blessings,
UL
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Ultralight said:
4. Finally, in rereading my posting, I realized that I was very pointed in my observation. I hope that I was not unduly harsh in my tone. I stand by the issues I raised but also ask anyone who think that I was unduly harsh in tone to let me know.
I admit I haven't reread it, but I remember thinking it came across more passionate then harsh. I had no problem with it.
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It took me 4 days and 4 nights to download Logos4 Leaders Library. Slow internet connection in Albania. I just bore with it till it was done. I do appreciate that you don't lose everything if your internet connection fails or you need to reboot. It would be helpful if the button said Pause download rather than cancel download.
I have, I think, a 3 gig memory on Windows Vista. Logos 4 is a bit slow, but that's OK.
I didn't find the info until after I had ordered it that it needs lots of memory and a fast processor - i.e. I can't use L4 on my older computers. That could have been a problem if I didn't have a new computer. Also I had no idea about the size of the download till I started downloading. I think the info should be put somewhere very clear, so that it would be impossible to order L4 without seeing it.
Now I'm very happy with L4, despite minor irritations with slow response and notices that it has stopped responding. It responds again if you give it a minute or so. Tech support has been helpful when I have needed it, as have forums. And I still have L3 on my old mini laptop for travelling.
I would like to know what I am downloading in updates, and maybe be able to choose to download a resource but leave an update till later. At the moment I have an internet limit of 2 GB a month, and am trying to decide whether to pay to increase that. Main concern being Logos mega downloads!
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
The software industry has been doing stuff like this for years.
Yes, but a lot of things the software industry has been doing for years are becoming obsolete. I think all the issues on both sides have been well discussed in this thread. The current situation is not good for those in the field without ready fast Internet access, but an alternative solution (essentially going back to the "unlock" method that was used in 3.0 and ditched for a variety of reasons -- mainly complexity for users and support costs) would not be good for most everyone else. Perhaps some hybrid solution could be cooked up, but it would take development time away from stabilizing the existing code and continuing to bring the 4.0 feature set up to the level many users expected it to be at when it first shipped. And it would probably cause Logos to cost more all around. If those who want the DVD option are willing to shoulder the increased cost by themselves, maybe it could work. But unfortunately those tend to be the folks with the least amount of disposable income (missionaries). Maybe it could be considered a cost of supporting missionaries in the field that others would be willing to take upon themselves...
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Rosie Perera said:
Maybe it could be considered a cost of supporting missionaries in the field that others would be willing to take upon themselves...
Someone with a good internet connection could run a copy of Logos under the missionary's ID to download the latest software and resources, then they could backup the Logos install directory to a DVD or two, and send it to the missionary who would then restore the directory over his current install.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Rosie Perera said:
Yes, but a lot of things the software industry has been doing for years are becoming obsolete.
It is only obsolete where downloading Logos 4 isn't a problem. There are parts of the world still using older, but reliable technologies for now.
But I also appreciate that the world where good access is does need to move on. In no way would I suggest that L4 needs to go back to the L3 architecture.
[quote] If those who want the DVD option are willing to shoulder the increased cost by themselves, maybe it could work.
It will cost and what has been voiced on here by others (including myself) is that we are willing to pay as this is the only way to use L4 where high speed connectivity is a problem.
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Todd Phillips said:Rosie Perera said:
Maybe it could be considered a cost of supporting missionaries in the field that others would be willing to take upon themselves...
Someone with a good internet connection could run a copy of Logos under the missionary's ID to download the latest software and resources, then they could backup the Logos install directory to a DVD or two, and send it to the missionary who would then restore the directory over his current install.
Todd,
I'm sure you are aware of our License Agreement, but I want to make sure that everyone else is aware of what our License Agreement says. If someone does send the missionary their ID's, resources and software, whoever does that would have to make sure to remove the missionary's licenses from their computer as it is outside the grounds of our License Agreement to have more than one person use the licenses. Specifically, our license agreement says: "The license goes with the user. Every user
must purchase their own package. If you have a work machine and a
laptop and they are both yours for your personal use, you may load it on
both for your personal use - because the license goes with the
user." Can you purchase one package and have two people use it? No.
The license goes with the user. The license is a single user license."More about the license agreement can be found here.
Deborah Mickens
Logos Bible Software, Marketing
dmickens@logos.comDeborah Mickens
Logos Bible Software, Marketing
dmickens@logos.com0 -
Deborah Mickens said:
I'm sure you are aware of our License Agreement, but I want to make sure that everyone else is aware of what our License Agreement says. If someone does send the missionary their ID's, resources and software, whoever does that would have to make sure to remove the missionary's licenses from their computer as it is outside the grounds of our License Agreement to have more than one person use the licenses. Specifically, our license agreement says: "The license goes with the user. Every user
must purchase their own package. If you have a work machine and a
laptop and they are both yours for your personal use, you may load it on
both for your personal use - because the license goes with the
user." Can you purchase one package and have two people use it? No.
The license goes with the user. The license is a single user license."Sorry, I should have qualified my statement. I'm not suggesting that the other person actually use the software on the machine with the network--they just generate an install for the purpose of shipping it off. It might even be that that machine is the missionary's home computer, and the one he takes with him to the field is his laptop.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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This brings up a question I have. If you aren't connected to the internet and only get L4 through CDs, how will Logos remember your preferences and settings? Does it store them on your computer somewhere?
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Jeremy said:
This brings up a question I have. If you aren't connected to the internet and only get L4 through CDs, how will Logos remember your preferences and settings? Does it store them on your computer somewhere?
Of course. The Logos server is only backup, not primary.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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[quote]We host our files at Amazon.com's servers, which we don't control and
which sometimes have dramatically different performance (time of day,
other loads from other customers, etc.... ?? we don't really know why)So, I hate to ask the obvious question--but if you can't control the user's experience, and this specific part of your service is so critical to your user's experience, then why are you outsourcing it? Is the money you're saving really worth the problems your users are experiencing?
:-)
Russ
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Russ White said:
So, I hate to ask the obvious question--but if you can't control the user's experience, and this specific part of your service is so critical to your user's experience, then why are you outsourcing it? Is the money you're saving really worth the problems your users are experiencing?
I think that if you had experience running a server farm you might want to restate this question. I have assumed that Logos outsourced because they recognized running a server farm was beyond their expertise. My frame of reference - the Pacific Northwest internet hub after Boeing ceased to host it. I would be far more uncomfortable with the system architecture for Logos 4 if Logos ran their own servers.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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[quote]I think that if you had experience running a server farm you might want
to restate this question. I have assumed that Logos outsourced because
they recognized running a server farm was beyond their expertise.You're assuming I've not had that experience. Bad assumption. But you're diving in the wrong direction, IMHO. My line of reasoning would be:
1. My customers rely on something I must outsource.
2. Their experience is apparently horrible in this regard (based on the replies on this thread--some people taking days to install the software).
3. Hmmm... What can I do about this? I have three choices, it seems.
3a. Don't outsource this, even if that means hiring someone with the experience and expertise in running the solution in-house, or some other arrangement.
3b. Rethink whether or not I want to go in an architectural direction that forces me to outsource this.
3c. Find some way to avoid the problem. Here I think there are some suggestions on the thread that could be helpful.
I'm not trying to beat up on Logos here (I am, after all, a huge proponent of Logos at my Seminary and Church), but it does seem like one common problem people encounter is with the synchronization pieces on install.To state that you don't know why something isn't running the way it should--something that touches your customer base in such a major way--and that you can't necessarily fix it--well, it just doesn't sound good, no matter why it might be that way. To go back to the original quote:
[quote]We host our files at Amazon.com's servers, which we don't control...
:-)
Russ
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Lol...welcome to the world of cutting edge, highly efficient, bible software.
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Russ White said:
You're assuming I've not had that experience. Bad assumption.
My apologies; you'd given no indication of experience so you are correct that I had simply assumed.
Russ White said:2. Their experience is apparently horrible in this regard (based on the replies on this thread--some people taking days to install the software).
3. Hmmm... What can I do about this? I have three choices, it seems.
I'd take a modified 3c approach:
3d. Some of my users,a small but significant number, have a horrible experience. How do I identify the factors common to those users and correct or minimize the effects of those factors on their experience?
and add a 4th point:
4. Can I design performance and stability into the product earlier in the development cycle?
We need to remember that the group that we see on the forums is not an unbiased statistical sample
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I'd take a modified 3c approach:
3d. Some of my users,a small but significant number, have a horrible experience. How do I identify the factors common to those users and correct or minimize the effects of those factors on their experience?
and add a 4th point:
4. Can I design performance and stability into the product earlier in the development cycle?
We need to remember that the group that we see on the forums is not an unbiased statistical sample
In a sense, your final point casts a shadow on your point 3d - we, on these forums, don't know what the overall total of customers who had, at some point, a horrible experience with Logos4. We know that not a few of the forum users have reported serious difficulties - some, like myself, overcame them and now use Logos4 more and more (although some may still use Logos3 as well) and others have given up on Logos4 and gone back to Logos3.Only Logos' customer support know how many users have reported serious issues (assuming they identify such stats)... The fact that some still report 20 minute+ wait times when phoning for support suggests that the Logos support team is still handling more support calls than they can manage which, after 7 months(?) of Logos4 being available is a bit concerning...
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Andy Bell said:
The fact that some still report 20 minute+ wait times when phoning for support suggests that the Logos support team is still handling more support calls than they can manage which, after 7 months(?) of Logos4 being available is a bit concerning...
I doubt that those calls are all from people who have owned Logos 4 for 7 months. The majority of them are most likely to be new or recent users.
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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