---unless it's notes!

I believe there have been some noticable improvements to notes since L4s launch. Granted, much of it is fixing things(like hyperlinking), Personally, I would rather have notes stay simple to increase the likely hood of them being able to import over to L5 without tying it down. The fewer variables that need to be accounted for the easier the transition should be....in theory. There are certainly improvements that I would like to see to notes. I can guarantee you that the list I would come up with of things that would make notes "advanced" would be different then yours, so Logos could put in a bunch of time adding various features that satisfy some while everyone else says "where's my features". Personally I like that they are easy and uncluttered. If they do add features to it I would love to see a simple interface and a full featured interface included.

No doubt the debate will rage on and as long as we voice it with the heart and attitudes of Christ I fully welcome the debate.

For recording interesting material in Logos books I'm browsing, I find Clippings much better than OneNote. I don't see what the problem is with Notes in Logos, since the program does all I want to do with notes.

Nathan Barnes said:

Gimme PBB on steroids

I actually think PBB on 'roids might be the best solution... PBBs that allow you to include links to references in resources.

Instead of trying to create a word processor, what about integrating fantastically with the most popular one out there: create deep integration with the Office 2010 Word to author PBBs and import them. (I say this as a Mac user primarily using iWork Pages... willing to switch to Word though). Make it so that I'd rather write my notes using Word (not one note... no Mac version [:)] ). 

MJ. Smith said:

Consider how students now learn to take notes and consider whether your vision matches.

I use the mapping method when writing notes to study academically (as for exams). But I don't use the mapping method for anything else. For me, notes are organized and formatted snippets which I collate on a subject I'm studying, for the purpose of writing a journal article or book. I don't need or use mapping for that, nor do I need anything special in the way of graphics or tables. I write tables as I need them in the working document (and I am big on tables, I use them frequently). I avoid formatting heavily in notes, saving my formatting for the working document.

I don't need Logos 4 to provide me with a note taking system suitable for lectures, because I don't use Logos to take notes while listening to lectures. I use it to research publications for my own work.

JimVanSchoonhoven said:

Notes are a key feature that helps to organize research in more usable ways and prevents me from doing the same research again and again.  A good note system is an important part of a good learning system. It is just as important as a good search feature.

I'm concerned that feature creep leads to bloatware, added complexity and likelihood of software failure, increased burden for technical support, and increased price for users. I don't want Logos 4 to be a replacement for Microsoft Office, I want it to stay focused on its core competency, a knowledge management system for Bible research products.

Jonathan Burke, I am not talking about a replacement for microscoft Office, I am talking about have a system at least as good as their competition, or even at least as good as a free bible software could provide.

What I am saying is I can understand you don't want and don't need such a feature, but I hope you understand that as long as Logos doesn't have such a feature, they are lagging behind other programs in this area and for those that do a lot of research and want a place to store it, they miss such a feature.

I do not know how hard this is to do, but I have to assume that if one guy donating his time to writing a bible study program can come up with a better system than Logos currently has, how hard can it be?

If Students are one of of their main markets they need to help them with a note system that will be easy to use, and provide a place to store their notes from the research they do, class notes, their own notes and even information from books in the system can be stored and arranged to make it useful, other wise they are missing out on doing students a huge service that I am sure at this time most people do not understand.

I will give you some general information about a recent contact I had with the head of a large Seminary.  We got to talking about this subject and he was saying the same thing you are saying.  Until I took the time to show him exactly how much a person could do with the proper understanding and the proper note taking features.  Afterwards, he simply said, if we could teach our students to do that, it would change how we educate them forever.  It would make studying so much easier for them and they could have everything they ever got from our school with them for the rest of their lives, and in the most useful form possible.

He is talking to the staff about how this could be done at their school.

So yes, I understand it is not for everyone, but it sure would help some, and I am one of those that will not do without such a program, if it is not Logos, it will be some one else that provides it, even if it is a free program.

In Christ,

Jim

JamesHudson said:

In a recent post concerning cloud computing Bob said:

"Will we do them, and suffer the hassle and inconvenience, if they are the top priority of a huge number of users?

Yes."

 

...that is, unless it is effective notetaking within Logos!

 

It's so sad to see multitudes of users have to post work arounds -

I'm NOT trying to pick a fight...but I am wondering about the presumption that MULTITUDES of users are clamoring for this.

The statement above assumes that what's represented on the forums is a "huge" percentage of Logos users...

That may or may not be true...I guess only Logos has those numbers.

Again...not picking a fight...not calling anyone names....just asking the question about the presumed fact.

Jonathan Burke, concerning Logos and their goal for Logos, have you ever listened to the talk given on this page? http://www.logos.com/academic it is by Dale Pritchett, I think my view may not be as far off as you think.  Look for it on the right hand side about half way down, it is about 14 minutes long.  All I am saying is since they want to be the best for researchers and students they need to pick up the pace in this area of notes and how they can be used.

By the way in my opinion I love Logos 4 as far as it goes, but right now I find L3 is still better for overall research. If you notice on the academic page they are still using L3 videos and information.

I hope you at least enjoy the talk.

In Christ,

Jim

JamesHudson said:

Robert,

You are correct - it is my impression, but based on at least 3 sources of evidence:

1.  Since the outset Notes and PBB ("Notes on steroids" as has been referred to in this thread) have consistently been in the top 3 places on Uservoice with many votes. I ask Why is that?

 

2.  Every thread mentioning notes in Logos 4 has always had many replies (they always seem - again my impression -  to attract the largest numbers of responses) much more than posts about most other subjects. I ask Why is that?

 

[Aside: they usually follow the same pattern - Lots (again my impression!) of people bemoaning the fact that although notes is seen by many to be a key "core" aspect of Bible study software, Logos notes are unusable. Then a few people say they use other software such as OneNote and that's fine for them and then it usually ends with someone reminding us that Bob has said he doesn't want to create a wordprocessor because it's too difficult - among other reasons. At which point the thread dies out because people realise that they can't change Bob's mind....all until a brand new customer who hasn't read the forums comes online and bemoans the note system once again!]

3. There used to be a Wiki page (can't seem to find it now) where people suggested alternative note-taking software - things that could get the job done better. Strange to find that on a Bible software wiki UNLESS it was something that lots (my impression again) of people were wanting -  thinking "Well if Logos doesn't provide it, we still need it so we'll have to look elsewhere). People such as LaRosa even create videos to show how to use alternatives and make them seem to fit into Logos window. I ask Why is that?

 

If it is a such a hot topic causing seemingly lots (my word) of people either complaining or giving up and trying alternatives, then that is something I think an MD of a company would be listening too. Bob's quote that I put in the opening post seems to say that he is listening to users (and I have to admit here, he does have such a fantastic record of doing so in every case except notes) - but I still don't think he has grasped the concept of notes (his mind now automatically says "I don't want to make a word-processor" so that's the end of it)  Users have been forced to try alternatives. My contention is that even the best alternatives (e.g. One Note) are not integrated enough with Logos. Little things (like I mentioned in the OP) such as I'd like to have a reference pop-up with the text from  within my notes, I'd like to do a Library lookup and search, etc etc.

 

So, YES - you are right. It IS my impression that many people are unhappy with notes and that may be changing (with Beta and PBB on the way etc) or even wrong. I think many people may have given up now and are getting used to doing things another way and aren't so bothered. But I like to think about what things CAN be rather than what they could have been.

Thank-you for the tone of your query - I too am not trying to pick a fight. But I do like to keep it high in the collective consciousness of users (and Logos employees) so we can make Logos better and better (not a 'what might have been'). I've invested far too much money and time in Logos software (right from the early days - thousands and thousands of dollars) to leave it now so I'm looking forward to what it can be - and I don't want to be embarassed when I show it to my pastor etc and they make the comment about notes being better in their free software.

 

Here's to healthy debate. Hopefully one day Logos will be the only Bible software people will have heard of and use.

 

Yours in Him,

 

James

James,

I understand where you are coming from...thanks for taking the time to answer me in such a detailed manner...

God bless brother...

bob

Folks

I fear that I may be about to drag quite a deep and expert discussion back to what American friends might refer to as kindergarden levels, but having followed the debate above with some interest, I would like to pose three questions to a group who are obviously seriously tuned into what the notes facility might be capable of delivering. Here is what gives rise to my questions:

I still find myself puzzling over why the decision was taken to release L4 without the ability to even export a notes file into something else that could do whatever else the user would want. As a long-time user of Logos and many other PC based systems, I have been (and still am) worried that I must be missing something whenever I come to think about this subject. Even at their most basic (and I would love more sophisticated facilities built into the native notes editor, but let's leave that aside just for a moment), the notes facility seems to me to be THE best way of capturing the development of one's thinking on a subject that one is likely to return to at some point, given that it sits inside the library of resources itself. It presents a perfectly usable, albeit basic, framework to capture the outline of an argument or - and here's the bit that has me frustrated - a SERMON. The one application of Logos that seems to me to be badly impaired by the decision to provide no facility to take notes into anything outside the screen of the PC in use, is the timeless (and vital) ministry of publicly declaring God's Word in the form of preaching. All that is missing, it seems to me, is the ability to get the material out (either directly, or better still into another application that can allow other edits to added before turning it) into a form that one is able to fold in two, slip inside the front cover of one's bible and take to a service to use as preaching notes.

Even without the great ideas that you brothers are kicking around the forum on what notes may be able to do if someone would make it a high enough priority, I would greatly welcome the ability to fire up my Logos, delight in surfing through a library more extensive than I could never have hoped to build such a thing when I started out studying the bible 25 years ago, explore timeless truths guided by the works of spiritual giants, and capture the ideas and thoughts that He stimulates in me in a reasonably simple outline, with some major points, some subsidiary points and the underlying detail all organised in a manner that I can then squirt into some other application to finalise before I try to give it to people, either by speaking to them or letting them have them as notes.

It still seems like a huge oversight to have built a commercial product that cannot do this basic task. So here are my questions:

1. Am I missing something?

2. Is there a decent explanation anywhere on these forums, or something else, about why the facility was deemed unnecessary?

3. What is the party line from the development team at Logos on when they are going to at least liberate the material in the notes files so that they can be worked into other applications and ultimately printed out?

Every blessing

PHIL

Bob Pritchett said:

third-party controls shows them to be inadequate in technology match (we're now WPF, which doesn't have as rich a third-party infrastructure yet), Hebrew typing support (I don't know any third party control that has it), and cross platform support. ... To make sure I'm not missing something (with no sarcasm), please let me know which competitors have notes systems you like, with table and outline editing. I'll see if they're using third-party components I'm not aware of.

Bob, I do admit that I am out of my league here, and that I do not know what all is involved.  Still, if I can type in Hebrew in my browser when I am using gmail, why is it so hard to find a "control" that has Hebrew typing support.? 

My other question is, if you are looking at a third party control, why not use OpenOffice's word processor.  Not only is it free, it has both a windows and mac version.