For all that's holy and true...WHY? WHY?? WHY??? WHY????

David Paul · 2025-03-23T08:53:37+00:00

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Why, why, why must Logos be forced/permitted/allowed to devolve in every possible way?

Because I have interlinear tables in some of my older notes, but Logos no longer allows for tables in Notes, if I try to edit in a note with a table, the whole program crashes to desktop. Not good…devolution. At some point in the past, the Right-to-Left orientation of my Hebrew language interlinear tables was erroneously (and with no input from me) swapped to Left-to-Right orientation. Not good, very bad…devolution.

Ah, but I found a workaround. I can copy interlinear text into Word and then take a screenshot and paste it into my note and replace the once happy but now troublesome interlinear table with a pic. So, being engaged in such endeavor, I was caused to come across the following atrocity:

This first pic is the OG Hebrew table (that was inadvertently transposed by a program glitch into L-to-R) that I intend to replace…

…and this second pic is my screenshot of the above but in correct R-to-L format…

Notice anything different (apart from the swapped word order)? Check the red boxes. The top pic is from LHI at the time I made the note (10/2013), and the bottom is from LHI now. WHY…WHY…WHY?????

Why has LHI devolved into intellectual SLOP??? WHY has it chosen to ignore the component parts (the integral affixes—preposition and definite article) that combine with the root lexeme to form the final form of the text? This is PRECISELY the kind of component information that users OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO EXPECT from a quality interlinear. WHY this CHOICE of DELIBERATE devolution?

I'm not going to get too "distressed" about the decision to go with the less accurate choice of "trouble" rather than "distress"; it's okay-ish, though less preferrable.

But that's not all, sadly. See the "of" in the blue box? That is almost always a function of a word being in the construct state, but LHI is insisting the word is in the absolute state (green box), as confirmed in the parsing pop-up…

Now, I'm not a full-fledged Hebrew "expert"…it's conceivable there is a valid explanation for this (but is there??), though I've never encountered anything like this before that wasn't CONSTRUCT. At the very least, since there is nothing present to account for the "of" if it isn't construct, it should be in [brackets].

WHY IS THIS ENTIRE PROGRAM FALLING APART AT THE SEAMS???

On the positive side of the ledger, if FL completely drops the ball re: Bible study software, I'm sure they have a solid future as a paperclip maximizer. Starting to get some definite DOGE vibes…break it and insist it's better.

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Comments

John

@David Paul

Logos software is going through major changes right now to integrate AI. But given that fact, I'm sure any changes such as the ones you describe were not a deliberate decrease in functionality. They should be reported as bugs so that they may be addressed. I see issues reported here on the forum addressed frequently by the developers personally. But it might help if you ask nicely …

I personally do not need AI in my Bible study at this time. I find it interesting and I do think there might be benefits in the future, so I am not against Logos moving into this realm. But I am not a subscriber and have nothing to gain at the present time by subscribing. Given this situation, I turned off automatic updates in the Logos software and made sure I had the ability to reinstall version 36.1 if I should need to do so. I am aware of others also who are quite happy just running an older version of the software.

The forum has been flooded with complaints recently of the program freezing and crashing etc, which is most likely due to bugs introduced during new development. In a perfect world, only the Beta versions of software would be affected by these issues, but the world does seem to be a bit less than perfect.

These issues make my decision to stop riding the AI feature development train look pretty wise 😎

Are you running the current version of the software? If your issues did not exist in a previous version, installing an older version might be a temporary solution …

I'm not sure how DOGE fits into any of this, but I am a supporter of saving our government from bankruptcy and believe its about time somebody did something. But this forum is not the place for debate on such issues.

P.S. - I am not sure if you are superstitious, but you just made your 6,066th post 😯

Donovan R. Palmer

Logos software is going through major changes right now to integrate AI.

The forum has been flooded with complaints recently of the program freezing and crashing etc, which is most likely due to bugs introduced during new development. In a perfect world, only the Beta versions of software would be affected by these issues, but the world does seem to be a bit less than perfect.

To be fair, I'm not sure this is an issue with AI, but more the new development mode that Logos is in generally. With the six-week release cycle, this will happen occasionally. I personally prefer this shift to more frequent updates and accept that we will occasionally see a bump in the road.

The good news is that the rapidly produced service release fixed the problems introduced in v. 40 for many people, including me. Logos seems to be on top of it, and it has not always been this way.

https://community.logos.com/kb/articles/2113-logos-release-notes

There may be a few remaining issues, and we need Logosians to continue reporting here so that any further bugs can be squashed.

The software development roadmap is a second valid point of discussion. There are perhaps two points here:

First, like David Paul, I focus primarily on the platform's functionality in textual-oriented studies. I can't comment on the specific point David is making about the LHI (I know enough Hebrew to be dangerous), but I think posts like this help highlight the potential for developments and the problems we are encountering as we focus on using the platform in this way.

Second, what sparked this thread and another is functional regression in how Logos handles tables from the past. I tried to dig around, but I think I recall Mark Barnes or someone else from Logos recently mentioning that the current philosophical position on notes is not to compete with what some software developers are spending substantially more on. (It might have been Mark Barne's webcast on the 5th of March) I understand why Logos takes this position, but it also presents another problem. Logos is a bit of a walled garden, so using other note-taking platforms to augment Logos is problematic. (Even ref.ly links are mainly for creating links to other platforms, and last I checked, Logos notes do not allow for me to easily create links from different platforms back - in other words, bi-directional)

Notes are a pillar of our research and studies. Part of the justification for moving to a subscription model was to create a more consistent flow of revenue to invest in areas of the platform that would not necessarily qualify as a 'new cool tool' within a two-year release cycle. In other words, the aspects of the platform that we take for granted and may not find particularly exciting would receive some much-needed attention. So, I hope developments around notes, with tables or not, (and maybe personal books or user created Bibles) can feature somewhere in the future development roadmap.

DMB

Libby, Libby, Libby, on the label, label, label.

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363858#Comment_1363858

Did L3 have notes? If it did I never used them 😐️

DMB

Somehow you missed David's thread (this one).

Actually, I don't use Faithlife's notes, nor their tools, nor their new baby, AI. Group-think.

All, inefficient, blind-leading-blind, and impressive.

EastTN

…what sparked this thread and another is functional regression in how Logos handles tables from the past. I tried to dig around, but I think I recall Mark Barnes or someone else from Logos recently mentioning that the current philosophical position on notes is not to compete with what some software developers are spending substantially more on….

It's one thing to stop developing any new features for notes - it's another to remove existing functionality and break users' old notes.

I personally do not need AI in my Bible study at this time. I find it interesting and I do think there might be benefits in the future, so I am not against Logos moving into this realm. But I am not a subscriber and have nothing to gain at the present time by subscribing.

This describes my view, with one nuance. I'm quite disconcerted by how quickly and single-mindedly Logos appears to be chasing AI. They're betting the farm on AI and pursuing a new business model that makes me seriously question whether the program will continue to be a good fit for me in the future. As a result, I've drastically cut back on my investments in Logos resources.

These issues make my decision to stop riding the AI feature development train look pretty wise 😎

Agree completely.

David Paul

I addressed the use of tables being deprecated in an earlier post. This thread only mentioned it because it was the inordinate amount of time I have spent (without exaggeration, at least 2 years of full-time+ effort from my life) trying to salvage my notes from the destructive forces of "improvements" to Logos over the years that put me in the position to notice the horrific changes that were made to LHI, which are the focus of this thread. I have long felt that something was amiss with LHI, and this example demonstrates the reason for my unease.

As I stated above, someone involved with this Lexham product CHOSE to water down and make less useful and accurate the details of the Hebrew text. IT WAS A CHOICE…not some errant breaking of an unrecognized feature, of which I can list dozens of examples, and have over the years. It's the pattern of behavior, and the seeming propensity to introduce such carnage—sometimes INTENTIONALLY—that I am addressing.

Re: Notes…I use Notes almost exclusively to insert relevant information into the text of my NASB95. If there is some 3rd party software that can attach notes to words, phrases, and verses in my Logos Bible, I'm all ears. Otherwise, external options are of little use to me. My notes, located anywhere other than my Bible, have little utility for me. The majority are enhanced and marked-up cross-references, which show relationships, connections, themes, etc.

Fwiw, L3's notes permitted you to create notes that allowed you to conduct Proclaim presentations right from the software…without Proclaim, and quite often, without even having to click any buttons. A simple mouse hover illuminated discovered insights in full-screen glory. When I showed Bob how I was using Notes, he declared it interesting but "novel", and that amazing feature was designated a bug and squashed in L4, never to be seen again. Don't want to invalidate the need for Proclaim!!

DMB

I'm quite disconcerted by how quickly and single-mindedly Logos appears to be chasing AI. They're betting the farm on AI and pursuing a new business model that makes me seriously question whether the program will continue to be a good fit for me in the future

Yep. 'the store' all over the place, and 'AI' catching up as a be-all for Bible study.

I don't begrudge others excitement (and every Faithlife announcement is that they're excited).

I rationalize that Faithlife is becoming sort of a Christian bookstore … doo-dads and so forth. But seminary/Bible-college, I do wonder.

I got my prepubs … Hebrew encyclopedia, Family 35, and some new journals. But the bulk of my religious purchases are now on my Scribe.

MJ. Smith

@EastTN

I'm quite disconcerted by how quickly and single-mindedly Logos appears to be chasing AI. They're betting the farm on AI and pursuing a new business model that makes me seriously question whether the program will continue to be a good fit for me in the future. As a result, I've drastically cut back on my investments in Logos resources.

Logos is in an interesting bind - with the Search there were a number of users who couldn't understand why Google sometimes gave better results. With Chatbots that problem grows exponentially. Unlike Magisterium AI and Sefaria: a Living Library of Jewish Texts Online, Logos does not serve a single group so that a separately trained, limited chatbot is not a viable option. Logos is trying to ensure that it remains relevant in a rapidly changing AI world which will require some mix of the past and the future. We need to help them by being vocal about what does and does not meet our needs, about when we would rather use third party software, and about how much accuracy we require in the data they provide.

NichtnurBibelleser

Thanks, @MJ. Smith, for dropping casually the hint to a Catholic AI, Magisterium.

Donovan R. Palmer

On this weekend’s edition of Daily Dose of Greek, some coverage was given to comparing the results from three AI platforms to study Greek.

David Paul

So all of this is going on…and we still have this? 🤔🤨

https://community.logos.com/discussion/247298/no-greek-translation-available

Kristin

On this weekend’s edition of Daily Dose of Greek, some coverage was given to comparing the results from three AI platforms to study Greek.

Hi @Donovan R. Palmer,

Thanks for letting us know. It is truly remarkable how excited every industry seems to be about AI, especially with its known bias and errors.

While I can understand a lot of people want it, and thus Logos' interest in offering it, I hope they remember that there is still a decent sized group of us who want nothing to do with AI.

Tbh, I had actually bought Logos when I did since I heard that they were going to be introducing AI, so I made a point to buy v.10 specifically to avoid it.

(I admit I also despise subscriptions, so I also bought it to avoid that). Hopefully in the future Logos can offer an option to buy new versions of the program again, maybe excluding AI, and leave that part as subscription or something.

David Paul

"Bias" is a squishy word in the context of AI. First of all, "AI" is also a squishy word. AI is not A thing…it's an unlimited number of things, many of which have nothing in common. The most common AIs that people are familiar with are LLMs, such as the three used above (Donovan's post). But, pretty much by definition, those are not subject to typical "bias". What they spit out is a conglomeration hodge-podge of whatever a given LLM vacuums up first when it does a fetch. Quite often, complaints about bias are rooted in bias: "I don't like your ideas…I prefer mine."

DMB

@Kristin

Tbh, I had actually bought Logos when I did since I heard that they were going to be introducing AI, so I made a point to buy v.10 specifically to avoid it.

Not to be the bearer of bad tidings, but your Logos quietly updates itself (every six weeks or so), unless you tell it not to. If you tell it not to, you won't get bug fixes and so forth. I don't know on yours, but I'd assume you have AI-Search Bible already, as a non-subscriber (3 tries per month).

Kristin

Tbh, I had actually bought Logos when I did since I heard that they were going to be introducing AI, so I made a point to buy v.10 specifically to avoid it.

Not to be the bearer of bad tidings, but your Logos quietly updates itself (every six weeks or so), unless you tell it not to. If you tell it not to, you won't get bug fixes and so forth.

Hi @DMB,

Thanks for letting me know, but I am actually kind of confused. I knew that Logos updates itself, but I thought it updates within the bounds of v.10, while v.11 introduced AI? In order to clarify, let me just take a minute and pretend I like AI (just for the sake of clarifying my confusion). So as a person who really, REALLY dislikes subscriptions, enough for me to get v.10 specifically to avoid it, and knowing that I can (sadly) never buy a new version until they change this policy back to people being able to buy versions, I STILL "get" AI, even as a non-subscriber. Thus, the people who have v.11 are forced to subscribe, for what reason, exactly? (On a side note, I think a subscription model is great as an option, as some people would rather subscribe, and I see this being good for churches where pastors come and go, but I think a buyable option is important too).

I don't know on yours, but I'd assume you have AI-Search Bible already, as a non-subscriber (3 tries per month).

What is AI-Search Bible? How do I know if I'm using it? I am really against AI in part since I have repeatedly seen it make theological mistakes, and also since I think it hinders research. If other people want to use it, that is perfectly fine and I don't have a problem with people using it if they want it, but I am concerned about it sticking its nose in my work.

Yasmin Stephen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363905#Comment_1363905

Mark Barnes wrote an article on how Logos uses AI; find out more here —> How Logos uses AI — Logos Community

TL;DR version: you'll know if/when you're using AI.

Kristin

Mark Barnes wrote an article on how Logos uses AI; find out more here —> How Logos uses AI — Logos Community

Hi @Yasmin Stephen,

Thank you, I will take a look at it.

TL;DR version: you'll know if/when you're using AI.

Ok, great! I must not be using it then, as I don't have any clear notification or indication.

DMB

@Kristin

I knew that Logos updates itself, but I thought it updates within the bounds of v.10, while v.11 introduced AI?

There is no v.11 for the app. After v10, they began numbering releases in numerical sequence. I stopped updating at 36.1. Currently, they're somewhere around v40 or so. You can check yours, by clicking the app's 3-dot menu (bottom left) and 'About Logos'.

So far (someone else to confirm) you'd see an AI choice in your 'Bible' search menu (the funny little star), as a non-subscriber.

As above, they let you know.

Kristin

There is no v.11 for the app. After v10, they began numbering releases in numerical sequence. I stopped updating at 36.1. Currently, they're somewhere around v40 or so.

Hi @DMB,

Interesting. I can understand they went from versions of v.8 v.9, v.10… but then instead of v.11, they just started counting the changes? So there have been 30 changes from the release of v.10? (40-10=30), or how did they get to "40" so fast? Also, when you stopped updating at 36.1, I understand that you turned auto-updates off, but it seems like it would prevent you from getting normal bug fixes also? Isn't that a problem? Did you turn off auto-updates to avoid AI too?

You can check yours, by clicking the app's 3-dot menu (bottom left) and 'About Logos'. So far (someone else to confirm) you'd see an AI choice in your 'Bible' search menu (the funny little star), as a non-subscriber. As above, they let you know.

Thank you for clarifying this. The three dots told me I am at 40.2.4. Hopefully that's ok. :/ I think it is since the AI thing lets you know. I looked at that article @Yasmin Stephen referred to (and I agree it was well written), and I see now that my searches are only "precise" (thankfully) while the AI thing has the "smart" option which I don't have.

Another thing I am kind of confused about (going back to your comment of the numbers above), is that some people really do seem to be on v.11, as when they send screenshots trying to help me with something, their toolbars are totally different. That is my main issue with not being about to buy other versions (until they give a non-subscription option), since it is confusing that the same functions are in two different places. So for those of us on v.10 a specific feature is somewhere, and on v.11 the same feature is somewhere else, which is just confusing. I don't care where it is, I just want it to match screenshots when I am trying to understand how to do something.

Aaron Hamilton

@Kristin DMB is correct. Currently, the only AI you would have access to is Smart Bible search. I have marked this in the screenshot below. Of course, AI is entirely optional - even for subscribers. As a nonsubscriber, you can execute 3 Smart Bible searches each month. Anything that says "Smart" or is marked by the AI symbol of two stars will use AI.

Kristin

@Kristin DMB is correct. Currently, the only AI you would have access to is Smart Bible search. I have marked this in the screenshot below. Of course, AI is entirely optional - even for subscribers. As a nonsubscriber, you can execute 3 Smart Bible searches each month. Anything that says "Smart" or is marked by the AI symbol of two stars will use AI.

Hi @Aaron Hamilton,

Thank you for clarifying this and for the screenshot. I just did a random search to test it, and I see it asks me if I want to try it for free. So I appreciate how clear it is.

Given that, if I click on "Fuzzy search" that is perfectly harmless and just a normal old-fashioned fuzzy search. I can tell the difference since like you said, all AI stuff has those two stars. I am 99.9% sure this is correct, but just felt safer asking abut the fuzzy search.

Bildschirmfoto 2025-03-23 um 18.41.32.png

DMB

@Kristin

Another thing I am kind of confused about (going back to your comment of the numbers above), is that some people really do seem to be on v.11, as when they send screenshots trying to help me with something, their toolbars are totally different.

The difference in the menu'ing, is non-subscribers have the old traditional menu; the subscribers have the new one. I like the older (quick access to icon-choices). Many like the new one. Mark said 'soon' non-subscribers will get the newer menu (sigh).

Regarding numbering, I think they jumped from 10 to 30 (but not sure).

MJ. Smith

Regarding numbering, I think they jumped from 10 to 30 (but not sure).

v 22 was a service release for v10; v23 was the start of the new scheme

Aaron Hamilton

I am 99.9% sure this is correct, but just felt safer asking abut the fuzzy search.

You're understanding this correctly.

instead of v.11, they just started counting the changes? So there have been 30 changes from the release of v.10? (40-10=30), or how did they get to "40" so fast?

They're not counting the changes; they're counting the releases. If you're curious, you can see the release notes here. The reason the numbers are climbing so rapidly is that previously, major updates were released approximately every 2 years. Currently, updates are being released every 6 weeks.

Kristin

The difference in the menu'ing, is non-subscribers have the old traditional menu; the subscribers have the new one. I like the older (quick access to icon-choices). Many like the new one. Mark said 'soon' non-subscribers will get the newer menu (sigh).

Hi @DMB,

Oh, I see. Thanks for clarifying this. I like the idea of the new toolbar for when people send screenshots, but if it limits customization, I would for sure agree with you that the non-subscriber one is better, as I like customizing toolbars.

v 22 was a service release for v10; v23 was the start of the new scheme

Hi @MJ. Smith,

Ok, thank you for clarifying this!

I am 99.9% sure this is correct, but just felt safer asking abut the fuzzy search.
You're understanding this correctly.

Hi @Aaron Hamilton ,

Ok, great. :)

They're not counting the changes; they're counting the releases. If you're curious, you can see the release notes here. The reason the numbers are climbing so rapidly is that previously, updates were released approximately every 2 years. Currently, updates are being released every 6 weeks.

Thank you for the link, I will take a look at it. Thanks also for explaining why the numbers are going up so fast, I had been wondering about that.

David Paul

It knows what you had for breakfast.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

WHY…WHY…WHY?????

Sorry to bring us all back to the original topic… but it was probably the change from Andersen-Forbes morphology to Logos Hebrew morph (some time around 2012).

To keep using the A-F morph, you'll need to use AFAT: https://ref.ly/logosres/afheb10?ref=BibleBHS.Ps10

EastTN

We need to help them by being vocal about what does and does not meet our needs, about when we would rather use third party software, and about how much accuracy we require in the data they provide.

Thanks for the insightful perspective, @MJ. Smith. From my perspective, I can get AI services from multiple sources. What I can't get anywhere else is a high-quality theological library system. That's a the core of my concern that Logos may at some point no longer be a good fit for me - the company seems to me to be focusing on almost anything else than the underlying library system.

Donovan R. Palmer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363929#Comment_1363929

@EastTN

I can't get anywhere else is a high-quality theological library system.

I am passionate about this as well, and in particular, I am keen to gain access to the most recent materials and tools to interact with them. Logos has my business because no one is even close to producing more materials in this kind of platform.

Also, Mark Barnes' blog on Logos' position on AI as very helpful, and I think balanced:

https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/35181728416397-How-Logos-uses-AI

(Sorry the link still does not render automatically)… but specifically under 'Use One":

But even in Smart Search, Logos does not rely on AI alone. Each smart search in Logos combines:
Lexical search – matching the exact words you type.
Semantic search – where AI understands what you mean.
Ranking and snippet generation – where AI pushes the most relevant articles to the top of the results and selects the best extract to display as a preview.

Some will feel Logos is not going far enough. Some will feel Logos should not be doing this at all. What we all can probably agree on, is the AI horse is out of the barn, and so the question we might ask is how can we put it to work for us in Biblical studies.

I like the ability to continue to run searches in Logos as I have in the past, and at the same time can jump into this Smart Search mode and allow it to uncover gems I might not have thought of. There are many times I have wondered if the results in a search are limited to my ability to build the best query, and so having Smart Search to give me another angle is very helpful.

Building on this, I am hopeful for a Perplexity type of environment where I can run a search, it curates some responses, but I can then ask followup questions. …but that's just me.

So, back to your point about a high quality library, I share your hope that Logos will continue to improve datasets and develop resources. What do we want to see next? What do we want to see improved?

I think we as customers, are the best steer for this by presenting our ideas and posing suggestions, to keep dataset and library standards where we hope they will be. The importance of this is that with the only competitor left to Logos languishing since its last major version update December 2022. there are not a lot of other places to look…

HJ. van der Wal

I also apologize for staying with the original topic…

@Bradley Grainger (Logos) Thank you for your answer although I am still curious why both the Logos morphology and the Westminster morphology (in Logos & Accordance) do not analyze לעתות as a status constructus. It would make sense if you assumed that בצרה is from צרה (as AFAT does) but not if it is derived from the root בצר:

DMB

This is getting tiresome, people intruding on the thread to discuss the OP's issue (joking). And interesting; I do remember when LHI was changed (not the year; the change). And the reasoning; there were some comments.

But returning to the 'current' discussion, I share EastTN's comments. And trying to rationalize, well, make AI better on Logos , or Logos tippy-toes around AI, misses the point … the continuing development of the core app and associated library.

Now, here, just my own opinion, but 'looks' like Faithlife is consolidating around Reformed (primary market) in its structural emphasis. A little this and that on the Catholic side, hints of Orthodox, and the discussion of Restoration is pretty much over. I call it 'Christian Bookstore'ing'. My guess is they're consolidating for efficiency. And AI is one of those … not a lot of staff needed etc. after the core is developed. High payback.

scooter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363916#Comment_1363916

DMB says 'The difference is the menuing.' …………I have the old menu, as I have L8.

My question is " Which menu?'' At the top, with icons Dashboard, Library, Search, etc, perhaps.

Or, maybe within a book/bible, upper left, to the right of the page square, where I see Search, Visual Filters, Factbook, etc.

Yet, mayhap this menu is contained in the box that appears when one highlights something?

DMB

So many menus, so little time!

DMB was referring to your 2nd choice … within book/bible … you have the old-fogey menu (like me).

Just earlier today, the poster was looking for a hamburger menu … another point of confusion! I thought … well, you have your Big Mac … .

scooter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363966#Comment_1363966

Thank U, DMB. I use ~5 things currently, so will be OK in the new, strange menu.

U raise a point on the hamburger menu. It is 3 dots, but there are 2 such flocks. Could it be the formed triangle, or the 3 dots stacked one on another? I indeed do not know. Please tell me.

MJ. Smith

First it is the kebab menu …. (okay, that terminology briefly and dropped for good reason in an international market)

Second, the three dots at the end of the application tool bar is the application menu.; the three dots at the end of a panel/resource tool bar is the panel/resource menu. In both cases, it has the same meaning "menu related to toolbar" I already have a bit of icon overload with Logos and would not be pleased to make yet a new one for such similar purposes. Sorry for assisting in the hijacking of the thread.

David Paul

The first person to respond brought up AI for no good reason…it OBVIOUSLY has nothing at all to do with my concern or the reason for it. Then off to the races. I will note additional LHI catastrophes in a different thread.

charlie

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1363862#Comment_1363862

what do you use logos for then? There are cheaper ways to get books.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1364195#Comment_1364195

Surprisingly, Logos is quite valuable without all its lazy-boy features. True!

charlie

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1364198#Comment_1364198

I have found that if you are only using the books, it’s more expensive than buying the books elsewhere online.
the only value I see on logos is the tools, which is why I buy all my books on it, even though they are pricier.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1364199#Comment_1364199

Charlie … there's more in Logos than the tools and AI … seriously! I suspect I use those features multiple times a day. I wouldn't dream of giving up my gorgeous Logos.

charlie

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1364202#Comment_1364202

I think what you are calling features, I was considering as tools.
What features are you referring to that are not tools or books?

My misunderstanding aside, I fully agree with you on not giving up our beautiful logos.

DMB

What features are you referring to that are not tools or books?

Well, the biggie for me is the CitedBy feature (I think I must use maybe 4 or 5 in my layout …. Qumran, Fathers, apocrypha/Pseudegraphia, etc). Then there's Text Comparisons (I have 5 of those for comparison within languages). Then I make major use of panel linking (I have maybe 40 lexicons in my layout, by language as an example). Everything in its place for the last 15 years! It's been a wonder!

The Logos tools (eg BWS, etc and AI) are fine … but for me, they do too much mix-and-matching, ignoring time-usage, geographical influence, etc. I let others enjoy the tools.

Kristin

Then there's Text Comparisons (I have 5 of those for comparison within languages). Then I make major use of panel linking (I have maybe 40 lexicons in my layout, by language as an example). Everything in its place for the last 15 years! It's been a wonder!

Hi @DMB,

I am just trying to visualize this in my mind and am having difficulty. How do you practically have so many things all crammed into one layout? Do you use a lot of floating windows? If they are all just tabs it seems like it would be impossible for it all to fit on the screen.

DMB

Sorry …. David … we're wildly off-subject (as you noticed).

@Kristin Yes, I use 6 windows. Below is my main one. Then, two for hebrew and greek each. One for dictionaries by type. One for commentaries (two MultiBook panels for maybe 20 sets), and then one for current reading. I've been using it, since Logos4! I'm a 'visual' person … I like things in their place for quick retrieval. Logos isn't my main app for Bible … he's my research assistant. And quite adept.

In the example below, on the left are the lexicons by language. I make use of the old 'library stacks on wheels' concept. Way back when, when space was a premium, you could roll the stacks back and forth to get to books. I do that for the lexicons. When I'm in greek, the greek set (old library stack) gets the space. When on hebrew, greek disappears. Ditto for aramaic, latin, syriac, and coptic.

On the right, are all my Text Comparisons. They're all linked, so they automatically switch activation by language.

Kristin

@Kristin Yes, I use 6 windows. Below is my main one. Then, two for hebrew and greek each. One for dictionaries by type. One for commentaries (two MultiBook panels for maybe 20 sets), and then one for current reading. I've been using it, since Logos4! I'm a 'visual' person … I like things in their place for quick retrieval. Logos isn't my main app for Bible … he's my research assistant. And quite adept.

Hi @DMB,

Thank you for the screenshot, and that is pretty intense. I am pretty visual as well, and likewise, everything has to be exactly were it is supposed to be, so the "one layout" situation has been pretty rough. The floating windows help some, thankfully, but then random unrelated things get linked to my main layout, compared to being able to just have it as another open layout. Thank you again for the screenshot.

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1364198#Comment_1364198

This!