Does Logos Hate John MacArthur?

Chuck Kelley · May 13

I'm involved in a local small group bible study. We just finished up the book of Job using the MacArthur Bible Study Series. Everyone in the group used paper copies of the study book but I prefer to use Logos on my iPad (I'm trying to keep as much of my study/notes as possible in the same platform, Logos). The Job Bible Study was great and the paper version and the Logos version are exactly page-for-page the same. Using Logos I was even able to lead the study and say things like "on Page 18" because the Logos edition was exactly the same as the printed copy. It was great!

Well…. We decided to do Romans next using the same John MacArthur's Bible Study Series as the guide. The leader ordered us all physical bible study books but since I prefer using Logos on my iPad, I also purchased the 'same' study guide on Logos. Well… they don't match. They are 'close', but not exactly the same. They have the same title and author but different covers and slightly different text. When I compare the copyright dates, the printed version is 2007 and the Logos version is 2000 and from different publishers. This causes massive confusion when trying to do a bible study with a group because the text is similar, but not the same. So I can't read portions of the guide out loud to the group, or even follow along with others.

Here are links: Paper version, Logos Version

I can purchase an ebook version that IS page-for-page the same, but I have to go to either Olive Tree or ChristianBook.com. Of course there is no way to put either of those into Logos.

When I think about this discrepancy with the Romans Bible Study guide from MacArthur and the glaring lack of a 2nd edition of the MacArthur Study Bible in Logos (which is finally available as a preorder), I find myself asking provocative questions:

Is Logos behind behind the times and slow to update out of date texts?

Does Logos have a fundamental or theological issue with John MacArthur?

Is Logos trying to influence 'us' users by making it hard to study John MacArthur so we will throw up our hands in frustration and use a different author's bible study or study bible?

Is Logos just unable to acquire rights to MacArthur's work because the publisher is withholding the rights from Logos?

Did I make a mistake building my 3000+ book library in Logos and should have invested all that money in Olive Tree instead?

(FYI: I'm not trying to be obstinate, or get people fired up. I'm genuinely questioning, and possibility regretting, my choice of Logos over Olive Tree. I'm looking for a response from Logos setting me at ease and providing an explanation that shows that my observations are wrong.)

DMB · May 13

Yes, Chuck, you're being obstinate. And trying to get people fired up.

Seriously, a difference in publisher/dates and you'd trash Logos? Given all the variables in book resale?

Personally, I think they spend too much time on MacArthur. Just illustrating that everyone has preferences.

Rick Mansfield (Logos) · May 13

@Chuck Kelley I assure you there's no conspiracy here :-)

We have over 200,000 titles. Publishers do not always alert us when new editions are released.

Moreover, we have an extremely broad user based across the theological spectrum. We do not make efforts to work against a particular author or theological tradition. In fact, every day, we license content that any of us individually might not personally agree with. It doesn't matter. My perspective has always been that the purchase of content outside of my own convictions by others helps the financial bottom line so that we can also produce the content which I might most favor. Having said that, I probably have more content in my own personal Logos library (that I pay for myself) that is outside of my tradition and convictions than what is inside of it.

I would respectfully ask you to please always assume the best of us. We're here to equip you in whatever you believe would help you most. We're not running any secret agendas to sway our customers in one theological direction or another. If any particular title is something that users will want and purchase, we will do our best to provide it as we are able.

Jeremy White · May 13

Hey Chuck,

Like a lot of people here who are actually using Logos, it ends up being a love/hate relationship. We love the things it does well and the we find helpful and then in the same breath we find certain things tedious, annoying or agravating and we wish they were fixed or updated. It's OK for both things to be true and, at least for me, is pretty much standard with every piece of software I use regularly.

That said, your provocative questions actually have pretty mundane responses:

Is Logos behind behind the times and slow to update out of date texts?

Pretty much. I can only imagine the huge backlog of work they have.

Does Logos have a fundamental or theological issue with John MacArthur?

Given the wide range of authors and perspectives available in their catalog. Nope.

No doubt there are individual staff that don't care for MacArthur and others that are big fans. That may have some impact around the edges in terms of work priorities; but I suspect the primary driving factor is their estimation of demand from customers.

Is Logos trying to influence 'us' users by making it hard to study John MacArthur so we will throw up our hands in frustration and use a different author's bible study or study bible?

Nope. They'd much rather you be excited about spending more money with them on the titles you want.

Is Logos just unable to acquire rights to MacArthur's work because the publisher is withholding the rights from Logos?

Possibly. That whole area gets arcane pretty quickly and is often shrouded in various confidentiality and commercial sensitivities. It could be that your best bet is to contact the publisher and ask them to push from their end.

Did I make a mistake building my 3000+ book library in Logos and should have invested all that money in Olive Tree instead?

Assuming you actively wanted all 3000+ books it is highly likely that not all of them are available on the OT platform.

As to regrets. I think your story of how Logos was a great tool that assisted during the Job study is really cool, and I share your frustration that the next book study hasn't worked out so well. I'm a big fan of taking the wins and dealing with the frustrations as best I can, just like I have with other tools. For Logos, as a user since 2004ish, I would say its been around 80% wins. As a confession I would say at least some of the remaning 20% has been because of lack of understanding or skill on my part or sometimes because I want something to happen quicker. For me personally, the investment has had a suitable return.

DAL · May 13

Oh chucky, chucky! Nobody hates anyone here, you’re just taking the other extreme 😂 You remind me of another guy who complained that NT Wright was getting too much publicity here 😂 Why can’t people just try to be happy without trying to instigate trouble? 😁

Chuck Kelley · May 13

@DMB I really was not 'trying' to cause a scene, but I was super frustrated and that probably came out a little too strong. I'm sorry about that. However, I do want to respond to 2 things you said. First, I don't feel like it's unreasonable to expect a software like Logos to update a book that was updated 16 years ago. Second, I don't understand the "variables in book resale". I just see that one store seems to always have the most updated materials and the other doesn't. I don't know anything about how the sausage is made, I just want to be able to buy the sausage.

@Rick Mansfield (Logos) Thank you! That was a great answer! I do REALLY love Logos, and I get super frustrated sometimes, but you are right, I should never assume anything negative about the staff. I'm sure the staff are all dedicated to the platform and probably love it more than I do. In fact I'm sure many are SUPER fans and see Logos as a lifestyle and not a job. So…. I'll make you a promise, I'll reach out in the future instead of venting frustration here. Ultimately I just want Logos to be better. When I see areas that need some extra love, I want to point those out in a constructive and helpful way. In the future I'll email you first.

@Jeremy White Although they may be mundane, I appreciate your answers anyway. I do have two comments. First, you said that Logos is basing their content choices on their "estimation of demand from customers" and I completely agree with that statement. I think one of 'my' issues is that I'm not a typical customer. I'm not in Seminary (although I would love to be able to do that someday). I'm also not a Pastor, Preacher, Teacher, or academic. I'm just a normal guy who fell in love with Christ and can't get enough. I just want to learn and learn and learn and learn. Logos felt like the 'best' tool to use for that. Since I would love to go to Seminary someday, I figured it would make sense to learn the tool that I might need to use someday. Anyway…. My point is that I'm not the typical Logos user and I need to be reminded of that. Logos isn't really for people like me, but I love it anyway. The second comment is that I found your point about 80% and 20% extremely helpful. Logos doesn't do everything I want it to, but I'm also a new user and I'm not using it 'as intended'. So the problem is really me, not Logos.

@DAL You are right. I wasn't trying to instigate trouble but my frustrations came through way too strong. Thanks for pointing that out.

So…. Thank you all, I do really LOVE Logos and I just want it to be perfect! 😉

Mattillo · May 13

I see your heart in the question Chuck. Though I have not ventured down that path quite as far, I do share some of your sentiments. The flip side I tend to use a lot of MacArthur books so I notice errors in them more often. I don't doubt Logos' intentions and I believe they are trying their best at times. I will say though that there are a lot of MacArthur resources that need fixing. Whether it is on the Logos side or the publisher side I do not know. I do wish someone from Logos would speak with Moody and ask for updated files on some of these books (where the edition seems the same but content no). Recent examples are his Matthew and Hebrews commentary missing text that is found in the print books and even more recently, @Kenute P. Curry found more text missing from his one volume bible commentary. Unfortunately I would say that you cannot 100% trust some MacArthur resources in Logos. I still buy them in Logos but I always buy a print edition to be safe.

I will say @Rick Mansfield (Logos) has been awesome at getting some stuff done and moving products along. Maybe he might know someone who can look into these issues?

Mattillo · May 13

On a side note, if I had to guess it is the publisher giving Logos bad files (or editing text after sending the files out)…

MJ. Smith · May 13

I must admit to being old fashioned — too much time spent with the dead-tree format. With the dead-tree format, occasionally a book came with an errata card which I either taped inside so I didn't loose it or copied the corrections into the text. It never occurred to me to expect the publisher to send me another copy of the book when they made printing corrections. If they produced a new edition, I expected to buy a new copy.

When I pay a premium for Logos/Verbum books, I expect them to correct their own errors. I do not expect to pay a higher cost for publishers who are sloppy and frequently change the text between printings. Not do I want to pay for the overhead of such a service by Logos. I am perfectly happy to live with dead-tree level service and cost … and give praise I'm not dealing with hand copied manuscripts.

@Chuck Kelley, my point being that speaking only for myself, I don't want to pay for the extra overhead your expectations adds to Logos. I have no idea what the majority opinion is.

mab · May 13

It was a John MacArthur CD that made me a Logos user. There's almost no way to be completely linear between print and electronic resources. My humblest suggestion is to use a Bible study resource as a starting place, not your distribution. Make your own Bible Study. The newest version of Logos makes this a doable reality.

DAL · May 13

No worries chuck! I used to come on too strong a long time ago too. And yes, some things DO frustrate a lot, you just gotta learn to live with them 👍😁👌

Does Logos Hate John MacArthur?

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