Support Users Who Don't Want AI and/or Subscriptions
I will be posting my message to Logos Customer Service. The reply I received, which was courteous, asked me to start a discussion here, so here it goes.
My Message:
Let me start on a positive note: I have been a Logos user for more than 20 years. I remember when the Mac version was first released. I have integrated Logos into my regular study habits. There has been much profit. Thank you for providing such a useful app.
Now for some constructive criticism. Ever since the new version with AI was released, banners and ads have been invading the app. I understand that the business model is changing. I remain unconvinced that AI has a substantive place in Bible study. I personally resent the constant pressure to subscribe. I already have a sizable investment in my library and I would like uncluttered access to it. I am well aware of the desire you have for me to subscribe. If I want to, I will. Until then, please remove the ads from the app I have invested in. There are plenty of free apps that I could use if I wanted less screen space to work in. Same thing with the floating insight button. At least make it easy to disable. I do not want it.
Please take this feedback seriously. You are at risk of alienating customers who can’t or won’t pony up for a subscription.
Their reply:
Thank you so much for the time you have spent with us, we really appreciate it.
I understand your concerns regarding ads and the floating insight button in the Logos app. Unfortunately, we do not have a way to remove ads or disable the insight button permanently. Your feedback is valuable, and we appreciate your long-term support and investment in our platform.
I will be reporting this, and it would be really helpful for us if you could please post about this at
(screenshots from mobile and desktop apps with annoying ads)
I can only assume when they say that "we do not have a way to remove ads or disable the insight button" that the we is Customer Service. OK. But certainly the code writers who put them in can take them back out or make them less obtrusive. PLEASE DO IT!
I may be alone in this. But I doubt it. I have paid (handsomely) for a product. I do not want the new product. So respect the history and preserve future resource sales by not chasing me away. I have already become a second-class citizen by not being a subscriber. Not a great business decision, in my opinion.
M1 MacBook Pro (2020)
iPad Air 4th Gen
Comments
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I have no problem with Logos promoting its products and services. If it will help to maintain and improve its existing services and products, and help provide new ones, I say keep it up. BTW, I just ignore the ads.
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The only way ads should ever be shown is if you are using completely free stuff. If you've purchased anything at all, then you should be able to access that content without seeing an ad.
I think Logos is going to find these ads are going to turn more and more people away.
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I appreciate a different perspective, although I obviously take a different view. The ads are a new thing since the last version dropped. I think it reflects a very different business approach with which I disagree (AI infrastructure requires ongoing revenue streams, i.e. subscriptions). They have always used their web site and more traditional advertising in the past. No issue there. I just don't want it in the product I paid for. Advertise to potential new users!
Are you a subscriber? I am curious if that has any impact on your opinion.
M1 MacBook Pro (2020)
iPad Air 4th Gen
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@Ryan Schildroth captures my view well:
I appreciate a different perspective, although I obviously take a different view. The ads are a new thing since the last version dropped. I think it reflects a very different business approach with which I disagree (AI infrastructure requires ongoing revenue streams, i.e. subscriptions). They have always used their web site and more traditional advertising in the past. No issue there. I just don't want it in the product I paid for. Advertise to potential new users!
Traditional advertising through emails, websites, and promotions is great. But it's frustrating for a product you've paid for to start taking on the feel of an ad-supported app.
Are you a subscriber? I am curious if that has any impact on your opinion.
For what it's worth, I'm not a subscriber. But I'm more than happy to pay for an upgrade to gain access to new features. (Before this most recent move to a subscription model, I had purchased every new version back to 2011.)
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Thanks for the thoughtful – it’s clear this is something many of you care deeply about, and I appreciate the way you’re sharing feedback.
Our aim with subscription messaging is not to turn Logos into an “ad-supported” product. Instead, we’re trying something new: where a feature is part of a subscription, we'll now sometimes offer a limited version to all users. We're doing this to give everyone a taste of what’s possible and let them decide if the full version is worth it. We hoped this would be a helpful middle ground: useful functionality for non-subscribers, and clearer visibility into what a subscription includes. We started this with Smart Bible Search in version 40, and most people appreciated that.
That said, I hear you. If you’ve made a significant investment in Logos, even without a subscription, you shouldn’t feel like a second-class user. And if the messaging is getting in the way of your study, especially in areas you’ve already paid for, that matters.
Usually, these messages only appear if you engage with the feature, and that's optional. This is an exception: the banner you mentioned here appears even if you're trying to highlight some text, for example, and can’t be turned off. I can see that could be frustrating. I'm already discussing with the team how we can improve this, given the feedback in this and other threads. We want to respect the experience of long-time, non-subscribing customers, particularly those who’ve already made a substantial investment.
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Mark, your answer is so interesting:
- Logos is a study tool, kind of like in the college library. It has no place in study as worship ( the Word).
- Any concerns are inconvenience concerns (bothers the user, makes them feel less than others).
Just looking at how the new staff rationalizes their decision process. I do remember Rosie's opinion.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I think you're reading much too much into what I didn't say. I try to be focused with my comments on this forum. The original question was about Bible study, and I replied accordingly. Had it been about worship, I would have responded differently.
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Thank you for your reply. To be honest, I have not used any AI features in Logos and don’t anticipate doing so in the near future. I want to treat it carefully and understand it more before jumping in. In my view, Logos is a super-portable electronic library and study note-taking system. That’s what I want it to be.
Please do make the AI test drive opt-in (or at least make it opt-out!). I think it would be completely appropriate to highlight new capabilities in release notes or banners during the update process and to invite users in. Or do a periodic “full preview” users could do.One thing I noticed in your reply was the term “non-subscribing users”, and that is the class system I am feeling. How about “standard users” and “subscribed users” as a way of identifying customers by a positive attribute instead of a negative one?
Thanks again.
M1 MacBook Pro (2020)
iPad Air 4th Gen
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Add supported products remind me of the first episode of the latest season of Black Mirrors on Netflix 😂 Watch it to see what I’m talking about 😂
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Exactly.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Thanks for responding above and on my other thread. I'll continue engaging here as this seems to be the main discussion.
My take on it is very simple, and based simply on user experience, esp for long time investors such as myself.
- Please don't force adverts into the study parts of the UI e.g. the Insights popup on mobile. As mentioned on the other thread, this cramps the space for useful, wanted content, and demands attention, and causes irritation. When I'm in the depths of stiudy, which I do daily in Logos, I want to stay in the zone and not be interrupted by advertising or any other push content. The two examples I posted can be seen on the other thread.
- We all know Logos needs to advertise and make money, so I'm happy for you to advertise to your hearts' content in the Dashboard on desktop/mobile. Then I know I will see adverts if I access that section of the Desktop and Mobile apps. Does that sound like a fair balance?
- Make any mobile advertising/subscription banners hideable with a similar option to the desktop if they must appear.
My thoughts are not in any way related to the place of AI in Bible study or worship etc. AI can be a useful companion and it's here to stay so we may as well embrace and learn to harness it.
But let's be the master of AI, but please allow your customers to tailor their experience of it too.
Thanks again,
Richard3 -
I would think, but maybe it's just me, that word of mouth from happy Logos users would generate more sales—far more—than unwanted adverts in an environment of annoyed users, and their word of mouth.
ChatGPT offered this fascinating insight:
🎵
I might be wrong—but here’s my plea,
Word of mouth beats ads, you see!
Happy users spread the cheer,
Bringing curious others near.But flood the place with pop-up pain?
You’ll drive folks off—again, again!
Joyful fans will do much more
Than banners users just ignore!
🎵3 -
Man put them in, man can take them out!!
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Well, 42.0.1 didn’t change it.
M1 MacBook Pro (2020)
iPad Air 4th Gen
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The Logos Plus advert has now disappeared from the Word section of the Insights popup but it’s still there in the Verse section. This is true both on Android and iOS versions.
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I would just like to offer a perspective I haven't seen on this thread yet. For background, I can't stand subscriptions (I actually bought v.10 specifically to prevent the subscription), and I don't personally believe AI has a place in theological research. I understand others have different views, and that is fine, but that is just my personal experience.
That said, the people I associate with tend to be like-minded, and over the past month several of my friends have told me that they are not interested in even considering Logos, specifically because there is no way to outright buy the program. When they tell me that, I can only say "ok," because I feel like that too. If I had not yet bought v.10 and only now tried to buy the program and was met with the ONLY option being a subscription, I would not have pursued it.
What personally makes sense to me is either of two options. The first option is that people have the option to buy v.10, or subscribe to the recent version. That way people who want to subscribe can, but people who see a subscription as being a deterrent would at least have an option.
The other idea, which might be another variation of the same, is that things which are constantly changing are subscription, such as AI, while static features could be bought. Also, I might be wrong, but it seems like the people who don't want AI are often the same people who don't want to subscribe, which would work well.
In case it helps for perspective, one of these people I know, after realizing that there was no non-subscription option, was wondering about the free version. I wasn't actually sure, so I asked it here, but I basically came away with two main points. First, no one seems to know what is actually part of the free version. Second, whatever is included, it seemed to be less powerful than the free software he is currently using. So it seems like people I know who do not want to subscribe, I need to just tell them that they need to look elsewhere?
When I originally called sales to buy Logos, I was honest with the sales rep that I was buying it since I had heard of a looming subscription being introduced. Either intentionally or unintentionally, he kind of downplayed it saying he wasn't sure if that would happen, but further, even if it did it would likely be an experiment to try for just a time. So I hope that is the case. To be clear, I think a subscription option is a good idea for some people, but I think there needs to be an option for those of us who are against it enough to deter a potential sale.
Thank you for considering this feedback.1
