Fun Greek translation challenge

shark tacos

How would you translate Isaiah 53:7 in the LXX? In particular I'm looking at the first part (v 7a) which reads:

καὶ
αὐτὸς διὰ τὸ κεκακῶσθαι οὐκ
ἀνοίγει τὸ στόμα,

Most of this is easy,

"And through the

________
he did not open
the mouth"

the hard part is the word κεκακῶσθαι. What does it mean?

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Comments

shark tacos

Let me start you off:

κεκακῶσθαι is the


is the perfect passive indicative of
the verb

κακκάω

which the Logos LXX dictionary (along with LJS and Middle Liddell) say means

"cacare"

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138096#Comment_138096

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138096#Comment_138096

Let me start you off:

κεκακῶσθαι is the is the perfect passive indicative of the verb

κακκάω

which the Logos LXX dictionary (along with LJS and Middle Liddell) say means

"cacare"

Actually it's the perf pass inf of κακόω "to mistreat." "He did not open [his] mouth because of [his] mistreatment."

shark tacos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138099#Comment_138099

Actually it's the perf pass inf of κακόω "to mistreat." "He did not open [his] mouth because of [his] mistreatment."

Hi George,

Looks like this might be yet
another mistake in the Logos morphology, and a pretty funny one at
that!

I ran κεκακῶσθαι
through Perseus and (as you said) it confirmed that it comes
from κακόω “to mistreat”.

Logos on the other hand says it
comes from κακκάω “to defecate,
“and through the crap he did not open his mouth”

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138103#Comment_138103

Actually it's the perf pass inf of κακόω "to mistreat." "He did not open [his] mouth because of [his] mistreatment."

Hi George,

Looks like this might be yet another mistake in the Logos morphology, and a pretty funny one at that!

I ran κεκακῶσθαι through Perseus and (as you said) it confirmed that it comes from κακόω “to mistreat”.

Logos on the other hand says it comes from κακκάω “to defecate, “and through the crap he did not open his mouth”

Hint: Don't use the old LXX. Use the LXX with Logos morphology which is correct.

shark tacos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138106#Comment_138106

Does that LXX exist in L3?

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138099#Comment_138099

Keep Smiling [:)]

shark tacos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138109#Comment_138109

That's Logos4. Take a look at it in Logos 3.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138109#Comment_138109

Keep Smiling

Uh-uh. Major boo-boo. Never use an interlinear.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138107#Comment_138107

Does that LXX exist in L3?

No, it has a logos4 extension.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138114#Comment_138114

That's Logos4. Take a look at it in Logos 3.

Logos 1.2.2 (Mac equivalent of Logos 3) - could open resources - Bible Word Study opened to useful place - Dictionary manually scrolled since lemma's spelled differently:

Keep Smiling [:)]

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138119#Comment_138119

Uh-uh. Major boo-boo. Never use an interlinear.

Living and learning - LXX lemma's and resource selection options different:

Keep Smiling [:)]

shark tacos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138129#Comment_138129

K. Smile,

I see you have the Lexham Greek-English Septuagint.
Does that come with any packages or did you need to purchase it
separately?

shark tacos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138131#Comment_138131

Take a look at this. This is the Logos LXX in L4. The Lemma is right but it still gives the wrong gloss in both the info window and the popup.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138131#Comment_138131

K. Smile,

I see you have the Lexham Greek-English Septuagint.
Does that come with any packages or did you need to purchase it
separately?

All Scholar base packages include Lexham Greek-English Septuagint Interlinear => http://www.logos.com/comparison

Keep Smiling [:)]

DominicM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138119#Comment_138119

Uh-uh. Major boo-boo. Never use an interlinear.

HEHE George saw that quote coming, I am not surprised, love the way you are so matter of fact and frank.

Some of us, however (without a seminary education) need to use these tools as stepping stones to get at the deeper truthes on the other side of the river of confusion (Original Langauge Text).

They may not all be perfect stones, some may be slippy, and some may be wobbly and precarious, and some may be slanted the wrong way, and the odd one may cause us to fall in the river if we step on it wrong (or it is misaligned)..

But my question is, "Is it better to try and cross and maybe fall in (occasionally).. or sit on the bank dreaming of what might be..?"

Of course learning NT Greek is the best and I am trying, however, given that I work a 57hr week, so there isn't much if any time for that, even keepin a devotional time is hard enough at present

Until then I guess I will need to rely on the Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138134#Comment_138134

Take a look at this. This is the Logos LXX in L4. The Lemma is right but it still gives the wrong gloss in both the info window and the popup.

What is that you have displayed in the right panel? I don't see that.

shark tacos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138171#Comment_138171

its the information window

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138188#Comment_138188

its the information window

I still don't see it. If I mouse-over on κεκακῶσθαι, I do get a pop-up at the bottom "κακόω: verb, perfect, either middle or passive, infinitive: 3 ענה; verb, nifal, passive, pure verb participle, singlular, masculine, normal; ..." Then comes the strange part "Strong's Hebrew #6031; cacare." The last is wrong. Never use Strong's.

shark tacos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138197#Comment_138197

Do you have the information window open?

I think the gloss is actually Grammcord not Strongs, but in any case the problem is that it is linking to the wrong lemma. In Logos4 this still happens in the gloss, and in the Ralph's LXX lexical entry is also tagged wrong. The newer Logos LXX connects to the correct lemma for the lexical entry, but the gloss is still wrong.I can of course ignore a gloss, but I'm just saying it is definitely an error...

In Logos 3 (which I still use because Logos 4 is so impossibly slow in comparison that I have completely given up on it) the lemma is tagged completely wrong. I really wish that Logos would make the Logos LXX available for version 3. They have made other cross grade resources available, so there is really no reason I can see that they could not do the same here, and given how crappy the old LXX is, and how important LXX study is, it would seem to me that this should be a priority. If they make any resource available, it should be this one.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138202#Comment_138202

Do you have the information window open?

I think the gloss is actually Grammcord not Strongs, but in any case the problem is that it is linking to the wrong lemma. In Logos4 this still happens in the gloss, and in the Ralph's LXX lexical entry is also tagged wrong. The newer Logos LXX connects to the correct lemma for the lexical entry, but the gloss is still wrong.I can of course ignore a gloss, but I'm just saying it is definitely an error...

In Logos 3 (which I still use because Logos 4 is so impossibly slow in comparison that I have completely given up on it) the lemma is tagged completely wrong. I really wish that Logos would make the Logos LXX available for version 3. They have made other cross grade resources available, so there is really no reason I can see that they could not do the same here, and given how crappy the old LXX is, and how important LXX study is, it would seem to me that this should be a priority. If they make any resource available, it should be this one.

In answer to your subsequent post, it doesn't seem to work that way in L4 so I don't have the info window open. I have several very serious complaints against L4 such as morph searching and notes which makes it impossible to use L4 for study purposes though I do use it for reading and some checking of words. I'm still using L3 for study. We'll probably get 1,000 cosmetic changes to L4 before they finally get around to making it useable for study. I'm getting sick of the whole affair. FIRST MAKE IT WORK, THEN MAKE IT PRETTY !

I got on my soap box and diverged from a point I intended to make: I never found the speed of L4 to be a problem. It's almost instantaneous for me.

shark tacos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138205#Comment_138205

I use the information window a lot in study. In Logos 3 if you hover over a word you will see lexical information displayed instantly in the info window. In Logos 4 this same function can take up to 5 full seconds which is tediously slow.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138210#Comment_138210

I use the information window a lot in study. In Logos 3 if you hover over a word you will see lexical information displayed instantly in the info window. In Logos 4 this same function can take up to 5 full seconds which is tediously slow.

It's impossible for me to say what the problem might be with YOUR SYSTEM, but, when I make a point of looking for the information popup (rare), it's there instantly.

shark tacos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138213#Comment_138213

the popup is not the same as the information window.

The popup is instant. The info window is not. This is a known bug in L4.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138221#Comment_138221

the popup is not the same as the information window.

The popup is instant. The info window is not. This is a known bug in L4.

The info window, which I never use, does take a tad longer. Here's what I get

κακόω

kakoō to harm, mistreat

cacare

κακόω fut. κακώσω; 1 aor. ἐκάκωσα; pf. 2 sg. κεκάκωκας 3 Km 17:20. Pass.: 1 aor. ἐκακώθην LXX; pf. inf. κεκακῶσθαι. ① to cause harm to, harm, mistreat w. acc. (Hom.+; PTebt 407, 9 [II a.d.]; LXX; TestSol 8:11; Test12Patr; Philo, Spec. Leg. 2, 135; Jos., Vi. 121; Just., D. 109, 3 [s. Mi 4:6]) Ac 7:6 (Gen 15:13), 19; 12:1; 18:10; 1 Pt 3:13. Pass. 1 Cl 16:7 (Is 53:7). ② to cause someone to think badly about another, make angry, embitter
τὰς ψυχάς τινων κατά τινος poison the minds of some persons against another Ac 14:2 (cp. Jos., Ant. 16, 10; pass., 16, 205; 262; Ps 105:32).—DELG s.v. κακό
. M-M. TW.

BDAG
verb, perfect, either middle or passive, infinitive
ענה
ʿnh humble; be humble; to humble
II ענה. A.: MHeb. DSS (Kuhn Konkordanz 167) pi. JArm. pa. to torment, humiliate; Ph. pi. to oppress, subjugate (Donner-R. Inschriften no. 26 A 1:18, 19, 20), Mo. pi. to attack (Donner-R. Inschriften no. 181:5, 6; cf. Jean-H. Dictionnaire 218); Arb. ʿanā (ʿnw) to be humble, subservient, obedient (Wehr-Cowan 650a), OSArb. ʿnw to be humble, be subject to (Conti 210a; Müller 81); as yet (?) the root is not attested in Ugaritic :: a) Gibson Myths² 154b on Dietrich-L. Texte 1, 2:i:26, 28 and Dietrich-L. Texte 1, 16:vi:58; b) van Selms UF 2 (1970):259f on Dietrich-L. Texte 1, 2:i:[18], 35; on a) see Aistleitner 2060: ʿny to answer, and on b) Aistleitner 2061a: ʿnn messenger, cf. Caquot-S. 129^q. qal: pf. עָנִיתִי; impf. יַעֲנֶה, אֶעֱנֶה, יַעֲנוּ; pt. עֹנֶה Mal 212; —1. (THAT 2:341f) to be wretched, emaciated (sheep without a shepherd) Zech 102, cf. Rudolph KAT 13/4:190 :: Delekat VT 14 (1964):42¹ and I. Willi-Plein BBB 42 (1974):15 rd. nif. יֵעָנוּ, alt. cj. וְנָעוּ or יָנוּעוּ, cf. BHS; —2. …

HAL
verb, nifal, passive, pure verb participle, singular, masculine, normal
Strong’s Hebrew #6031 6031עָנָה,עָנָה [ʿanah /aw·naw/] v. A primitive root [possibly rather ident. with 6030 through the idea of looking down or browbeating]; TWOT 1651, 1652; GK 6700 and 6701; 84 occurrences; AV translates as "afflict" 50 times, "humble" 11 times, "force" five times, "exercised" twice, "sing" twice, "Leannoth" once, "troubled" once, "weakened" once, and translated miscellaneously 11 times. 1 (Qal) to be occupied, be busied with. 2 to afflict, oppress, humble, be afflicted, be bowed down. 2a (Qal). 2a1 to be put down, become low. 2a2 to be depressed, be downcast. 2a3 to be afflicted. 2a4 to stoop. 2b (Niphal). 2b1 to humble oneself, bow down. 2b2 to be afflicted, be humbled. 2c (Piel). 2c1 to humble, mishandle, afflict. 2c2 to humble, be humiliated. 2c3 to afflict. 2d4 to humble, weaken oneself. 2d (Pual). 2d1 to be afflicted. 2d2 to be humbled. 2e (Hiphil) to afflict. 2f (Hithpael). 2f1 to humble oneself. 2f2 to be afflicted.
Even then, however, it doesn't take very long (2 sec?). I think you must be suffering from a desire for instant gratification. I could tolerate the brief wait if that were really necessary. This isn't a race (10,000 definitions is 1.2 secs !). I see that it still has the nasty habit of showing info for whatever word you happen to place under the mousepointer -- maddening.

shark tacos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138267#Comment_138267

Right. The part where it says "cacare" is the incorrect gloss.

I could of course just ignore that in L4. But like a lot of folks you and I are still using L3 until they get L4 to actually work.

In L3 the whole thing (the gloss, the lemma, the Bible study tool, the whole nine yards is connected to the wrong lemma:

"to poop"

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/138197#Comment_138197

its the information window

I still don't see it. If I mouse-over on κεκακῶσθαι, I do get a pop-up at the bottom "κακόω: verb, perfect, either middle or passive, infinitive: 3 ענה; verb, nifal, passive, pure verb participle, singlular, masculine, normal; ..." Then comes the strange part "Strong's Hebrew #6031; cacare." The last is wrong. Never use Strong's.

If you Display Inline text the Greek word isn't aligned with any Hebrew to cacare about! This goes for the whole verse 53:7 and more ... I sent an email to revint@logos.com.