Updates, indexing, etc need a way to stop them
Action Point to the following:
I know it has been pointed out already,
but there needs to be an effective way to either shut down updating of
all sorts (indexing, library updates, etc), even if that means starting
over (though better if it can be continued later), or to have it run in a way that will release the system when it
is needed for something else (This would be something like the Option B,
Bob mentioned as a solution to the indexing problem).
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I have been kindly asked by by wife to report this as a problem. (I know it has been reported before, but I now have a real life story to go with it.)
I turned on Libronix a few hours before my wife was to teach an online class (my mistake), with the intent to look at something and shut it down.
Turning it on started Updatating the library, indexing, etc. I shut down V4, but the little blue icon was still there with no way to shut it off (I can pause, but not shut off and it has been pointed out that pausing uses almost as many system resources as indexing). I then used task manager to shut it down (I thought).
Later, my wife started teaching her online class but none of the students could hear her clearly. We had to restart the computer (which on our netbook does take some time). The little blue icon was still running after a restart (good to know, but a problem in this case). I paused the indexing. Fortunately (and to my surprise) it did clear up enough resources for my wife to continue her class.
Fortunately my wife is an excellent teacher that the school doesn't
want to lose and they ended up apologizing for her needing to teach
later than usual and she has very patient students that waited and weren't upset.
Rob
www.3rdcultureliving.com - Simple Abundant Legacy
Comments
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Hi, we're hoping to have an update management system to control the updates as well as the indexer, and we are working on solutins to the indexer as well. Hopefully before the 4.0 release, if not then probably as 4.0a or something.
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Hi George,
Thanks for all your hard work. I would think it would be in Logos' best interests to have the indexer, updater etc. working well in a "management system" before 4.0 is released. People I know who use Libronix will go crazy with the way it works now and I would guess they may be asking for a lot of help when or just after they make their purchase. IMHO
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JoanKorte said:
Hi George,
Thanks for all your hard work. I would think it would be in Logos' best interests to have the indexer, updater etc. working well in a "management system" before 4.0 is released. People I know who use Libronix will go crazy with the way it works now and I would guess they may be asking for a lot of help when or just after they make their purchase. IMHO
I do agree with Joan on this point... you guys are really working hard to respond to our concerns but I as these issues stand I think they will distract from the great things that have done in 4.0...readig between the lines you have a release date that you have set in concrete... maybe a launch at some conference or the like... I understand that thinking and the difficulty that might cause if this is the case...but somehow ( and I do feel for the families of these guys that are working to solve these issues)... if at all possible issues like this need to have a better implementation in the 4.0 release rather than a 4.0a.....I think this is even more pertinant now that Zondervan is moving over to the Logos platform.... you don't want those users who make the switch to get a bad first up impression of Logos Bible Software... us hardcore users will push through the pain barrier, even if we kick and squeal.... others without the backgrounding may just say its all too hard and decide to go with a competitor.
I suspect 4.0 would be released before Zondervan products came on board - surely you wouln't be expecting those coming over from Zondervan to learn L3 and then a mont later switch to L4....so this might also be playing on Logos timetable for L4....if L4 does come before Zondervan hits Libronix those users might well be looking at the inital recations to this new software they are being encouraged to switch over too ..so first impressions of L4 for new or potential new users I think is important.... will the bells, whistles and marketing fluff overcome these particular problems on first impressions ... I don't know....
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I agree with you Joan, and Andrew, however the decisions really are not up to me. I'm doing my best to stress the importance of these issues.
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George Allakhverdyan said:
I agree with you Joan, and Andrew, however the decisions really are not up to me. I'm doing my best to stress the importance of these issues.
And that I do appreciate George.... thanks for all your hard work [:D]
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George Allakhverdyan said:
I'm doing my best to stress the importance of these issues.
Much appreciated George.
IMHO, this is a necessity and not a feature.
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It really is important to have the updating issue worked out before release.
Several years ago I sent my wife (friend at the time) a copy of the Logos Starter Library. It crashed her system and she had to have someone manually save her files through DOS.
This time it kicked her out of the classroom and there is a nervous feel (for both of us) every time we turn it on.
There needs to be a better way to handle the updates and indexing, that the user can control.
I can say with certainty, that if my wife were to start using L4 as it is now, she would be turned off before she even started the program since it would take so long to start and organize her books. Even if it came preindexed. The first time it needed to update, etc and took her computer away for a day or two she would refuse to use it again.
Additionally, as it is now my additional purchases will GREATLY reduce if I need to go through the reindexing each time and lose my computer for 2 days with each new resource.
I think Bob's plan of having a sub index for new resources until they can be integrated into the library is a great idea. I would put my vote strongly behind a slower integration process if it can run in the background and release all system resources when other programs need them.
I believe a large number of new (and old) customers would be turned off if the indexing is so system intense and takes so long. If it were around 20 minutes it would be acceptable as a new install, but even that is stretching it for every time a new resource is added. (I and other long time users may not mind, but new users would probably be unlikely to recommend it to others.)
Rob
www.3rdcultureliving.com - Simple Abundant Legacy
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Damian McGrath said:George Allakhverdyan said:
I'm doing my best to stress the importance of these issues.
Much appreciated George.
IMHO, this is a necessity and not a feature.
Let's just say that at the rate it's running now this could end up being the Vista of Bible software. I use Vista and think it's great but I never used it before SP1. Do you really want to release Logos4 and have users sitting there for 10 hours wondering why they can't use the new hyped search features. Anyone who complains now that Logos 3 is "too slow" is going to hate indexing. The gain is not worth that pain!!! Added to that many users simply won't have the HD space. My index file alone is almost 5GB so I can't install 4 on my old laptop, my wife's laptop or my church laptop. I think the final 4 files are supposed to be smaller so we can only hope the trade off will reduce the total.
Tom
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Sounds frustrating. Sorry to hear about your troubles. Sympathies aside, if you read the info you got when you agreed to test, there was a warning about running Beta software on your primary machine. This is the risk you accepted when you installed on your laptop.Rob said:This time it kicked her out of the classroom and there is a nervous feel (for both of us) every time we turn it on.
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Joe Miller said:
Sounds frustrating. Sorry to hear about your troubles. Sympathies aside, if you read the info you got when you agreed to test, there was a warning about running Beta software on your primary machine. This is the risk you accepted when you installed on your laptop.
While this is correct, there was nothing in any of the initial information concerning the way in which the program was designed to function with regard to indexing. This is an issue much broader than simply Beta Testing. The problems encountered by Rob are not related to Logos 4 being in Beta but to its fundamental design. Because of the experience of people like Rob, a rethink has occurred on the issue of indexing. For this, we should be grateful.
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Joe Miller said:
Sympathies aside, if you read the info you got
when you agreed to test, there was a warning about running Beta
software on your primary machine. This is the risk you accepted when
you installed on your laptop.Yes, I know that about testing the Beta and I am not frustrated or upset at all (though at the time it was a little frantic trying to fix the problem while students were waiting). I just want to convey what happened and the thoughts it brought towards Libronix. I have been using Libronix for quite a while and know this is just a Beta, so the good comes with the still needing to be refined. However, if it goes public like it is now, I think Logos will have a hard time gaining customers after the initial wave of purchases and may lose some long time customers (except for the fact that they may be well invested and not want to switch). Even if a long time user wanted to push through, complaints from the family who are having computer problems may cause them to stop using Logos as much.
I am excited to be beta testing. I just want to help Libronix do well when it is released and part of that is showing the real world effects of the current indexing method.
Rob
www.3rdcultureliving.com - Simple Abundant Legacy
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George Allakhverdyan said:
the decisions really are not up to me. I'm doing my best to stress the importance of these issues.
I really don't need to say much as the tales of woe throughout this forum speak volumes about the "cloud" resource management philosophy. But the pressure of a release for the Zondervan coup (?) will jeopardise projected maintenance savings and create much ill-will amongst new and cross-over users. They will understand as little as we did and be less forgiving.
Also important is the number of features that are still a work-in-progress (not expected of Beta's):-
- Prioritize
- the Guides and Bible Facts (maybe others)
- Syntax Search, Morph Search
- Bible Search (index issues)
- inline search command/operator prompts
- Help files
I would be concerned for my schedule if these continue to be so in Beta 4/5.
If I were to drop anything for improved resource management it would be:
- Syntax Search (too immature/clumsy & NT resources not sufficiently advanced over L3)
- Word suggestions for Search (slows/hinders input & can suggest an exactness that isn't necessary)
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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