2.04 GB of Downloads: Another call for selective downloads please
Well, this 2 GB is a vary large portion of the download limits for most users in this country!!
Another call for selective download controls please.
One messy and really ugly workaround is:
1) Download and print the Release Notes for the Resource Update
2) Identify and HIDE some of the larger and low-priority resources
3) Restart a few times to make sure they are hidden, then begin the download
4) Allow reindex etc to complete
5) Un-hide the larger resources one or two at a time, over as many days as desired, to manage the download sizes and traffic usage.
YUCK!
Please can we have a better way?
Comments
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Way to think outside of the box Jim!
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I think Bob has posted on here, that Logos managing the different versions of files, and different states of current version that users' systems would be in would be untenable from a support perspective, which has cost and quality considerations. Given how closely the resources and the versions are tied for some functions, when Logos can no longer count on there not being a mismatch, maintaining any kind of consistent quality becomes quite problematic.
Just relaying this on because it has been discussed often - please don't shoot the messenger [A]
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JimT said:
Please can we have a better way?
Jim, I agree that a better way needs to be available for people with download limits. While your solution isn't the ideal, I think you should put it on the wiki as a temporary work-around. At least it gives users their most important resources before they hit their limits. You may even put a Mr. Yuck face on it, if it suits your humor.
Seattle is not only the "birth place" of grunge. It is also the birth place of Mr. Yuck. PS he is not to be abused, he labels things as poison/hazardous for children.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Yes, no shooting.
I've heard this view on why we can't have selective downloads before, but I don't consider that an acceptable "solution", for customers with limited Internet traffic-caps or usage surcharges.
NOT all updates are created equal. It would be an easy matter to put any resource updates into 2 or 3 types:
A) Application updates and critical resource updates to prevent crashes or major fault conditions. If a resource is rebuilt with a critical change to its internal format, and the application would be unstable without this update, its an (A)!
Major update to a resource. If you use this resource, you really "need" this update. Maybe a major re-page, re-index or otherwise a "big deal".C) Minor typos or lesser changes. You may want this, but it many be a low priority for you.
If a user elects to NOT take the (B) or (C) updates, it does NOT create application crashes, support issues or nighmares.
It would be easy for something to be added to the metadata for resources, by build-version, so there was some visual clue somewhere, that a given resource has outstanding (B) or (C) updates that can be downloaded.
I might be happy to have outstanding typos in some resources I hardly or never use, until I'm at a place or time, that the download and reindex is acceptable.
Any time Logos releases an updated resource, they would tag it as (A), (B) or (C) and make a comment in the release notes too.
(After 1.5 hours, I'm at 9% of my 2 GB downloads ... Internet is NOT unlimited size or speed here)
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MJ. Smith said:
Jim, I agree that a better way needs to be available for people with download limits. While your solution isn't the ideal ...
YES - far from ideal. Others can decide if hiding some of their larger but less-important resources has much merit. It would be easier if the release-notes had file sizes too.
Of the 2 GB, it seems 600 MB of this is the two Greek audio resources (Pronunciation), so I can't hide them anyway. Besides, I often use the Erasmian one. Maybe I'd hide the "Modern" one if I could.
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Could we maybe have a "forked" install choice (thinking along the Ubuntu release view: rare hard-core STABLE releases and more frequent "minor" updates).
We already have the Beta and Stable channels. Maybe Logos could add 6 month channel as well, for those who need the underlying stability enhancements to the engine without needing all the "extras" that make updates like this one hard on those with limited connection issues.
Just my 2c.
Lenovo TS130 Xeon E3-1245V2 | 20GB | 256 GB SSD (OS and Logos) | 3TB WD Red | Windows 10 Pro x64
L4 & L5 Platinum, L6 Gold, L5 Reformed Gold, L6 Reformed Bronze, L7 Lutheran Silver, L7 Reformed Starter, L7 Full Feature Set
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Interesting idea ...
Actually, I don't think the problem here is the update to the Logos4 application itself. Its only small.
Given that everyone was going to need a full reindex anyway, maybe Logos decided to release some pending resource updates at the same time.
P.S. Of my 2 GB download, I have an estimated 500 MB still to go, after some 6 hours already spent on the download. Indexing still future. NOT a light impact on resources.
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While I don't have download limits, I feel the same frustration... When I look and see how much of this download was images or image related resources, it is extremely frustrating because I really do not use them enough to update, but use them on occasion, so can't hide them because when you unhide them they will update anyway... Gets back to the refusal to allow user control of what is downloaded unless, you call the all or nothing stance user control, which I do not.... I'm still all for the choice system like V3 had... Simple ability to choose by check box what I want installed or updated on my computer. I know the IMHO poor excuse of saving tech support resources that Logos uses, I offer up the solution to opt out and if you are an opt out customer there is a small per use charge or even subscription tech support plan... I'd jump on it in a second for the ability to control what is downloaded/uploaded/installed... I never bothered with tech support with V3, there was no need to and had full control over what resources got updated....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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I'd support a call for more selectivity, as we had in v3. I've got internet access switched off on my laptop because every time I go to use it it wants to download some update or other. It's even becoming a pain on my desktop - I get around 6MBps download speed and no cap, but the downloading and re-indexing slows everything down.
I'm now using Logos less because of this situation - it's harder to fire it up for a quick look-up.
I tried the iPhone version for use in church (when I'm not preaching) but Laridian's PocketBible beats it on all counts - quicker starting, easier navigation, quicker lookup, note taking... Not the same range of resources available but a few translations, a couple of commentaries and dictionaries are sufficient. Logos seems to be all or nothing (and nothing seems to be the more attractive option).
Logos v4 is certainly more powerful than v3 but I'm not sure I want all that power; sometimes simpler is better. If I didn't already have a bundle of money invested in it (paid out over several years) I'd be tempted to call it a day and even switch my PC over to Laridian's offering. I live in hope that somebody at Logos finds a way to build in better usability.
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I agree there should be more control of downloads but I think it should be related to the size of download permitted ie. a download limit which can be managed within a 20% variation. It would imply Automatically Download Updates = NO and after indexing is complete the next download would be offered, but you would have the ability to refuse it. A possible ramification is that a future Software update would not be offered until the resource download is complete! Classifying resources is too intensive & error prone ie. if you ask someone to classify likely impact it would more likely be put into the Required basket.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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RE: Jim T and his A, B, C updates
You call support - First Question - Did you update all the 'A' updates - if not please call back after updating
You call support on Resource 'XYZ' - first question - Did you update the 'B' update on that resource - if not please call back after updating
They might also inform you of interactions of other 'B' updates on Resource 'XYZ' [Resource 'XYZ' is up to date but it requires 'ABC' to work correctly]
Or LOGOS could just break up the updates into 100 MB chunks - Laptop done and now to do the Desktop
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RE: Jim T and his A, B, C updates
You call support - First Question - Did you update all the 'A' updates - if not please call back after updating
You call support on Resource 'XYZ' - first question - Did you update the 'B' update on that resource - if not please call back after updating
They might also inform you of interactions of other 'B' updates on Resource 'XYZ' [Resource 'XYZ' is up to date but it requires 'ABC' to work correctly]
Or LOGOS could just break up the updates into 100 MB chunks - Laptop done and now to do the Desktop
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A more likely scenario:
You call support - First Question - Did you update all the 'A' updates - if not please call back after updating
LIkely reply -> Yes I did (but I did not, I thought I did) - so after 20 minutes of investigation the tech support person asks the person to just do it again anyway and call back, and the whole sequence starts over.
You call support on Resource 'XYZ' - first question - Did you update the 'B' update on that resource - if not please call back after updating
Likely reply -> I don't know how to - my son does the updates and manages the configuration, and he is away. All I know is my system is crashing because something is wrong.
IMHO I think some hard-truth realities are these: (1) the program and data are connected. There are times when it matters what version of resource match with the version of software. So many of the comments here seem to just imply this is an arbitrary decision, but it's not - it's like saying give me half the release Logos, and you worry about supporting me that way. To compare to LInux is problematic, because Linux is used by people fully capable of maintaining it, they know how to build their own version of the distribution in most cases. We have Logos users that are really much less experienced in their desktop software. To give users the ability to uncouple software and required resources, well that is just asking for trouble, and no software developer would willingly do that. Is there a way to uncouple resources and software? Maybe, but that leads to truth #2: (2) The ideas being proposed here will take a lot of software development time and money to implement. Are we willing to forego many important functional updates for this kind of investigation, implementation, design of software to manage the revisions so Logos knows what is going on, etc.? If, just for example, sentence diagramming, printing, and PBB support were pushed out another 6 months from wherever they will end up without this work, would that be worth it? I am willing to bet most customers would say no.
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Dominick Sela said:
IMHO I think some hard-truth realities are these: (1) the program and data are connected. There are times when it matters what version of resource match with the version of software.
Undoubtedly true. For me the big pain is the initial download after buying a package, where I don't have the option to say "No. I don't want this resource...". Being in about the same position is JimT, I had to go through a huge amount of pain to download a load of resources and then hide the ones I did not want or need. I chose to hide the Image resources because they represented a large proportion of update downloads - I would use some of them if I had them but the 'cost' in time and excess bandwidth charges is too great.
Having gone through this initial download and hiding of unwanted resources, today's update was, for me, just 350 megs. I have already suggested that we be given the ability to 'pre-hide' a resource - which means it's never available and would have to be fully downloaded if I decided that I wanted it after all. This would avoid the scenario where the application and data were out of sync and cut down on bandwidth. I appreciate that it would not work for everyone - it all depends on how many of the resources you own that you actually want/need/use.
That being said, it strikes me as unfortunate that so much data needs to be regularly downloaded. For 'simple' updates such as correcting typos, surely a way can be thought of to 'patch' the existing data? Yes, it's more complex and error prone that totally replacing the data but the downloader could, at the very least, determine if the update was from V1.0c to 1.0d (i.e. just one 'step') and try to patch the data in that instance.
I suspect, however, that the underlying data structures are still changing. If that is so, then Logos needs to work on stabilizing the product. But I've said that before and won't harp on it again...
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If it must be an all or nothing update then at least can we download it externally to L4 (e.g. as a zip). Then apply the downloaded file to L4 (using scan or similar).
Down loading 2Gb x3 (Mac, Desktop, Laptop) is a bit much.
I also have access to better download limits, but not in a place where L4 is installed. Much better to download once, at a place of my choosing, and then use a pen drive to distribute it.
2017 15" MBP, iPad Pro
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The Logos4 application already, and always, knows if there is an update to itself, and if there is an update to a resource its been asked to open.
It could offer a warning before opening a resource, if its known there is a newer one. Whats so hard about that?
It could write to the log, before opening any "outdated" resource. Whats the problem?
This one really is easy!
No, not 30 lines of code. But not a support nightmare. The application already knows all about what resources have updates, and if it crashes, what ones were active. No human need get involved to automate upgrade or resource-lockout warnings, if a resource is the problem.
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I would be happy with:
Important Notice!
This Logos Bible Software update can not proceed until the follow matter is addressed:
The pending Application update no longer supports resource file formats prior to F#2.36, which impacts 17 of your resources, as listed below.
Please select one of the following choices:
- Take no action for now
- Download all 17 resources, then update the Application
- Download selected titles from the list (and block the others), then update the Application
- Block the listed resources, then update the Application
(NOTE: Blocked resources will be added to your "Hide" list, and can be updated at any later time. See xxx in Help)
List of Resources needing updates
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++XYZ Bible
John's Commentary on Luke 9
Dictionary of Bible Themes
Names and Their Meanings
Hebrew Audio Bible
NIV (2011 Update)
etc
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Jim,
Bob has answered this several times, the data IS connected to the program. Logos is not going to create a customer service nightmare to do what you are asking. Yikes! your suggestions of a half updated program or worse, without your knowing the inner workings of the program, you want to choose some updates and reject others. Most customers don't know how to even begin to do what you are asking, let alone remember what they did or did not do several months ago.
I suggest we all wait until Logos 4 is finished, and then see where we stand at that time. I wonder how many users Logos has outside the US that this is a problem for? Logos has over a half a million users and 27,000 forum members and only a dozen or so people complain about this issue.
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That's your all's opinion because you have unlimited downloads and a fast connection and don't factor in the number of people who have a major issue with this around the globe and have been saying so since November.
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I live outside the US and it is not a problem. However in a strange twist of fate, I in visiting in the US, and the internet at my hotel is slowing than snail. Started downloading last night at 10:30 and still only at 65% of the 2.0 GB.BobbyTerhune said:I wonder how many users Logos has outside the US that this is a problem for?
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Your right, it is my opinion, but just how many people are we talking about here? I'm not trying to be unsympathetic here but Logos has developed this product based on the majority of their user base and market. They have been forthright in letting us know that if you buy this product you will need a computer that has been made in the last two years to run it properly. Yet people complain that it runs slow on their older system. Indexing and re-indexing is a pain, but I believe worth it for the benefits I receive. Yet indexing has received way more complaints than the problem with the size of downloads.
Thankfully Logos has kept Libronix 3 for folks with older computers and limited internet service. Logos has always built for the future, and I'm glad Logos pushed the envelope to bring us more power to harness our library's information. I would hope that in a few years this issue of bandwidth will not be as important as it is today. It seems as if all countries are trying to improve their infrastructure including the US.
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BobbyTerhune said:
Jim, ... Most customers don't know how to even begin to do what you are asking, let alone remember what they did or did not do several months ago.
I agree that they are unrealistic scenarios from both Logos' and user's perspectives.
I note that the 2435 MB download notice from Melissa stated "The following updated resources may be downloaded to your computers
if version 4.0d is installed (and if Automatically Download Updates is
enabled)." - emphasis is mine. So, did users of 4.0c not get a download? Will they only get the resources after choosing to update to 4.0d and how do they do that? However, I don't think there is a choice because 4.0d is required for the resources, so the software will be downloaded & updated and then the resources will be downloaded, followed by a full re-index.An option to limit downloads as I mentioned in my previous post seems to be the most feasible way to achieve the goals that Logos has set. But a minimum download of about 512 MB would have to be accepted because of the size of the largest "resource" that Logos will require ie. the Biblical People, Places, Maps and Things files used in the Guides. Also, indexing will occur after each "package" has been downloaded unless Logos offer to index only after all packages have been downloaded (which requires much more management).
BobbyTerhune said:I wonder how many users Logos has outside the US that this is a problem for? Logos has over a half a million users and 27,000 forum members and only a dozen or so people complain about this issue.
You've heard of the silent majority of course[:)]
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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BobbyTerhune said:
Logos has over a half a million users and 27,000 forum members and only a dozen or so people complain about this issue.
I live outside the US, and I have cheap, unmetered Internet access from a local service provider. I hardly notice these updates. I do feel for those who are less fortunate.
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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I run Logos4 on my desktop and a laptop. Internet connection is turned off on the laptop to avoid this hassle (and totally unrealistic considering it's normal internet access is over metered 3G). I only download to my desktop (still a pain) but, once all the indexing is finished, I back up the whole Logos folder to a backup drive (FYI I use Microsoft's SyncToy to send it to a 4TB NAS on my 1GB home network). I then use SyncToy on the laptop to update the laptop copy (and then turn off the internet options).
Unfortunately, my wife has to run the updates separately for her PC as she has to have a separate license.
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BobbyTerhune said:
b has answered this several times, the data IS connected to the program. Logos is not going to create a customer service nightmare to do what you are asking. Yikes! your suggestions of a half updated program or worse, without your knowing the inner workings of the program, you want to choose some updates and reject others. Most customers don't know how to even begin to do what you are asking, let alone remember what they did or did not do several months ago.
I suggest we all wait until Logos 4 is finished, and then see where we stand at that time. I wonder how many users Logos has outside the US that this is a problem for? Logos has over a half a million users and 27,000 forum members and only a dozen or so people complain about this issue.
Why don't you volunteer to pay for the extra expense incurred by Jim and others who have download caps. I did read somewhere that ISPs in the US are also considering download caps. It is an issue that may concern all of us in the near future.
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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BobbyTerhune said:
I suggest we all wait until Logos 4 is finished, and then see where we stand at that time. I wonder how many users Logos has outside the US that this is a problem for? Logos has over a half a million users and 27,000 forum members and only a dozen or so people complain about this issue.
Jim,
This is my first post, but I have been a long-time Logos user. Having spent 16 years in the graphic design business before entering ministry, I am accustomed to paying top dollar for professional tools. Logos is no different than the Adobe Creative Suite (and is similarly prices) in that sense. These price points carry with it expectations of a certain level of refinement with regards to the end product AS MARKETED AND SOLD. I am growing weary of the repeated "wait until Logos 4 is finished" or the "be patient its scheduled for a future update in the 2nd or 3rd quarter of 2010" advice offered by many (though well-intentioned no doubt).
No offense intended to you as an individual. I simply mean to state that Adobe would never have had the gall to sell a BETA version BECAUSE they would face the justified wrath of their own user base. When I upgraded to Logos 4 I thought I was buying a mature program... not a beta. But without a "print" function (that even the free E-Sword has), and several other incomplete or promised but missing features, Logos 4 is anything but ready for prime time. Additionally, I find their marketing approach to be mere redirection from the reality that you are paying top dollar for a BETA. While this may have been clearly stated in the user boards, a user
board is not the decision point for a purchase or an upgrade, the
primary site is that point. That is partly my fault for not checking the product more closely before purchasing and I accept my role in it. Logos has blame to share for putting an incomplete product out for sale rather than mere beta testing. I am not trying to accuse them of being deceitful, only that this is a beta development version should be more prominently stated in their promotional material. I love the new look of the program and the increased functionality as a whole, but we must look past the "thin candy shell" to see the reality.BTW... I can tell you, living in a rural area, that bandwidth is an issue... and the user should not have to download ANYTHING that is 2gb as repeatedly as we have been forced to as Logos users. Then its "lather rinse and repeat" for my netbook installation after I finish with the desktop. It is a mistake on your part to presume that just because a dozen or so people complain on the forum that they do not represent a much larger number of people not motivated to write. Painting with such a large brush is quite dangerous.
Ken
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Apologies. I drifted off topic and into rant mode, even addressed it to the wrong person (that pesky phone is a distraction sometimes)! [:D]
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Ken Hicks said:
Jim,
This is my first post
Hi Ken.
Huh? You seem to be putting words or ideas into my mouth that others have spoken, rather than me.
I live in New Zealand, and have a speed-capped dataplan, but currently unlimited traffic volume. However, my ISP discounted this plan on 20th May, and will soon force me onto a lesser one. Based on my traffic usage for the last month, on the best new plan currently listed, my traffic will cost US$300-400 for a month. So you see, traffic volumes and speeds are something I care about a lot!!!
The Logos resource downloads yesterday (which took abut 10-12 hours) will be 10% or more of my monthly limit, before the ISP forces me to either (A) dialup speeds, or (B) Pay a surcharge for traffic, which was $20/GB last time I looked.
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Ken, I take your point about Logos 4 being a beta version. However, for me the fact is that Logos 4 does everything it says on the tin, and does it faster and far more efficiently than absolutely anything else on the market. For all it's still in beta, it does everything I need it to do and more. Without this tool I wouldn't have been able to complete a 580 A4 page book on a theological topic, in a mere year and a half, on top of a full time job, a job, and a Masters degree.
I expect Logos 4 to do what the marketing says it does. And it does. There are a dozen or more refinements I wish it had, but they don't affect my use of the tool to do exactly what I want and exactly what it promises.
Different companies have different approaches. Microsoft and Adobe make us wait for a year or so between builds, so we were all stuck with Windows XP for years, and too long with Vista. Some of us would have preferred a 'Vista lite' somewhere in between Vista and Win7, bugs or not (it's not like XP and Vista were bug free, after all). As for updates, Windows is the king of updates. I don't know another program which updates more frequently than Windows.
Adobe releases extremely well developed and polished products, certainly. They are then patched over and over and over again through multiple updates between builds, in a manner not very distinguishable from Logos. How's that for polish? I currently have 1.1 GB of Adobe updates queued for CS4, that wonderfully expensive product with expectations of a certain level of refinement with regards to the end product as marketed and sold.
More than that, just about every Adobe product has a forum dedicated to it, full of irate users who still can't get a particular bug or incompatibility solved after a year or more. The problems my wife had with an earlier build of Premiere Pro were just horrendous, to the point that we uninstalled it and just waited for Adobe to release another build which worked consistently (forums were stuffed with users having the same problems we did, but repeated patches did nothing to solve the issues), which took almost a year. Almost a year!
I appreciate this doesn't mitigate your frustrations with Logos 4 and your issue with its downloads. But it's worth noting that the most polished products at this end of the market are neither bug free nor update free. In fact it's fair to say that products at this end of the market are more vulnerable to errors however polished they are as final releases, and more likely to require regular patching.
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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Jonathan Burke said:
Ken, I take your point about Logos 4 being a beta version. However, for me the fact is that Logos 4 does everything it says on the tin, and does it faster and far more efficiently than absolutely anything else on the market. For all it's still in beta, it does everything I need it to do and more. Without this tool I wouldn't have been able to complete a 580 A4 page book on a theological topic, in a mere year and a half, on top of a full time job, a job, and a Masters degree.
I did not mean to imply that it was not a competent tool... merely an incomplete tool.
Jonathan Burke said:I expect Logos 4 to do what the marketing says it does. And it does.
There are a dozen or more refinements I wish it had, but they don't
affect my use of the tool to do exactly what I want and exactly what it
promises.I don't believe the ability to print or adequately implement handouts could be qualified as a mere "refinement." it would be like Adobe Photoshop being shipped without the ability to crop the image or export it for printing at the press.
Jonathan Burke said:Adobe releases extremely well developed and polished products,
certainly. They are then patched over and over and over again through
multiple updates between builds, in a manner not very distinguishable
from Logos. How's that for polish? I currently have 1.1 GB of Adobe
updates queued for CS4, that wonderfully expensive product with
expectations of a certain level of refinement with regards to the end
product as marketed and sold.I would love if Logos would only need 1.1 GB of refinements every so often... but point taken. Still, logic suggests that a refined product would require less updates (but I guess that argument is self-defeating when you mention the word "Microsoft.") [:D]
Jonathan Burke said:I appreciate this doesn't mitigate your frustrations with Logos 4
and your issue with its downloads. But it's worth noting that the most
polished products at this end of the market are neither bug free nor
update free. In fact it's fair to say that products at this end of the
market are more vulnerable to errors however polished they are as final
releases, and more likely to require regular patching.Agreed.
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Ken, your description of Logos 4 as competent but incomplete is an excellent one. I do agree. So the issue perhaps is to what extent Logos actually identifies clearly in its marketing, what the product can and cannot do. Personally I have zero need of printing, I live almost entirely in a paperless world. For me Logos 4 is a research tool not a word processor, though the ability export to .pdf or .docx would be nice.
Bob Pritchett has commented previously on the dilemma of releasing an 'incomplete' Logos 4 and a 'complete' product. One of my first posts on this forum was in fact to complain about missing features which I had used in L3. However, the list of missing features is large, and the list of customer wants is even larger. If we were to wait for a complete product, we would not see a line of code before next year. Instead, I've been using this excellent resource for six months.
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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My world is largely paperless, but there are times when a good printed copy of an article is needed. This argument between paperless and paper-based workflow reminds me somewhat of when PC's began to dump the diskette drives and serial ports in favor of USB ports. Still, many people utilize a hybrid workflow, stuck somewhere in the middle (either for practical or preferential reasons). Sometimes I just want to get away from the LCD screen for the sake of my eyes... cant do that in a paperless environment.
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Ken,
You're right it is dangerous to try and paint with a large brush, and I need to be careful. And I agree Logos did not explain well what to expect in the early days of release. My first experience with indexing in the beta program was terrible, I think it took around 30 hours to complete! But I still think it's worth waiting for with a good measure of patience. Logos has proved it does listen, and I think if it's possible they will try and help with the bandwidth problem.
Concerning your point about downloads, if memory serves me correctly, I thought we have only had three large downloads, two drops of 2 gigs and one drop of 1 gig, that is over 8 months time.
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Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
Ken Hicks said:
I don't believe the ability to print or adequately implement handouts could be qualified as a mere "refinement." it would be like Adobe Photoshop being shipped without the ability to crop the image or export it for printing at the press.
I think that this is the crux of many people's irritation. Logos, and a large chunk of users as per Logos statistics, never saw Logos as a layout and print program. It's core function is research not presentation. Logos did have a deprecated product Lesson Builder that was a limited layout and print program but it was not widely used. As long as the user and developer have different views of what the product's primary goal is there will be disappointments and frustrations.
Rather than thinking of Logos 4 as a beta version, I think it is more accurately described as a product for which the "professional" and "enterprise" versions were not initially available. I do think Logos misjudged the importance of some statically small usage features that were critical to those who used them. Addressing this has slid the timeline on intended features. The features I used most in Logos 3 are still not available in Logos 4 but I recognize that building one's own timelines, diagrams and PBB's probably weren't the most used features. So I wait - not patiently but with understanding.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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BobbyTerhune said:
Your right, it is my opinion, but just how many people are we talking about here?
More than are complaining because Bob has made it quite clear that this will not change and so many people have stopped complaining. This download is inconvenient for me because it coincided with me making a purchase which I now assume is part of the update that is currently at 19% on my system. Right now this negates the benefits of online purchasing for me and I would like to see the download system modified to prioritise resources that are not currently installed over updates.
I used to recommend Logos 3 and still buy copies of eBible for other to encourage Bible study much as I like Logos 4 it is still not a product I would recommend to someone else. This issue along with others like the ability to spell check notes needs to be taken seriously. Personally I'm beginning to worry that the need for cross platform compatibility is hindering the development of the Windows platform.
Unfortunately changing to an alternative product is not a serious option but I'm slowly beginning to wish that it was.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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Not to diminish the problems of those who have bandwidth limitations, but I just wanted to weigh in that I personally do not mind the large downloads. In fact I really appreciate that Logos would be willing to shell out the cost for the bandwidth on pushing such large downloads all so that we could have upgraded software (and not have to wait months and months or longer for them to have enough upgrades to justify burning new discs and shipping them out).
I understand its a problem for some, but I suspect that it is a blessing for the majority.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
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I'm going to agree with Dom S here...that sounds like a very likely scenario.
I've been on too many of these:
Ring...Hello tech support:
Them: "my monitors dead!"
Me: "did you check to see that your monitor has power?"
Them "of course you idiot!"
Me: "Ok, I'll be there as soon as I can"
(After traveling 1.5 hours to get there....and find that the monitor is not plugged in, so I plug it in.)
Them: "hey you fixed it...thanks!"
Less user serviceable parts = less headaches. In this case....multiple download tiers....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
I've been on too many of these
I have to agree Robert, what you've described there is a classic case of PEBKAC = Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair.
[;)]
Having once tried to start a business repairing computers and doing tech support for free for many many people I can confirm the reality.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Robert Pavich said:
Less user serviceable parts = less headaches. In this case....multiple download tiers....
Actually, its more like an adjustment another a line; with "Winner A at one end, and "Winner B" at the other.
In the case of "Downloads are All or Nothing", the setting is too far towards Logos winning, and some impacted customers losing.
Just scan the forums for the numbers of customers that are leaving the L4 product for L3, or for products by other companies.
Maybe the point is, Logos has decided its fine to have some customers walk, to make support for the rest cheap! I guess thats what companies do.
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Jim, I think you need a lot more information than you have in order to make statements like that credibly. Logos has been struggling to address the massive increase to their userbase, which has placed a huge load on their resources, and they have spared no expense to improve customer support in the process.
I can well understand why they would prefer not to make even more work for themselves when they are barely able to cope with the current workload. The more people calling customer support, the less support for all of us. It isn't just about the company's money, it's about the quality of service you and I receive. I don't want thousands of customers calling customer support every week, because it reduces significantly the amount of time available to each of us.
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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Jonathan,
It may not seem so, but I want the exact same thing. A high-quality application that does the things we need. And for Logos to be able to support it with the standards and quality we require. And for them to make an acceptable profit, and continue in busness, and continue to improve and release additional resources.
I don't want them to get thousands of calls that could be avoided.
I just see it done a different way. Rather than remove "complex" features, I'm saying to have them work in "solid" ways. They don't need to increase support costs once built. In fact, they will reduce them.
So very far off topic now, but the first major application I wrote in C , was designed to firstly do the two things that were the biggest support nightmare with all the other existing applications doing the same basic task. I designed and wrote it to recover frome "issue" under all common failure modes that plaged the others. Once that worked, I built the rest on top. Its only my view, and many seem to not agree, but I don't think the plumbing for downloads is right in Logos4.
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JimT said:
It may not seem so, but I want the exact same thing. A high-quality application that does the things we need. And for Logos to be able to support it with the standards and quality we require. And for them to make an acceptable profit, and continue in busness, and continue to improve and release additional resources.
I don't want them to get thousands of calls that could be avoided.
Jim, you can say all that without accusing Logos of being prepared to have customers walk just so they can make more money for themselves.
JimT said:I just see it done a different way. Rather than remove "complex" features, I'm saying to have them work in "solid" ways. They don't need to increase support costs once built. In fact, they will reduce them.
I am sure Logos has exactly the same aim. If you know what they're doing wrong and exactly how to fix it, I suggest you contact them and explain where their programming is going wrong.
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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Jonathan,
I think you have misunderstood at least some of what I'm saying. Its OK we have different views on some or many matters.
This whole thread is really trying to remind Logos that for some of their customers around the world, a 2 GB download from time-to-time is not a small or unimportant matter.
If you read my posting history, you will see I often make positive comments about the company and the products. It really is my single most important position. I am a customer of this company, and a user of their products. I like the product and the company. Really!
I also ask for a number of things that I believe are important to me, and maybe useful to someone else. I don't expect to get them all, but if I think they are important, I'm going to ask. Thats what customers do.
I've also often suggested possible ways or methods that something might be able to be done different, better or new. Logos has done some of them, put some on a list for review, and said "no", or "no for now" on others. Thats how it works.
Sometimes I get frustrated if other users bag a good idea because its not something thats important to them. I'l learning to try and not react to everyone that disagrees with me. So, for now, I'm going to see if I can resist not saying too much more in this thread. No, its not about me having the last word. I'm sure others with add something here yet. I'm just see if I can not over-react and go try and get some code working, that I should be doing rather than writing here.
Really, I think we are looking for the same kinds of things in the big picture.
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Jim, I understand you're a fan of the company and the product. It's just that occasionally you make statements which are way over the top, and constitute unsubstantiated, unnecessary, and unwarranted slights on the company's motives.
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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BobbyTerhune said:
I wonder how many users Logos has outside the US that this is a problem for? Logos has over a half a million users and 27,000 forum members and only a dozen or so people complain about this issue.
I came trawling the forums this morning because I have had a number of downloads every time I restart logos and very little indexing. I seems strange.
But the time spent downloading has affected my work flow and interfered with access to other parts of the web.
But if a dozen people take the time to complain then you can be sure that there are a hoard behind them fuming and a cohort who just don't bother with the program again.
Smart companies listen to the complaints of the few because in reality they are likely to be the complaints of many.
Anyway - Where to I find details of all these downloads today?
tootle pop
Mike
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mike Binks said:
Anyway - Where to I find details of all these downloads today?
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Sorry I'm so late to this. :-)
Fortunately, several people have already stepped in to make my point: it's logistically impossible for us to "hold some of your calls." We are, in fact, trying to hold "typo" updates, and almost everything we are pushing out is in the A) or
categories -- things that need to be kept in sync with the app.The biggest things are generally the media resources (some of which have been updated since we shipped in order to correct important metadata errors -- this format was new to Logos 4 and we learned some things along the way) and reverse interlinears, which touch everything. It would be difficult to code the app to not crash if everyone ran different versions of the very-integral reverse interlinears.
We've been updating the rev int's because you asked for it: full-screen reverse interlinear display (which we never planned, but did in response to user requests), and then revising the database with extra fields/info to implement requested features and enhancements.
Now it's true you could argue we should have held the product, tested all of this thoroughly, gotten more user feedback before shipping, etc. That would just have taken, um, about as long as it's taken... because we've just kept working hard on it. This gets back to the many-times-argued discussion we've had in the forums: should we have held Logos 4 or shipped it? And, as I've pointed out (with no malice intended) you can choose that "hold it till it's perfect!" scenario right now by simply continuing to use Logos 3 for another six months or so. (Yes, I understand that might make you upset -- that we dared to ship short of perfection -- but I've got as many or more users on the other side who wanted it out there, and are happy with it now.)
I imagine that soon after the next major release (which should have almost all the "missing features" of Logos 3) you'll find that resource updates slow down dramatically. I find them annoying, too, but hope you realize they just mean you're getting a constantly improved product!
As for solutions: we aren't going to let you pick and choose, for all the reasons exhaustively given. It really is logistically impossible. There is hope: patching. Google Chrome and other "updated all the time" apps send down patch files that represent just the differences between version 34 and version 35 of a file. Then code runs on your machine to turn your copy of v34 into v35.
The problem is, somebody out there had the Internet turned off since v23. So they need the v23 -> v35 patch. Or the v1 -> v35 patch, which could be bigger than v35.
And while Chrome has "one app" to update, we've got 10,000+ individual resources.
I think there are solutions, and there are "off-the-shelf" solutions, extensively tested over many years, that can help with this scary-complex process. But it's still a lot more complicated than delivering the latest file, and introduces many more potential failure/corruption points.
There's also the question of the best use of our coding resources: do you want printing first, or patching? Especially since it's like that this year we'll grow out of the frequent updates phase, and things should stabilize.
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