Please Help me with Inductive Bible study

Sorry about not being clear, Tes [:)]

In the picture, the book on the left is "The Lexham Clausal Outlines of the Greek New Testament." The book on the right is the ESV. I have the inline interlinear display selected:

It looks like you're using the NASB, which can also be set an interlinear mode:

 

If that's too much information at one time, you can also use the new Logos 4 Interlinear feature, which just provides information for the word you've clicked on:

David B Phillips said:

There is a resource that gives this type of information and labels it clearly. It is "The Lexham Clausal Outlines of the Greek New Testament." Information can be found here: http://www.logos.com/logos3/new/clausaloutlines. However, I can't find it for sale and don't know when I acquired it. Perhaps someone else can help answer that question.

It comes with all of the base packages from Original Languages on up. See http://www.logos.com/comparison. It cannot be bought as a stand-alone product.

Tes said:

Is it different from what I have in logos 4?

I don't know, Tes. I cannot remember what base package you have. Lexham Clausal Outlines is included in Original Languages, Scholar's, Silver, Gold, Platinum, and Portfolio. But it is not in the others (Home, Bible Study, Leader's).

Tes said:

Rosie Perera said:

Tes said:

Is it different from what I have in logos 4?

I don't know, Tes. I cannot remember what base package you have. Lexham Clausal Outlines is included in Original Languages, Scholar's, Silver, Gold, Platinum, and Portfolio. But it is not in the others (Home, Bible Study, Leader's).

I have platinum

Yes, then you have this resource. I do not know if it has changed in L4 from when it was first released in L3, but if there have been any changes, it has been improved. I am not familiar with this resource or inductive bible study so I cannot help with your other questions.

　

Peace and Joy and Every Blessing, Tes! *smile*

         Perhaps it might be helpful to you if you "googled" or investigated in any other way just what "Inductive Bible Study" is. That is, perhaps you should investigate what it is and make that clear in your own mind so that you can procede with some "powerful" and "life-changing" studies! *smile*

         It's not really about "tools," although the truly beautiful and fantastic Logos L-3 and L4 assist us more that we could have ever hoped for!    *smile*

          For Example: At THIS website: http://www.intervarsity.org/bible-studies/inductive-bible-study-hints

　

We find: "

 

Inductive Bible Study Hints

Tes, for some reason I'm having difficulty pasting the actual website...

You might just want to go directly there to get it straight.

Yours in Christ,

Mel

Hi Tes, I too am not sure what problem you're actually encountering, but I'll tell you something that I do to keep the highlighting focused on different parts of the observation process:

1. I have a palette specific to key words or terms (mostly what we have in the base package with a few personal changes)

2. I have a visual filter that specifically calls out structure can be identified by looking at the underlying greek or hebrew (e.g. imperative verbs, verbs, conjunctions, vocatives, devine nouns, etc.)

3. I have a separate inductive palette that I use to identify my findings regarding structure, sequence, relationship, comparisons, contrasts, if-then constructions, and to identify the who/what/where/when/why & how of the passage

I first use ONLY the palette described in #3 to identify what I can on my own... I do this using at least two different translations, if the passage is difficult, as many as 7 or 8... I typically only mark up my primary study translation in this process, not the other translations... along the way I'll take notes in my "Inductive bible study" notes based on the verse or chapter (not the words typically). 

Then I add in my original language visual filters with #3 to further do my own markup and try to understand the structure, flow, etc. . . 

Then I add in the palette in #1 to find key words (by now I'm pretty good at identifying them as I've typically read the text at least 3 times in at least 2 different translations)... very quickly, the inductive structure palette gets in the way and I turn it and the original language filters off to focus on the key words, terms, ideas and thoughts. I use some of the highlights from the emphasis palette to highlight ideas and theological concepts that may not be captured by the normal palette I use. 

The key thing I do is to refrain from jumping into the "easy" part of observation of words like God, Jesus, etc. until after I really understand the structure, flow, 5 Ws and H. 

I also make sure to turn off and on visual filters to help me see things in a different light (amazing feature of Logos). I can look at structure separately from key terms, separately from underlying morphology, or combine them when it makes sense (almost never in the NT!)

I hope this is helpful. 

Blessings in Christ

One Final Word from me, Tes!  Peace to you!

          Inductive Bible Study is so that we can understand God's Word and His speaking to us better.

The Holy Spirit works indeed through this Means of Grace!  Praise Him!  The Holy Spirit is the One who gives Enlightenment.

          Anyway, I was just thinking.  You are Ethiopian first language.  You live in Germany, so German is likely your second language.  Possibily English is your third language.

           If German is your second language, Luther's Die Bibel (1912 and 1545 versions both in Logos) might be very helpful to you also to understand God's speaking to you.

            I have in Logos 3 a PBB Version that reads your same text as follows:

Logos 3 - L3 - PBB - Luther's Bible - Die Bibel - Romans Chapter 6

1 Was wollen wir hierzu sagen? Sollen wir denn in der Sünde beharren, auf daß die Gnade desto mächtiger werde? 2 Das sei ferne! Wie sollten wir in der Sünde wollen leben, der wir abgestorben sind? 3 Wisset ihr nicht, daß alle, die wir in Jesus Christus getauft sind, die sind in seinen Tod getauft? 4 So sind wir ja mit ihm begraben durch die Taufe in den Tod, auf daß, gleichwie Christus ist auferweckt von den Toten durch die Herrlichkeit des Vaters, also sollen auch wir in einem neuen Leben wandeln. 5 So wir aber samt ihm gepflanzt werden zu gleichem Tode, so werden wir auch seiner Auferstehung gleich sein, 6 dieweil wir wissen, daß unser alter Mensch samt ihm gekreuzigt ist, auf daß der sündliche Leib aufhöre, daß wir hinfort der Sünde nicht mehr dienen. 7 Denn wer gestorben ist, der ist gerechtfertigt von der Sünde. 8 Sind wir aber mit Christo gestorben, so glauben wir, daß wir auch mit ihm leben werden, 9 und wissen, daß Christus, von den Toten auferweckt, hinfort nicht stirbt; der Tod wird hinfort nicht mehr über ihn herrschen. 10 Denn was er gestorben ist, das ist er der Sünde gestorben zu einem Mal; was er aber lebt, das lebt er Gott. 11 Also auch ihr, haltet euch dafür, daß ihr der Sünde gestorben seid und lebt Gott in Christo Jesus, unserm HERRN. 12 So lasset nun die Sünde nicht herrschen in eurem sterblichen Leibe, ihr Gehorsam zu leisten in seinen Lüsten. 13 Auch begebet nicht der Sünde eure Glieder zu Waffen der Ungerechtigkeit, sondern begebet euch selbst Gott, als die da aus den Toten lebendig sind, und eure Glieder Gott zu Waffen der Gerechtigkeit. 13 Auch begebet nicht der Sünde eure Glieder zu Waffen der Ungerechtigkeit, sondern begebet euch selbst Gott, als die da aus den Toten lebendig sind, und eure Glieder Gott zu Waffen der Gerechtigkeit. 14 Denn die Sünde wird nicht herrschen können über euch, sintemal ihr nicht unter dem Gesetz seid, sondern unter der Gnade.

Holy Bible. German Luther Translation (1165). Joseph Kreifels.

Tes, I have found Morris Proctor's Inductive Bible Study helps to be a terrific advantage on sequences and structure set-ups. He gives you passage guide ideas etc. I have only recently acquired it and am still playing around with it, but it has been very helpful in setting up L4 in a useable inductive format. DAB

Bohuslav Wojnar said:

EDIT:  I just copied your explanation to my One Note, just not to lose it in the sea of the forum...

Copy it again. I just made some changes to fix typos and clarify a couple of places with boldface text or quotation marks.

Bohuslav Wojnar said:

Thanks

Copy again one last time. I made one more edit: fixed misspelling of Reed-Kellogg (in two places). It has two g's. In case you ever want to Google it to find out more, it better be spelled correctly. [;)]

Rosie Perera said:

Bohuslav Wojnar said:

Thanks

Copy again one last time. I made one more edit: fixed misspelling of Reed-Kellogg (in two places). It has two g's. In case you ever want to Google it to find out more, it better be spelled correctly.

It's done. Thank you again for your excellent work. [Y]

Ted Hans said:

Has Rosie written any published work?

Nothing on biblical studies (yet). But I have published a few articles in magazines and journals, and I have a regular column in Comment Magazine on faith and technology. And I wrote the entry on Walter Wangerin in The Encyclopedia of Christian Literature which was just published. (I'm hoping Logos will get it in their format before too long.)

Bravo Rosie, really well done!  You have quite a gift to be able to communicate this so well.  Thank you for this wonderful work.

I did have two thoughts to humbly submit:

(a) Since we know sentence diagramming is coming, have you considered putting this on the wiki so it's not lost?  It could be an excellent intro to sentence diagramming, or just in an area of general bible study tips. 

(b) in 3(c) you say:

Rosie Perera said:So this clause "all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death" is the A in the causal relationship which "therefore" sets up, and B is "We were buried with him by baptism into death." In this case, the causal relationship seems to be that B is merely a further elaboration of what A means. Again, it's not that A caused B to happen, but because we know A is true, then we understand that B is true too.

Re: the bolded text, I might humbly add to this explanation that there is a little more than just a further elaboration, as it basically says, with the qualifiers removed,  "We were baptized in his death" therefore  "we were buried into death".  It seems that is a useful thought to contemplate, how baptism implies (therefore) death. The verse in 6.4 really builds on the prior verse, it's not just an elaboration IMHO which may just be my own view on the topic (and I have NOTHING else to add to the exhaustive job you did!).

But again, such an excellent, excellent job!

Rosie Perera said:

4) The next important connecting phrase is "in order that." This one also sets up a relationship between two clauses. A in order that B means that A needed to happen for B to be able to happen. Some examples: "I brought my umbrella in order that I wouldn't get rained on." Or "I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments." (Col 2:4) Paul needed to say this or his readers might have been vulnerable to being deluded. I will explain later why in Rom 6:4, clause A is "We were buried with him by baptism into death" and clause B is the last of the highlighted clauses: "We might walk in newness of life" not the second one. (Basically, it's because the second clause is subordinate to the last one.)

Rosie, let me first complement you for the excellent work you put forth to help Tes.

You are very correct that "in order that" subordinates its clause to another one. However, I have a revision to suggest for how to understand "in order that." It is a translation of ἵνα most commonly used to denote purpose. To use your examples you could write "I brought my umbrella for the purpose of not getting rained on" or "I say this for the purpose that no one may delude you with plausible arguments." The point is not that A must happen for B to come to pass (although that may be true) but that the author/God is being intentional with his actions. There are other ways to avoid getting wet besides using an umbrella, staying inside or using a poncho could work as well [:)]. In Paul's letter to the Colossians he wrote with the purpose of preventing them from being duped; it was not A) a guaranteed of success or   a preclusion of another agent prevent the deluding.

See Wallace pp 678-9 and 749 for some more examples and other examples of how ἵνα is used.

Kevin Becker said:

Rosie Perera said:

4) The next important connecting phrase is "in order that." This one also sets up a relationship between two clauses. A in order that B means that A needed to happen for B to be able to happen. Some examples: "I brought my umbrella in order that I wouldn't get rained on." Or "I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments." (Col 2:4) Paul needed to say this or his readers might have been vulnerable to being deluded. I will explain later why in Rom 6:4, clause A is "We were buried with him by baptism into death" and clause B is the last of the highlighted clauses: "We might walk in newness of life" not the second one. (Basically, it's because the second clause is subordinate to the last one.)

Rosie, let me first complement you for the excellent work you put forth to help Tes.

You are very correct that "in order that" subordinates its clause to another one. However, I have a revision to suggest for how to understand "in order that." It is a translation of ἵνα most commonly used to denote purpose. To use your examples you could write "I brought my umbrella for the purpose of not getting rained on" or "I say this for the purpose that no one may delude you with plausible arguments." The point is not that A must happen for B to come to pass (although that may be true) but that the author/God is being intentional with his actions. There are other ways to avoid getting wet besides using an umbrella, staying inside or using a poncho could work as well . In Paul's letter to the Colossians he wrote with the purpose of preventing them from being duped; it was not A) a guaranteed of success or   a preclusion of another agent prevent the deluding.

See Wallace pp 678-9 and 749 for some more examples and other examples of how ἵνα is used.

Thank you muchly to Rosie and Dominick and Kevin. I really appreciate your "sharings" with the Logos Community.

You, Kevin, just encouraged me to order Wallace which I did. Logos ought to give you a bit of a discount on your next order for promoting this book. *smile* Will be so happy to have it in my library when it comes and I eagerly look forward to using it. Even though I have Portfolio and most of the other important study "stuff" that scholars need, I will quite pleased when "Beyond the Basics" arrives.

Yours in Christ, ........... Mel

Postscript!

A Very, Very Sad P.S. addressed to Logos and Bob!

Bob, I am one of those who is always speaking up positively for Logos, in some posts even defending Logos. Just love L4. Hardly ever use L3 except for sentence diagrams and pbbs...

HOWEVER, I am extremely disappointed in having to pay $21.50 American Dollars and/or $22.20 Canadian Dollars to get this book! It is so unnecessary, and it puts me behind in my family budget book budgeting allowance because even though it is a gift from my wife to me (She's Beautiful! *smile*) ..... it still has to come out of the family budget and that delays the time before I can affort my next Logos book. Am signed up for a fantastically lot of pre-pubs, so if one comes due too soon it will cause a bit of a difficulty in my family budget.

And! It is SO unnecessary.... And! You are hurting Logos sales in a sense by our having to spend money on expensive postage....

Please make this book a download so others do not have to suffer the same fate! Please.

Wallace is a birthday gift from my wife about two weeks early because I've been following this post. We live on a pension, and now - after I finish this post - I have to walk into the kitchen where she's getting supper ready and inform her that her $41.26 birthday gift is actually costing her 63.56 with the United States Postal Service and Canada Post splitting the difference and chuckling over their great unexpected gain! *smile* I'm still joking a little, but, Bob ........... this has to stop ..... I will probably have to pay duty and sales tax on it also. People all over the world need the "download" option.... Please!

Kevin Becker said:

Milford,

I'm glad to hear that you have ordered Wallace. It's the best intermediate Greek grammar on the market IMHO.

The reason why postage is charged is that it is a Galaxy Software title. Logos cannot sell it online any more than they can the IVP Essentials library because of the restrictions put on them by the actual publisher.

Thank you very much for your post, Kevin.  So I guess that Logos has their hands tied behind their backs on this one.  I hope that possibly someday Galaxy would revise it's way of doing things and maybe might change their policy.  I imagine that Logos has to pay Galaxy something for my ordering their book through Logos anyway, since I think that Logos itself does the mailing of the product. 

My Church's publishing house is Concordia Publishing House.  Concordia, I'm sure, gets a bigger profit if people would buy it directly from them.  However, they have chosen to list their products at Logos also.  Just looked at the commentary on Revelation (by Louis Brighton - a fantastic commentary) on the Logos Site and that also comes for Logos 3 on a CD.  When I ordered that, I put it in my Logos 3, synchronised licenses, and it dowloaded immediately onto Logos 4.

Just now I ran that book through to the Logos Site's purchase page to see what would happen.  Blows my mind.  I ordered it from Concordia directly because as a retired pastor (they call it Emeritus  -   *smile*) ................    I get a very nice discount although I am completely loyal to Logos for my non-CPH purchases ....        just discovered that the postage for that book is even higher!            Wow!

Thanks for writing, Kevin.

Bob, please ignore what I said in my post about it being so unneccesary -    I should have realised you have no option available at the present time   .....

hope you can get that option soon for the future .........     Then, we Logos users wouldn't "have to buy a dead horse" over and over again!      *smile*

Yours in Christ,         Milford

 ....   although now wondering what there's such a difference in the postage for both a single CD????????????????????????????????????

 

Dominick Sela said:

(a) Since we know sentence diagramming is coming, have you considered putting this on the wiki so it's not lost?  It could be an excellent intro to sentence diagramming, or just in an area of general bible study tips. 

I hadn't thought of that, but perhaps we could put an area of general bible study tips and links back to the forum if the topic was fully written up here rather than duplicating it on the wiki. However with some of th excellent suggestions from you and others, I could edit it to improve it. In any event, I've marked it as a favorite post so I can easily come back and find it and do something with it.

Dominick Sela said:

Rosie Perera said:

So this clause "all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death" is the A in the causal relationship which "therefore" sets up, and B is "We were buried with him by baptism into death." In this case, the causal relationship seems to be that B is merely a further elaboration of what A means. Again, it's not that A caused B to happen, but because we know A is true, then we understand that B is true too.

Re: the bolded text, I might humbly add to this explanation that there is a little more than just a further elaboration, as it basically says, with the qualifiers removed,  "We were baptized in his death" therefore  "we were buried into death".  It seems that is a useful thought to contemplate, how baptism implies (therefore) death. The verse in 6.4 really builds on the prior verse, it's not just an elaboration IMHO which may just be my own view on the topic (and I have NOTHING else to add to the exhaustive job you did!).

Yes, you're quite right, though it's probably a quibble over wording. I should have left out the word "merely" as that implies I thought "elaboration" was a trivial rewording of something. But it's not. It's essential here. (Then again "mere" doesn't necessarily trivialize what comes after it, as we know well from C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity, which might just as well have been titled Essential Christianity since that's pretty much what he means by it.). Yes, baptism implies burial, but I was trying to explain (clumsily) that grammatical causation doesn't always mean what we think of when one thing causes another (e.g., "I pressed the button which caused my umbrella to open"). It's more subtle than that. In the very baptism lies the burial into death. It isn't that baptism causes burial into death. It is in some mysterious spiritual sense equivalent with burial into death (we don't literally die when we're baptized). So here "therefore" is could be translated "which means that" or "which implies that."

Kevin Becker said:

You are very correct that "in order that" subordinates its clause to another one. However, I have a revision to suggest for how to understand "in order that." It is a translation of ἵνα most commonly used to denote purpose. To use your examples you could write "I brought my umbrella for the purpose of not getting rained on" or "I say this for the purpose that no one may delude you with plausible arguments." The point is not that A must happen for B to come to pass (although that may be true) but that the author/God is being intentional with his actions. There are other ways to avoid getting wet besides using an umbrella, staying inside or using a poncho could work as well . In Paul's letter to the Colossians he wrote with the purpose of preventing them from being duped; it was not A) a guaranteed of success or   a preclusion of another agent prevent the deluding.

See Wallace pp 678-9 and 749 for some more examples and other examples of how ἵνα is used.

Thank you for that much clearer explanation. I was trying to avoid needing to look at the Greek words, since I wanted to show that a language novice could still get a lot out of a text just by looking at the English translation and working with the sentence structure (and that was the gist of Tes's question anyway). But that doesn't mean the person doing the explaining can't refer to his or her own knowledge of the underlying Greek in order to give a better example in English. I don't know Greek so I failed on that point, but you picked up the slack and gave a wonderful elucidation. I loved the way you stayed with my umbrella and rain analogy. [:)] And thanks for the recommendation for Wallace. It's already on my list of things to buy, but has been lower priority because it's CD only and I'm still hoping that one day Logos will be able to make all of its partner products available as downloads.

JM said:

'Ow do you know so much about sparrows?

Well, you have to know these things when you're an MVP, you know. BTW, it's swallows. And do you mean African or European swallows?

JM said:

--From Monty Python's Holy Grail for those of you's who haven't seen the movie...Rosie, I'm pretty sure you have ...And I know Dan has...

Here's the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2R3FvS4xr4  Yes, I own it on DVD, as well as Life of Brian, Meaning of Life, and the entire set of all the Flying Circus episodes. And I just bought and watched for the first time the oratorio "Not the Messiah" which was produced to commemorate the 40th anniversary of Monty Python. In the musical genre of Handel's Messiah, but based on the story line from Life of Brian, it stars Eric Idle with appearances by Michael Palin, Terry Jones and Terry Gilliam. It is utterly enjoyable if you liked Life of Brian. Filled with classic Monty Python silliness and some unexpected surprises (one of which isn't even hinted at in the trailer).

EDIT: Ha! The formatting of that post was kind of messed up so I just had to edit it and when I looked at the HTML I saw immediately why. I had to edit out some span junk that ended with this: </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>. Given the Monty Python theme, it reminded me of spam-spam-spam-spam-spam-spam-spam-spam-eggs-and-spam. [:)]

JM said:

I wore out my VHS copy of The Holy Grail memorizing the movie line for line and then purchased the DVD, AND I saw Spamalot on Broadway too...Harumph!  I didn't get a harumph from you...  Now where is that from?

Oh yes, I saw Spamalot on Broadway too. Forgot about that.  And I also have Monty Python's Contractual Obligation Album (the unexpurgated version, the one with the "Farewell to John Denver" track) on cassette somewhere, and most of their other albums on CD, and The Complete Monty Python's Flying Circus: All the Words (2 vols) and The First 20 Years of Monty Python. I even saw the virtually unknown Jabberwocky (a Michael Palin / Terry Gilliam collaboration) in the theatre once. So yeah, if there's one thing I'm almost as much of an addict of as I am of the Logos forums, it's Monty Python.

(BTW, pretty much all the sketches are available for free on YouTube on the Monty Python channel now. After years of everyone posting pirated versions, they decided to get back at everyone; they made an official channel and are giving away all their content for free, in high quality video. So there! Take that, pirates!)

And you asked where's harumph from? It's onomatopoeia, from the sound of someone clearing his throat.