How do we rate commentaries?
How do we rate commentaries?
Rosie Perera commented that the best one is “the one that you wrote yourself in PBB format after carefully weighing all the evidence from all the [other] commentaries”
He also said “But you probably need to do some Googling to find out which authors come from which perspectives”
Many of the other posts on commentaries rate them by scholarship but I am not sure I want to read an author who puts the Millennium at the wrong end of time J
How many ways do we split Christians or how do we rate commentaries so that I know that it agrees with my ‘’one and only correct J ’’ Christian Beliefs?
Doctrine Criteria might be: ((perspectives))
A) Where do they put the Millennium? [Now, Before Jesus comes back, After He comes back]
Where do they put the 70th week of Daniel? [before 75 AD or far in the future]
C) What starts the count of the 69 weeks, 70 weeks, and 2300 days?
a. Cyrus in Ezra 1
b. Darius in Ezra 6
c. Artaxerxes’ seventh year in Ezra 7
d. Artaxerxes' twentieth year in Neh. 2
e. Something else?
D) Dispensational? Covenant theology?
E) Conservative? Liberal?
F) Evangelical? [What is the opposite of an Evangelical?]
G) Predestination or Free Will
PLEASE Join in – How many other Doctrine Criteria do we use to split Christians from Heretics J ? What other things do we need the author of a Commentary to tell us of their bias so that we can know if we will agree with the author or consider them wild heretics?
Also needed is a simple test to check for ourselves? [That is what do we Google?]
[for example: if I want to know that commentary XXX is Evangelical I search for YYY and find ZZZ]
[We will need a search to test for each Criteria and its opposite]
Comments
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David,
This is certainly a legitimate concern and one you will need to do a lot of research on. However, this is not directly the purpose of the Logos forum which is to assist each other in using Logos. True we use commentaries, but which commentaries is up to us, not Logos or this forum. Once we've made our choice, this forum comes into play. Of course you can seek advice on commentaries and other books here, and recommend books to be published by Logos, but discussing the criteria by which to rate commentaries is outside the reason we help each other here. When you begin to ask people here to help you separate the faithful from heretics you are taking the discussion outside the realm of this forum. For more information be sure to check the Forum Guidelines if you haven't. You can find them here: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/10072.aspx
There are forums and groups better devoted to answering questions such as this. I believe you'll be better served posting this sort of question there.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Would it be within forum guidelines to ask which commentaries are (for example) liberal or conservative but leave out any judgment about who is right or wrong? I would like to know what commentary authors fall into which belief system.
By the way, I have no problem reading an author whose beliefs differ from mine. I actually spend quite a bit of time doing so.
Thanks,
Ron
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A lot of this information can be gleaned by doing a Google search. I also find Wikipedia a good source for background material on many authors. Also, as you get to know members of the forums, you will begin to know whose opinions you trust or admire. There are some here whose opinions I look forward to hearing. There are others whose recommendations I tend to avoid. But it would be non-useful for me give such a list -- your ideas WILL differ from mine. Just keep reading and you will find who is who over time.
Yours because His,
Floyd
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Ronald, like you I find listening to opposing views is a valuable use of time. It doesn't mean I will change my position, but it can open my eyes to a truth I have missed or did not fully understand. It can also lead to some very in-depth discussions that are very enjoyable, if done from a "love" perspective.
In Christ,
Ken
Lenovo Yoga 7 15ITL5 Touch Screen; 11th Gen Intel i7 2.8Ghz; 12Gb RAM; 500Gb SDD;WIN 11
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David Ames said:
He also said
By the way Rosie is a "she", but I am sure she is still honored to be quoted.
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RonaldQuick said:
Would it be within forum guidelines to ask which commentaries are (for example) liberal or conservative but leave out any judgment about who is right or wrong?
I don't think the guidelines would hinder one from asking or one from trying to answer. But one person's liberal is another person's conservative and visa versa. I think trying to put all authors into one of two boxes is bound to get some folks upset by the box you assign someone to. That might begin to cross the guidelines.
I research commentaries all the time. The Internet is a good place to do that. Most commentaries have been reviewed by someone and you can find that on the 'Net. I don't always know all the beliefs of the author when I buy a commentary, but that's OK for me. It might not be for others. In my opinion, trying to impose a rating system is bound to end up pleasing the person who assigned the ratings but probably few others. Learn what you can and buy those you believe will profit you is what I recommend and do. You'll make some mistakes. We all do.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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David Ames said:
How do we rate commentaries?
While I sometimes like to know if a particular commentary will be Augustinian or Arminian, pre-mill/post-mill/amill, etc., my first instinct is to ask some of the following questions:
- will it deal in depth with the many issues of a verse or pericope?
- does it deal with context?
- Is it focused on exegesis, theology, or giving good illustrations?
- can I afford to purchase it. [:)]
etc.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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In addition to http://bestcommentaries.com which someone else already recommended, there are a few books I know of that rate commentaries, two of which we have available in Logos format:
There's an appendix in the back of How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth (Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart) which lists the top few commentaries (in the authors' opinions) for each book of the Bible. This book was published in 2003, so any commentaries published after that date would be missing.
And there's D.A. Carson's New Testament Commentary Survey (Baker Academic, 2007). This is an excellent resource, because not only does it list and rank and review commentaries, but it compares them one with the other. Here's an example of the kind of writing (one paragraph out of the chapter on commentaries covering 2 Peter and Jude):
"By far the best work on 2 Peter and Jude is the exhaustive commentary by Richard J. Bauckham (WBC; 1983, £19.99/$39.99). There is no relevant literature up to his time that Bauckham has not considered, and he here puts to good use his knowledge of second temple Judaism and some of the more recent Gnostic finds. Why he concluded that 2 Peter is pseudonymous is still not clear to me: his evidence does not strike me as very convincing (see the brief but penetrating critique in the appendix of Grudem on 1 Peter). But this point should not put anyone off using what will be the standard in the field for decades to come. The contribution by Jerome H. Neyrey (/AB; 1993, $28.00) cannot compare with it. In any case, Neyrey’s reconstruction of the settings of these epistles, though entertaining, is too speculative to be very useful to the serious preacher. Methodologically, he combines historical exegesis with approaches grounded in cultural anthropology, social science, and ancient rhetoric. This sometimes yields thought-provoking insight; more commonly, it builds castles out of thin air. His forays are so un-self-critical and so dogmatic that the commentary becomes an exercise in frustration. The contribution of Steve J. Kraftchick, on 2 Peter and Jude (/ANTC; 2002, $20.00), is far more useful to the preacher. Because he begins with exegesis, the NIVAC volume by Douglas J. Moo (1996, £24.99/$22.99) is worth reading. Don’t overlook the FoB commentary by Paul Gardner (1998, £7.99/$14.99), certainly one of the stronger entries in that rather light series. The contribution by Edland Waltner and J. Daryl Charles, on 1 and 2 Peter and Jude (BCBC; 1999, $24.99), is so much akin to the corresponding updated commentaries by J. Daryl Charles in the new EBC (vol. 13; see above on Hebrews) that it is not worth using both."
Unfortunately, the corresponding Old Testament Commentary Survey by Tremper Longman III (Baker Academic, 2007) is not available in Logos format. I hope that's just "not yet available" and that this lack will be addressed at some point. I've already suggested it.
Of course any commentary review is only as valuable to you as your trust of the author and his or her alignment with your theological perspective. But it's easier to research these authors and see if you find them to be trustworthy guides than it is to replicate all the commentary research they've done.
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To add to Rosie's list above, these are also available in Logos,
- Commentaries
for Bible Expositors http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/COM4EXPROSSCUP - Tools
for Preaching and Teaching the Bible http://www.logos.com/products/details/3623
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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David Ames ASKED “How do we rate commentaries?”
>>>> David did NOT ask us to RATE them just how to rate them.
Two posters suggested books – have both that one listed and ordered one from the other list.
[will start reading – as soon as the download ends]
Some web sites were suggested and have looked at one – will follow up.
Thanks to all – (off line – have three books I need to read that have all the answers)
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I will add another to Ted and Rosie's list "The Review of Biblical Literature (9 volumes)" is a worthwhile investment for researching commentaries and other books.
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Ted Hans said:
To add to Rosie's list above, these are also available in Logos,
- Commentaries
for Bible Expositors http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/COM4EXPROSSCUP - Tools
for Preaching and Teaching the Bible http://www.logos.com/products/details/3623
Ted
I didn't know we have those in Logos, thanks Ted.
Bohuslav
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Rosie Perera said:
There's an appendix in the back of How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth (Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart)
This is a great book. I refer back to it all the time.[Y]
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Fred Chapman said:Rosie Perera said:
There's an appendix in the back of How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth (Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart)
This is a great book. I refer back to it all the time.
Yes, I agree 100%
Bohuslav
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Mark A. Smith said:RonaldQuick said:
Would it be within forum guidelines to ask which commentaries are (for example) liberal or conservative but leave out any judgment about who is right or wrong?
I don't think the guidelines would hinder one from asking or one from trying to answer. But one person's liberal is another person's conservative and visa versa. I think trying to put all authors into one of two boxes is bound to get some folks upset by the box you assign someone to. That might begin to cross the guidelines.
I hadn't thought about that. I can see how this could develop into an area that would cross the forum guidelines.
Thanks
Ron
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RonaldQuick said:
I can see how this could develop into an area that would cross the forum guidelines.
It can be a problem especially if it sounds like one assumes everyone will agree with their viewpoint. However, who better to ask about a resource than those who have it. It seems to me that the safest approach it to state ones own religious bent and ask others to evaluate a resource with respect to that viewpoint. I'd hope that people sharing the viewpoint would give good advice and the rest of us stay out of the discussion. It may take time for such an approach to work - it depends a bit on the tone of the forums as a whole.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Ames said:
How do we rate commentaries?
When I first read your post I chuckled at the degree to which I didn't have the slightest idea what you were talking about in many of your distinctions. I've finally decided, however, to give my own criteria for rating commentaries - just because you'll likely find it equally worth a chuckle.
1. Does the commentary show me the underlying structure of the text?
2. Does the commentary indicate the difficulties in translation and offer the alternatives with their pro's and con's?
3. Does the commentary present connotations as well as denotations?
4. Does the commentary offer inter-textual relationships?
5. Does the commentary show the changes in interpretation over time?
6. Does the commentary assist me in questioning the Scripture i.e. lead me into deeper study?
Somehow, this is not conducive to inclusion of questions such as Darius in Ezra 6... although I am going to have to look in some commentaries that came in my Logos package to see why on earth that might come up.[:)] Thanks to you, I will learn something even if I not quite sure what.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith wrote
2. Does the commentary indicate the difficulties in translation and offer the alternatives with their pro's and con's?
Try : [or my turn to help to thank all that have helped me]
United Bible Societies' New Testament Handbook Series (20 Vols.) ($400)
United Bible Societies' Old Testament Handbook Series (21 Vols.) ($400)
Have found these two very useful over the years. Target audience is translators into new languages.They cover some of the problems we get into when moving from on language to another.
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I second the recommendation of UBS handbooks. Always the first commentary I refer to.
I like to check out the sample pages of commentaries. I want them to answer the sort of questions I am asking, but many commentaries are more technical than I need. I'm a Christian trying to understand the Bible and teach it to others, in a different language and from a Muslim/communist dictatorship background. I feel capable of working out the application for myself once I have a reasonable understanding of the text and context. So I personally don't go for preaching and teaching aids. I appreciate reference to the original Greek and Hebrew, but don't feel I need to go into all the pros and cons of all possible textual variants.
I also recommend Bible Speaks Today (only NT, unfortunately), Cornerstone (Logos, that was a smart move giving us a taster of cornerstone for free!), Tyndale Commentaries, Expositor's Bible Commentary. ( I also got ICC, and now regret the expenditure on something more technical than I need. I don't often use it now that I have the other resources). That little lot answers most of my questions and keeps me occupied for the rest of my Bible study time, after I've got as far as I could with the text before turning to the commentaries....
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A couple of points/questions I thought I would add to this discussion.
- In order for users to rate commentaries we need to be able to look at "sample" pages. Many of the products available for Logos do NOT include sample pages. This seems strange.. Is this a copyright issue? I have been tempted to ask for users to post example pages here in the forums on occasion.
- I understand that Logos has a 30 day return policy. Do they expect us to purchase and "try out" some of the books and then return them if we don't like them? If so how many have you done this, and how many times? There are quite a few products I would like to check out but I have been hesitant to really make use of the return policy.
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Nathan Barnes said:
A couple of points/questions I thought I would add to this discussion.
- In order for users to rate commentaries we need to be able to look at "sample" pages. Many of the products available for Logos do NOT include sample pages. This seems strange.. Is this a copyright issue? I have been tempted to ask for users to post example pages here in the forums on occasion.
- I understand that Logos has a 30 day return policy. Do they expect us to purchase and "try out" some of the books and then return them if we don't like them? If so how many have you done this, and how many times? There are quite a few products I would like to check out but I have been hesitant to really make use of the return policy.
Hi Nathan,
I thought I'd point out that neither does Amazon.com show you sample pages of every book they sell. In fact, they didn't used to show sample pages at all. It's pretty amazing that we can see any sample pages at all, something that until recently was only available if you went into a book shop and physically flipped through a book, and now all of a sudden we're upset if an online bookseller doesn't show us sample pages of every single one of the books they sell? You need to watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk [:)]
All kidding aside, though, it does take time to make scans of all those pages and hook them up to the product description page so that they come up in the proper sequence when you page through the sample pages, etc. Logos has some 15,000 books in their catalogue, probably 95% of which have been in their catalogue since before they started showing sample pages. That's a huge backlog to get through to add all those sample pages. I suspect they are working through the backlog as quickly as they can. There might also be copyright/permission problems in some cases. They'd have to get the rights from the publisher to show the sample pages, and that might take time. That might be part of why Amazon doesn't show them for all the books they sell, too.
As for your second point, no, the 30 day return policy is not because Logos expects people to buy books to "try out" and return if you don't like them. It is simply good customer service to offer a return policy. If for any reason you aren't happy with a purchase, they will make it right for you and return your money if they can't. That return policy does cost them some money, but they are betting that in the long run it will make more happy customers. So don't view this policy as a way to check out books Logos doesn't have sample pages of, unless it's something that, based on every other piece of information you can glean on it, looks like a book you'd like to own.
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If we are going to judge a commentary based on whether or not its doctrinal perspective agrees with what we already believe, then what is the point of reading a commentary? If we already know all the truth, who cares what someone else thinks?
Someone once said, "Do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good." That is a good policy to follow with commentaries.
Commentaries are valuable if properly used. They should never be used until after we do some solid inductive study on the text. I benefit more from commentators whom I disagree with than those who are parroting my own beliefs. They stretch my mind.
Don't close yo mind so tight that ya can't get any ventilation in there.
Just my opinion.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
It does ask RATE not JUDGE as in what is the BIAS not who is RIGHT - and Yes, reading what others think is often enlightening
and rule number one is don't open the commentaries until you have used just the Bible to tell you every thing you can get all on your own (with help from on high as needed)
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Nathan Barnes said:
In order for users to rate commentaries we need to be able to look at "sample" pages.
There is one other "Christian Book" seller on the web that does include sample pages. I always check them before making a purchase. Unfortunately they don't always have everything Logos offers.
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Pam Larson said:
There is one other "Christian Book" seller on the web that does include sample pages. I always check them before making a purchase. Unfortunately they don't always have everything Logos offers.
Also I've found that if you Google the title of the book (in quotes), along with this exact text that's in bold {TOC | "Table of Contents"} (the vertical bar or "pipe" character means OR and the curly brackets are necessary to group the ORed items, exactly like parentheses in a Logos search), you can often find the publisher's website or another bookseller that shows you the Table of Contents of the book. I'm hoping with the coming of the newly redesigned Logos website, whenever that happens, they'll begin to add TOC previews for all books.
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Many of these questions on the 69 weeks are outdated.
In the december 2009 Journal of Evangelical Theology an article appeared that stated quite convincing that the 69 weeks are related to the ''then Messiah (an ordinairy title for leaders)'' Nehemiah. All Cyrus and Darius dates etc fall into place in this new light.... The article points also to Jesus but more as a 2nd phrophecy fulfillment....
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The author of the article referenced (McFall, Leslie) re-dates everything (he could be correct BUT) He has Nehemiah's governorship end when most others date the beginning of his mission.
That is he has Nehemiah returning to Babylon when all others have him leaving Babylon
Or about 445 BC And the logic of that argument is in “a previous article” (but a link to that source is listed)
(Goggle the Journal listed above)
Who is correct depends on when Nehemiah was governor. (and I have not yet read the TWO articles)
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I've finally come up with a way to rate books, incidental to a conversation on the blatant inaccuracies in some of Alice Walker's feminist new age world mythology books. [Does that make it clear that I am not dissing any Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Zoroastrian, Hindu, Buddhist, Baha'i, Taoist, Shinto, Gnostic ... theology?] Every author cited in a book has an option for putting a warning label on the book. You divide the number of warning labels by the number of authors cited and you've got your rating.[:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Now I have read the two articles
I could accept that Nehemiah was governor prior to his asking the king for leave
But not the other - I would tell you why but that would be out side of Forum Rules
That does NOT (IMHO) resolve the issues for all time - Thanks for pointing out the articles
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I am interested why, my m@il adress is: pastorton at ymail dot com and we'll continue the discussion.
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