How can I find how many manuscripts there are?
In Logos (or elsewhere), how can I find a current list of how many Greek manuscripts there are of particular books? Such as how many manuscripts we have of Matthew, how many manuscripts there are of Mark, etc. If there is also a way to find out how many versions/translations there are of each book would also be great, such as how many Syriac manuscripts there are of Matthew, etc.
Jason Saling
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I seem to recall seeing a table once (maybe it was in Evidence that Demands a Verdict?) which showed how many manuscripts we had of each NT book, as compared to...say...Homer, or even the much more recent Shakespeare. The point being we have way more manuscript evidence of the authenticity of New Testament biblical books (and fewer variations among them) than we do of an older book which most people take for granted as authentic and fairly accurate.
Yes indeed, my memory serves me. I just looked it up in Amazon.com, and it was Evidence That Demands a Verdict (the 1992 edition, volume 1) that I was thinking of. Too bad it's not available in Logos format. Here are a few excerpts from the print edition (fair use) but due to copyright issues, you'll need to go look at the sample pages on Amazon.com yourself to see more.
I was surprised to see that Amazon lets you browse through most of the pages in this chapter (which begins on p. 40). Just search for reliability in the Look Inside This Book feature and scroll around from there. Sometimes you can see the missing pages by searching again on a word you see in an adjacent page and then scrolling back or forward a page from that latter search result.
Then again, I'm not sure how accurate or up-to-date Evidence that Demands a Verdict is. How many manuscripts of it do we have, and has it been translated into Syriac, etc. [;)]
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Hi Jason.
Jason Saling said:In Logos (or elsewhere), how can I find a current list of how many Greek manuscripts there are of particular books? Such as how many manuscripts we have of Matthew, how many manuscripts there are of Mark, etc. If there is also a way to find out how many versions/translations there are of each book would also be great, such as how many Syriac manuscripts there are of Matthew, etc.
Bible Study Magazine had an infographic with some description on this. You can see the article online:
http://www.biblestudymagazine.com/interactive/newtestament/
The second graphic (scroll down just a bit) sounds like what you're looking for. The primary infographic is inside the Logos Infographics resource, so you can probably see that one in Logos 4 too.
Hope it helps.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Rick Brannan said:
Bible Study Magazine had an infographic with some description on this. You can see the article online:
http://www.biblestudymagazine.com/interactive/newtestament/
The second graphic (scroll down just a bit) sounds like what you're looking for.
Thanks, Rick. That's helpful, notwithstanding the bad grammar: "Amount of 5th Century and before Copies" and "amount of copies" Eggh! It's "number of copies" -- amount is for a non-countable substance such as water. I know you're not to blame, but you brought this to light, so maybe you can pass on the word to the person who made that infographic. Maybe it can be corrected in a future update. (Too late for the already published Bible Study Magazine article.)
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The question is complicated by the fact that many of the "manuscripts" are nothing more than tiny fragments. Should those count? (Notice on the Bible Study Magazine page how it says "Small fragments and whole books count the same.")
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I don't know how interested in this subject you are, but a book by James wegner (The Journey from Texts to Translations: The Origin and Development of the Bible/ Paul D. Wegner/Baker/2004/ISBN: 0801027993) is a great resource for studying the basics of manuscripts. It has a lot of tables and an index to quickly find them. Unfortunately I couldn't find it on Logos.
On the chapter Sources for NT Textual criticism it talks a little about this. He mentions the different collections and how many copies there are in them. He also mentions in another chapter the other versions (i.e. not Greek ). There is a table on page 228 that talks about the different text families and their sources. (it is adapted from J.H. Greenlee's book Introduction to New Testament Criticism) It shows how many manuscripts represent each text family (Alexandrian, Caesarean, Western, and Byzantine) and the specific manuscripts for Gospels, Acts, Pauline Epistles, General Epistles, and Revelation.
While there are at least 5400 known fragments or manuscripts many of these are in other languages. If you are interested this book explains all of this in easy to understand terms.
Sorry if I seem to ramble[:S]
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Jason, if you have a print NA27 there will be an insert with a list of manuscripts, what they cover (it's only a generalization, i.e. a manuscript may be of the Gospels but it doesn't tell you if that means all of them). Also the front matter will include a list of the main manuscripts that the eclectic text was drawn from. It won't be an exhaustive list of what's available but is should give you a snapshot of which texts the editors considered to be the most reliable.
Someone with the SESB: does your edition of the NA27 have this info?
Prov. 15:23
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Jason Saling said:
In Logos (or elsewhere), how can I find a current list of how many Greek manuscripts there are of particular books? Such as how many manuscripts we have of Matthew, how many manuscripts there are of Mark, etc. If there is also a way to find out how many versions/translations there are of each book would also be great, such as how many Syriac manuscripts there are of Matthew, etc.
The number of mss is a moving target. While many of them are not of earth-shattering significance, they continue to find mss of the NT or lectionaries.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Kevin Becker said:
Jason, if you have a print NA27 there will be an insert with a list of manuscripts, what they cover (it's only a generalization, i.e. a manuscript may be of the Gospels but it doesn't tell you if that means all of them). Also the front matter will include a list of the main manuscripts that the eclectic text was drawn from. It won't be an exhaustive list of what's available but is should give you a snapshot of which texts the editors considered to be the most reliable.
Someone with the SESB: does your edition of the NA27 have this info?
I do not have SESB (yet) but in my paper version of NA26 I have list of the Greek and other manuscripts. It surely will be in NA27 also.
Bohuslav
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:Kevin Becker said:
Jason, if you have a print NA27 there will be an insert with a list of manuscripts, what they cover (it's only a generalization, i.e. a manuscript may be of the Gospels but it doesn't tell you if that means all of them). Also the front matter will include a list of the main manuscripts that the eclectic text was drawn from. It won't be an exhaustive list of what's available but is should give you a snapshot of which texts the editors considered to be the most reliable.
Someone with the SESB: does your edition of the NA27 have this info?
I do not have SESB (yet) but in my paper version of NA26 I have list of the Greek and other manuscripts. It surely will be in NA27 also.
Of course it is. I have a print NA27 and the front matter is very helpful, but mostly related to how to use the apparatus. That's why I asked if it was in the SESB since that's the only way to get the Apparatus. Also, I wanted to keep my comment Logos related in some way [:)]
Prov. 15:23
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Daniel Wallace has a website, http://www.csntm.org/ , for his organization which is in the process of searching for, digitizing, and cataloging all NT manuscripts. They keep the info very well up to date.
Of course his book "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics", which has nothing to do with NT Textual Criticism, but is (or already has) becoming a standard for intermediate Greek grammar, is available in LOGOS, http://www.logos.com/products/details/1517
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George Somsel said:
The number of mss is a moving target
One of the reasons I was wanting to know if there was a "central" place/website of all currently known manuscripts was because I was doing a study in regards to authenticity of the last 12 verses of Mark. The great thing about Logos, I was able to do an easy search throughout the my library on all the articles/resources that deal with the topic/debate. The bummer part was that most of the resources were one sided, thinking the last 12 verses were not authentic, yet at the same time admitting that there is a problem with ending after verse 8, concluding that whatever was after verse 8 is "lost." I don't buy into that, Jesus said his words would never pass away, so I'll take his word for it.
Some things I was able to gather in my study...
Reasons Against it's Inclusion
• Vaticanus and Sinaiticus do not include the last 12 verses of Mark (being two of the oldest known Greek manuscripts)
• The last 12 verses of Mark have 17 Greek words that Mark didn't use in the rest of the Gospel of Mark (therefore someone else must of added it)
• It speaks of taking up serpents and drinking poison, "not consistent with what God would want his church to be involved in"
Reasons FOR it's Inclusion
• According to some scholars the two 4th century manuscripts (Vaticanus and Sinaiticus) are suspect and often don't match readings between each other, nor with the majority of Greek manuscripts
• In the Sinaiticus there is a blank space at the end of Mark sufficient to fit the last 12 verses of Mark
• In the Vaticanus, it is obvious that pages are missing. One page ends at Mark 16:8 and then next page starts up at Luke 1:18 (we don't discredit the first 17 verses of Luke, it's obvious that a page(s) were missing)
• 99% of Greek manuscripts of Mark contain the last 12 verses. (This I couldn't verify, therefore being the reason I wanted to see if there was a "list" of all the Greek manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark, since I do have a list of Greek manuscripts that do NOT contain the last 12 verses, so if I knew how many total manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark there are, then I would be able to confirm how many greek manuscripts DO contain the last 12 verses.)
• The majority of ancient translations contain it, Latin, Syriac, Gothic, most of Georgian, Coptic, and many others. Also in translations during the Reformation period, in German, French, Spanish, and multitudes of others.
• Several Christian writings (church fathers) are dated earlier (2nd & 3rd century) than the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus (4th century), and they quote portions of the last 12 verses of Mark.
• Some lectionaries dated earlier than the 4th century quote from the last 12 verses of Mark
• It would be an awkward and unnatural stop for the text to end after verse 8. It doesn't make sense in greek grammar, plus the book would end on a note of fear, and of not sharing the good news, no appearances of the resurrected Christ, no victory, no Great Commission, no ascension.
This was an interesting and balanced article I read http://apologeticspress.org/articles/2780
On a scholarly side for it's inclusion is John Burgon's work "The Last Twelve Verses of Mark: Vindicated Against Recent Critical Objectors & Established" (It'd be great to see his works in Logos!)
Jason Saling
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Jason Saling said:
Reasons FOR it's Inclusion
Being Pentecostal I find your study very interesting... [:)]
Bohuslav
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You probably already know of http://www.csntm.org/ but it is very pertinent with regards to the continued discovery of additional manuscripts.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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George Somsel said:Jason Saling said:
In Logos (or elsewhere), how can I find a current list of how many Greek manuscripts there are of particular books? Such as how many manuscripts we have of Matthew, how many manuscripts there are of Mark, etc. If there is also a way to find out how many versions/translations there are of each book would also be great, such as how many Syriac manuscripts there are of Matthew, etc.
The number of mss is a moving target. While many of them are not of earth-shattering significance, they continue to find mss of the NT or lectionaries.
Perhaps the best place to look online is the "Virtual Manuscript Room" which has a version of the Kurzgefaßte Liste online, though you've got to kind of know what you're looking for in order to find it. That is, I don't readily see an easy way to "give me all the MSS that have some portion of Mark" type query.
http://intf.uni-muenster.de/vmr/NTVMR/ListeHandschriften.php
From the front page of the VMR, look for the "List" button on the right.
Hope it helps.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Jason Saling said:
• 99% of Greek manuscripts of Mark contain the last 12 verses. (This I couldn't verify, therefore being the reason I wanted to see if there was a "list" of all the Greek manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark, since I do have a list of Greek manuscripts that do NOT contain the last 12 verses, so if I knew how many total manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark there are, then I would be able to confirm how many greek manuscripts DO contain the last 12 verses.)• The majority of ancient translations contain it, Latin, Syriac, Gothic, most of Georgian, Coptic, and many others. Also in translations during the Reformation period, in German, French, Spanish, and multitudes of others.
• Several Christian writings (church fathers) are dated earlier (2nd & 3rd century) than the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus (4th century), and they quote portions of the last 12 verses of Mark.
• Some lectionaries dated earlier than the 4th century quote from the last 12 verses of Mark
Manuscripts are not to be counted but evaluated. The best manuscripts DO NOT contain the Markan ending. It matters not at all that 99% or 99.99% of the manuscripts contain it. If the mss are of little value otherwise then the value of their testimony to the Markan ending is likewise of little value. Supposed references to Mk 16.9-20 are generally to Luke 10.19. And supposed lectionaries antedating the 4th century are simply false. There are no such lectionaries.
A prerequisite for the emergence of such lectionaries is firm ecclesial organization which regulates the sequence of the celebrations of the church year, the liturgical arrangement of these celebrations, and the determination of Bible texts, prayers, hymns, etc. to be read. However, for historical reasons, such organization is nowhere imaginable before the 4th century. But since 95 percent of the 2,252 extant lectionary mss and fragments, i.e., over 2,000, show uniform arrangement in reference to the succession of days and celebrations and to the choice of pericopes, something more must stand behind these mss: a world church, such as it arose from the 5th to the 7th century in the Byzantine church with its center in Constantinople, dominant for Eastern Christianity.
Freedman, D. N. (1996, c1992). The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary (4:271). New York: Doubleday.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
And supposed lectionaries antedating the 4th century are simply false. There are no such lectionaries.
George, anyone else I would let by on this (maybe) ... but how do we know no such lectionaries exist? I'd easily agree no such lectionaries have been found ... but you are usually so careful and its been eons since I've teased you.[:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I have questions and I do not expect answers. I have noted some lose ends in this thread. And I have been told by friends that some of my questions are ‘cans of worms’. One thing that I have noted is that often questions asked do not get answered. That positions taken do not get countered – that may be outside of the forum rules.
One post
• In the Sinaiticus there is a blank space at the end of Mark sufficient to fit the last 12 verses of Mark
• In the Vaticanus, it is obvious that pages are missing. One page ends at Mark 16:8 and then next page starts up at Luke 1:18 (we don't discredit the first 17 verses of Luke, it's obvious that a page(s) were missing)
The Sinaiticus and the Vaticanus are considered two of THE BEST if not THE BEST TWO. [Students: Search and find verification]
Is there a missing page? [Reference please]
Is there a blank space sufficient to fit the last 12 verses? [Reference please]
Is there a detailed evaluation of these points? [Reference please] (like other missing pages and other blank spaces)
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MJ. Smith said:George Somsel said:
And supposed lectionaries antedating the 4th century are simply false. There are no such lectionaries.
George, anyone else I would let by on this (maybe) ... but how do we know no such lectionaries exist? I'd easily agree no such lectionaries have been found ... but you are usually so careful and its been eons since I've teased you.
While it is true that we cannot state with absolute certitude that lectionaries never were used prior to the 4th century and the Constantinian establishment, such is rather unlikely for the reason stated in the ABD article I cited. Given the perishible nature of the materials used for the composition of any such lectionaries, the attempts of many scholars to discover old manuscripts and the limited number of locations in which it might be preserved, I seriously doubt that we are likely to find such in the future baring another Oxyrhynchus. In any case, to maintain that lectionaries prior to the 4th century exist which provide evidence for the longer ending of Mark is manifestly false.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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David Ames said:
The Sinaiticus and the Vaticanus are considered two of THE BEST if not THE BEST TWO. [Students: Search and find verification]
Is there a missing page? [Reference please]
Is there a blank space sufficient to fit the last 12 verses? [Reference please]
http://www.csntm.org/Manuscript/View/GA_03 gives you the images of the Vaticanus ... they probably have the Sinaiticus as well.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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[read prior post to get link]MJ. Smith said:gives you the images of the Vaticanus ... they probably have the Sinaiticus as well.
Did NOT look at every book ending. Did lookat Mat, Mark, Luke, John and Acts
Normal spacing is to leave the rest of the column empty
At the end of Mark they leave the normal space and all of the next column
Each page is a jpg file - did not go looking for blank space on none book ending pages
http://images.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA_03/GA_03_0024a.jpg
There is a large space at the end of Mat
It extends from where the text ends to the bottom of the column
http://images.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA_03/GA_03_0037a.jpg
There is a large space at the end of Mark
It extends from where the text ends to the bottom of the column AND leaves the next column empty!
They did leave the needed space and Luke starts on the next page (37b)
37a is a right side page 37b is a left side page
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David Ames said:
[read prior post to get link]MJ. Smith said:gives you the images of the Vaticanus ... they probably have the Sinaiticus as well.
Did NOT look at every book ending. Did lookat Mat, Mark, Luke, John and Acts
Normal spacing is to leave the rest of the column empty
At the end of Mark they leave the normal space and all of the next column
Each page is a jpg file - did not go looking for blank space on none book ending pages
http://images.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA_03/GA_03_0024a.jpg
There is a large space at the end of Mat
It extends from where the text ends to the bottom of the column
http://images.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA_03/GA_03_0037a.jpg
There is a large space at the end of Mark
It extends from where the text ends to the bottom of the column AND leaves the next column empty!
They did leave the needed space and Luke starts on the next page (37b)
37a is a right side page 37b is a left side page
I would suppose from what you write that you are implying that there was sufficient space to have included the longer ending of Mark. The fact is, however, that the scribe did not see fit to include it. He rather indicates that the Gospel according to Mark is ended by using the usual bracketting device of indicating the name of the work -- ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΡΚΟΝ. He thus intentionally indicates that the the gospel is concluded at this point. There can be little question that the same hand wrote both the gospel itself and the name which brackets the gospel. Is there some inconsistency in leaving more than a partial column of blank space between Matthew and Mark? Undoubtedly so, but humans are not always totally consistent.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
I would suppose from what you write that you are implying that there was sufficient space to have included the longer ending of Mark.
He rather indicates that the Gospel according to Mark is ended by using the usual bracketting device of indicating the name of the work -- ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΡΚΟΝ.
Thanks for the Training session.
Updated report follows:
Codex Sinaiticus
http://www.codex-sinaiticus.net/en/
PROCEDURE: find a Greek bible. Copy and paste Mark 16:9 and change to upper case
Used Aland, K., Black, M., Martini, C. M., Metzger, B. M., Robinson, M., & Wikgren, A. (1993; 2006). The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition (with Morphology) (Lk 1). Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft.
Mark 16:8 (or so)
ΕἶΧΕΝ ΓὰΡ ΑὐΤὰΣ ΤΡΟΜΟΣ ΚΑὶ ἔΚΣΤΑΣΙΣ· ΚΑὶ ΟὐΔΕΝὶ ΟὐΔὲΝ ΕἶΠΑΝ· ἐΦΟΒΟῦΝΤΟ ΓΑΡ.
Find the correct page – does the text match? - YES
Next examine the next text – does it match Luke 1:1? YES
Luke 1:1
1 ἘΠΕΙΔΗΠΕΡ ΠΟΛΛΟὶ ἐΠΕΧΕΙΡΗΣΑΝ ἀΝΑΤΑΞΑΣΘΑΙ ΔΙΗΓΗΣΙΝ ΠΕΡὶ ΤῶΝ ΠΕΠΛΗΡΟΦΟΡΗΜΕΝΩΝ ἐΝ ἡΜῖΝ ΠΡΑΓΜΑΤΩΝ,
No gap found in the text in that copy
What about space to insert Mark 16:9-20
There is a space (to the bottom of the column) 22.5 cm high
Look at beginning of Mark and end of Luke – Space?
Mark 1:1 starts a new page. After end of Mat. there is a Blank Column
At end of Luke there is a space to the end of the Column
At end of John there is a space to the end of the Column
At end of Romans there is a space to the end of the Column
Go back to the other manuscript (Vaticanus)
http://images.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA_03/GA03_037a.jpg
The text at the end of Mark is 16:8 (tested as above)
The text at the start of the next page (tested as above) seems to be Luke 1:1
Findings (after looking at images of the texts in question)
There were no missing parts of Luke noted – After Mark 16:8 comes Luke 1:1 – both texts
There may be the needed space to insert the “rest of Mark” in both texts
Note that the space here is larger than the space found at the end of other books.
However there is a line of text that we have been told marks the end of text
Have been told that it is by the same hand as the core text.
[to the posters that told me those things – please do not take offence – I am trying to word this scholarly and doing a good job of getting egg on my face]
I am not sure if the other posters will take a look but I did and will agree that it does not look like there were missing pages and that there are other reasons to think that the scribe thought he was done at verse 8.
[[that was fun – thanks to one and all for sending me on the Wild Goose Chase – in the last couple of weeks “YOU” [other forum posters] have cost me about 12 hours of research time (and I still have one more long one to research) before I could come back – That is the first time I have intentionally opened a Greek Bible – I may not be able to read it but I can compare letter by letter when that is what is needed]] " humans are not always totally consistent" How true
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Here's my two cents.
I know the original post was asking about Greek manuscripts, but I wanted to comment on the difficulty determining the number of manuscripts in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The counts vary because many times it is difficult to determine if a fragment is part of an already known manuscript or a new one. This has also occurred among the Greek manuscripts with P4, P64 and P67.
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