A new type of pre-pub - it isn't in print yet!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168244#Comment_168244

The sum of all the "tidbits" costs $700

One could argue the first tidbit costs you $700. No money, no tidbit.

By that logic, your first issue of Christianity Today costs the price of an annual subscription. Wink

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168233#Comment_168233

But the nice thing about this is that we'll be thrown little tidbits along the way to keep us happy.

Those tidbits cost you $700, one would think an alternative would be worth considering...

It is a little bit like buying a car. If you put cash on the table you get a better price. This analogy doesn't work all the way through. (MJ will confirm most of my analogies don't [;)] , and she is correct.) Buying the car, you get to drive the whole thing home on purchase day.[au]

Looking at the authors already assigned, I expect this set to be be well worth the Pre-Pub price. If I never get to use those tidbits maybe my grandsons can use them in sermon preparation. It could turn out to be the best thing I leave to them.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168216#Comment_168216

Dan while we appreciate the initial response and appreciate not all questions can be answered Richard makes a point that Logos really need to go back and look at if they want us as customers to get behind this project with open arms. There needs to be some sort of 6, 9 or 12 month payment plan on this project for us to seriously consider getting behind it. We do indeed live in exciting times, the best of times even, but also in another sense the worst of times.
I still want a payment plan Andrew. I don't know if one will be forthcoming. I do believe that in this case I at least have a known time frame for planning. I have seven months to start saving, though it's a bit optimistic to think that I'll be able to save the full amount by then. I'm just going to have to take the stance that I'll save what I can, read the releases as they come and make a decision before it costs me a $.

Yeap I agree we have time to save, but it comes back to the issue if people commit to this they are potentially going to cancel other pre-pubs to do so, and they are then faced with a choice of dropping something they know they are going to get full value for they're money upfront v something they are not going to get full value for till ten years down the track..... now ten years down the track they will (hopefully) look back and say that was a good buy, if they can get over the fact they are asked to being asked to pay $700 for the first volume..

... now that's a bit more than a magazine subscription which for which you normally expect to get your accrued value within 12 or 24 months rather than 120 or potentially more months. I'm in for now and will see what happens .... off to cull some other pre-pub orders though in the meantime. There's a limit to how much I can save.

Dan Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168216#Comment_168216

What I'd like to hear more about is the way that E-publishing is going to provide for an even greater commentary than paper publishing. I don't mean in terms of shear Logos integration - not that I'm making light of it. But I'm talking about the way that the authors will feel more freedom in going ahead and typing that extra excursis out because they know there's room and it won't end up being cut just because it means more pages.

Thomas, you are right on! This is a theme I really care about, and brought up in a blog post a few years ago named, Tell me everything you know—in five words or less...

Since that post, Bob and I have had many "discussions" [A] about whether that is a good idea or not, because editing is a lot like refining gold. Take a massive lump, remove the dross, get pure gold, forge it into a nice ring. I agree that editing is great for that purpose if all you want is a nice gold ring. That's what the abridged version is for... but why not have the unabridged and "seriously extended" version available too, so when you really need to know why your uncle Bilbo Baggins is trying to attack you and get that nice ring back, you can go all the way back to the mountain they mined the gold in, the river they found it in, and the battles fought over it. [:P]

We will definitely have an option for a special type of payment plan. We don't have the technical specs in place to even offer a payment plan on Pre-Pubs right now, and we don't think this will necessarily fall into even the normal payment plan style. In other words, no matter what happens, it will most likely all be handled on a personal interaction level, with a range of options for the best way to handle it for each customers' unique situation and preferences.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168255#Comment_168255

One could argue the first tidbit costs you $700. No money, no tidbit.

By that logic, your first issue of Christianity Today costs the price of an annual subscription.

Yep - but I don't think a subscription costs anywhere near $700 - people wouldn't be discussing this if the price was $50 [;)]

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168303#Comment_168303

We will definitely have an option for a special type of payment plan.

Based on this, I put in my order.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168303#Comment_168303

We will definitely have an option for a special type of payment plan. We don't have the technical specs in place to even offer a payment plan on Pre-Pubs right now, and we don't think this will necessarily fall into even the normal payment plan style. In other words, no matter what happens, it will most likely all be handled on a personal interaction level, with a range of options for the best way to handle it for each customers' unique situation and preferences.

Dan, You just struck gold. (pun intended)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168236#Comment_168236

I know for a fact that some of the authors of this series are actually using our software and actively reading our forums right now.
Hi! I'd like to invite the authors to let us hear a little of their excitement too.

Likewise. And I hope the authors that are reading the forums are learning all kinds of awesome things they can do with Logos that will help them in their efforts. For example, someone recently just asked about using visual filters to color all the Eissfeldt sources and I answered. While that might not be something contemporary scholarship is still doing massive amounts of work with, it still might come in handy for a commentary author.

I think a link correction Rosie: Old School VF with AFAT! - < http://community.logos.com/forums/p/22549/168234.aspx#168234 >

Mathew Haferkamp

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168372#Comment_168372

From what has been stated about this product on this thread, I would think that they believe this is going to be all that they have said and more. For the reason I believe the costs involved in this are going to demand sells during the project are essential, and that is after some have been released. I would imagine to just break even.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168372#Comment_168372

I know for a fact that some of the authors of this series are actually using our software and actively reading our forums right now.
Hi! I'd like to invite the authors to let us hear a little of their excitement too.

Likewise. And I hope the authors that are reading the forums are learning all kinds of awesome things they can do with Logos that will help them in their efforts. For example, someone recently just asked about using visual filters to color all the Eissfeldt sources and I answered. While that might not be something contemporary scholarship is still doing massive amounts of work with, it still might come in handy for a commentary author.

I think a link correction Rosie: Old School VF with AFAT! - < http://community.logos.com/forums/p/22549/168234.aspx#168234 >

Whoops! Right you are. I had something completely unrelated still in my clipboard and just pasted that without verifying it. Sorry. [:$]

Chris Thompson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168421#Comment_168421

I posted this in the other thread...but I think it is applicable here[:)]

Think I should stop now, and check into a 12-step program?

There is enough evidence to at least open such a debate.

...But First...Don't you think we should petition Logos to produce a collection of Christian 12 step books?

JimTowler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168260#Comment_168260

Buying the car, you get to drive the whole thing home on purchase day.

We are used to paying the full price up front for many things. In fact, maybe most things we normally buy.

Thinking of a new SUV for US$50,000 ... and then going on a road-trip the next weekend. That trip just cost $50K, and then the SUV is free for the new 2-3 years until you sell it or whatever.

With this new resource, the first book will cost US$700, and the rest are free. Same thing in a way ...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168581#Comment_168581

Buying the car, you get to drive the whole thing home on purchase day.

We are used to paying the full price up front for many things. In fact, maybe most things we normally buy.

Thinking of a new SUV for US$50,000 ... and then going on a road-trip the next weekend. That trip just cost $50K, and then the SUV is free for the new 2-3 years until you sell it or whatever.

With this new resource, the first book will cost US$700, and the rest are free. Same thing in a way ...

A new car every 2-3 years.. I wish...

... somehow I don't see it quite the same way when I buy the new (or in my case second hand car) i get all the parts straight away I don't have to wait up to ten years down the track with some parts still not decided upon who is going to make them.....

williamvarner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168216#Comment_168216

I am a contributor to the EEC. I think that it is more than just another commentary - there are plenty of series going right now - because Logos is sponsoring it and because they have the resources not only to produce a unique format (digital and print) but also because they are respected and have real marketing muscle.

I have been with Logos from its beginning (2 51/4 floppies mailed to me home to test it!) when it began as an English Bible program. When it became obvious that other premier Bible programs were directed to a more scholarly clientèle, Logos made the decision, hired the people, spent the money, and developed the resources - and now they are situated to also be THE program for scholars on the PC, AND they are emerging into the Mac Market with a quality product.

There is a danger in announcing some major project before the first volume is finished, but it is also a good strategy, at least for me. This publicly commits both Logos and me to produce the product. It puts me under obligation to finish - and do it well! To have my due date now made public adds to the "pressure" that many of us need to complete the project. We don't want to be publicly embarrassed! Now most scholars won't express it that way, but I will be bold enough to do it, and I thank Logos for doing it this way. Yes, there is always the possibility of egg on our face, but we all know that most of us work better under a deadline.

As for the remuneration - people need to know that academic publishing usually pays authors NOTHING! Logos has been fair to us. I already have Platinum, and I don't know where I would put all the smaller resources in Portfolio anyway. I am being adequately compensated.

Questions will remain, of course. No process is ideal and perfect. But the professionalism that marks Logos has been obvious to us.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168592#Comment_168592

... somehow I don't see it quite the same way when I buy the new (or in my case second hand car) i get all the parts straight away I don't have to wait up to ten years down the track with some parts still not decided upon who is going to make them.....

Please note that the current pre-pub option for this series is not the only option Logos will have. But it will be the most cost-effective; that's the benefit of going all-in on the ground floor.

If you look above to Dan Pritchett's last post you'll read this:

We will definitely have an option for a
special type of payment plan. We don't have the technical specs in place
to even offer a payment plan on Pre-Pubs right now, and we don't think
this will necessarily fall into even the normal payment plan style. In
other words, no matter what happens, it will most likely all be handled
on a personal interaction level, with a range of options for the best
way to handle it for each customers' unique situation and
preferences.

So other payment options are coming. They just haven't worked out how to do it yet. It will likely cost more than the current option, but with less risk and an extended payment option, I expect this to put the series cost to the buyer at around or above 1/2 the suggested retail price of the series (SRP is about $2200), instead of the ridiculously low $700. (BTW, I have no inside information about what the price for a payment plan option might be. I'm just making a guess based on what I think Logos would do.)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168598#Comment_168598

I am a contributor to the EEC.

Great to hear from you, William! I am looking forward to the EEC, and I hope that using Logos Platinum ends up being a real benefit to you as you work on your volume.

Teresa

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168189#Comment_168189

I would like the "why" question clearly answered, why do we need a new commentary set? What will it add to what is already available and why will it add value?

EDIT

I agree with you Mike. Why do I need a new commentary set and what is different about it than the others?

I never bought a new car I didn't test drive first no matter how trustworthy the sales man.

And I am saving my money for the TDOT which will be a must have and when it comes out, (whenever that is), I want to be ready.

Scott S

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168598#Comment_168598

I am a contributor to the EEC.

Dr. Varner, I'm so pleased that you posted, I hope other contributors do also.

As for the remuneration - people need to know that academic publishing usually pays authors NOTHING!

Wow. I had no idea . . .

Edwin Bowden

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168598#Comment_168598

I am a contributor to the EEC. I think that it is more than just another commentary - there are plenty of series going right now - because Logos is sponsoring it and because they have the resources not only to produce a unique format (digital and print) but also because they are respected and have real marketing muscle.

I have been with Logos from its beginning (2 51/4 floppies mailed to me home to test it!) when it began as an English Bible program. When it became obvious that other premier Bible programs were directed to a more scholarly clientèle, Logos made the decision, hired the people, spent the money, and developed the resources - and now they are situated to also be THE program for scholars on the PC, AND they are emerging into the Mac Market with a quality product.

There is a danger in announcing some major project before the first volume is finished, but it is also a good strategy, at least for me. This publicly commits both Logos and me to produce the product. It puts me under obligation to finish - and do it well! To have my due date now made public adds to the "pressure" that many of us need to complete the project. We don't want to be publicly embarrassed! Now most scholars won't express it that way, but I will be bold enough to do it, and I thank Logos for doing it this way. Yes, there is always the possibility of egg on our face, but we all know that most of us work better under a deadline.

As for the remuneration - people need to know that academic publishing usually pays authors NOTHING! Logos has been fair to us. I already have Platinum, and I don't know where I would put all the smaller resources in Portfolio anyway. I am being adequately compensated.

Questions will remain, of course. No process is ideal and perfect. But the professionalism that marks Logos has been obvious to us.

Welcome to the forum!

Glad to know that you are a veteran of Logos users. What additional capabilities will the EEC have because it is built on the Logos format?

I'm sure that Logos users would be interested in any insights that you might share concerning the unique place that the EEC will have among commentaries that seem to have a similar purpose (ZEC and BEC to mention some in progress).

I was surprised to hear that academic publishing normally provides no pay. I assumed that supplemented your normal academci pay (which I'm sure is not extravagant).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168599#Comment_168599

Please note that the current pre-pub option for this series is not the only option Logos will have. But it will be the most cost-effective; that's the benefit of going all-in on the ground floor.

Yeap I have noted that Richard. Just find people (not only JimT) are scrambling to come up with analogies that really don't describe the situation at all.

JimT I appreciate you, just not the analogy in this case.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168598#Comment_168598

As for the remuneration - people need to know that academic publishing usually pays authors NOTHING!

Thanks for chipping in Dr Varner, and I an not surprised by that at all by your statement.

As we all wrestle with this, and what is appropriate for each of our own individual circumstances please be aware that we do appreciate the work you and your fellow authors are putting into this series and we do want to see it a success. So take our discussion of this issue an indication of the fact that we want to all be able to support this project, we're just trying to figure out how.

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168642#Comment_168642

I am really excited about the project and I am in. Payments plan would be great [Y]

Paul N

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168652#Comment_168652

My current payment plan is:

Sept 1, 2010 -> Apr. 1, 2011 = 7 months

7 months / $700 = $100 / month

Deposit in old coffee can until first book arrives!

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168598#Comment_168598

I am a contributor to the EEC.

Welcome to the forums Dr. Varner!

I went to the EEC web site and took a look at which volume you're working on, and your bio & picture. James, huh? Not sure what it would be like to not only teach on 3:1 (& ff), but teach others how to teach on it. Scary. Of course, I would never presume to teach on that passage (cough, cough). [;)]

What you wrote above was also interesting to me. I did not know that academic authors often don't get paid for their work. That's just not right. I'm sure Logos will continue to be fair with you.

I do look forward to hearing more about the series.

Thanks for chiming in. Please keep us updated, as much as you are able.

EDIT: BTW, I'm really curious to read what you have to say about James 5:15's use of euche, as the only NT use of that word translated 'prayer.' I don't find a discussion on that use of euche that I've found satisfying (elsewhere in the NT euche is translated 'vow'). As a Logos user who regularly does word-studies, I'm intensely curious about things like this. Most commentaries either ignore or pass over the unique translation here. Anyway, no need to answer the question here and now, as I'm willing to wait until Sept. 2012, and look up your definitive commentary on that passage.

Paul N

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168684#Comment_168684

When Dr. Varner says "academic publishing" I assume it includes scholarly journals and magazines where there is some incentive/demand from a Seminary/University to be published. This is an interesting subject though!

williamvarner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168686#Comment_168686

Yes, I meant MOST academic journals but magazines usually offer a stipend. I am referring to those primarily academic publishers, especially the European ones (Brill, Peter Lang, TandT Clark, etc.). In America you have Mellen Press, Unversity Press of America, etc. They sometimes pay you a pittance once your sales reach to a certain level (lots of luck on that one among academic books!). Zondervan Academic and Baker Academic may be different. However, when I co-authored with Zondervan, they paid me an initial lump sum - not to retire on! - but no royalties afterward on the sales. They make the bucks, not their authors. Zondervan and Tyndale, for example, made mega-millions on their prophecy novels and Christian self help books, but didn't always share the wealth with their other authors. Perhaps I am airing some dirty laundry here about some publishers. The key thing to remember is: If you want to make dough as an author, do what one publisher told me. Write to answer a felt need question that a lady wants answered when she comes into a Christian book store. "How do I ...?"

Profs are used to this academic issue and know that any published book looks good on their c.v., but for many articles and books, that's all it is.

Hey, the word and the Word does get out! Who is complaining? WE ARE NOT IN THIS FOR MONEY! Well, the prophecy mongers are, but maybe someone will still get saved as the authors are headed to the bank with their dough! I just meant to say that Logos is an exception to the GENERAL rule in publishing, both academic and otherwise.

Will

JimTowler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168638#Comment_168638

Yeap I have noted that Richard. Just find people (not only JimT) are scrambling to come up with analogies that really don't describe the situation at all.

JimT I appreciate you, just not the analogy in this case.

Hi Andrew.

Its OK - I'm not even sure if I agree with myself on the new-car story. I was attempting to convince myself why it was OK for me to commit to his project to the tune of US$700. I could get WBC or any number of other things for that kind of money. My last dentist bill was for more than EEC will be, and so was my eye-glasses. My new suit last week cost about 2/3 of EEC. Its just money ...

I think I want to believe that this will be something special, and that there will be some rewards. I hope, some to myself (a great commentary set), but to others too. I already have some commentaries that say something like: "In these verses, Paul writes to encourage Timothy". Its no surprise that I find little or no worth in such a comment, and that I seek more. If someone eats and sleeps a given book of the Bible, and has been doing so for the last 20,30,40 years then I hope they have something to say that is worth me reading about.

My pre-order is in, so now I need to trust God that I will find employment in time to be able to pay for the set in April 2011.

Me saying goodbye to a new SUV, and hello to more of the things that build treasure in heaven ... [au][au][au]

Alain Maashe

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168748#Comment_168748

This is intended to be constructive.
If I am to invest $700 on an untested product, there are some hard questions
that I would like to see answered.

While my heart longs after a
commentary like the ECC, my head is asking whether the series can reach its
very very ambitious goal and do something that no series has been able to
achieve (I am not referring to the print versus digital idea).

The series intends to be scholar and
technical (“regularly cited in academic works, discussed at conferences, and
subject to rigorous scholarly review… ready to engage in rigorous critical
scholarship”) but also non-technical at the same time (“accessible enough that
it would enrich the Bible study of anyone who wanted to use it to understand
God’s Word more deeply”).

The reason why a commentary series with
similar goals has never been published is pretty simple, it is very difficult
if not impossible to make a commentary that will be cutting-edge, advance the
scholarly discussion, be useful to specialists in the various fields and at the
same time not intimidate the “uninitiated”. It is hard to have not one but
dozens and dozens of scholars turn complex discussions of ancient Hebrew,
Aramaic, Greek and cognate languages, textual criticism, the finer points of
archeology, comparative literature and other extra biblical material into something accessible to “anyone who
wanted to use it to understand God’s Word more deeply”.

Some of us, after years of seminary education
still need help to understand contributions from the various fields of biblical
studies reported in technical commentaries. I really doubt that not only one
writer but a large group of scholars will be able to do something that no one
has done before and successfully make
very technical issues accessible to the masses (without diluting it).

My fear is that the various audiences
targeted by the EEC will make it “Jack of all trades and master of none”. To satisfy
the scholar, a commentary on Luke will probably have to be as detailed (and
massive) as the standard of today (Bock two volumes in BECNT is considered by
many to be the standard). Should I mention others books with the volumes in the
NICOT, ICC, AYBC, HCOT and so on? I am aware of the fact that size is not all,
but size will be involved if a commentary wants to satisfactorily deal with the
current issues in “critical scholarship” and advance the discussion in order to
be “regularly cited in academic works, discussed at conferences, and subject to
rigorous scholarly review”.

This is already a problem without
even including the added length necessitated by the exposition of the text, theological
discussions, and various helps for “sermon preparation”.

A solution (if you can call if a
solution) might be to have a huge volumes or multi-volumes with sections
serving scholars, pastors, and your “average” Christian respectively.

The problem with this solution is
that the buyer might have to justify buying a commentary that only has 1/3 to
1/2 of useful content (I doubt that many “regular” Christians will be
interested in a detailed discussion of Q or a comparison of Hittites and
Assyrian suzerain-vassal treaties and their impact on the structure of
Deuteronomy).

By the grace of God, I have numerous
commentaries on each book of the Bible. However, the commentaries most useful for
academic research are seldom also useful for preparing a message or devotional
time. I also found that I turn to various specialized commentaries depending on
what I seek to accomplish and that I avoid the “jack of all trades” most of the
time.

I am not confident that a single
commentary will replace Hamilton (NICOT), Wenham (WBC) on the technical side,
supplants Ross’ Creation and Blessings
for exposition, and overtake Hughes (PTWC) for preaching.

Another factor that will make it
difficult is that few scholars are equally competent in technical issues,
exegesis, exposition/theology, and preaching (something that each of the
authors will need to be).

While I greatly respect the proposed
authors, some of them have not necessarily distinguished themselves as leading experts
or authorities in the specific book they intend to write on. While it does not
necessarily means that they cannot write a good commentary, it makes me
question whether or not it is realistic to expect their work (for some the
first publication of commentary) to become I quote “ a scholarly caliber [commentary]
that … would be regularly cited in academic works, discussed at conferences,
and subject to rigorous scholarly review”

I believe that
Logos will have to sell many of us on the feasibility of such a project (with
something more than a clever marketing pitch) and provide concrete evidence
that its very ambitious goals can be reached (something that would satisfy me
greatly).

There is a
reason why no series has every accomplished what Logos proposes to do (especially
with single author commentaries), I would like to see more details on how
exactly Logos intends to do the almost impossible. I would then gladly put $700
towards the acquisition of such a groundbreaking resource. Yes I am skeptical,
but I want to believe my heart.

Alain

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168755#Comment_168755

I believe that Logos will have to sell many of us on the feasibility of such a project (with something more than a clever marketing pitch) and provide concrete evidence that its very ambitious goals can be reached (something that would satisfy me greatly).

There is a reason why no series has every accomplished what Logos proposes to do (especially with single author commentaries), I would like to see more details on how exactly Logos intends to do the almost impossible. I would then gladly put $700 towards the acquisition of such a groundbreaking resource. Yes I am skeptical, but I want to believe my heart.

Good post Alain, excellent questions and analysis of the situation. All I can say at the moment is that we should be able to see some of this in the previews and review sections that are, according to Dan, forthcoming. It is those preview sections that are going to make or break the deal for many people including myself.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168598#Comment_168598

I am a contributor to the EEC. I think that it is more than just another commentary -

Indeed, welcome! I'm glad you took the time to post. We are all excited about this opportunity. Frankly I really want the series because it promises to be unrestrained in breadth and depth (due to page counts).

I already have Platinum, and I don't know where I would put all the smaller resources in Portfolio anyway.

Hmm. I was hoping you'd get Logos unobtanium (all 10000+ resources) But if you're already struggling to use more than Platinum. I'm not sure it'd be worth it. (Quite a marketing slogan for Platinum though, "The foundation for the EEC" or "EEC: built with Scholars Platinum".

Questions will remain, of course. No process is ideal and perfect. But the professionalism that marks Logos has been obvious to us.

I'm glad to see that this is visible on the author's side as well. As a customer I've often seen the professionalism and just plain Christ likeness of the folks at Logos. I'm quite pleased to hear that it extends into the back room bargaining sessions.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168755#Comment_168755

My fear is that the various audiences
targeted by the EEC will make it “Jack of all trades and master of none”. To satisfy
the scholar, a commentary on Luke will probably have to be as detailed (and
massive) as the standard of today (Bock two volumes in BECNT is considered by
many to be the standard). Should I mention others books with the volumes in the
NICOT, ICC, AYBC, HCOT and so on?

Maybe I am naive in my understanding of scholars and academics since I am neither. But from a pragmatic perspective we did not know the quality of scholarship of the tomes that became "the standards" until they were penned. The wisdom and understanding was already present and just needed to be committed to the page and finessed. It is always sorrowful to lose a
learned Christian when you know their accumulated knowledge was not
passed on to subsequent generations.

The authors slated for the
EEC have already displayed critical thinking skills. The application of
those skills to a new work should not be questioned so long as they have
knowledge of the topic.

By the grace of God, I have numerous
commentaries on each book of the Bible. However, the commentaries most useful for
academic research are seldom also useful for preparing a message or devotional
time. I also found that I turn to various specialized commentaries depending on
what I seek to accomplish and that I avoid the “jack of all trades” most of the
time.

I am not confident that a single
commentary will replace

As ambitious as the EEC project is, I do not think it is intended to replace other quality works, but to enhance your library with more depth & quality.

One of the reasons Logos is so useful is the reality of having "Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and cognate languages, textual criticism, the finer points of archeology, comparative literature and other extra biblical material" all together in one library, tagged, indexed and instantly searchable.

You have to concede there are unique examples of fine scholarship in each of these sets. Why deny the inclusion because of weak spots? We will certainly benefit from having EEC regardless of it's shortcomings. (And it will have some.)

I need not be overwhelmed with variegated search results. I can use several tools to fine tune my hits.

Proverbs 11:14 "Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety."

Lastly, Do I need all these commentaries? I doubt it. I certainly won't exhaust my library before I leave this body. However, when I go to the beach I am grateful God over-did creation. I don't need the beauty, expanse and wonder of the ocean just to go swimming. Likewise, EEC will be a worthwhile addition to whatever resources we already enjoy.

OFF-TOPIC addendum: How about Morris Proctor get together with Pastor Lynden Williams and host a Camp Logos in Nassau, Bahamas so we can all swim in the excessively over-done beauty............

Mathew Voth

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168849#Comment_168849

I am personally very excited about this commentary series, especially since I am a Logos user. However as I was thinking about it I began to consider users of other software (i.e. Accordance), and thought how painful it would be to know that you could never access this particular series. While there have been many valid concerns voiced here, I am pretty sure the only thing you would hear if the tables were turned would be verging on envy! So if another company, such as the aforementioned, ever does likewise and produces a series exclusive to their platform, what will we do?

It is my hope that should that day come, that the respecitve companies can come to an agreement whereby users can purchase these sets across platforms.

Thoughts?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168865#Comment_168865

how painful it would be to know that you could never access this particular series. While there have been many valid concerns voiced here, I am pretty sure the only thing you would hear if the tables were turned would be verging on envy! So if another company, such as the aforementioned, ever does likewise and produces a series exclusive to their platform, what will we do?

I don't encourage the bragging contest. It get's ugly real quick.

We (Logos users) have already experienced that a few times. I happen to really like The Complete Biblical Library that is apparently under exclusive contract with "the other guys" for a few years.

My response could be to: 1) do without it, 2) run dual multiple programs to access across the divide 3) wait & hope Logos picks it up when the exclusivity rights have expired.

Logos response could be 1) develop their own similar reference works 2) try to negotiate a industry "sharing" by eliminating exclusivity 3) make Logos 5.0 capable of running WordSearch, PDF, eSword, BibleSoft resources (not possible?)

In a perfect world all the software would work on all the machines, and be FREE [:D] !

Jonathan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168877#Comment_168877

I am excited about this commentary set. I only wish that Logos would move away from the philosophy of only selling an entire set. It would be nice if we could order commentaries on an individual basis.

I love a number of the NICOT/NICNT commentaries, but will not buy them on Logos. Why do we have to buy a set of commentaries (ranging from $700-2000) to get the four-five commentaries that we are interested in? I would ask Logos to take a serious look at changing this part of their marketing philosophy. I think you would sell a lot more commentaries and probably pick up a number of new users.

I understand that Logos is at the hands of the publisher in some instances, but with EEC Logos is the publisher! I wonder if Logos is actually the one who does not want to sell commentaries on an individual basis.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168883#Comment_168883

I understand that Logos is at the hands of the publisher in some instances, but with EEC Logos is the publisher! I wonder if Logos is actually the one who does not want to sell commentaries on an individual basis.

I am excited about this commentary set. I only wish that Logos would move away from the philosophy of only selling an entire set. It would be nice if we could order commentaries on an individual basis.

You are right about Logos & the EEC project. It might be a "All for one & One for all" 3 musketeer type of philosophy.

I do believe some of the publishers don't want their sets sold by individual volumes. I predict that will change. But be prepared to pay $40~50 per volume when they offer them.

If everybody bought every Logos title the prices could be set ridiculously low. The real world economy does not work out that way. When a store goes out of business and marks down everything, the "good stuff" sells quickly. Some stuff won't sell for 99% off. I'd buy Crum's Coptic Dictionary http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5970 for 99% off. [:P] I DID get the Russian Bible for 100% off Русский Синодальный Перевод http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/rst . I wonder who underwrote that development. It must have cost Logos something to make it available.

JJ Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168192#Comment_168192

Yes, it really is a bold plan.

It is so bold, that no one in the traditional print publishing industry thought it could be done. I know what some of you are thinking... "The people reading this thread right now think it can't be done too!"

For all intents and purposes, a project of this scope was thought to be a thing of the past, but we were not content to sit by and watch it die. Major new commentary series should be written. Scholars shouldn't have their full knowledge of a subject limited to 500 words. Big projects should not be abandoned because they are too hard to do, or aren't guaranteed to make tons of money.

We are risk-takers.

Thank you, Dan, for the well written and detailed overview. I agree, it is a bold plan and it is EXCITING! I am aboard.

I read some people who have a great deal of hesitancy. You know, I am married to a lovely woman who would NEVER purchase ANY prepub, and certainly not something with a timeline that we are looking at. Her temperment thinks such things are foolish. I don't think that anyone who likes all their "i's" dotted and "t's" crossed is going to be completely comfortable with a project of this type... not until things get further along. And that is AOK.

I know that Logos is going to take care of its customer base.. I am absolutely assured of it based on my past experience with this company. And while I never want to be foolish with what little money we have, I am certain that the EEC set will be as described and getting it for about $15 a volume is a steal.

However, I couldn't help but consider something. This set may very well go on the Portfolio Edition of Logos. If that is being consdered, perhaps something can be done to BRING MONEY INTO THE PROJECT NOW, and gather more Portfolio users at the same time: PUT EEC Prepub on the Portfolio Upgrade. Sweeten the deal with the KNOWN so that people's comfort level is increased. Adjust pricing as needed, but the benefit to Logos is clear: You will have money in the coffers NOW for further development on this project (as people ordering an upgrade to the Portfolio edition would be paying for that now (knowing they also qualify for the EEC when available). Win. Win.

EEC on Portfolio makes great sense too. That set needs one OUTSTANDING Commentary Set to make it truly irresistible. And those who want a Payment Plan would then have one.. that is, if they upgrade to Portfolio and chose the payment plan option. Win. Win.

Since Logos specializes in making the impossible a reality, it sounds like a great way to accomplish it!

Thanks for all your incredible work on this project thus far! We are very excited to say the least. And thanks so much for announcing this now, instead of much later!

God Richly Blesses,

Ronald Quick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168896#Comment_168896

I went ahead and placed my order to lock in the lowest price. I'm looking forward to it, I just hope my wallet (and wife) give the go ahead for the purchase when it comes available.

Levi Durfey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168899#Comment_168899

Initially, I was skeptical about this pre-pub deal, but after reading this thread over the past few days, I grew warmer to the idea.

I talked to my wife, and to my surprise, she had little resistance to the idea -- in fact, she was kind of excited that this would be the first major commentary series to be digital before it goes into print.

So this morning, I locked into the pre-pub price. Now I need to start saving for April!

I was working on Psalm 23 this morning for a funeral, and found that my selection of commentaries was somewhat limited for Psalms. So I am even more excited that the first volume of the EEC will be Psalms.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168896#Comment_168896

OFF-TOPIC addendum: How about Morris Proctor get together with Pastor Lynden Williams and host a Camp Logos in Nassau, Bahamas so we can all swim in the excessively over-done beauty............

Now there's an idea! [:)] Hallelujah for the "festal muchness" of our Creator, as my arts-pastor/author friend David Taylor puts it.

My response could be to: 1) do without it, 2) run dual multiple programs to access across the divide 3) wait & hope Logos picks it up when the exclusivity rights have expired.

A fourth option would be get the print version if/when available; not ideal but better than doing without completely.

However, I couldn't help but consider something. This set may very well go on the Portfolio Edition of Logos. If that is being consdered, perhaps something can be done to BRING MONEY INTO THE PROJECT NOW, and gather more Portfolio users at the same time: PUT EEC Prepub on the Portfolio Upgrade. Sweeten the deal with the KNOWN so that people's comfort level is increased. Adjust pricing as needed, but the benefit to Logos is clear: You will have money in the coffers NOW for further development on this project (as people ordering an upgrade to the Portfolio edition would be paying for that now (knowing they also qualify for the EEC when available). Win. Win.

EEC on Portfolio makes great sense too. That set needs one OUTSTANDING Commentary Set to make it truly irresistible. And those who want a Payment Plan would then have one.. that is, if they upgrade to Portfolio and chose the payment plan option. Win. Win.

Since Logos specializes in making the impossible a reality, it sounds like a great way to accomplish it!

That is a fantastic idea, JJ! You should seriously pitch it directly to Logos marketing. Email Dan Pritchett, dan (at) logos (dot) com.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168877#Comment_168877

In a perfect world all the software would work on all the machines, and be FREE !

This is Logos approach too... .they just haven't gotten around to a Linux port yet.... and the software is free... we just have to pay for the content [:'(]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168937#Comment_168937

Now there's an idea! Hallelujah for the "festal muchness" of our Creator, as my arts-pastor/author friend David Taylor puts it.

I really like Pastor Taylor's take on this. (I'd add, my Creator is not really a show-off, He just likes to express Himself.)

A fourth option would be get the print version if/when available; not ideal but better than doing without completely.

Alas, I did own the hardback NT set TWICE, and sold it TWICE. I never could find the OT set in hardback. Logos is quickly filling the gaps with new language materials that ease the pain of envy. [:$]

That is a fantastic idea, JJ! You should seriously pitch it directly to Logos marketing. Email Dan Pritchett,

Especially if the current Portfolio holders get a free EEC [:D] !

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168954#Comment_168954

Especially if the current Portfolio holders get a free EEC !

I'm hanging out for the Logos Lectern, not so much for the Lectern itself , but the iPad come with it.... you are including the iPad aren't you Logos [:P] If not Portfolio then, EEC should be a no brainier in the Lectern collection, along with Hermeneia, ICC, and Anchor Yale Bible and Reference Series. Lectern Gold comes with a lifetime subscription to all included commentary sets so that you get any additional volumes added to , or revised volumes released for free as they are released.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168958#Comment_168958

Especially if the current Portfolio holders get a free EEC !

I'm hanging out for the Logos Lectern, not so much for the Lectern itself , but the iPad come with it.... you are including the iPad aren't you Logos If not Portfolio then, EEC should be a no brainier in the Lectern collection, along with Hermeneia, ICC, and Anchor Yale Bible and Reference Series. Lectern Gold comes with a lifetime subscription to all included commentary sets so that you get any additional volumes added to , or revised volumes released for free as they are released.

My response fits better under the thread "Logos pricing" but here goes anyway;

Have you considered the fact you only have one first-born child to trade for a "Lectern Gold" license and the necessary funding would cost almost TWO first-borns to satisfy all the publishers' licensing fees?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168962#Comment_168962

Have you considered the fact you only have one first-born child to trade for a "Lectern Gold" license and the necessary funding would cost almost TWO first-borns to satisfy all the publishers' licensing fees?

Yeah, but part of the licensing fee comes from the free marketing Logos gets every time he preaches from that lectern. It will of course have a Logos logo on the front of it. And he'll be required to toss out little references like "I looked this up in Logos..." every so often. [:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168962#Comment_168962

Especially if the current Portfolio holders get a free EEC !

I'm hanging out for the Logos Lectern, not so much for the Lectern itself , but the iPad come with it.... you are including the iPad aren't you Logos If not Portfolio then, EEC should be a no brainier in the Lectern collection, along with Hermeneia, ICC, and Anchor Yale Bible and Reference Series. Lectern Gold comes with a lifetime subscription to all included commentary sets so that you get any additional volumes added to , or revised volumes released for free as they are released.

My response fits better under the thread "Logos pricing" but here goes anyway;

Have you considered the fact you only have one first-born child to trade for a "Lectern Gold" license and the necessary funding would cost almost TWO first-borns to satisfy all the publishers' licensing fees?

I haven't even got the first 'first-born' yet... . now if I did have TWO first-borns (twins maybe,) I still wouldn't trade them for Logos unobtanium ... but to get this thread back on track ( Thomas hijacking techniques seem to be rubbing off) I'm happy to settle for the current EEC offer.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168883#Comment_168883

I love a number of the NICOT/NICNT commentaries, but will not buy them on Logos. Why do we have to buy a set of commentaries (ranging from $700-2000) to get the four-five commentaries that we are interested in? I would ask Logos to take a serious look at changing this part of their marketing philosophy. I think you would sell a lot more commentaries and probably pick up a number of new users.

Many times, it's not in Logos' hands. Oftimes one of the compromises that have to be made in order to get the rights to publish is an all or nothing deal. Logos would rather go with the all than the nothing. Sometimes it works out that the sets are later broken up. Although we don't always see it. I for one am hungry for Milgrom's triple set on Leviticus to be available separate from the rest of the Anchor yale Bible.

( Thomas hijacking techniques seem to be rubbing off)

Man! I can't even blame Philip for this one.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/168968#Comment_168968

I love a number of the NICOT/NICNT commentaries, but will not buy them on Logos. Why do we have to buy a set of commentaries (ranging from $700-2000) to get the four-five commentaries that we are interested in? I would ask Logos to take a serious look at changing this part of their marketing philosophy. I think you would sell a lot more commentaries and probably pick up a number of new users.
Many times, it's not in Logos' hands. Oftimes one of the compromises that have to be made in order to get the rights to publish is an all or nothing deal.

I believe Logos explained somewhere that the reason publishers put these restrictions on their bundles is to be able to move the less popular volumes in the series. If they allowed the set to be split up, people would buy only the 4-5 most popular ones and the least popular would languish in warehouses somewhere. The authors of these latter, who put forth as much time and effort as the authors of the best-selling volumes would not be compensated as much in royalties. This made a bit more sense in the print era, but perhaps publishers need to rethink things now in the digital era. There's still a lot of jostling going on in digital publishing as this stuff gets worked out, and probably still will be for several years before the dust settles.