A new type of pre-pub - it isn't in print yet!
I know Logos has had a couple of digital-only releases, but this is different. Apparently (from the copy) it will be printed and be available digitally. You sign up to get the volumes as they are completed. Looks like 4 are to be released in 2011.
So for $700 and a long wait you can get a new set of so-far not published and unreviewed volumes. Very interesting.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark A. Smith said:
I know Logos has had a couple of digital-only releases, but this is different. Apparently (from the copy) it will be printed and be available digitally. You sign up to get the volumes as they are completed. Looks like 4 are to be released in 2011.
So for $700 and a long wait you can get a new set of so-far not published and unreviewed volumes. Very interesting.
Yes it is an interesting situation.... a big upfront commitment for something unseen.
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I think I'll have to pass. I am not planning out to 2019 and beyond at this point. It will be interesting to see what will happen with this.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Here is more information. Seems the initial work will be digital-only and Logos is the publisher.
http://www.evangelicalexegeticalcommentary.com/about/
Interesting. If I were a younger guy I would probably bite.
Note the blurb about a print edition:
"The digital edition will be unabridged, but an abridged print edition will also be published for those who want it."
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark A. Smith said:
I know Logos has had a couple of digital-only releases, but this is different. Apparently (from the copy) it will be printed and be available digitally. You sign up to get the volumes as they are completed. Looks like 4 are to be released in 2011.
So for $700 and a long wait you can get a new set of so-far not published and unreviewed volumes. Very interesting.
I did preorder, but mostly to lock in the price. The authors look interesting enough to warrant the price, I think. I'll keep looking into this and decide whether or not to cancel my pre-order later.
The anticipated release dates can be found on this page:http://www.evangelicalexegeticalcommentary.com/volumes/
Looks like the first volume will be out in April of 2011.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Mark A. Smith said:
I am not planning out to 2019 and beyond at this point.
They ought to rename it "The Lord Willing" Commentary James 4:13-17
But I think Logos already knows many of us place Pre-Pubs orders with a "Lord willing" view to completion.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:Mark A. Smith said:
I am not planning out to 2019 and beyond at this point.
They ought to rename it "The Lord Willing" Commentary James 4:13-17
But I think Logos already knows many of us place Pre-Pubs orders with a "Lord willing" view to completion.
[:D]
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Interesting. I wonder what happens if you pre-order this and then, after receiving the first volume or two change your mind and wish not to get the rest. Presumably it would be too late to cancel your prepub order at that point. I suppose you'd have to return those ones since otherwise you're locked into the purchase contract for the rest of them.
Another point to ponder: will our credit cards be charged the full $699.95 when volume 1 ships or only after all volumes have shipped, or will they be charged a percentage when each volume ships?
It's already listed as "Under Development" so it must have enough orders already right off the starting block, or else Logos has committed to share the risk with the publisher if it doesn't sell enough copies.
It is risky dishing out such money for an unreviewed commentary set, but as Richard pointed out, many of the authors are known from their other work, some of which I already have in Logos.
Incidentally, this isn't the first time a commentary has been published in digital form without being preceded by a print edition. The five-volume tome, An Exposition on Prayer in the Bible, by James Rosscup, was never published in print. It was released as a Logos edition only. There might have been other instances, as Mark alluded to. But this EEC does seem like a new concept. Not unlike subscribing to series in print, which has been around for a while. This is now just a final admission that we are really in the digital age.
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Rosie,
The full $699.95 (or more…if you wait too long to pre-order… [:D] ) will be charged when the first volume is ready, and then the remaining volumes will download for free as they are completed.
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Rosie Perera said:
This is now just a final admission that we are really in the digital age.
Apparently that is what the print publisher they approached concluded:
"Furthermore, the publisher could no longer be sure they could
successfully market such a massive commentary series. For many pastors
and scholars, spending thousands of dollars on a set of print
commentaries is a thing of the past."Rosie Perera said:Not unlike subscribing to series in print, which has been around for a while.
Yes, but those are charged a volume at a time, not the whole set in advance.
One is trusting that the series will not run into financial trouble after you pay your $700, and that it will not be inordinately delayed.
However, if it is completed by 2019 that $700 could look like gas and coffee money by then.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Rosie Perera said:
It's already listed as "Under Development" so it must have enough orders already right off the starting block, or else Logos has committed to share the risk with the publisher if it doesn't sell enough copies.
Logos is the publisher..... and from their tweet its already been five years in the making:
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Andrew McKenzie said:
Logos is the publisher..... and from their tweet its already been five years in the making:
The whole story is in the extra link above: http://www.evangelicalexegeticalcommentary.com/about/
Logos didn't get involved until sometime last year. Seems to be an ambitious undertaking for them, although I suspect their role is mostly funding.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Don't think I afford the whole set now. I am still making payments on the NICOT/NICNT set. But I sure would like to buy some of the volumes as they come out - (especially the John Oswalt volume on Kings.) I wonder if that will be possible?
Maybe after I finish paying for the NICOT/NICNT set I will take a good look at this.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Michael Childs said:
I wonder if that will be possible?
The pre-pub page is pretty clear about the fact that Logos does not intend to release these volumes individually.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Logos is asking a lot faith from its customers and providing little when it comes to guarantees.
What if individual books (or even the whole series) are cancelled, delayed, or reassigned? Do we get a refund if the product is substandard or not as promised?
What if after the first volume is published, I realize that the great idea was poorly executed and that the series does not bring anything new to the discussion (besides updated bibliographies)?
The reason why I bought series like NICOT/NICNT, AYBC, BECNT, and other series was because they were known quantities and proven series. While I believe that the authors of the EEC are very capable (as I personally know some of them or have books by most of them), committing $700 of my hard earned money to the ECC requires a leap of faith that only the Lord gets from me.
The matter might have been different if Logos had provided one or two volumes that are representative of the series (excerpts or entire volumes like what happened with the CBC series). Additionally, the idea of being charged the full $700 after the first volume with no guarantee that I would get my money worth produces a "critical failure/deal breaker message" for me (from a financial stewardship perspective). It would be something else if I had the option of opting out if the product turned out to be less than all it was cracked up to be (This would not be the first time that a “promising” series with great scholars attached to it ends up being a disappointment).
For me to get on board or recommend the upcoming series to anyone (it is still vaporware for now), three conditions need to be met:
The structure, goal, layout, depth, and so on of the series needs to be given with much more details in additional to showing exactly how it will be better than what I already have in my library (e.g. NICOT/NICNT, BECNT).
I need to get my hands on representative samples or entire volumes and read informed reviews of early volumes.
I need to know that my investment is guaranteed against cancellations, delays, or reassignments? This means that I will only be charged for volumes when they are published and that Logos’ failure to honor any part of the contract (cancellations, delays, or reassignments…) gives me the right to opt out of the program without being charged for unpublished volumes.
I am excited about the idea of primarily digital biblical resources and this series looks like a very good idea, however, I find the terms to be unacceptable and rather one sided (besides whatever commitment Logos might have made to the potential authors). The idea of loaning almost $700 interest free to Logos for x number of years and part of it for almost a decade just does not compute.
I hope Logos is listening because the ECC appears to be promising
Alain
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I think I will pass on this as well. The stipulations and the length of time to publish these volumes is not practical. I will be retired from ministry before I would ever get the oppotunity to use the entire set. Some of the authors I would consider getting the separate volumes for but it is way to much money for me to put up front with nothing to show for it.
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does the refund guarantee within the first month apply if I get the first volume and don't think it's worth the money?
Could we PLEASE have some sample pages from at least one of the volumes to help us make up our minds? I shall order it, to lock in at the price, but may well decide to cancel my order if not convinced that it's a good and safe investment. I've decided not to order several commentaries because they are more technical than I need as a non-academic missionary.[^o)]
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If someone gets frustrated because of a pre-pub's release date gets pushed pack (time after time) then what if that pre-pub is already paid for, like when we get the first volume of the set. It looks like it will be good, but I'll have to pass as well.
love the try,
tim
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I pre-ordered but after reading this thread I going to re-think my decision. Thanks for all the valuable comments. And without a sample page(s) to actually see, I won't be ordering it at all. I agree with Nicky!
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As I continue to contemplate this one, I think it provides the necessary exception to the rule that Prepubs are not on the payment program. I would gladly start a payment program for them, but alas my pockets have bottoms; and coming up with $700 for a sight unseen project hurts worse than taking the next two years to pay it off in monthly installments.
As much as I would like to be a part of this one, I regretfully won't be able to.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
I thought I would do some analysis to try and understand when different titles are actually scheduled to be released. (I know it is on the EEC site but I wanted to break it down into years of release.
I include it below - hope it is useful to someone.
Schedule of releases where the date is known
# of volumes per year (where known)
Volumes where ship date is TBA (not included in graph above)
Graham
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It would be good to see sample pages of some of the early commentaries. The press release talks about being released from the constraints of print. It would be helpful if significant portions of the Psalms and Epistles of John commentaries scheduled for 2011 be released for preview. It would be interesting not just to see the introduction sections, but the exegetical portion of the commentary. A suggestion is to give a sample of 4-5 chapters in the Psalms with varying styles and chapter one of 1 John.
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This set is a payment plan in reverse: We pay up front and hope to get the volumes over the next decade! [^o)]
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Wayne said:
It would be good to see sample pages of some of the early commentaries. The press release talks about being released from the constraints of print. It would be helpful if significant portions of the Psalms and Epistles of John commentaries scheduled for 2011 be released for preview. It would be interesting not just to see the introduction sections, but the exegetical portion of the commentary. A suggestion is to give a sample of 4-5 chapters in the Psalms with varying styles and chapter one of 1 John.
Wayne,
That would go a long way to answering questions and reservations, and would doubtless increase the pre-purchase.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
I too pre-ordered after reading the promotional materials... I almost feel silly having pre-ordered now, after having read this thread. I guess I hadn't really thought through all the things that could making paying up front such a poor idea. Thanks for the thoughtful comments.
Alain does make a good point; in some ways it feels like we would be lending Logos the money to aid in funding the creation of the series. I don't think there is anything wrong with that in principle, but as has been pointed out, if we are going to co-invest than we need to know a little more about the product and planned content. The kind of information Wayne is suggesting would be helpful.
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I am sorry I just can't seeing paying that much money up front for a set that won't be out by AT LEAST 2019. Quite a few volumes are TBA, and of course things slip. When will it all be out - 2021? 2025?
What will the set cost later, when done in 202x - $1500? If it's 2022, put the money somewhere at 6.5% (stocks and bonds are way beyond that over a 10+ year cycle), and then you have the luxury of paying with future money and seeing ifs the collection is good.
That money won't do anything of value for me for a very long time. It just sounds like early purchasers are funding the project .
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Alain Maashe said:
Logos is asking a lot faith from its customers and providing little when it comes to guarantees.
You mean they are stating little when it comes to guarantees. Logos has always been excellent in the customer service department, especially in handling customer complaints, requests for refunds, etc.
But there are significant questions that do remain unanswered (which you also raise), and Logos is asking us to take a substantial risk in buying this set. I understand Logos is also taking a risk in publishing it, and moving ahead before having the pre-pub financial requirements fully met. Yet, as a publisher, that's the nature of the business.
Instead of withdrawing my pre-pub purchase, I'm going to keep it there (at least for now), and ask Logos to provide some up-front risk alleviation. First, while $700 is a bargain for a commentary of this size and (probably quality), early adopters may need a bit more incentive to manage this investment. How about a "6 months same as cash" plan for those who jump in before the pre-pub goes 'gold?'
Second, offer a full refund for those who are disappointed after the first 3 or 4 volumes are released (wouldn't want to judge the whole series based on one volume).
Third, offer an option for paying for these volumes as they are released (make it a separate pre-pub for the same works). I would assume that this would bump the amount significantly, as the series likely needs an inflow of cash now, not after the work is done. Then, those who would want to bow out, could do so perhaps more easily (keeping what they've purchased so far). I would imagine it would look something like this But something structured along these lines could help folks manage the risk, and balance it with financial incentives. Something like $50/volume for the 1st 22 volumes (with the remaining volumes coming free/included), paying $25/volume for all volumes planned to be released in the coming year (after the first is released), with the understanding that some delays are likely from time to time), to be paid on the first of the year.
Fourth, if Logos is looking for investors in the project, they may simply want to ask. There may be some who believe enough in the project to fork out some capital for it, provided there would be some return on the investment as well. This seems like another reasonable way to move this project forward, should the current pre-pub plan not meet expectations.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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I was involved in Christian publishing for over 20 years, going back to 1971. I have seen many commentary dates pushed back considerably over the years.
All kinds of things can and will happen unexpectedly before this 44 volume set is completed.
I don't doubt Logos' intentions of doing what it says.
People must realize that there are many factors beyond their control in publishing a set like this.
I think established Logos users would like to hear from Bob on this. I'm sure that he has thought this through thoroughly and can do much to address our concerns.
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Edwin Bowden said:
I'm sure that he has thought this through thoroughly and can do much to address our concerns.
Edwin,
I believe your right. They must have anticipated these very discussions. And they likely have a prepared response...
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[y] I trust Logos completely, and I believe 100% they would take care of any problems that may arise along the way.Richard DeRuiter said:You mean they are stating little when it comes to guarantees. Logos has always been excellent in the customer service department, especially in handling customer complaints, requests for refunds, etc.
Thank you Edwin for voicing your assurance. I agree and honestly I expect we won't have to wait long for a response to the questions raised.Edwin Bowden said:I think established Logos users would like to hear from Bob on this. I'm sure that he has thought this through thoroughly and can do much to address our concerns.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Thomas Black said:Richard DeRuiter said:
You mean they are stating little when it comes to guarantees. Logos has always been excellent in the customer service department, especially in handling customer complaints, requests for refunds, etc.
I trust Logos completely, and I believe 100% they would take care of any problems that may arise along the way.
Thank you Edwin for voicing your assurance. I agree and honestly I expect we won't have to wait long for a response to the questions raised.Edwin Bowden said:I think established Logos users would like to hear from Bob on this. I'm sure that he has thought this through thoroughly and can do much to address our concerns.
While I think any customer who has any significant experience with Logos would agree (as I certainly do).. it's surprising that Logos with their experience with their customers would not have anticipated at least some of this and sought to address it in their announcements. Especially if they have "prepared responses".
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