Search without accents

I'm trying to do a search for all the different forms of particular greek root in a single book. However the various forms are accented differently. For example, if I were searching for the various forms of the word often translated with a form of the word "righteous" in English, a search for *δικ* is not sufficient because it doesn't find forms where the iota is accented (e.g. δίκαιος). Is there a way to search a greek (morphology) text ignoring the accents?

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Rich DeRuiter

I'm trying to do a search for all the different forms of particular greek root in a single book. However the various forms are accented differently. For example, if I were searching for the various forms of the word often translated with a form of the word "righteous" in English, a search for *δικ* is not sufficient because it doesn't find forms where the iota is accented (e.g. δίκαιος). Is there a way to search a greek (morphology) text ignoring the accents?

This is tricky and something I've wanted Logos to offer for a long time (perhaps in the Bible Word Study module).

One thing to check is whether or not you have "Match All Word Forms" checked in your search options (click on the magnifying glass icon in the upper left of the search tab to change).

Previous discussions can be found here:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/16050/121896.aspx

and here:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/5770/45011.aspx

In fact, the discussion immediately above discusses that particular stem search (among others).

Logos, can we please, please have stem searching?

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/170059#Comment_170059

I agree this lack needs to be addressed by Logos, but in the meantime, if you know enough Greek to know what possible accented variations there might be, you could do a boolean search using OR for all of the possibilities, for example: *δικ*OR *δίκ*

However, there's a way that is much easier, faster (wildcards slow Logos down), more thorough (you won't miss any variations), and more accurate (you won't pick up words that aren't actually based on the same root; for example δίκτυα matches *δίκ* but its lemma is δίκτυον not δίκαιος):

Do a lemma search, which will find all forms of a particular root/lemma. You can do that either from Bible search with this syntax:

<Lemma = lbs/el/δίκαιος>

Or from Morph Search with this syntax:

lemma:δίκαιος

And if you're not sure what the lemma is to search for, right-click on any form of the word (e.g., in the Greek Bible or an English Bible that has reverse interlinear capabilities), select the Lemma tab on the right of the menu that pops up, and then select "Search this resource" on the left side.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/170095#Comment_170095

However, there's a way that is much easier, faster (wildcards slow Logos down), more thorough (you won't miss any variations), and more accurate (you won't pick up words that aren't actually based on the same root; for example δίκτυα matches *δίκ* but its lemma is δίκτυον not δίκαιος):

Do a lemma search, which will find all forms of a particular root/lemma. You can do that either from Bible search with this syntax:

<Lemma = lbs/el/δίκαιος>

Or from Morph Search with this syntax:

lemma:δίκαιος

Actually, a better way yet would be this (as a morph search) lemma:*δικ* (suggested by Phil Gons)

The search you suggest misses other forms with the same stem (δικαιοσύνη, καταδικάζω, δικαιόω, etc.). It's very helpful to see these other word forms as well (sometimes called "cognates"), especially as they occur in the current context. But a full understanding of Paul's use of any one of these words (e.g.), requires a study of his uses of all of them (IMHO).

But I do agree that the workaround does give some false positives as well.

For Logos to begin doing stem searching would require building a new database for that purpose. And although a resource like TDNT often gives a lot of help about what some of those other cognates might be, it's not complete in that regard.

EDIT: BTW, this strategy does ignore the accent mark that the Andy was trying to work around.

John Brumett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/170095#Comment_170095

There is a Lexicon that already accomplishes this (A New Testament Greek Morpheme Lexicon by J. Harold Greenlee). This shows all the appropriate root forms and Greek words with those forms including prefixes, root words, suffixes, and terminations. It list every Greek Word in the New Testament. I wish this book was in Libronix. The publisher is Zondervan and the publishing date is 1983. Here are 2 sections of the book that list your word.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/170108#Comment_170108

There is a Lexicon that already accomplishes this (A New Testament Greek Morpheme Lexicon by J. Harold Greenlee). . .

Wow! That could be the foundation for Logos' stem index (assuming they could get the rights to use it from the big "Z").

John Brumett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/170109#Comment_170109

Can you put in a suggestion to the powers that be. The homework is already done by Dr. J. Harold Greenlee. He served in the past as an International Translation Consultant for the Wycliffe Bible Translators. This work was based on BDAG. Part 1 of the book gives prefixes, root words, suffixes and terminations for every word in BDAG. Part 2 lists every word that contains each of the morphemes idenfified in part 1, so that a morpheme can be observed in all the words that use it at a single glance. This work contains all suffex endings classified together with all Greek words that contain that suffex. This would be Greek if this information is integrated into the search engine and the analysis view.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/170118#Comment_170118

Can you put in a suggestion to the powers that be. The homework is already done by Dr. J. Harold Greenlee. He served in the past as an International Translation Consultant for the Wycliffe Bible Translators. This work was based on BDAG. Part 1 of the book gives prefixes, root words, suffixes and terminations for every word in BDAG. Part 2 lists every word that contains each of the morphemes idenfified in part 1, so that a morpheme can be observed in all the words that use it at a single glance. This work contains all suffex endings classified together with all Greek words that contain that suffex. This would be Greek if this information is integrated into the search engine and the analysis view.

Wow, this looks like an awesome resource! I will email a suggestion in to suggest (at) logos (dot) com and reference this thread. A request for stem/cognate searching is already on UserVoice with 47 votes. I might even free up one of my votes from some other feature and move it to this, since it sounds so important. We should continue talking it up on the forums and get some more excitement stirred up about it here. That's the best way to get Logos's ear on it.

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/170118#Comment_170118

This need seems to be met by the Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament. The intro reads, "This present edition of The Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the New Testament includes glosses of all Greek words in all of the books of the New Testament, sorted by Louw-Nida domain information. It also includes a full listing of every form of every word in the UBS/NA Greek New Testament, fully parsed and declined, with links back to primary entries."

A sample entry is pictured below.

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/170132#Comment_170132

BTW, my post is not meant to be an official response about the other resource being discussed. I am new to using Lexham in my own ministry so am just learning it myself. [Y]

John Brumett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/170133#Comment_170133

Joe: The Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament give all the various forms of one Greek word and how it it used in the N.T. whereas A New Testament Greek Morpheme Lexicon groups together all Greek Words that uses a word root, suffixes, prefix, ect.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/170131#Comment_170131

I will email a suggestion in to suggest (at) logos (dot) com and reference this thread.

Done also and I sacrificed a vote on the flashcards in Logos (since it has over 360 votes) to add my vote to the stem/cognate search.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/170152#Comment_170152

I will email a suggestion in to suggest (at) logos (dot) com and reference this thread.

Done also and I sacrificed a vote on the flashcards in Logos (since it has over 360 votes) to add my vote to the stem/cognate search.

I've sacrificed a vote on something that would be cool but that I didn't think was as important as stem/cognate search (namely, visual bookshelf).

Hey, everyone else: Check your votes on the features that have already been marked Started and will be in 4.1 which should be shipping soon. No need to keep your votes tied up there anymore.

Printing Bible Text w/ Highlighting

Full Feature Print Functions

Smart Tags

Sentence Diagramming

This next major release is going to be loaded with new goodies! If you haven't been in for the ride already on the beta, you've got a pleasant surprise coming in a few short weeks.

Andy Anglea

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/170157#Comment_170157

Thanks for all your help! Unfortunately, I'm getting different results with my searches. It may have to do with the fact that I'm using the Mac version (I didn't put this in the mac forum, as I thought it was a general enough question) But the search lemma:*δικ* is still accent sensitive. The best results I've gotten have been from using lemma:*δικ*, lemma:*δίκ* But that format won't always work for other roots as it would yield too many false positives. So I'll go add my vote to the cognate function and/or getting the Greenlee resource added

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/170238#Comment_170238

Thanks for all your help! Unfortunately, I'm getting different results with my searches. It may have to do with the fact that I'm using the Mac version (I didn't put this in the mac forum, as I thought it was a general enough question) But the search lemma:*δικ* is still accent sensitive.

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that lemma: would make a search not be accent sensitive when combined with wildcards. That prefix is meant to be used with an actual lemma. I don't know how it behaves with wildcards, but I don't imagine it would work the way you expected it to. And I was wrong about Morph search doing what you want. Only Bible search will in this case, because Morph search on a lemma will only find that lemma, not various forms of it. What a dilemma! [;)]

I believe this is partially what you want, right? Notice it finds all forms of δίκαιος whether they've got the accent or not.

But it won't find prefixed forms, because it's a lemma search, not a stem/cognate search (the latter Logos doesn't do...yet).

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/170274#Comment_170274

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that lemma: would make a search not be accent sensitive when combined with wildcards.

And yet, my search returned hits with that syllable both accented and unaccented.

The issue seems to be that the Mac version behaves differently than the PC version. That would be something to bring to the Mac Dev's.

Also, you'll note that Andy wanted to search for "all the different forms of a particular Greek root." Your suggestions have to do with searching for one form of a particular Greek root, i.e., a particular lemma.

Andy is right that the method I posted, first suggested a long time ago by Phil Gons, is not a true root (or 'stem') search. It will generate false positives with other stems. It's strange that the Mac version would be inflection specific. It shouldn't do that.

But your conclusion is right, Logos doesn't really do what we're asking it to do. It should (IMHO).