Security and Privacy Concern about Logos4 Phonning Home
Dear Logos,
I am becomming concerned about how much and how often Logos4 "Phones Home", as a normal part of its operation.
Examples include:
1) Checking for updates
2) Syncing Page-Marks after every move, scroll, search, or operation
3) Syncing of Notes, Highlights, Passage Lists etc ...
4) Homepage News etc
5) Download error reporting as documented in http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_4.0b_SR-2
My wish is for Logos4 to NEVER attempt any Internet access at any time, if I turn "Use Internet" to off!!!
I accept than all above features wont then work, buts thats OK by me. I will elect to enable Internet from time-to-time, but I want it to be my choice please.
I am almost at the point I am considering adding a firewall rule so I can place a 100% block on the program(s) used by Logos4. I can then enable/disable the rule as required.
I have seen others make comments with some of these views.
Bottom line: Please make "Use Internet" = NO do as it says. Thats all I need to be happy in this regard.
Comments
- Let Logos have Internet access
- Not allow it to auto-update - it lets me know when they are available but I choose when it updates
- I do not use Notes or Prayer lists or allow Logos to send report of how I use it. I only highlight things that would never embarrass me if other people knew what I had highlighed
It might be interesting to note under the product tab on this web site the top 100 things of L4. Especially how central the role Logos computers play in backing up your licenses and files from a newspaper metaphor interface. I suspect that ultimately that the evolution of this product will be very much a total push technology where we would buy a subscription to a centralized "library" or sets of "libraries" (such as classical) that we can use from our own computer(s). We will really own nothing other than opportunities to access large databases of information. From this perspective there will be nothing private about using this software in that it will be (maybe) based on every changing interfaces and libraries on Logos computers...if you want to use it you will dial home for it so to speak.
My wish is for Logos4 to NEVER attempt any Internet access at any time, if I turn "Use Internet" to off!!!
Simple, on "Program Settings" turn off "Automatically Download Updates" AND "Use Internet" problem solved. Hope this helps.
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
Ted,
Thanks for the feedback. YES, I already run with Automatic=OFF, and generally also Internet=OFF, but Logos4 does not respect that flag at all times.
If one runs the command "Update Now", "Sync Now", clicks the Homepage, and a few other options, the program still phones home. Those are not too much concern for me, as they are manual choices. However, its the "creeping" that is the concern.
For example, the download error reporting in http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_4.0b_SR-2 phones home on an error. Again, this of itself, is not a big problem. If Logos4 is failing on a download, its because I am wanting to update something or get a new resource I have purchased. In that case, of course I want the resource updated, and any error fixed. And of course Logos knows who I am, and want I just purchased, and what I am attempting to download.
My concern is the "creep" and complete loss of control of when, how much, and what about is in that comms transfer.
Others have spoken of their concerns about their study notes, prayer lists, or specific search needs getting uploaded to Logos, when that content may be extremly private, and with the ability to cause harm to a third party.
Invented Story Follows:
Imagine I add "Bob Smith" to my prayer list, then makes some notes about going with one or two others, to correct a brother, and then I search for verses about correction and something about sexual sins?
How much do I owe it to Bob Smith (invented name) to keep his story private in the extreme?
Repeat: Invented story above.
Core interface technology of L4 seems to be an increasing integration of Logos based computers interacting with private computers. The only thing that guarantees privacy is trust toward the ethical behavior of Logos employees and their technology. The price for increased bells, whistles, and pretty technology maybe a theoretical problem called privacy. If one wants to understand corporate benevolence try to sell your license.
The only thing that guarantees privacy is trust toward the ethical behavior of Logos employees and their technology.
Thanks for your comments.
If I could elect to NOT sync my personal content to Logos, then I would not need to consider if I trust them or not. Also, for the invented example I gave above, its something to not share with someone not matter how much I trust them. If its not their story, I can't tell them, no matter what.
"I'm going to tell you a secret, but please dont tell anyone OK. I'm telling you because I trust you"
Sadly, that model fails at some point. We are called to a higher standard sometimes. Don't tell anyone, no matter what!
P.S. Logos is in fact a great model of a company that one can trust, and YES, you can sell and transfer your Logos license. Really: They are a great company. But this is NOT what my original post is about.
Others have spoken of their concerns about their study notes, prayer lists, or specific search needs getting uploaded to Logos, when that content may be extremly private, and with the ability to cause harm to a third party.
I am one of those Jim, who have raised this and value my private data.
I wouldn't put any plain text into any PC/ElectronicGizmo "with the ability to cause harm to a third party" even if it had no internet connection
Should you decide to, then I can only suggest you adopt a personal cyper, as once coded ( only you know about your code) you could put "Spoke to Bob Smith about his "Lifestyle Choices", if anyone gained access they would be clueless as to what exactly you mean.. and if thats not enough could be recorded as some other innocuous thing: "Ice Cream Cravings","Fishing Tackle","Train Set","Painting" or whatever , but likewise only you know the REAL decode key.
If its that private, I personally would not be recording it except in a private paper journal, and even there if its really sensitive it would be coded..
However, having had a harddrive die on me, the fact I am was able to get back up-to-date data immediately when reinstalling was a great benefit, it is also very helpful especially when you travel.
The sad reality is the danger is more likely to come from your local data, someone you know who also knows Bob Smith, accessing your PC when you walk away leaving it unprotected (to get your coffee, restroom, wc, etc), rather than the Logos (server) end
Whilst I also agree NO should mean NO, have come round to seeing the benefits of the cloud.. especially when mobile..
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
YES, I already run with Automatic=OFF, and generally also Internet=OFF, but Logos4 does not respect that flag at all times.
If one runs the command "Update Now", "Sync Now", clicks the Homepage, and a few other options, the program still phones home. Those are not too much
Jim,
I have software on my PC that can intercept any internet access from Logos. I have never noticed any internet access when Use Internet is set to OFF. If you believe you can reproduce this behaviour, let me know the steps, and I'll check it for you. (Note that you have to restart Logos when changing that setting for it to take effect.)
Mark
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
If you believe you can reproduce this behaviour, let me know the steps, and I'll check it for you.
Mark,
With "Internet=OFF", if you do any of the following:
1) Run the command "Update Now"
2) Command "Sync Now"
3) Go to the Home Page (to change your prefered Bible)
At one level, its not too unexpected that (1) or (2) might still override the OFF setting, my prefered result would be a silent "do nothing / NOP" or a small dialog or status about command not processed due to no internet access. Just as the auto-syncing puts a small yellow alert symbol in the top right if there really is no internet at all.
My concern is NOT with the specific (1), (2) and (3) above, but rather that the Logos4 application does NOT respect the OFF switch.
I have software on my PC that can intercept any internet access from Logos. I have never noticed any internet access when Use Internet is set to OFF.
Mark,
Thanks for mentioning that you verified that the Logos Internet traffic can be entirely stopped. I use VoIP with GoToMeeting and my upload Internet connection speed just meets their recommended minimum of 384 kbps. Since I don't have any headroom, I'm concerned about stopping any unnecessary internet traffic. Before using VoIP, I turn the internet off in Logos and and turn off auto updates and notifications in Windows XP and Outlook.
What is the software you use to intercept (can it also monitor?) Internet access? I have many applications installed and like to see if they access the internet.
Thanks in advance,
Scott
JIm it really doesn't matter if we perceive Logos to be a great company or not even with a good reputation. What matters, I would argue, is the product on each of our hard drives and what it does now and what it is likely to do in the future. To note that a consumer has privacy issues with software that has core push technology and increasing integration of such technology is to argue how much privacy the end user has....which addresses directly the original post imo. Its sort of like asking your mom for the keys to the family car then complaining that she always know where were going to.
Simple, on "Program Settings" turn off "Automatically Download Updates" AND "Use Internet" problem solved.
Call me confused by this thread! When i have done the above "ADU" & "UI", it stops all internet traffic. I even get the option to select work offline when i start up . I am surprised that some are suggesting this is not the case. Or perhaps i am not understanding the issue as i ought to. So the "work offline" does not work but it seems to work for me.
Ted
Edit: Posted before i saw Mike Aubrey's comment above.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
I am almost at the point I am considering adding a firewall rule so I can place a 100% block on the program(s) used by Logos4. I can then enable/disable the rule as required.
This seems like a reasonable solution. If I had privacy concerns in my use of any program, I would pursue this route (especially in the case of missionaries in closed countries). Even if Logos said that the Use Internet switch shut of all network access, it's a prudent decision to have a second layer of security in the firewall. Plus it would give you more fine-grained control than I suspect Logos would considered implementing themselves (for simplicity's sake).
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
I agree with the privacy issue that seems to be increasing with each new software update (not talking about Logos). But the bigger issue for me has been the Windows7 sleep mode. My PC began refusing to go to sleep, until I traced it to programs that want to maintain an internet connect (all hoping to be quite helpful). So I now look for any options to 'work offline', and set my firewall by program to disallow operating as a server. I've done the same with Logos4 and haven't had any problems with it trying to get around 'me'.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
Not to bring a 'dead horse' back to life, but after all the discussion back in April/May concerning privacy concerns, I'd concluded that the setting 'Use Internet' = NO and 'Automatically Download Updates' = NO and 'Send Feedback' = NONE would mean no internet traffic back to Logos (absent a manual update). But recently I've noticed L4 happpily autoomatically connecting to Logos with these settings. I know Bob's famous quote 'If you care enough that you want to know which algorithms, etc. then you're probably wiser to just disconnect your computer from the Internet physically. ' is pretty much the bottom line for Logos & Co. But I'd been comfortable with these settings until now. Luckily I can also set my virus protector to block Logos (which I've done), but it just seems like courtesy would dictate otherwise. I have 4.0d SR2. Do the settings actually work?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
Do the settings actually work?
They should do, unless you hold CTRL when you load Logos (in which case you're able to override them).
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
So far my solution is to simply remove my data from Logos, and put it into a piece of software that allows me both to encrypt the data I sync onto a cloud server and to specifically choose which data to sync. That cripples the functionality of Logos, so I'm not getting all the value I can from my roughly $5k or more investment, but, well, Logos has decided that they either can't code this functionality, or can't support it.
I, personally, would gladly rebuy all the resources I have in another piece of software if I could actually use the software as designed and still keep my privacy.I understand a lot of folk here are willing to sell their privacy for money, counting privacy to be of little value, but you should hear the gasps when I start showing the high school kids in my networking class what someone can figure out about you with what you put online every day.
For anyone who's said, on this board, that privacy just isn't important, I hear they have a perfect new piece of software that will tweet your location from the GPS embedded on your phone every minute or so. How convenient would that be? Your spouse and kids can just follow your tweets to figure out where you are at any given time! If you are ever injured, or attacked, think about how fast someone could find out where you are, and come to your aid! What a wonderful idea, right?
As Logos is the only game in town resource wise, I just have to live with crippled software because I value my privacy. But don't let me stand in the way of "progress."
Russ
Do the settings actually work?
This is how I have L4 setup, and the only time I have noticed that it called home was when I told it to check for updates.
FYI... With the exception of notes, I too have stopped storing my data in L4. If you ask me, It is sad that we must use a crippled L4 because Logos does not value our privacy.
I guess everyone's mileage varies, but, for me, the disabling of Logos's Internet features doesn't 'cripple' it. It restricts it, sure, but my main purpose for using it - Bible study, remains relatively unaffected. Logos4 in that scenario, for me, is at about the same level of effectiveness as Logos3. But with a much nicer interface.
Actually, my current strategy is to:
These 'restrictions' are offset by the fact that I use Logos (3 & 4) 99% of the time for Greek studies, comparing translations etc, so it's more 'academic' than 'personal'. Also, now that the COM API is getting more usable (in the current Beta at least) I am able to write a pretty decent Notes system of my own that uses Logos but is not tied into Logos. And yes, that involves writing my own Word Processor. But I'm a programmer and actually enjoy doing these things[H]
That doesn't mean that I think Logos's current strategy is 'right', 'best' or even 'good'. Far from it. But I have found a way, for me, that ignores the bits I don't like and still allows me to use the bits that I do like. But I have the advantage of literally being able to 'code around' the deficiencies this strategy causes.
When my program is 'finished' (as if programs are ever really finished) it is my intention to make it freely available... But my secular work is busy at the moment, so I can't say when that might be...
Andy
Also, now that the COM API is getting more usable (in the current Beta at least) I am able to write a pretty decent Notes system of my own that uses Logos but is not tied into Logos. And yes, that involves writing my own Word Processor. But I'm a programmer and actually enjoy doing these things
When my program is 'finished' (as if programs
are ever really finished) it is my intention to make it freely
available... But my secular work is busy at the moment, so I can't say when that might be...
I am sure there will be some interest in this when you get it 'done' (ie. to the point where you feel comfortable sharing it)... but take your time appreciate it is a labour of love.
Not to bring a 'dead horse' back to life, but
You raised the dead without even trying! [6]
I'll take a general pass on all the repetitive posts that will necessarily follow your post. But I just have to ask, if all the privacy advocates have so diligently and craftily been able to "fix" the Logos phone home issue, why must everyone keep calling the software "crippled?" My automobile will not fly like Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang, but I won't call it "crippled."
I'm glad to be FLYING HIGH with Logos4 but sad others are grounded.[:(]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
Ok, put the dead horse back in the ground. I figured out the problem. Logos responds to turning ON the internet session without leaving. But turning it OFF seems to require exiting the program. Since L4 is not exactly the young whippersnapper of software, I rarely exit the program. I'm no privacy addict, but I did spend many years in high-end data mining and was a speaker at various conferences. And so just as good manners, I sort of expect software to not demand intrusiveness, no matter 'the world is changing'.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
I'll take a general pass on all the repetitive posts that will
necessarily follow your post. But I just have to ask, if all the privacy
advocates have so diligently and craftily been able to "fix" the Logos
phone home issue, why must everyone keep calling the software
"crippled?" My automobile will not fly like Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang,
but I won't call it "crippled."
It seems simple to me.
1. Logos sells a piece of software that does X, Y, and Z. These features are integrated in a way that makes them easy to use together, and, in fact, are designed to work work together.
2. Logos refuses to provide any sort of privacy for function Z.
3. When you ask why Logos won't provide any privacy for function Z, they simply say, "don't keep your data in the software." This effectively disables function Z, forcing you to do this function outside Logos itself.
4. Since function Z was designed as part of the original software, and is tightly integrated into the software --in fact, this is one of the selling points for the software itself-- the software doesn't work as advertised without this function.
5. Hence, the software is crippled.
Let me put it another way --suppose MS Word were designed to be able to save off addresses in an address book so you don't have the type the addresses you use into documents all the time. You discover that MS Word, in fact, places any addresses you put into the software onto a common server that's not encrypted or in protected in any other way. You're a bit concerned about this, so you ask --can I please have a local address book? MS' answer is, "No, just don't keep your address book in our software." So, because you consider your address book private, you must keep your address book in another piece of software, and copy/paste into Word whenever you want to use it. Because of this you lose the ability to use address shortcuts, styling of addresses, and a slew of other features --in fact, features you originally shelled out money for.
Now, is the software "crippled?"
Yes.
Logos is crippled in the same way. The company sells their software with the ability to store notes and prayer lists. These features are tightly integrated into the software itself, allowing you to do things you can't do if you store your notes and prayer lists outside the software itself. Some people consider these things private, so they are concerned about placing this information onto a common server with absolutely no security. When users asks Logos to solve this problem, their answer is, "No, we will not allow you to selectively synchronize YOUR data, and we WILL NOT allow you to encrypt YOUR data, so you only have two choices --live without those features, which you paid money for, or put up with YOUR data, which you're creating, and which you consider private, being placed on our servers, even though we REFUSE to take ANY responsibility for maintaining the privacy of YOUR data."
I'll say right now that answering, "well, it's not really private data," is a copout, pure and simple. It's not up to YOU, or to Logos, or to anyone else on this board, to determine what I consider private. If I want to keep the color of my dog a secret, that's my choice, not yours, or Logos'.
So, Logos IS crippled in its current state. OneNote, Evernote, and many other products allow you to both selectively choose what to synchronize, and also to encrypt your data when it's on the cloud service.The other alternate would be for Logos to realize they're making users upset with this nonsense --selling one thing, and actually providing another-- and that it's actually unethical to treat user's data in this way, and provide stronger links into an outside note taking package that WILL provide the features users actually want.
I strongly suspect Logos won't do this because while they don't want to be responsible for your data, they also want to lock you in to their software in as many ways as possible. If all your research notes from the last x number of years is in Logos, you're not about to switch software vendors even if another, possibly better, package comes out. I understand the attempt at lock-in --all software companies do this-- but then give us the features we need to protect our data, even if it's in your format.
It all seems pretty cut and dry to me.
1. Logos promises specific features.
2. I cannot use those features even though I paid for them because of Logos' policies.
3. Logos refuses to respect the level of protection for my data that I consider appropriate.
4. Logos refuses to provide another option for me to use.
Russ
I'll take a general pass on all the repetitive posts that will necessarily follow your post
Sometimes it would be better if MVP's did this more often. The majority of times they have a lot of good to say ... but sometimes...the should just [:#], particularly if they can't respond to a customer's concerns without trying to make the customer feel wrong for even sharing their feedback , or commenting in a way that makes their feedback seem irrelevant - remember MVP's: All customers of Logos pay to license this software and should be able to express their feedback They should be able to do this on the forums without having an MVP tell them their view is wrong and or irrelevant, and always keep in mind point 3 of the guidelines, particularly if you have to explain how their understanding of how the software actually works is incorrect. But don't mix that up with your personal philosophy on how it should work.
why must everyone keep calling the software "crippled?"
Why, because its a case of all to be sync or none to be sync. Speaking hypothetically if I wanted to have my layouts sync'd with Logos server but not my notes, then well I can't. So if that was how I wished to manage MY user created content in Logos 4, well I just couldn't and so in terms of the software functionally I would called it 'crippled'.
Your response is indicating to me you are positioning yourself as the 'stronger brother in this case'. Whether an MVP' or ordinary forum member, if we find ourselves thinking like i.e. our view of how the software should work is just so right and the other person is just so wrong, cause they don't line up with my personal view... then we need to reflect upon what the apostle Paul shared about this sort of situation before putting finger to keyboard.
.the should just
Can we all now do likewise!
Dave
===
Windows 11 & Android 13
.they should justCan we all now do likewise!
When Logos fixes this issue, and stops telling me what I should consider "private data," and what I shouldn't, I'll "zip it." When Logos stops telling me their technical support costs are more important than my decision about what's private or not, then I'll "zip it." When Logos stops telling me their technical support costs are more important than my ability to actually use the software as advertised, then I'll "zip it."
In the mean time, I don't think I will "zip it," thank you very much.
Russ
.they should justCan we all now do likewise!
The majority of times they have a lot of good to say ... but sometimes...they should just,
Dave I had no idea what you were trying to say or who you were really directing it at... but it's had the opposite effect.... kind of like Test: Disregard or Stay of the Grass. By taking my quote out of its full context its left the door open for this issue to continue with great angst and upset ... and that's what has happened.
I
.they should justCan we all now do likewise!
In the mean time, I don't think I will "zip it," thank you very much.
Dave, despite my confusion at your post, I left it alone because I had said all I wanted to say on the issue of MVP's responding to customers. I was saddened that I even had to contemplate responding the way I did, even as I think about it now, but I've seen this sort of thing happen enough that I could no longer let it pass without comment and so some of my responses to MVP's over the last couple of days.
Russ I am sorry you are getting this attitude from some on these forums. 99.9999999% of the time MVP's are very helpful, thoughtful and committed to they way in which they respond to Logos customers. Like all of us they have their own priorities, ranking of importance and relevance of issues. And like them we all make the mistake at some time in our live of trying to impose what's important to us upon others.
they should just
Can we all now do likewise!Dave, despite my confusion at your post, I left it alone because I had said all I wanted to say on the issue of MVP's responding to customers. I was saddened that I even had to contemplate responding the way I did, even as I think about it now
Your call to "zip it" was not offensive to me as an MVP but my remark was addressed to "all". The comments in this thread are a matter of record; they cannot be undone nor will they go unnoticed! I felt that further comments were likely to become personal and detract from the opinions already expressed, irrespective of whether I agree or disagree with them.
Dave
===
Windows 11 & Android 13
they should just
Can we all now do likewise!Dave, despite my confusion at your post, I left it alone because I had said all I wanted to say on the issue of MVP's responding to customers. I was saddened that I even had to contemplate responding the way I did, even as I think about it now
Your call to "zip it" was not offensive to me as an MVP but my remark was addressed to "all". The comments in this thread are a matter of record; they cannot be undone nor will they go unnoticed! I felt that further comments were likely to become personal and detract from the opinions already expressed, irrespective of whether I agree or disagree with them.
Thanks for clarifying Dave.
Solution to the problem...other pieces of software.
The one thing you failed to provide in your post is what your concern is. What about "phoning home" causes your concern? As for the error reporting, do you have the same concern with respect to your operating system?The easiest solution for making all your software not phone home is to go with a modem on a phone line.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
MJ, You just have to accept that this is important to me, and I am asking Logos for a formal reply to my concern here.
As for other programs, to the maximum extent possible, I disable all automated updates, usage feedback, quality-of-service reporting, and just about anything else I can turn off.
In some cases, I place a firewall block on the program if I can, or uninstall it, and use something else, or go without. Its MY COMPUTER and MY CALL on this mater.
In Logos, I want "Use Internet = NO" to do what it says, and NOT phone home. Its simple really.
Hi Jim,
Have you tried my suggestion above? The feature you are requesting, is available in Logos 4 though via a different way.
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
Sorry for prying - I was merely interested because I like to understand others' reactions.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
MJ,
Sorry if I came over stronger than I intended.
I am seeking for Logos to accept this as a matter of concern to some people. At least me, but I have seen it from others:
There are MANY forum posts where some are seeking both notification and control over what is downloaded. I have also see where Bob Pritchet said we cant have that. Its his company and product but I must disagree with him in that regard. I too want download control. But thats not the focus of my post here.
What we really need is to be able to have "Internet=ON or OFF", but "Sync=OFF" so we get updates, but my notes and usage never leaves my PC.
Respectfully, he has already listed the easiest way to ensure this, by adding firewall rules to prevent it. Using a modem will only cause severe frustration due to slow speeds and the fact that when connected it will still communicate with the Logos servers albeit slooooowly.
Comodo Firewall is free and award winning, it will serve this purpose very well. I use it for this very reason, I do not like any software sneaking out communication if I do not authorize it to do so. This includes Logos although I love the product and if I "trust" any company it is certainly these lovely folks. It's just the principle of the thing.
Logos should certainly add an option to disable any net access from within the software settings for those not savvy enough to configure firewalls etc.
Logos 5, Windows & Android perfect together....