Disreputable Company, Thy Name is Logos

Just one example: the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha shipping date was postponed five times, on or one day before the scheduled date of shipping, always without having the courtesy of informing its customers of the "delays." Now the product has been labeled "under development," which means all these previous dates were fake.

This is not the way to run a reputable company.

Nice new website, though. Real flashy.

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K.J.

Num 11:1-6

11 Now the people became like those who complain of adversity in the hearing of the Lord; and when the Lord heard it, His anger was kindled, and the fire of the Lord burned among them and consumed some of the outskirts of the camp. 2 The people therefore cried out to Moses, and Moses prayed to the Lord and the fire died out. 3 So the name of that place was called Taberah, because the fire of the Lord burned among them.

4 The rabble who were among them had greedy desires; and also the sons of Israel wept again and said, "Who will give us meat to eat? 5 "We remember the fish which we used to eat free in Egypt, the cucumbers and the melons and the leeks and the onions and the garlic, 6 but now our appetite is gone. There is nothing at all to look at except this manna."

Rabble????[:P]

Paul N

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189826#Comment_189826

Every time I read a post like the op this I always ask myself:

"Why was this posted on the Logos forums?"

We've seen folks speak as if it were directly to Logos as a person yet they always make sure its for everyone to see here in the always public forums.

Then posts such as this... which if were true in heart, would be a better fit in some form of 3rd party discussion... yet they're posted here... always on the Logos forums

so tfjern, with the ability to contact Logos privately by phone or e-mail, what you really want is for this to be seen by other Logos users... in the Logos forums, so that maybe it will be a rallying point for a mob like push to pass an agenda.

My ultimate question is why mask this?

We all know how to use the forums properly so either contact Logos privately with the issue or go ahead and just admit that you're attempting to start an emotionally charged quest to have something changed within the way Logos runs its company

I'd just prefer we carry it out with civility and with clear intentions. I can hold you to that tfjern if you hold me to it.

Matthew C Jones

Just one example: the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha shipping date was postponed five times

[:P] Maybe they were just Pseudo-ship dates! [:P]

Really now. I guess Logos could & should change the terminology to "Anticipated shipping date" to appease everybody. I know it can be frustrating when you just gotta have it. And we can start quoting Matthew 5:37 or James 4:13-16. But I do not think Logos swore or promised to deliver on "ship dates" but is planning to, God willing. (Maybe God was not willing !?!)

K.J.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189833#Comment_189833

And we can start quoting Matthew 5:37 or James 4:13-16.

Yes, Quoting Scripture is a Good approach....John 8:7

And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

Wilson Hines

Just one example: the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha shipping date was postponed five times, on or one day before the scheduled date of shipping, always without having the courtesy of informing its customers of the "delays." Now the product has been labeled "under development," which means all these previous dates were fake.

This is not the way to run a reputable company.

Nice new website, though. Real flashy.

This is just sad. It is a pre-publication. As you know, that title is a part of the AYRL which has been delayed because of contract issues. I think, I know, your statement is too harsh.

They are a reputable company. They have a fantastic reputation with me. They've made mistakes with me. Just a few months ago the ordering system double charged me for a pre-pub when it was released. I called and they solved the problem immediately and credited my card. I had no proof it was the order systems fault, but common sense will tell you I don't order multiple copies of pre-pubs that are downloaded. It was fixed overnight. I've been doing business with them since 1994 and I've never been let down by them.

If you think the delay of a pre-pub is reason enough to charge them of ill-repute, you're wrong - flat crazy. I wish somebody delete the thread. It's slander.

tfjern

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189826#Comment_189826

Moab is my washbasin; upon Edom I cast my shoe; over Philistia I shout in triumph. (Psa 60:8 ESV)

Hey, K.J., if you can cite irrelevant to the topic passages, so can I.

K.J.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189839#Comment_189839

if you can cite irrelevant to the topic passages, so can I.

Not irrelevant to a logical mind.

Phil 4:8

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.

Ken Shawver

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189839#Comment_189839

Paul I agree with you. This is something that should be handled directly with Logos if you have a problem. Maybe they found an issue with the pre-pub and rather than ship it with the issues it might have had decided the best approach was to fix it. I'd rahter have a release delayed to fix something than to ship it broken - besides how many posts wouth THAT generate [:D].

I have a Pre-Pub of the Hebrew Pronunciation on order originally in the first month is was put on for Logos3, then took it off and put it back on a couple of months later. I am still waiting, but I rather let the Logos team get it right, then ship it out with problems.

Patience is a virtue, and when waiting for a release...patience is always a blessing.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189839#Comment_189839

Hey, K.J., if you can cite irrelevant to the topic passages, so can I.

Could be the grumbling part of the passage is relevant.

I still think Logos could change the label to "Anticipated ship date.": It may not appease everyone but it would disarm them.
(Everybody starts to drop the rocks they are holding and quietly walk away..................)

Maybe you were not aware of the contract issues the publisher raised that forced Logos to hold back on the release.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189847#Comment_189847

I have a Pre-Pub of the Hebrew Pronunciation on order originally in the first month is was put on for Logos3, then took it off and put it back on a couple of months later. I am still waiting, but I rather let the Logos team get it right, then ship it out with problems.

Me too, Kenneth.

And Logos is waiting on Microsoft to get the speech engine in Windows right. It seems therein lies the problem of Hebrew pronunciation.

Most Logos delays are usually caused by factors beyond their control. And regardless of who's fault it is, isn't it better to get it right the first time?

Seymore

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189850#Comment_189850

I just searched Logos for the word "Scrooge" No Hits !! Did I spell it incorrectly?

Edit>>> never mind I found the definitions i was looking for. >>> Scrooge - miser, cheapskate, chuff, hunks, moneygrubber, muckworm, nabal, skinflint, stiff, niggard

Merriam-Webster, I. (1996). Merriam-Webster's collegiate thesaurus. Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189855#Comment_189855

I just searched Logos for the word "Scrooge" No Hits !! Did I spell it incorrectly?

Guess you didn't participate in last year's Christmas Sale: http://blog.logos.com/archives/2009/12/the_12_days_of_logos_sale.html... [:)]

BillS

This is not the way to run a reputable company.

A disreputable company would'n't have permitted this thread to remain on their server. Only a reputable company like Logos would open themselves like this.

Bohuslav Wojnar

This is not the way to run a reputable company.

Sometimes I wander what is the real intention of posts like this. It is hard to believe to me, knowing all the things going on in the business world today, someone would really be able to call a company like Logos a disreputable company... for what? For postponing the anticipated date of shipping because of some unexpected difficulties???

James W Bennett

Just one example: the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha shipping date was postponed five times, on or one day before the scheduled date of shipping, always without having the courtesy of informing its customers of the "delays." Now the product has been labeled "under development," which means all these previous dates were fake.

This is not the way to run a reputable company.

Please read the following forum thread that was originally posted by a Logos employee on Oct 6.

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/24080.aspx

It clearly states that the OTP is one of the products that has its shipping dates affected due to requests/changes/whatever because of the Publisher, not because of Logos.

I too am waiting for the OTP and could REALLY use it for my MA thesis
YESTERDAY. But, the actual release is clearly out of their control and so now they have decided not to keep second guessing when the Publisher might allow it to be released. And so they have been responsible and tried to inform their customers and tried to give us the proper notices.

While they might have done better by emailing us, they did perform due diligence. I have found Logos very responsive to the customer for the more than 10 years I have been dealing with them. And they have proven themselves to be a reputable company.

Under the circumstances, I at least, believe an apology is due Logos. But that is up to you. I have tried to correct your misunderstanding that they had not tried to inform their customers and will now ignore this thread since I believe the matter to be closed.

Phil Gons (Logos)

Just one example: the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha shipping date was postponed five times, on or one day before the scheduled date of shipping, always without having the courtesy of informing its customers of the "delays." Now the product has been labeled "under development," which means all these previous dates were fake.

Thanks for your feedback. We provide estimated ship dates as a service to our customers. They are our best guesses at when the product will be finished and on its way to those who ordered it. We're constantly working to improve our ability to predict all of the variables and provide as accurate estimates as possible, but we still fall short—often through unforeseeable circumstances—and probably always will.

But we're still always striving to do a better job with ship dates. For example, a recent change we made was to start broadening the estmate the further out we get from the ship date.

If it's within 30 days of the estimated ship date, we show Month XX, XXXX.
If it's between 31 and 90 days, we show Month XXXX.
If it's more than 90 days, we show QX.

We've debated dropping the precise estimates altogether since we're not consistently hitting them. But the feel I get from customers is that they'd rather have the information, even if it's not always accurate, than not have the information at all (or have vaguer information). Does that represent the majority of you? Or would you rather we drop (precise) ship dates altogether?

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189949#Comment_189949

We've debated dropping the precise estimates altogether since we're not consistently hitting them. But the feel I get from customers is that they'd rather have the information, even if it's not always accurate, than not have the information at all (or have vaguer information). Does that represent the majority of you? Or would you rather we drop (precise) ship dates altogether?

Please don't ... I am disappointed but realize the Anchor Reference Library is not Logos fault.. I am sure you have it maybe even ready to ship out the door but somebody is being really nit picky at Yale. I am assuming that tomorrows date is a no go. I like to know about when things will get released. And with resources i assume you have a good idea when they will be done. The anchor commentaries were off a bit but I wasn't really worried. I would like to know the next best guess for YARL but i know you literally may not know, and I also know how frustrating it must be, you have put tons of work into it and things must be very serious for it to be taking this long (poor ignorant me, I assumed once you had a contract it was just the hard work, I had no idea they were able to stop it).

-dan

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189949#Comment_189949

But the feel I get from customers is that they'd rather have the information, even if it's not always accurate, than not have the information at all (or have vaguer information). Does that represent the majority of you? Or would you rather we drop (precise) ship dates altogether?

Just continue as you are doing now!

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189949#Comment_189949

Does that represent the majority of you?

I am happy with your present set up amd very happy with the new web site tweaking you are doing. KUDOS!

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189964#Comment_189964

Does that represent the majority of you?

I am happy with your present set up amd very happy with the new web site tweaking you are doing. KUDOS!

Yes, the same with me. The new way you do (the closer the more precise date) is fine, although I have had no problem seeing date change in the past, knowing there is always some reason for that. I always understood it as anticipated date, not a promised date.

I am very happy with the new web site. All the little things that are not perfect will be smoothed out, so what is the problem? Congratulations to all of you in Logos for a great job. [Y]

Jonathan Burke

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189949#Comment_189949

But we're still always striving to do a better job with ship dates. For example, a recent change we made was to start broadening the estmate the further out we get from the ship date.

But the feel I get from customers is that they'd rather have the information, even if it's not always accurate, than not have the information at all (or have vaguer information). Does that represent the majority of you? Or would you rather we drop (precise) ship dates altogether?

Thank you for the details Phil, that's very useful. What you've described represents me just perfectly. I understand the pre-pub dates are guesstimates, and treat them accordingly.

Graham Owen

shipping date was postponed five times

without having the courtesy of informing its customers of the "delays."

This is not the way to run a reputable company.

There is is massive leap between these statements, poor communications about a project that is slipping does not make Logos disreputable. I think it is valid to ask Logos to look at the accuracy of their scheduling and the frequency and timeliness of their communications but in my opinion neither of these failings indicates a moral failure at Logos and it was certainly not done to deceive or extort. There is no benefit to Logos in delaying prepublications as they only retrieve their investment when the item ships and we pay.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189987#Comment_189987

The OP and following posts by the OP are just reprehensible.

They are pointless, rude and ill informed.

On the other hand; Logos (Phil Gons) has shown themselves to be gracious and helpful in the face of an unwarranted accusation.

Kudos to Logos.

PS: I like the current system; don't change it.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189997#Comment_189997

I am also happy with the current way of showing estimated ship date.

Thanks, Logos / Phil, for the prompt response to this rude original post.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189949#Comment_189949

But the feel I get from customers is that they'd rather have the information, even if it's not always accurate, than not have the information at all (or have vaguer information). Does that represent the majority of you?

This system works for me, as it helps me prepare. If you miss a scheduled date, I may be disappointed, but it is not the end of the world. I appreciate Logos' openness.

Mark McP

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189949#Comment_189949

I, "for one" like your approach of refining the potential date as you get closer ...I would rather deal with an occasional disappointment than to deal with "no information at all"![Y]

Jerry Bush

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189964#Comment_189964

tfjern -

Does it not occur to you that almost all of your posts are negative? I cannot imagine having to live with you or how you treat people in person.

If I were Logos, I would have banned you from the forums long ago. They must be more tolerant and loving than I am.

Finally, to call Logos a disreputable company is to show either ignorance or an intentional act to defame part of the Body of Christ.

Jerry

Edwin Bowden

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/190011#Comment_190011

I, "for one" like your approach of refining the potential date as you get closer ...I would rather deal with an occasional disappointment than to deal with "no information at all"!

[Y][Y]

Jerry Bush

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/190025#Comment_190025

I, "for one" like your approach of refining the potential date as you get closer ...I would rather deal with an occasional disappointment than to deal with "no information at all"!

And a third [Y]

Jerry

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/190028#Comment_190028

I too like the dates even though I am disappointed at times. So I would vote not to change the policy.

I appreciate updates when there is something to say. In this case, I think Logos has been clear there is a Publisher issue, which explains why the resource is probably on the shelf ready to go, just waiting for contract RE-approval. That's a much different scenario than say, "Oops - we thought we were done but the book has 300 more pages!". Logos can't help that the publisher reopened the issue.

That said, I hope updates continue on this, telling us what's up, as these are resources I am really looking forward to, and now having no clue when they will be out is a little disconcerting.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189949#Comment_189949

We've debated dropping the precise estimates altogether since we're not consistently hitting them. But the feel I get from customers is that they'd rather have the information, even if it's not always accurate, than not have the information at all (or have vaguer information). Does that represent the majority of you? Or would you rather we drop (precise) ship dates altogether?

While I occasionally get frustrated that the Hebrew Pronunciation thingy isn't done; I remember that I haven't paid for it yet either.

I actually like the way you've spelled out the ship date estimates. I would be in favor of changing the label from "Ships (date)" to "estimated (date)"

As for the reputation of Logos: After more than a decade and many thousands of $ I can confirm that they have always been way above board in their dealings with me. [y]

Bobby Terhune

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189964#Comment_189964

I'm happy with the system you have in place now, please don't change it.

Kaye Anderson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/190071#Comment_190071

I'm happy with the system you have in place now, please don't change it.

I agree. I'm always excited to see a possible ship date on something I anticipate and understand it might slip because of the nature of the process. I love the product and have gotten my money's worth using the various plans like community pricing, pre-pubs and sales. From my viewpoint Logos has kept its commitments to me and the general user population.

Bill Moore

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189964#Comment_189964

I often hope the ship date is not accurate so there will be a delay in when my credit card will be charged. [:)]

Wilson Hines

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/190082#Comment_190082

I often hope the ship date is not accurate so there will be a delay in when my credit card will be charged.

I concur with Bill here LOL. Hey Bill, I've had interesting moments in Clinton, SC and I don't even hold those moments against the people of Clinton ROFLOL.

RE this issue:

James 4: 11 mDo not speak evil against one another, brothers.4 The one who speaks against a brother or njudges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. 12 There is only oone lawgiver andpjudge, he who is able to save and qto destroy. But rwho are you to judge your neighbor?

I've been guilty too! There's just no excuse.

I am FOR keeping the system the same. It's the best system for the customers, but amitingly, it's probably not the best system for logos.

Tom Geswein

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189969#Comment_189969

When you consider the mass amount of time, energy, money and unforseen events that go into publishing a digital resource, it's amazing that you can predict a release date at all. That fact that you are usually close is amazing. Most customers realize that you are not prophets. Ignore the naysayers - keep the system working the way it is.

"Disreputable" is way too strong of an accusation for something so trivial. I too get a little annoyed at times at release dates, but as I said, they can't predict the future. I have to keep reminding myself that my annoyance is selfish. They are doing the best that they can with a lot of variables.

Great new website. Great product. Great business. Please keep up the good work.

Steve Maling

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/190097#Comment_190097

Hey, Tom, I'm with you on all your points.

Logos, way to go! Hang in there[:D]

Scott S

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189949#Comment_189949

the feel I get from customers is that they'd rather have the information, even if it's not always accurate, than not have the information at all (or have vaguer information).

Please continue providing detailed projected dates. This is helpful for planning and fun to look forward to the release of valued resources.

Bill Moore

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/190093#Comment_190093

I often hope the ship date is not accurate so there will be a delay in when my credit card will be charged.

I concur with Bill here LOL. Hey Bill, I've had interesting moments in Clinton, SC and I don't even hold those moments against the people of Clinton ROFLOL.

. . . .

Well, you've piqued my curiosity, Wilson! My wife and I are transplants, having lived here for a little over eight years now. Nice small town, though.

Mike Tourangeau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189949#Comment_189949

We've debated dropping the precise estimates altogether since we're not consistently hitting them. But the feel I get from customers is that they'd rather have the information, even if it's not always accurate, than not have the information at all (or have vaguer information). Does that represent the majority of you? Or would you rather we drop (precise) ship dates altogether?

I for one like the est. ship dates. I prefer they stay. It helps with planning on how to pay for them and/or hide it from the wife [:D]

Let me take this opportunity to sat that Logos has been a GREAT blessing/help to me. I understand dates "slip." I just hit "update now" day after day till it comes.... its exciting [:P]

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189839#Comment_189839

Moab is my washbasin; upon Edom I cast my shoe; over Philistia I shout in triumph. (Psa 60:8 ESV)

Hey, K.J., if you can cite irrelevant to the topic passages, so can I.

It would seem that even Paul had to change his mind on occassion.

6 They went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. ⁷When they had come opposite Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them; ⁸so, passing by Mysia, they went down to Troas. ⁹During the night Paul had a vision: there stood a man of Macedonia pleading with him and saying, "Come over to Macedonia and help us." ¹⁰When he had seen the vision, we immediately tried to cross over to Macedonia, being convinced that God had called us to proclaim the good news to them.

NRSV Ac 16.6-10

Remember "Man proposes, but God disposes."

nicky crane

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189987#Comment_189987

shipping date was postponed five times

without having the courtesy of informing its customers of the "delays."

This is not the way to run a reputable company.

There is is massive leap between these statements, poor communications about a project that is slipping does not make Logos disreputable. I think it is valid to ask Logos to look at the accuracy of their scheduling and the frequency and timeliness of their communications but in my opinion neither of these failings indicates a moral failure at Logos and it was certainly not done to deceive or extort. There is no benefit to Logos in delaying prepublications as they only retrieve their investment when the item ships and we pay.

I agree [Y] , annoyed tho I am about Logos' repeated failure to communicate re delays over the last month or so. [^o)]

The thing that really annoys me is not the delays, frustrating tho they are, but not being warned till after the advertised shipping date. I think many of us would appreciate it if Logos would send those of us who are looking forward to download the product that day or the next day an email to say it will be later. Failing that, explanations in the forums a day or 2 in advance that there may be a delay. What about a flag or something in the prepub column, saying delayed?

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/190153#Comment_190153

I think many of us would appreciate it if Logos would send those of us who are looking forward to download the product that day or the next day an email to say it will be later. Failing that, explanations in the forums a day or 2 in advance that there may be a delay. What about a flag or something in the prepub column, saying delayed?

i think the email and flag are great ideas, nicky.

Dean J. Ferguson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/189949#Comment_189949

I appreciate the present situation and do not wish to see a reduction in information. I would not mind seeing even more speculation from time to time to know that there is still life on the other end and not buried shelf ... soryy, hard drive.

Ralph A. Abernethy III

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/190156#Comment_190156

I too am disappointed that the product has been delayed, but it's outside of Logos' control, so I'm willing to wait. I've been a satisfied Logos customer for 12 years, and the delays in the release of the AYRL have done nothing to change my satisfaction with the company and its software. Please keep the current system and let us know estimated release dates.

Two [Y][Y] for Logos!

Ken Shawver

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/190008#Comment_190008

But the feel I get from customers is that they'd rather have the information, even if it's not always accurate, than not have the information at all (or have vaguer information). Does that represent the majority of you?

This system works for me, as it helps me prepare. If you miss a scheduled date, I may be disappointed, but it is not the end of the world. I appreciate Logos' openness.

Works for me too [Y] [Y] [Y] [Y]

Phil Gons (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/190153#Comment_190153

Thanks for the feedback. We'll try to do a better job of communicating with you when we are unable to hit a projected ship date.

nicky crane

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/190192#Comment_190192

Thanks for the feedback. We'll try to do a better job of communicating with you when we are unable to hit a projected ship date.

That will be MUCH appreciated! I think it will defuse the frustration and anger. Delays I'm informed about will just be a fact of life I have to live with.

Living in Abania we have plenty of hard facts of life we have to live with, often not accompanied by the consideration we normally get from Logos. When hassle comes from Christians, I find it more painful and frustrating, but it does happen - after all, Jesus came to call sinners, and he's got a lot of work to do in most of our lives, above all mine! When I feel let down by Logos, it's more painful, because it's so out of character for Logos. And, face it, we've had some lack of communication over the last month or so.

Now things can only get better! (I trust).

Incidentally yesterday I spent about 2 hours on Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac, a story I know off by heart and must have told dozens of times. This time I looked it up in WBC for the first time, and got a whole new perspective on it. Our men's group (enquirers) met for the first time in 18 months. They know the story too, but were also very moved. 2 miracles happened. One man works like bonded labourer, at his employers' beck and call at all hours of day and night. LAst time he tried to join us, he had actually reached my gate when the phone went to inform him they were coming to take him to work. He used to be convinced they'd sack him if he ever said no. This time he rang them in the afternoon to say he couldn't come in to work that evening and then SWITCHED HIS PHONE OFF till we'd finished! The other miracle was that, not having met for 18 months, when I suggested making a date to meet again in a month's time, they all happily agreed. Usually they won't commit themselves.

The wife of one of the men suggested we do the Abraham story as the Muslim feast of Bajram Kurban (Id al Adha??), which commemorates Abraham's sacrifice, is approaching.

So Logos is impacting Muslims, as well as myself! Red herring[;)]