Printing versus Copy/Paste Text - Explanation Please

Hi Devs,

I can understand the complexity of providing direct printing however I would have thought that the simple;

highlight text–copy text to clip board–paste text elsewhere

would be quite easy to provide in every panel. This function being almost universal in every other application that I use.

Do I misunderstand the situation?

What is the reason that panels like the search results and cross references have their text un-selectable?

Thanks

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B. J. Clarke

[Y] [Y] [Y]

Tom Philpot (Faithlife)

What is the reason that panels like the search results and cross references have their text un-selectable?

I believe that part of the reason on Windows was for performance, but I wasn't party to the initial design discussion on Windows. Corresponding behavior on Mac was built because of the way Windows did it.

however I would have thought that the simple;

highlight text–copy text to clip board–paste text elsewhere

would be quite easy to provide in every panel.

Just because a feature is common, doesn't mean it's necessarily easy to implement. We do a lot of custom drawing both on Windows and Mac and implementing selection in a way that "just works" is a non trivial task.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191577#Comment_191577

Tom, since there is a way to copy text to the clipboard via the Print/Export command, I'm satisfied with that for most panels now. But one area that it still bothers me we cannot select and copy text is from the resource info panel. That text should be selectable, as it was in Logos 3. Any idea whether this is already on the internal dev list of things to address? Thanks!

Mike Binks

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191595#Comment_191595

Tom, since there is a way to copy text to the clipboard via the Print/Export command, I'm satisfied with that for most panels now.

Arh Rosie,

I am in conversation on another thread about this with a user who would just love to do this.

Would you mind dragging out your Mac and posting a few screen shots on how to do this - say with the results of the 'Cross References' panel of the Passage Guide?

Mike Binks

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191577#Comment_191577

I believe that part of the reason on Windows was for performance, but I wasn't party to the initial design discussion on Windows. Corresponding behavior on Mac was built because of the way Windows did it.

Which of course begs the (probably rhetorical) question; 'If you were building the Mac application from the ground up' would you have done it that way?

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191645#Comment_191645

Arh Rosie,

I am in conversation on another thread about this with a user who would just love to do this.

Would you mind dragging out your Mac and posting a few screen shots on how to do this

Arh, so sorry. I keep forgetting this is the Mac forum. No Print/Export command yet. It's coming, though!

Mike Binks

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191647#Comment_191647

Arh, so sorry. I keep forgetting this is the Mac forum. No Print/Export command yet. It's coming, though!

I guess that means I can take my tongue out of my cheek now?[;)]

Sharon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191645#Comment_191645

I am in conversation on another thread about this with a user who would just love to do this.

I think I know that user! [;)]

I found this, but I don't understand if it includes or excludes being able to export a list of Bible verses generated by a search?

Thanks for any clarification!

Shaorn

Sharon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191687#Comment_191687

Oops! I forgot to copy and paste what I found! [;)]

Print/Export

"Print/Export" option is available on panel menus (or Ctrl+P) for most features, including resources. (Exceptions: Copy Bible Verses, Home, Layouts, and Library.)
Resources, Documents, etc. may be printed or exported to various file formats (depending on the feature). File types may include Rich Text Format (Word, etc.), Text Document, Web Page (HTML), Spreadsheet (Excel, etc.), XPS Document, and Image.
"Bibliography only" is integrated with print/export panel for Clippings and Collections. Citation file types are available for export: BibTeX, Refer/BiblX, and RIS.
WYSIWYG printing ("Print as shown on screen") is available for some features.
Zoom in and out of Print Preview using mouse scroll wheel with Ctrl key held down, or using Ctrl+plus(+) and Ctrl+minus(-) keyboard shortcuts.

David Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191646#Comment_191646

'If you were building the Mac application from the ground up' would you have done it that way?

This question contains a false premise: it assumes that such an application would be far enough along by this point for such a decision to have been made. Portions of our codebase have been around for nearly 20 years; the effort required to rewrite all of that from scratch (and the never-ending stream of incompatibilities that would come along as a result) make this question not even worth pondering: if we built the app from the ground up, there would be no app.

Cameron Watters (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191646#Comment_191646

Which of course begs the (probably rhetorical) question; 'If you were building the Mac application from the ground up' would you have done it that way?

I don't know. We built the Windows app from the ground up on and it has the same limitation, so it's entirely possible.

What I *do* know is this: text selection & copy/paste is not an "automagically, for-free" aspect of displaying text "the Mac way". I also know that the lack of selectable text in the Mac version is unrelated to our use of code shared with the Windows project. Our UI is written in Cocoa.

Similarly, a cursory review of two or three Apple applications (including Mail and iCal) indicates that there is plenty of text that cannot be selected for copy/paste and/or selectable text that isn't easily selectable. That doesn't mean it's not desirable for Logos or those apps and it doesn't mean that I think Logos is equivalent to iCal or Mail; it does mean that the assertion that "a real Mac app would get this for free" is trivially refuted.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191788#Comment_191788

What I *do* know is this: text selection & copy/paste is not an "automagically, for-free" aspect of displaying text "the Mac way". I also know that the lack of selectable text in the Mac version is unrelated to our use of code shared with the Windows project.

I'm guessing that lack of text selection on both Windows and Mac is a result of a design decision early on -- to draw directly to the screen and let the system's display engine manage where that text is and what happens to it after it's on the screen (repainting it after it gets covered up or scrolling it, for example). Speaking from experience as one of the developers of Microsoft Word, in order to provide selectable text, the software would need to keep its own mapping of what is on the screen where so that when a user clicked and dragged on text, you could convert the screen coordinates back to location within the text and provide selection capabilities. It's not impossible, but I know it would be very difficult to add, because it wasn't planned into the design from the beginning.

Sharon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191786#Comment_191786

Hi David and Cameron,

Would you mind reading the two posts above your two posts? I'd really appreciate any answers you can give me.

Thank you,

Sharon

David Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191821#Comment_191821

There's currently no print/export support in Logos 4 for Mac at the moment. I'm working on it right now, and both features will be made available at the same time. The search panel will support this feature.

Sharon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191859#Comment_191859

Thank you.

May I ask you one more question?

When I talked with tech support this week I was told that print/export would not be available until next year, but it should be available within one year.

Since you are working on it as I type, [:)] my question is - can you give me a little better time handle than 'within one year'?

As much detail as possible will be very much appreciated.

Thanks again,

Sharon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191859#Comment_191859

David, I want to clarify something and ask an additional question.

Even simple copy and paste would help me immeasurably at this time (while waiting for print/export). Is there anyway that can be done on the search panel, or say, on the list of cross-references listed when you use passage guide. (As in: use passage guide for Isaiah 15-16 and be able to copy the 8 lines of scripture addresses using copy and paste function).

Thank you for being helpful.

Sharon

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191864#Comment_191864

Great questions, Sharon!

David Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191863#Comment_191863

When I talked with tech support this week I was told that print/export would not be available until next year, but it should be available within one year.

Since you are working on it as I type, my question is - can you give me a little better time handle than 'within one year'?

I'm not sure where customer service is getting their information. Generally speaking, we avoid providing such estimates, as they are nearly always wrong (just look at some of the older forum threads). That said, while I wouldn't necessarily disagree with the estimate you have been given, I wouldn't want to narrow it down, either. It is, however, my top priority, at present.

Sharon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191867#Comment_191867

David,

It was not customer service, it was tech support, which told me that.

To me, it equates with trading in a fabulous Lexus RX330 for a newer (and supposedly more luxurious) model - only to find out, after purchase, that it does not have any sound system in it and that, although Lexus promises me they will eventually get it installed for me, they will not give me an estimate of time less than one year.

It has come to my attention that Logos gave a particular quarter of the year as to 'when' for windows. Why is that information not available to those with a Mac?

Surely you must have meetings with your employers and surely the topic of 'how long' must be discussed. I am not asking you to give me a promise, just the information that you must know, that you must think, that you must be working toward - your best guess.

Sincerely,

Sharon

David Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191892#Comment_191892

To me, it equates with trading in a fabulous Lexus RX330 for a newer (and supposedly more luxurious) model - only to find out, after purchase, that it does not have any sound system in it and that, although Lexus promises me they will eventually get it installed for me, they will not give me an estimate of time less than one year.

While we don't plaster notices of "our software doesn't yet do X" all over our website, we do try to be open about its capabilities. If you feel that the our product is not worth the price you paid because of missing features, customer service will be happy to provide you with a refund.

It has come to my attention that Logos gave a particular quarter of the year as to 'when' for windows. Why is that information not available to those with a Mac?

While we do have such a page (http://www.logos.com/4/missingfeatures), you'll also note that the estimates for most items on this page have been revised multiple times (and I have little doubt that they will continue to be revised).

Furthermore, I have observed that no matter how tentative a public estimate is, if we miss it, we end up with angry users. Given the choice between users who are upset because I won't provide information that I don't have and users who are upset because they feel that I lied, I choose the former.

Surely you must have meetings with your employers and surely the topic of 'how long' must be discussed.

Bob (our CEO) periodically visits my office. If he asks how long its going to take to finish, I tell him I don't know. If he provides two potential dates, I always say it will be closer to the later one.

I am not asking you to give me a promise, just the information that you must know, that you must think, that you must be working toward - your best guess.

I understand that this can be frustrating, but I really don't know how long it will take to finish this feature. I can, however, answer the much more interesting question, which is, "how far along are you?"

Very late yesterday afternoon, this came out of the printer on my desk:

There are still a number of problems that need to be addressed and additional features that need to be made available—I don't know how long it will take to address those. I also didn't know when I started work yesterday morning (let alone at the beginning of the week) that I would have a physical piece of paper to show for my work at any point this week. Software development is like that, sometimes.

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/192031#Comment_192031

To me, it equates with trading in a fabulous Lexus RX330 for a newer (and supposedly more luxurious) model - only to find out, after purchase, that it does not have any sound system in it and that, although Lexus promises me they will eventually get it installed for me, they will not give me an estimate of time less than one year.

While we don't plaster notices of "our software doesn't yet do X" all over our website, we do try to be open about its capabilities. If you feel that the our product is not worth the price you paid because of missing features, customer service will be happy to provide you with a refund.

[

I would think the importance of being able to use the software becomes more and more necessary if someone is a full time Bible teacher. I'm not but given the pastors and teachers that have purchased Logos and they still are missing very basic features that they REALLY NEED makes your offer of a refund very fair. I would hope Logos would honor that and think they will because they are a company and have always been one that wants satisfied customers.

Sam Chong

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191892#Comment_191892

Since Day 1, I have been looking for the Print function on Logos 4 for Mac! I was (still am) really disappointed that it is missing as I need to use the feature for my assignments. For this reason, I frequently return to Logos 3. But what surprises me that it is only now that the subject is brought up on the forum as I have been searching for the topic for a long time. Well done to those who have raised the issue and the most pertinent questions.

God bless.

BTW, this is my first posting.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/194702#Comment_194702

Since Day 1, I have been looking for the Print function on Logos 4 for Mac! I was (still am) really disappointed that it is missing as I need to use the feature for my assignments. For this reason, I frequently return to Logos 3. But what surprises me that it is only now that the subject is brought up on the forum as I have been searching for the topic for a long time. Well done to those who have raised the issue and the most pertinent questions.

God bless.

BTW, this is my first posting.

Welcome to the forums, Sam. This issue has been complained about since Day 1. And yes, Logos knows we users were upset by their decision to defer the printing feature to a later version, not have it in Logos 4 from the beginning. They mistakenly thought it was a feature that not many people were using anymore in this day and age. But it has been finished for the Windows version as of 4.1 and it's awesome, so you will be very happy when they finish porting it over to the Mac, the work for which is underway now.

Searching for things on the forums is hit or miss. The built-in search function on the forum software is not very good. Google does a much better job. See http://wiki.logos.com/Using_the_Forum#Searching_the_forum_using_Google

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191892#Comment_191892

Surely you must have meetings with your employers and surely the topic of 'how long' must be discussed. I am not asking you to give me a promise, just the information that you must know, that you must think, that you must be working toward - your best guess.

Sharon,

I'm not a dev but I'd bet that they shy away from even providing this level of "guesses" because of their past experience getting nailed to the wall for being wrong...

that's just my guess

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/194944#Comment_194944

Surely you must have meetings with your employers and surely the topic of 'how long' must be discussed. I am not asking you to give me a promise, just the information that you must know, that you must think, that you must be working toward - your best guess.

I'm not a dev but I'd bet that they shy away from even providing this level of "guesses" because of their past experience getting nailed to the wall for being wrong...

I was a software developer for 11 years. It's a high-pressure job. It was hard enough coming up with estimates of when we'd finish a certain task for our managers (when you're doing something you've never done before, you have very little idea how long it's going to take; you have to come up with brand new solutions and all kinds of unforseen problems can come up). Having them hold us to our estimates was hard too. Pulling all-nighters wasn't uncommon when trying to meet goals we'd set weeks before when we were in the dark. I'm trying to imagine how much worse the pressure would have been if we had to tell the paying public how long we thought something we were working on was going to take -- it's inconceivable that we ever would have given out those sorts of guesses to the public. Logos is wise to keep certain things private to protect their employees' health and morale and keep them from burning out.

Sam Chong

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/194714#Comment_194714

Thanks, Rosie.

Sam

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/194951#Comment_194951

Hi all,

If anything, I have to give Sharon credit for stating her position clearly and not backing down. She continues to ask one question-when? And it is probably because her work is dependent on the function she needs to use in Logos software. I don't think how hard dev's work, although true, is a suitable answer for her question. I think because she was offered a refund by David and if she is willing to accept it, then Logos should honor it. If anything she sounds like a long time Logos user and good customer and so deserving of support and quality treatment.

Cameron Watters (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195119#Comment_195119

She continues to ask one question-when? And it is probably because her work is dependent on the function she needs to use in Logos software. I don't think how hard dev's work, although true, is a suitable answer for her question.

Just so everyone is clear: David's point (and, I suspect, Rosie's) is that the question is essentially unanswerable, at least in the way it is asked. We're not being obstinate; we're being honest.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195126#Comment_195126

Just so everyone is clear: David's point (and, I suspect, Rosie's) is that the question is essentially unanswerable, at least in the way it is asked. We're not being obstinate; we're being honest.

Cameron,

I think that came through clearly....much appreciated. I'm not a software dev, but I work in an industry with humgeous deadlines sometimes...I help design and build aircraft....and when things are hot...they are HOT! No slowing down...

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195131#Comment_195131

Hi Robert and Cameron,

To me, you see this differently than I do and perhaps, Sharon (out there) and it is so simple again, from my view point as a user. Logos either needs to deliver a service (that has been paid for), tell when it might be delivered or refund money. Your comments are one-sided and so are mine. [:D] Hey, we ladies who are extremely under-represented on the forums "gotta stick together".

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195119#Comment_195119

If anything, I have to give Sharon credit for stating her position clearly and not backing down. She continues to ask one question-when? And it is probably because her work is dependent on the function she needs to use in Logos software.

I don't think how clearly Sharon is stating her question, or how persistent she has been in asking it, has anything to do with her not getting a definitive answer she can live with. The question of "when?" is not answerable any more clearly than has been done for her already.

I don't think how hard dev's work, although true, is a suitable answer for her question.

My point was not how hard devs work but that they have no idea how long it's going to take to do something they've never done before. So giving an estimate for when something is going to be finished is next to impossible. It is virtually always going to be wrong. As a developer, you just keep plugging away at it and get it done as soon as you can. Having people ask questions about when it's going to be done is more likely to slow down your progress. Of course Marketing likes to know when it's going to be done so they can plan their roll-out and all of that. But they just have to get used to the fact that things slip internally from estimated finish dates. It happens all the time in the industry. Customers, however, are less understanding than other departments within the same company. They tend to get angry and stop trusting the company if the company gives them an estimated date which the developers have no idea whether they'll be able to hit or not. Some companies choose not to give a random date, as it doesn't help anyone. Others usually tend to give target dates and miss them all the time and get slammed in the press for slipping. Which is better? I dunno. Either way it seems customers are not satisfied.

Note that it's easier to give an estimate for producing resources because they done that over and over and there's a basic formula based on how many pages and how complex the text is (how many cross references per page and such), subject to some possible uncontrollable circumstances such as the publisher being a pain about the terms of the contract.

But developing features is not so cut-and-dried. It is exploring into new territory every time. Lewis & Clark had no idea who long it would take them to get to where they were going. They just kept going until they got there.

[EDIT]

Logos either needs to deliver a service (that has been paid for), tell when it might be delivered or refund money.

They've already said they can't do #1 or #2. Sharon has been offered a refund. It's up to her if she wants to take it. You continuing to come to her defense and insist on Logos coming forth with #2 which they cannot do is not helping Sharon any, even though you mean well by joining her in solidarity.

Hey, we ladies who are extremely under-represented on the forums "gotta stick together".

I'm a lady too, but I've gotta say the guys are right this time. It isn't a gender thing. It's that I've had experience in software development so I know where Logos is coming from on this.

[/EDIT]

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195148#Comment_195148

Rosie,

I am not Sharon but somehow I "found" my way to this thread. Your statements are brilliant and full of information, Rosie, but if I were Sharon and I am not, I would be taking up the offer for the refund. The only one who has supported her in any way is me. And, if you knew me, you would know why. Eventually, this devolves to a business decision.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195152#Comment_195152

Your statements are brilliant and full of information, Rosie, but if I were Sharon and I am not, I would be taking up the offer for the refund.

I see no contradiction between those two statements warranting a "but" between them. I can give good answers and her best option could still be to ask for a refund. I wasn't trying to convince her or anyone else otherwise. I'm sorry if you felt that wasn't giving good support, but anything else would have been lying to her. More and more people showing solidarity with her against Logos would just have ended up with the same result in the end, so I didn't see any point in it, though perhaps it would have made you feel better, being the lone voice supporting her. And for that I offer you my apologies. Perhaps I should have stayed out of it entirely. You still would have been the only one supporting her, though. But maybe it wouldn't have felt like there were quite so many people ganging up on you. [:)]

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/191892#Comment_191892

David,

It was not customer service, it was tech support, which told me that.

To me, it equates with trading in a fabulous Lexus RX330 for a newer (and supposedly more luxurious) model - only to find out, after purchase, that it does not have any sound system in it and that, although Lexus promises me they will eventually get it installed for me, they will not give me an estimate of time less than one year.

It has come to my attention that Logos gave a particular quarter of the year as to 'when' for windows. Why is that information not available to those with a Mac?

Surely you must have meetings with your employers and surely the topic of 'how long' must be discussed. I am not asking you to give me a promise, just the information that you must know, that you must think, that you must be working toward - your best guess.

Sincerely,

Sharon

Logos wanted to make sure they got their product out in October. As one using many of the alpha and all the betas I can say they have come very far and while a truly equitable version would be best... By releasing a fairly functional version they likely have got numerous people reporting bugs that might have taken a long time to track down. I do not know when we will have app parity but from what I have read things are moving much faster on the mac side than the windows side. You might receive a guess but i would think they are very gun-shy on that unless it;s only a week or so off. Now I want the sound system and dual climate controls but I am happy to have the AM radio and heating a/c. While i understand your point, I'd rather have a car that needed work than no car at all.

-Dan

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195173#Comment_195173

Your statements are brilliant and full of information, Rosie, but if I were Sharon and I am not, I would be taking up the offer for the refund.

I see no contradiction between those two statements warranting a "but" between them. I can give good answers and her best option could still be to ask for a refund. I wasn't trying to convince her or anyone else otherwise. I'm sorry if you felt that wasn't giving good support, but anything else would have been lying to her. More and more people showing solidarity with her against Logos would just have ended up with the same result in the end, so I didn't see any point in it, though perhaps it would have made you feel better, being the lone voice supporting her. And for that I offer you my apologies. Perhaps I should have stayed out of it entirely. You still would have been the only one supporting her, though. But maybe it wouldn't have felt like there were quite so many people ganging up on you.

The "but" was serving as a different kind of coordinating conjunction than an "and" serves and it stil makes sense to me. So, if I could edit the "but" out and just put a semicolon, perhaps, that would work better. The point I was making is in the last sentence of that post; it is all about business. And I have not felt as if "there were quite so many people ganging up on" me. I am not the focal point in this thread. If one were to study my posts for the past eight years in the Logos newsgroups, one could conclude I jump in threads to help out people in any way I can if I share their viewpoint. Sometimes I feel as you stated, "perhaps I should have stayed out of it entirely." I think I am done with this thread and this post was just to clarify a few words and ideas, Rosie.