Logos, Please do Something
Comments
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Michael Huffman said:
Let's fix it!!! I agree.
Good [:)] - but I would emphasis the 'us'. And in order that I and others can at least try and 'fix' your customers problems, we need to understand what specifically the problems are, and interact directly with the person experiencing the problem. Often posts can degenerate into a pantomime "Oh yes it does", "Oh no it doesn't", and threads describing unknown problems from unknown persons are most likely to degenerate in this way. If you're not already doing so, encourage your customers to post directly to this forum - and hopefully, together, we can 'fix' their problems (and if we can't, at least encourage Logos to do so).
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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MJ. Smith said:
If Logos staff took a day off for twiddling thumbs they would meet the request of the title.
No one accused Logos of "twiddling" their thumbs. But noone here can deny that there are continual repetitive problems that have not been fixed. I guess the main problem of people is the speed. Granted, it is faster than pulling the book off the shelf, yes, but when with every update the performace is more sluggish? There is a problem.
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
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Mark Barnes said:Michael Huffman said:
Let's fix it!!! I agree.
Good
- but I would emphasis the 'us'. And in order that I and others can at least try and 'fix' your customers problems, we need to understand what specifically the problems are, and interact directly with the person experiencing the problem. Often posts can degenerate into a pantomime "Oh yes it does", "Oh no it doesn't", and threads describing unknown problems from unknown persons are most likely to degenerate in this way. If you're not already doing so, encourage your customers to post directly to this forum - and hopefully, together, we can 'fix' their problems (and if we can't, at least encourage Logos to do so).Thanks, Mark (your videos are awesome, by the way). I have encouraged them to do it. I also train Logos, but many of the problems are frustrations with speed, to which I do not know that any can fix in the forum. That is definitely at code issue. That is their fristration.
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
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edited out because I should not have said it.
Michael Huffman said:I know a user, a user since the 1.6 days, that his software gets slower with each update. He has contacted CS, to no avail, so he depends on the forum. And as such, will post an ocassional objection.
I am not belittling anyone's difficulties running the software. But performance issues are almost exclusively an issue of hardware or configuration problems. (You can bring your computer to a screeching halt just by adding two virus apps.) Some people have woefully slow internet access or are trying to run Logos 4 on their Packard Bell. I still have my copy of Logos 1.6 and the box it came in. But the computer I ran it on is long gone.
Does your friend post complaints about problems he never personally has? If everybody started reporting each other's problems, it would appear the software would have many more flaws than are true. Hmm, you might be on to something here, Matthew.
Michael Huffman said:And you liken it to Matthew 18:15
Many keep stating Logos should be a non-profit ministry yet they refuse to give Logos the courtesy of a private one-on-one per Matt 18:15 .
The only Biblical account I know of where someone intervenes between people with a problem and the person responsible to solve that problem was Absalom. 2 Samuel 15:2-6
Michael Huffman said:My suggesstion to you Matt, that if you cannot deal with the true objections that many others have voiced, then you not respond to them.
I think I just did, "deal with it", that is.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Yes I agree I purchase Logos 4 plat back last Jan dumped a lot of money into logos on a six month time frame. At first the software was unusable I do mean unusable which points to it not being ready for prime-time today I enjoy the software and it has become my main program for bible study. I know the thought it isn't a buggy as other software (but in fact in many ways it was worse) you couldn't use it out of the box the application hung took too long to toggle through the bible etc. Of course now it is fine and meets my expectation but the first couple of months were hell to say the least. It is ok to have bugs we expect this but in a truth at first Logos 4 was little better than a beta. For the future I think it would be a wise decision not to launch a future application so fast or at the least wait until the core functionality is working without flaws tha being said I am writing mainly from a quality control opinion Logos 4 is worth the money and an essentail tool I feel for bible study as well as a study into the ancient world in general.
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Matthew C Jones said:
I always wondered why the adjective "good-will" was ever needed in conjunction with the title "Ambassador." Now I know.
Michael Huffman said:I know a user, a user since the 1.6 days, that his software gets slower with each update. He has contacted CS, to no avail, so he depends on the forum. And as such, will post an ocassional objection.
I am not belittling anyone's difficulties running the software. But performance issues are almost exclusively an issue of hardware or configuration problems. (You can bring your computer to a screeching halt just by adding two virus apps.) Some people have woefully slow internet access or are trying to run Logos 4 on their Packard Bell. I still have my copy of Logos 1.6 and the box it came in. But the computer I ran it on is long gone.
Does your friend post complaints about problems he never personally has? If everybody started reporting each other's problems, it would apear the software would have many more flaws than are true. Hmm, you might be on to something here, Matthew.
Michael Huffman said:And you liken it to Matthew 18:15
Many keep stating Logos should be a non-profit ministry yet they refuse to give Logos the courtesy of a private one-on-one per Matt 18:15 .
The only Biblical account I know of where someone intervenes between people with a problem and the person responsible to solve that problem was Absalom. 2 Samuel 15:2-6
Michael Huffman said:My suggesstion to you Matt, that if you cannot deal with the true objections that many others have voiced, then you not respond to them.
I think I just did, "deal with it", that is.
He has posted, but many people do not post for fear of receiving reactions like I receive from you! Furthermore, Matthew 18 is in the context of the Church not in business of people having legitimate problems. What I meant by "not being able to deal with" is that this forum needs to be a place where people can voice problems and your comments from the start were sarcastic and uncharitable and completely unnecessary. So what I was saying is that if you cannot be kind and gracious in your responses, then dont respond.
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
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Michael Huffman said:
I know a user, a user since the 1.6 days, that his software gets slower with each update. He has contacted CS, to no avail, so he depends on the forum. And as such, will post an ocassional objection
Has he (whoever that may be) posted a complete description of his problem along with the pertinent log files?
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Jack Caviness said:Michael Huffman said:
I know a user, a user since the 1.6 days, that his software gets slower with each update. He has contacted CS, to no avail, so he depends on the forum. And as such, will post an ocassional objection
Has he (whoever that may be) posted a complete description of his problem along with the pertinent log files?
Hey Jack,
Good to hear from you. I cannot be sure, Jack, the nature of his post. I know he contacted customer service many, many times and they keep wanting to blame hardware; primarily video RAM. I would understand that if it never ran well, but it did and now it doesn't.
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
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Matthew C Jones said:
I always wondered why the adjective "good-will" was ever needed in conjunction with the title "Ambassador." Now I know.
Really? Is that sarcasim how you answer everyone's question? Pity!
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
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Michael Huffman said:
Really? Is that sarcasim how you answer everyone's question? Pity!
Ok. I apologize for that one. It was out of line. We are brothers and I ask your forgiveness. [W]
If I go to a medical doctor complaining I am ill but do not give the doctor some specific complaints as to what is wrong with me, it will take the doctor a lot longer to help me. Only Daniel the prophet was able to interpret the king's dream without being told what the dream was. The rest of us need a clue.Michael Huffman said:I cannot be sure, Jack, the nature of his post. I know he contacted customer service many, many times and they keep wanting to blame hardware; primarily video RAM. I would understand that if it never ran well, but it did and now it doesn't.
Just suppose your friend's problem really is a hardware problem. Should Logos do anything other than tell him the truth? Just a couple weeks ago NetFlix service went offline. Amazon serves up 100% of NetFlix streaming movies. The new cheap subscription rate garnered more business than even Amazon anticipated. The servers were overloaded and crashed. (We are talking about a 3OC fiber optic network.) Amazon had to place light filters in the optics and increase the throughput 6-8x the normal 3gb per second. Amazon made hardware upgrades to meet the new requirements. Point is: I bet you Logos knows what they are talking about when they say he has a hardware problem.Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:Michael Huffman said:
Really? Is that sarcasim how you answer everyone's question? Pity!
Ok. I apologize for that one. It was out of line. We are brothers and I ask your forgiveness.
If I go to a medical doctor complaining I am ill but do not give the doctor some specific complaints as to what is wrong with me, it will take the doctor a lot longer to help me. Only Daniel the prophet was able to interpret the king's dream without being told what the dream was. The rest of us need a clue.Michael Huffman said:I cannot be sure, Jack, the nature of his post. I know he contacted customer service many, many times and they keep wanting to blame hardware; primarily video RAM. I would understand that if it never ran well, but it did and now it doesn't.
Just suppose your friend's problem really is a hardware problem. Should Logos do anything other than tell him the truth? Just a couple weeks ago NetFlix service went offline. Amazon serves up 100% of NetFlix streaming movies. The new cheap subscription rate garnered more business than even Amazon anticipated. The servers were overloaded and crashed. (We are talking about a 3OC fiber optic network.) Amazon had to place light filters in the optics and increase the throughput 6-8x the normal 3gb per second. Amazon made hardware upgrades to meet the new requirements. Point is: I bet you Logos knows what they are talking about when they say he has a hardware problem.No Problem, Matt. As I said, I do not know the nature of the post, nor how detailed; that was not shared with me. All I do know, is that he called CS and told them of his performance problems (it takes about 15-20 to actually open the resource from the PG when you click on it. Now, that is faster then pulling from the shelf and fliiping pages, but in computers that is slow). They told him that he had a hardware problem with the video RAM. That very well could be the case, the computer is about three years old and so the video may not be up to par. Our concern was that a update came out (I think 4.1) and the problem seemed to be fixed. But when the next minor update came, it went back to the same problem. CS cannot answer why it did fine at 4.1 and not with the next update. [:S]
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
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Michael Huffman said:MJ. Smith said:
If Logos staff took a day off for twiddling thumbs they would meet the request of the title.
No one accused Logos of "twiddling" their thumbs. But noone here can deny that there are continual repetitive problems that have not been fixed. I guess the main problem of people is the speed. Granted, it is faster than pulling the book off the shelf, yes, but when with every update the performace is more sluggish? There is a problem.
Michael,
First let me say that I think I know where you're coming from. You want Logos to look attractive to potential new buyers, but there are a number of things that seem to be giving Logos a black eye right now. You want that changed. That's a good thing, and in some ways I feel the same way. (Though my approach, based on daily perusal of these forums, is to tell people that these issues for the vast majority of users are either non-existent, or very minor - provided one meets or exceeds the minimum system requirements for the software, and is willing to invest some time learning how to use it.)
But it looks like this discussion is starting to generate a bit of frustration. Here's how I think it can get back on track, and since you're the original poster (OP), I'm making the suggestions to you.
I think that what MJ was saying, and what I thought when I first started lurking in this thread, is that "...Please do something" is pretty non-specific; "something" what something? What is it you'd like Logos to do, exactly? Obviously Logos is doing something, 4.2 was just released. But they are not doing the 'something' you think they should be doing.
Some of the answer to that has come out through the course of the thread, mostly in the number of problems and bugs that seem to crop up. But let me push that farther, and this was MJ's challenge too: name some specific issues for Logos to deal with. Not all problems are software problems, not all alleged bugs are actually bugs. Lay out your cards, and let's sort this hand out.
Speed Issues: You mention speed in the form of sluggish performance above. I don't have speed issues with Logos, neither on my desktop, nor my (>$600) laptop. My experience with updates is that they do not make "the performance more sluggish." Others with hardware much more robust than mine do have speed issues. But the speed issues are found at different places in the software: notes, searching, start-up time, indexing, etc. Which specific speed issues are the ones you'd like Logos to focus on. As I said, in my experience, these are all non-issues; for others a problem in just one area can make the software unusable. Which speed issues are you seeing as issues for the folks you know (and/or potential customers)?
The other issues are problems and bugs. Problems: yes a lot of problems get reported on these forums. Many, many, many of them are user error issues, sometimes in the form of doing things the programmers never anticipated which cause a crash or corrupt a database. Another problem is that L4 doesn't do some of the things L3 did (tho some of those are planned), or does differently. A few other 'problems' surface from time to time, some of them a bit dubious (IMHO). Many of these problems are really design issues, that for some are problems, and for others are enhancements.
Which problems are you thinking about here? Can you be specific?
Bugs are another issue, and these are legitimate issues, yet as has been pointed out, 1) most of these are uncovered in the beta program (where they belong), 2) the vast majority of users never experience a true bug, and 3) some things reported as bugs, aren't bugs but results of misusing the program in an unanticipated way for which an error trap was not implemented (arguably a bug, but not in the same category in my mind).
Which bugs are you thinking about here? Can you be specific?
Please understand that I'm not trying to do anything here beyond clarifying what the issues are for you, and what suggestions you are trying to make to the Logos team. The lack of specificity can feel to some of us like mere complaining (and there's a lot of that in these forums and I'm one that gets pretty sick of it), though I don't think you're doing that. I think you're wanting to make a positive contribution. Yet, to do that, I think it would be most helpful, if you lay out just what it is you want Logos to do. Make a top 10 list (or top 20, or top 100 list).
Post that list here, or start a new thread in the Suggestions forum, or divide your list into separate categories and post one suggestion thread for each category. This would invite feedback about the issues and uncover those areas where there is misunderstanding (it's not really a problem), a work-around (it's a problem, but we can deal with it for now), a work-flow issue (L3 worked like that, but L4 does it this way), or a genuine issue that must be addressed immediately.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Thank you.Michael Huffman said:No Problem,
Michael Huffman said:All I do know, is that he called CS and told them of his performance problems (it takes about 15-20 to actually open the resource from the PG when you click on it. Now, that is faster then pulling from the shelf and fliiping pages, but in computers that is slow). They told him that he had a hardware problem with the video RAM. That very well could be the case, the computer is about three years old and so the video may not be up to par. Our concern was that a update came out (I think 4.1) and the problem seemed to be fixed. But when the next minor update came, it went back to the same problem. CS cannot answer why it did fine at 4.1 and not with the next update.
Now these specifics help me understand and sympathize. Fifteen minutes is unacceptable performance, and a three year old computer should be able to handle anything Logos 4 throws at it. I have run L4 on 5 year old laptops & desktop. Customer Service/Tech Support is still probably correct in saying it is a hardware issue.
I have been very vocal in my support of the "cloud syncing" in Logos 4. This is one on those rare situations where I wish the program did not sync. When I upgrade from IE7 to IE8 I had a horrible time web browsing. So much so I rolled back to IE7 until Microsoft got IE8 fixed. With syncing, the user does not have that option. Is it possible the coders reintroduced a fixed bug from using code prior to Ver 4.1?
I don't know the hardware your friend is running but if the computer uses shared memory for the video can he allocate more memory?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Thanks, Richard
Very, Very constructive.
To be honest (because as I have said many times, I do not have many of the issues that are spoken about here, thankfully), I suppose I am reacting to what I am reading plus my customer problems.
Notes locking up
Taking 15-20 seconds to open a resource from PG
An incomplete product released (although that is being slowly fixed)
Printing, locking up
Then the major frustration for me was when I went to order my update for Learn Greek and Hebrew with Logos, to find out that the files are corrupted. And I am thinking, "We have been doing this how long?"
I guess I should just sit back and wait for Logos to fix the problems, I know they are trying. And just make sure that my customers get their problems on the forum. Thanks alot Richard. I just get some threads email to me from people at Logos that some may not see. But I love and there is nothing out there that can even come close to it. Even it you went to Bibleworks for the original language studies, many of the language features of Logos are not in Bibleworks, plus there are no reference works. So nothing comes close to the power of Logos.
Can anyone tell me if Logos has fixed the corrupted files on the new Learn Greek and Hebrew DVD's?
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
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Matthew C Jones said:
I don't know the hardware your friend is running but if the computer uses shared memory for the video can he allocate more memory?
I dont believe so. And I want to say that his video RAM is about 300 MB. He just believes (and he and I are Pastor's not computer programmers) Logos could do the same thing that it now does, but needing less horses under the hood.
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
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Michael Huffman said:
Notes locking up
Taking 15-20 seconds to open a resource from PG
An incomplete product released (although that is being slowly fixed)
Printing, locking up
Then the major frustration for me was when I went to order my update for Learn Greek and Hebrew with Logos, to find out that the files are corrupted. And I am thinking, "We have been doing this how long?"
I guess I should just sit back and wait for Logos to fix the problems, I know they are trying. And just make sure that my customers get their problems on the forum. Thanks alot Richard. I just get some threads email to me from people at Logos that some may not see. But I love and there is nothing out there that can even come close to it. Even it you went to Bibleworks for the original language studies, many of the language features of Logos are not in Bibleworks, plus there are no reference works. So nothing comes close to the power of Logos.
Can anyone tell me if Logos has fixed the corrupted files on the new Learn Greek and Hebrew DVD's?
I can verify the problem with notes. As regards the rest, I can't speak since (1) I don't use the passage guide (2) I don't print from Logos. I probably shouldn't (and can't say anything regarding the Learn Greek / Hebrew files either since using them would be like going back to 1st grade to learn the alphabet. I also never used BibleWorks so I can't address its vaunted superiority in original languages other than to say that I'm dubious since the only things I can't seem to do with Logos are things for which I can't think of a proper algorithm to accomplish.
Let me say one thing as a general matter. Perhaps some problems are the result of Logos attempting to keep tooooooo mannnnnny balls in the air at the same time. I find the number of prepubs being added on a regular basis astounding. Fortunately a good many of them are in areas in which I have little or no interest (I already have subscribe to far too many prepubs). Having so many works in the pipeline, however, must take its toll in human resources. I think the answer might be to slow down a tad.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Matthew C Jones said:
Now these specifics help me understand and sympathize. Fifteen minutes is unacceptable performance, and a three year old computer should be able to handle anything Logos 4 throws at it. I have run L4 on 5 year old laptops & desktop. Customer Service/Tech Support is still probably correct in saying it is a hardware issue.
I have a 10 yr old computer that I very seldom use (though I may use it for a time when I send my 2 yr old computer in for some problems such as the DVD player going south). Even on my 10 yr old computer, while it's slow, it isn't that slow. I think you must have some other problem. I can hardly believe that you simply got a bad copy of Logos. Either you get what everyone else gets or the file is corrupted -- either in transmission or by something which happened on your computer. Have you scanned for viruses? Did you try reinstalling?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
Either you get what everyone else gets or the file is corrupted -- either in transmission or by something which happened on your computer. Have you scanned for viruses? Did you try reinstalling?
No, honestly did not think about that since he downloaded off the interenet. I just spoke to him and had him "tweek" some things. Turn the internet to off, turn off the vusual cues, for example. I will see if that helps at all. Like I said, the confusion on our part was when 4.1 came out, it seemed to double his performace (in fact a thread was written thanking Logos for the update). But then when teh next minor update happen, more of the same.
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
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Michael Huffman said:
Taking 15-20 seconds to open a resource from PG
Back in 4.0c days I had one resource take 9 minutes (not a typo) to open, so I can sympathise. In fact, in the spirit of "let's fix it", I worked really hard to help Logos get it sorted (for entirely selfish reasons, you understand [;)]).
Anyway, whilst it still isn't megafast, a combination of fixes from Logos and workarounds by me have solved that problem. Some of the lessons I learned from that experience have helped others since.
So I guess my point again is to say that working with Logos does work, and makes a better product for everyone.
Michael Huffman said:Printing, locking up
I've never seen this, except when I tried changing my paper size to 20 times the usual to bypass the 100 page limit! Printing appears pretty stable for most people. Perhaps we could investigate a specific issue though.
Michael Huffman said:I guess I should just sit back and wait for Logos to fix the problems
I'd encourage you not to do that. The more people that work with Logos to improve the product, the better it will be for everyone (and the more sales you'll make!).
Michael Huffman said:Can anyone tell me if Logos has fixed the corrupted files on the new Learn Greek and Hebrew DVD's?
They still don't work in Winzip, but they're fine with the default unzipping program that comes with Windows. To be fair, we don't know whether that's a bug in Winzip, or with whatever zipping program Logos used.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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The assumption that software can not break hardware is incorrect. If logos has 2 rogue processes pushing the cpu to 100% for 48 hours will cause the machine to overheat - I have a warped computer to prove it.
I have used logos on 3 different computers and it is slow on all 3. The post that insist logos runs quickly on a 10 year old laptop is very difficult for me to believe - nothing developed in the last 3 years runs quickly on a 10 year old laptop. On my macbook, which had 2 gb of ram, it would regularly lock up. I am now using a windows machine with a quad core processor, 12gb of ram and a 128gb ssd, and although it doesn't lock up, it is slow - even stranger is the performance only slightly increases when installed on this as opposed to a machine with half of the specs, which leads me to believe it is a result of programming.
Those that insist it is fast, well, i don't know what to say. Is it fast compared to firefox, word, photoshop even? Perhaps it is fast enough - for you? But objectively, I think anyone that uses a computer all day knows it is slower than other programs with equivalent job duties.
It is obvious from the replies that we are dealing with two types of people here - honest people who really just want answers to real issues, and those who seem to be just defending logos.
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Michael Dixon said:
I have used logos on 3 different computers and it is slow on all 3. The post that insist logos runs quickly on a 10 year old laptop is very difficult for me to believe - nothing developed in the last 3 years runs quickly on a 10 year old laptop. As I said, I have a quad core processor, 12gb of ram and a 128gb ssd, and it is slow - even stranger is the performance only slightly increases when installed on this as opposed to a machine with half of the specs, which leads me to believe it is a result of programming.
You are obviously referencing my post since I'm the only one who mentioned a 10 yr old computer. Let's dispose of two errors in your post:
(1) I didn't say L4 ran fast. Quite the contrary, I said it was slow on my old computer. BTW: It's actually over 10 yrs old
(2) It isn't a laptop. It's a Gateway tower. At the time I got it a contact of mine commented that I had bought a rocket. perhaps that's why its operation is still tolerable even though slow.george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Michael Dixon said:
The assumption that software can not break hardware is incorrect. If logos has 2 rogue processes pushing the cpu to 100% for 48 hours will cause the machine to overheat - I have a warped computer to prove it.
I'm sorry about your warped computer, but it should have a shutdown mechanism to protect it from overheating. That's certainly the case on all PCs I've owned or operated in the last several years. If nothing else it protects you from broken fans.
Michael Dixon said:But objectively, I think anyone that uses a computer all day knows it is slower than other programs with equivalent job duties.
I'm not sure I have any other software with 'equivalent job duties' to Logos. (I'm not disagreeing that sometimes Logos is slow, I just think it's sufficiently unique to not be comparable. I doubt, for example, you'll have any other application that will search text files as quickly as Logos - though you'll probably have applications that will perform other features more quickly than Logos does. But what does that prove?)
Michael Dixon said:It is obvious from the replies that we are dealing with two types of people here - honest people who really just want answers to real issues, and those who seem to be just defending logos.
And someone else could argue that it is obvious from the replies we are actually dealing with two other types of people - helpful people who want to fix the problems they see, and those who just seem to want to complain. That's probably unfair - but then so was your comment. What is 'obvious' is in the eye of the beholder.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Matthew C Jones said:
In terms of lines of code? Yes. Logos 4 dwarfs mortgage processing programs.tom collinge said:Minuscule?
Good morning Matthew,
Once again, I state that you are speaking without knowing all of the facts. We had single modules that exceed 60,000 lines of code, and we had tens of thousand of modules. I would not be surprised that just the department where I work had more employees than the entire staff of Logos. Was our program multilingual - yes, did the program have notes - yes (collection notes, customer service notes, ...notes), were they searchable - yes. Security of who can see what data, let us not even go there.
Matthew C Jones said:My little bro works for a company that moves
There is a big difference "moving" data and "processing" data.
Logos stated that they have 1400 bugs, and that is a lot of bugs. If they can find the source of two bugs a day, correct them, and test them, it will still take them over two years to correct all of the bugs that they currently know of.
There is a difference in the management style between Logos and where I worked. While we did role out various features as soon as we could, we did not have Bob's "Code first, optimize later" approach. Optimization and testing were part of the design process.
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Michael Huffman said:
Thanks, Richard
Very, Very constructive.
To be honest (because as I have said many times, I do not have many of the issues that are spoken about here, thankfully), I suppose I am reacting to what I am reading plus my customer problems.
Notes locking up
You're welcome. I hope we can help get some of these things resolved.
I've not seen Notes lock up Logos. What I have seen is that notes will freeze and Windows will report that Logos is not responding. In XP and before, that meant the program had crashed. In Vista and Win7 it means, uh-oh, this could take a while. My son, e.g., had this happen a few times. I told him to just wait a few minutes and it would resolve. It did. Could that be the 'lock up' you're talking about?
If so, it's still not acceptable, but it's a function of the Notes module trying to do too much at once. This has been brought up many times, and we hope that Logos is working to identify just what is going on here, but they don't report to us (unless they want to). We do know that a part of this issue is the way WPF displays typed characters, but we don't know if this is the whole issue, nor whether it's simply Logos' way of using WPF that's the problem.
Michael Huffman said:Taking 15-20 seconds to open a resource from PG
I think Mark Barnes responded to that one. It's not something I've ever seen myself, and with others this issue has been resolved by recent releases. If that's not the case, if it's an ongoing issue for you or someone you know. it might be helpful for that person to post their issue here, along with their logs. Maybe we can help (maybe not).
Michael Huffman said:An incomplete product released (although that is being slowly fixed)
Logos acknowledged this from the beginning. The release of L4 was designed in such a way that it did not overwrite L3 (AKA Libronix), so that users could continue to use Libronix as these missing features were being developed. But most (and I am one of them) found an incomplete L4 better than a complete L3, and never looked back.
Michael Huffman said:Printing, locking up
I've not heard of this either. Please post this along with logs (if possible) as a bug.
Michael Huffman said:Can anyone tell me if Logos has fixed the corrupted files on the new Learn Greek and Hebrew DVD's?
I don't believe the files were corrupted. I think, as Mark does, that the compression routine is incompatible with some 3rd party compression programs (like WinZip, which I also have). However, I was able to decompress all but 3 files in the Hebrew Video section. I'm downloading it again, and if it decompresses properly, I'll report back.
EDIT: Just downloaded it again, and there are 2 files that won't decompress with WinZip (15.0 (9334)): Hebrew10-Prepositions.mov and Hebrew11-Alphabet.mov. But both old files (from the DVD-ROM) seem to work just fine for me.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Michael Huffman said:
And I want to say that his video RAM is about 300 MB.
I have 1GB of video RAM and have no bogging down with Logos (UNLESS I am also running streaming video at the same time, and then the sluggishness only lasts a few seconds.) I still don't know why the video could cause it to hang so long.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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A couple of quick comments prompted by Richard's most recent reply:
a) A Logos developer mentioned in another thread (http://community.logos.com/forums/t/26968.aspx ) that they did speed up opening resources in v4.2. This definitely makes layouts come up quicker - the more resources in a layout, the more the improvement in opening the layout. Maybe it applies to the passage guide, too.
b) Apparently the printing was substantively enhanced in 4.2 also (http://community.logos.com/forums/t/26922.aspx ). I haven't had the opportunity to try it yet, but perhaps this will fix the issues folks have been referring to.
Donnie
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Michael Dixon said:
12gb of ram and a 128gb ssd, and although it doesn't lock up, it is slow - even stranger is the performance only slightly increases when installed on this as opposed to a machine with half of the specs, which leads me to believe it is a result of programming.
I would look at your computer's security settings for slow L4 start-ups and at your other TSR (start folder) programs for conflicts. Many times when I had performance degradation or crashes it was traced back to a misbehaving toolbar app or similar. Sometimes I live-boot Flak Linux from a CD with a skeleton set of tools to enjoy optimal performance. I know this is not an option with Logos or Win based proggies.
And we should not forget regular tune-ups of the registry. (Just don't fall for the spyware installing scams.)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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tom collinge said:
you are speaking without knowing all of the facts. We had single modules that exceed 60,000 lines of code, and we had tens of thousand of modules.
I suppose I know as many facts about your company as you know about Logos. Where I come from we call 60,000 lines of code "spaghetti code"
[;)]tom collinge said:I would not be surprised that just the department where I work had more employees than the entire staff of Logos.
You make a good case for Logos coders being more efficient.
Lil' Bro. also updated banks to Y2K compliance. All I will say is bank data is not as secure as the banks tell you it is. Someone can always break thru, given enough time.tom collinge said:Security of who can see what data, let us not even go there.
Amazon also processes more data than than you can comprehend.tom collinge said:There is a big difference "moving" data and "processing" data.
tom collinge said:There is a difference in the management style
So we are back to the fashion disagreements I mentioned. Management style is not a program bug. If people have a genuine problem with the software there are many willing to help if they will only state the problem. If people just want to tell Bob how to run his company, they are wasting their time. Just my personal opinion....
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Thanks for the pointers. I think i have started to get my head around this whole deal. I was searching for alternatives and remembered seeing a program called accordance a while back - doing a search for accordance and logos pulled up a forum comparing the two, most comments coming from those with both. Apparently Logos is a library tool, and Accordance is a research tool - at least that is what i get from it.
Perhaps I (or all of us) was expecting Logos to be something it was never intended to be. Accordance apparently runs lightning fast and doesn't have the bugs of logos, and is geared more toward research and study - more of a tool - but it also doesn't have the resources. Logos is a digital library, with additional features that can be used as a research or study tool, but it is like hammering with a screwdriver. The users who have both say they use both, but use logos more often when a resource is only available on it. Accordance has some good Bibles, language tools, commenteries and journals, so I think I am going to give it a shot as that is all i need for my school. If Logos is better, why wouldn't I use it again?
Accordance is only for mac, but it can show how another direct competitor runs its business and business model - heres the link for reference:
http://www.accordancebible.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4912
I think this guy posed the same question on logos' forums, so you will get different answers there. Anyways the comments in here are getting kind of nasty, so I am ending it here. Didn't mean to offend anyone, really, I was just posting my honest experience and wanted to know what the deal was.
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Matthew C Jones said:tom collinge said:
you are speaking without knowing all of the facts. We had single modules that exceed 60,000 lines of code, and we had tens of thousand of modules.
I suppose I know as many facts about your company as you know about Logos. Where I come from we call 60,000 lines of code "spaghetti code"
You brought a smile to my face with your comment on spaghetti code. I used to love to write a program in Basic then compile it. I got a book on C and felt like throwing it against the wall since he made a comment that in Basic you can't avoid spaghetti code. All he did was to show that he didn't understand Basic since you could write procedures in Basic the same as you can in C -- all you needed to do was "Gosub" and "Return." The beauty of Basic was that you could run the uncompiled program to test it before compiling it -- incremental development.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Matthew C Jones said:
And we should not forget regular tune-ups of the registry
Good reminder, Matt. Thanks.
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
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Michael Dixon said:
Perhaps I (or all of us) was expecting Logos to be something it was never intended to be. Accordance apparently runs lightning fast and doesn't have the bugs of logos, and is geared more toward research and study - more of a tool - but it also doesn't have the resources. Logos is a digital library, with additional features that can be used as a research or study tool, but it is like hammering with a screwdriver.
Certainly Logos is different from Accordance and Bibleworks, and I guess is therefore not for everyone. But I think your tool vs library analogy is not quite right (simply because Logos has more tools than Accordance, not just more resources). I don't know if it helps, but if I can extend your metaphor, software like PC Study Bible is a layman's tool, Bibleworks is a professional tool, Accordance is a tool-bag, Logos is a tool-chest.
I guess if you just want to hang a picture on the wall, you're going to get frustrated lugging around a big old tool chest. It could be seen as a bit cumbersome when all you want to do is something relatively simple. But on the other hand, you may prefer the occasional inconvenience for the benefit of knowing that you have access to pretty much everything that you need, and that you've got room in your tool-chest for yet more goodies to come.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Well, I'm not a logos fanboy, but I have to say after reading this entire thread (third Bible Study of the day starts in 20 minutes) that I am happy I too got one of the three or four completely working versions.
I don't think it's slow. I use it on two laptops, both fairly new, but one of them has integrated graphics, not even a graphics card, and it runs just fine on it. If I ask it to do a lot, it takes a second or two to do it, no more. The only slowness to me is the initial startup time. That doesn't annoy me, because I only turn it on in the morning once and then run the program all day long. Otherwise this slowness issue is a mystery to me. It runs just fine.
I've never seen the bugs that plague some people, though perhaps I don't push it too hard, and I don't do beta.
I am also grateful for the quick help that is shown in these forums, and after reading these five pages of this forum, I honestly think it seems like there is some grumbling going on without any specific complaint (I'm an RSV guy, so I should have said 'murmuring''' ;-) ). If there were a specific complaint then I honestly think it would be fixed, but as it stands here, all I see is murmuring.
Let me repeat, I'm not a whitewashing yes man bound and determined to defend Logos at any cost. I'm just a very happy customer whose ministry has been enhanced by this amazing tool who is looking forward to the 12 days of Christmas sale...
Your brother in Christ,
Mike
Windows PC - Android Phone - Surface Pro 4
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Michael March said:
Let me repeat, I'm not a whitewashing yes man bound and determined to defend Logos at any cost
So, what's wrong with you? Who gave you a right to be so satisfied? [:D] I find a few problems, but their numbers seem to be decreasing. Hopefully they will eventually reach the point where "And Then There Were None" (You need to be an Agatha Christie reader for that).
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Not a good Logos day.....
The MacArthur Study Bible crashes 1.5 on my iPod Touch. Blows it right back to the Apple menu!!
I think the betas and RCs need to be tested more before release. Perhaps, have a larger RC soft release before making them gold.
I hope that Logos starts coding more for speed and stability than for expanded feature sets.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
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Michael Huffman said:
they keep wanting to blame hardware; primarily video RAM
This would be a reasonable diagnosis as it has been the underlying cause of poor performance a number of times. What specifically do you think the appropriate response of Logos should be? It appears that Logos gave a diagnosis and the user has chosen not to do the corrective action.
However, I am getting concerned about the tone of this thread - we don't need it to break out into a brawl. It seems to me that there is little to disagree about -
- everyone agrees that there have been performance problems
- the performance has generally improved
- some particular features seem to slow performance for those who otherwise have satisfactory performance
- some individuals have configurations that have never had satisfactory performance
- Logos customer service is working with the unfortunates who have bad performance
- Logos development is continuing to work on performance as the number of features increase
as for the bugs:
- whether they approve or disapprove of stage at which Logos 4 was released, everyone agrees that the initial release was disappointing in performance, features and bugs ... and they could chose to continue to use Logos 3, move to Logos 4, or some mixture of the two as fit their needs.
- bugs continue to be prioritized and fixed - some more quickly than others; the option to use Logos 3 still exists
- individuals finding what they perceive to be bugs have an obligation to seek out information to ensure that they are using the system correctly to get the results they want. If they are using the system correctly, they have an obligation to document the bug so that Logos can recreate and repair the problem
- Logos has the responsibility to prioritize the repairs based upon (among other things) the severity of the problem and the number of people likely affected.
The biggest item in dispute appears to be the tone and specificity with which one communicates one's problems on the forums.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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]Where I come from we call 60,000 lines of code "spaghetti code"
Tom - where I come from we call it a small subsystem. To me "spaghetti code" refers to code that was written and/or maintained without any thought to structure and design. As a young programmer I had to take over a severe case of spaghetti code where the original programmer was unable to follow his own logic to finish the program. My employer made an analyst come in and entertain my son while I finished it up on Saturday.[:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Tony Thomas said:
Not a good Logos day.....
The MacArthur Study Bible crashes 1.5 on my iPod Touch. Blows it right back to the Apple menu!!
??? ???
"Not a good Logos day ..."? I must disagree. It is a GREAT Logos day!
The 1.5 release of the iOS app (i / Phone, Pad, Pod Touch), is a huge milestone in the development of the app. All previous releases used a stand-alone code base that worked with a special format of the resources (different than the logos4 format used in L4Win). This release, as has been discussed in some detail on the iPhone/IPad forum, is based on the L4Win/L4Mac code base which will provide a foundation for all the features that users want on the mobile platform. Also, given that Apple's App development model constrains a developer's ability to do open beta programs (which I understand Logos is working to address), the stability of the 1.5 release is quite impressive. I suppose my expectations are colored by 30+ years in the high-tech engineering and development. I know how hard it is to get a stable release when there is so much variation in users' hardware and software. Keep in mind that there are four major hardware releases of the iPod Touch, as many iPhone releases, and at least one for the iPad. There are many different releases of iOS as well (I have a 1st generation iPod Touch running iOS 3.13). Logos has also made significant changes in their back-end server environment to support the new iOS release with the support for the logos4 native resource files.
I have experienced the crash of the Logos App during the install of the ESV Study Bible - which is one of my favorite resources. Dave Dunkin, Logos, was able to reproduce the bug and communicate the issue on these forums within a few hours of the 1.5 release. Very impressive. I have absolute confidence that this bug will be addressed in a timely fashion (timeliness determined by Logos ...).
The Logos user-base has very high expectations, and I am including myself. However, the open, humble attitude of Logos staff, from Bob (CEO), to development staff like Dave Dunkin, and many others I've seen in action on the forums or in e-mail/telephone interactions over the last few years, is an inspiration to me. I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and focus on what has been accomplished, instead of focusing on what is missing (features, performance etc.).
What is little understood by many of the Logos customer base, is that the huge success of the Logos4 release a year ago has undoubtedly launched Logos into a VERY challenging season in Logos' corporate history. Managing hyper-growth is VERY demanding. And, I am very impressed in the way Bob (CEO) has humbly admitted the challenges the company has faced (and are still facing) and been very forthright in what they are doing to respond, and that the response(s) will take time. I have a lot of time for anyone or any company that is as transparent and humble as Logos - as demonstrated by the company Leadership (Bob, Dan and others).
To conclude, I am NOT a "Logos Fanboy" - whatever that means. The respect I have for Logos has been earned.
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Just read this thread today for the first time. Although an infrequent poster and a moderate user, I really want to add my voice to that group of people who have had no significant problems from day 1 with Logos 4. I spend 6-8 hrs of every day on my computer but don't find Logos runs any slower than the other programs I use. Apparently I've had the good fortune to have a configuration that worked smoothly, and I can understand how frustrating it must have been for those who didn't. But the problems referred to are not universal.
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David Royer said:
Logos slow? Yes. Logos buggy? Yes.
I guess I am not experiencing either of these issues. Though it does take L4 longer to load than L3, once it is up and running I find it runs very fast on my home and office desktops. Neither system is a high end system. However I did experience a considerable boost in performance when I doubled my memory from 2 gig to 4 gig and added discrete graphics vs integrated graphics.
As far as being buggy, I suppose the fact that I am not a Logos 4 "power user" may account for me not having that trouble. I don't do anything beyond basic study and sermon prep and tend to keep the same layout for both purposes. But I would like to propose one possible cause for many of the problems that some experience. As a part time computer tech it truly amazes me how often I work on systems for people who have so many processes and services running in the background that choke their systems ability to even perform standard functions such as checking email and browsing the internet. In addition many of the addons that cludge up their systems are usually not necessary. I recently worked on one system that had four different IE 8 toolbars installed. The same system had 168 malware infections so granted, it was an unusual case. But there are many systems that come with a lot of bloatware preinstalled not to mention the automatic update features of said bloatware and system. Even some of the darlings of the industry such as Norton and Macafee tend to include much more than is required to protect systems. Personally I use a top rated free security program that doesn't bog down my system and hog resources. (FYI - I have never had a virus using that program).
Before blaming Logos for releasing a substandard product, take the time to educate yourselves as to what is running in the background as far as services and processes. Then go the next step and find out what truly is necessary and what you can live without. Granted the users here tend to be more tech savvy from what I have seen. But I would suspect there are many who come here with complaints about L4 that could solve most of their issues just by cleaning up their systems and running only those processes that are absolutely necessary for the proper functioning and security of their systems. It is a lot less than the the software and hardware companies would have you believe.
That's my two cents worth for the day.
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MJ. Smith said:
What specifically do you think the appropriate response of Logos should be?
We are not asking for necessarily mili-seconds (we understand that it does alot), but 15-20 seconds has been agreed in this in this forum as too long.
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
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I agree my computer is being forced to index for 45 hours! This is insane. it seems my Logos has downloads every time a start it. I am not satisfied at all. I am not to ga ga over Logos to tell the truth this is not as good as everyone keeps claiming on this forum.
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Ingemar Woods said:
I agree my computer is being forced to index for 45 hours! This is insane. it seems my Logos has downloads every time a start it. I am not satisfied at all. I am not to ga ga over Logos to tell the truth this is not as good as everyone keeps claiming on this forum.
Ingemar, if you can describe your problem in a bit more detail in a new thread (see "How to ask for help" below), we'll see if we can help.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark,
Over the last few days I have been required to download large updates. Tonight it stated that it would take 46 hours . However, it completed and indexed in about 4 or so hours. I am running a 2 GB RAM, Anthlon X 2. I had some problems before but have had a lot of problems recently problems with excessive updates and indexing. I have the scholars silver. Any advice is appreciated. Thank you and God bless you.
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Ingemar Woods said:
Over the last few days I have been required to download large updates.
Logos updated to a new version (4.2), which also required a large resource update. This sort of very large update happens only rarely (two-three times a year?). If you turn automatic updates of (in Program Settings), then you could delay the install to a more convenient time. You'll still get notified the download is there, it just won't start downloading until you say so.
Ingemar Woods said:Tonight it stated that it would take 46 hours . However, it completed and indexed in about 4 or so hours.
Unfortunately, initial estimates of indexing are often woefully incorrect. The estimate does improve as the indexing goes on, however.
Ingemar Woods said:I had some problems before but have had a lot of problems recently problems with excessive updates and indexing.
If the problems reoccur, be sure to say so on the forum. I can't really comment without knowing the details.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Bob Schlessman said:
But I would suspect there are many who come here with complaints about L4 that could solve most of their issues just by cleaning up their systems and running only those processes that are absolutely necessary for the proper functioning and security of their systems. It is a lot less than the the software and hardware companies would have you believe.
That's my two cents worth for the day.
More like two dollars, O generous one.
My laptop has reached the point of 745mb left on the hard drive. Now while I could blame Firefox for creating a slow-poke browser (NOT!) I think I will offload a few dozen gigabytes of PDFs, and digi-cam folders.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I want to add my vote to the "satisfied user." I use Logos 4 in Windows and Mac (home and office, respectively) [and wish I could in Linux, though biblia.com is a great alternative]. I had experienced a great deal of trouble lately with my Mac version. It was incredibly slow and used memory like crazy (a full 1.5 GB after a couple of hours of usage)---not normal.
So I deleted my Logos folder in my Library folder and downloaded all of my data again. Granted, it took a whole day (only 9 hours, really) to do all of the updating and indexing. Not bad at all, considering how many book I have in there.
I don't mind updates... I keep reminding myself that they make my system more stable and add new features. The more the better, I say! Yes, it takes patience; the indexing process tends to hijack my computer.... but, when I do a search, a passage guide, or an exegesis of a long text (as I often do), I'm grateful for having to be patient with the whole indexing process.
Is Logos 4 perfect? No. I've never read or heard anybody making such a claim. Is it better than other software? Yes and no. It all depends. I've tried the other Bible software alternatives; although I liked them and grew to respect them greatly, I still prefer Logos. It's a wonderful piece of engineering.
Finally, the fact that the Mac developers have so ever nearly reached parity with the Windows version (I do run the beta channel) is absolutely praiseworthy (big hooray! for the Mac developers). Yes, it's expensive; but, when I show to my friends and co-workers what the software can do, and I see their reactions (and I remember my own reactions when I started using the software), I think every penny's been well spent.
Finally, a big thank you to all the advanced users in the forum who so generously help others with issues. They don't have to do it; so here are my thanks to each of you.
My two cents!
Benjamin
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MJ. Smith said:
]Where I come from we call 60,000 lines of code "spaghetti code"
Tom - where I come from we call it a small subsystem. To me "spaghetti code" refers to code that was written and/or maintained without any thought to structure and design. As a young programmer I had to take over a severe case of spaghetti code where the original programmer was unable to follow his own logic to finish the program. My employer made an analyst come in and entertain my son while I finished it up on Saturday.
MJ,
You are 100% correct (again), size does not equal spaghetti. The logic in our larger modules were very easy to maintain because they only did one thing, they read the master file, and then they passed this information onto the other modules so that the 100's of reports could be produced.
Wow, it is really really sad when a developer cannot follow his/her own code. I wondered if this person had heard of documentation? It does help (if it is correct. I had a saying, the only thing worst than no documentation is incorrect documentation.)
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In the industrial setting we always incorporated documentation within the code. Saginaw Steering Gear (Delphi) had learned the lesson the hard way. Many of their machines were built before WW2 and modified by many skilled tradesmen along the way without any blueprinting or documentation. So when "Bob" or "Dan" retired after 43 years, none of the new guys knew much about them. Management made sure the same thing did not happen with the robots and software.tom collinge said:Wow, it is really really sad when a developer cannot follow his/her own code. I wondered if this person had heard of documentation?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I'm along time Logos user going back to 1.* days & have to say how thrilled I am with ver 4 especially compared to Libronix 3.
Logos 4 is s much easier to use than v3 plus it's much quicker than opening stacks of books like I did when started preaching 30 years ago!!!
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