Logos 4 Bible Search Loses To Google? Really? A secular engine works best?

Dear Logos,

As much as it pains me to say it I find that when I need to search for a passage in the Bible, I turn to Google.

My apologies for unfaithfulness, and I fear I expose myself to the potential of temptation whenever I use that secular search engine, but I need to find Bible passages and it simply works best.

In L4, when I type in a few words that I know (or think) are in the passage, I get a seemingly endless list of references and passages with one or two of the words, but I usually cannot find the passage I seek.

In Google, they seem to have a way of putting the right passage at or near the top of the results page every single time. Even when my wording is off a bit.

Why?

Respectfully,
Steve

P.S. Yes, I have tried defining a "Collection" of Bibles and searching only those. Google still wins.

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Comments

T Gerold Castle

Steve,

Can you give an example of the type of search you're talking about? Perhaps it's the search string you're using? At any rate, some examples might be helpful.

Steve Brannon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200574#Comment_200574

Here is one...

I was hoping to find the passage where we are told we are not longer strangers and aliens.

I searched Logos, in a Collection I defined with only Bibles (I have 25 Bibles in this Collection). I get a list of passages (teasingly close with Eph 2:1 at the top), but nothing that immediately struck me as "that's it!"

I search Google, and Eph 2:19 is right at the top of the list. Google wins.

Later, I was hoping to find the passage that speaks of the body of the church in terms of a hand, foot, eye, etc. I search my Logos Bibles Collection for "hand eye foot" and get stuff first from the OT: Dt, Ex, Ps, and the list goes on of search results with one word found here, and one word found there, but I don't see what I'm looking for.

I search Google for the same string, "hand foot eye" and get 1 Cor 12:21 right at the top of the list.

Logos L4 0, Google 2.

I find this true time and time again.

Steve

Mike Binks

In L4, when I type in a few words that I know (or think) are in the passage, I get a seemingly endless list of references and passages with one or two of the words, but I usually cannot find the passage I seek.

When I typed "come to me" (with the quotes) in the window of the search bar. (Search ALL TEXT in ENGLISH BIBLES for)

I got quite a lot of hits but the all included 'come to me'.

I think that you are right though - if you type come to me in Google it priorities places where the words come to me are all together, then when they appear in the same piece and lastly when they appear separately. Most people don't get (or need to get) past the first stage.

It seems that Logos lacks this extra logic at the moment.

Wes Saad

When you search for a Bible passage in Logos, it will return every match from the Bible in canonical order. When you search in Google, it will return what it has trawled from other sites, ranked by order of most "significant" which is based more or less on how often it appears on various websites. Since Google's results are not canonical (nor comprehensive - it isn't trying to search the whole Bible and it would be difficult to use Google to find all matches in the Bible) and since the results are ranked by popularity, chances are better that your passage will be higher up in the search results.

I use Google for quick Bible searches when I don't remember the passage too well nor remember what translation I'm remembering. For everything else, I use Logos. To me, one big advantage of the comprehensive list is it may help me see other passages similar to the one I had in mind.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200606#Comment_200606

When you search for a Bible passage in Logos, it will return every match from the Bible in canonical order. When you search in Google, it will return what it has trawled from other sites, ranked by order of most "significant" which is based more or less on how often it appears on various websites. Since Google's results are not canonical (nor comprehensive - it isn't trying to search the whole Bible and it would be difficult to use Google to find all matches in the Bible) and since the results are ranked by popularity, chances are better that your passage will be higher up in the search results.

I use Google for quick Bible searches when I don't remember the passage too well nor remember what translation I'm remembering. For everything else, I use Logos. To me, one big advantage of the comprehensive list is it may help me see other passages similar to the one I had in mind.

excellent reply, Chris, thanks. I learned something.

Oh, by the way, our church sang about you last week in worship. We learned both about Christ, and you.

"Christ was born to-dayyyy

Chris was born to-day."

Just thought i'd let you know, you're gettin' around. [:P]

John Brumett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200609#Comment_200609

Why not try searching one version such as the KJV or just Top Bible such as the KJV, NKJV, NASV or NIV, ect. Try typing strangers aliens without any quotes and you will find that only 1 passage shows up in the KJV and that is Ephesians 2:12. Under the search icon try clicking match case instead of matching all word forms and you will find your search results narrowed. In the KJV try typing hand feet eye and only one passage will show up and that is 1 Corinthians 12:21. If your not sure if it is foot or feet try typing hand eye feet OR foot and your passage will show up. Also choose aligned view in you selection.

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200606#Comment_200606

When you search in Google, it will return what it has trawled from other sites, ranked by order of most "significant" which is based more or less on how often it appears on various websites.

This is partially true. Google also uses a statistical algorithm when searching. As in, looking for the highest percentage of destination websites when searching for a particular set of words, these are listed first (after paid advertising of course).

For Logos to match this behavior, statistical data would need to be gathered from user searches. Don't know if that would go over too well...

Steve Brannon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200612#Comment_200612

Why not try searching one version such as the KJV or just Top Bible such as the KJV, NKJV, NASV or NIV, ect. Try typing strangers aliens without any quotes and you will find that only 1 passage shows up in the KJV and that is Ephesians 2:12. Under the search icon try clicking match case instead of matching all word forms and you will find your search results narrowed. In the KJV try typing hand feet eye and only one passage will show up and that is 1 Corinthians 12:21. If your not sure if it is foot or feet try typing hand eye feet OR foot and your passage will show up. Also choose aligned view in you selection.

Great suggestions. Just what I was looking for and hoping to discover.

Mark Barnes

P.S. Yes, I have tried defining a "Collection" of Bibles and searching only those. Google still wins.

Steve,

Can I just clarify that you're doing a Bible search, not a Basic search? If you do a Bible search in all Bibles for no longer strangers and aliens, then Ephesians 2:19 will be found and returned right at the top of the results.

James Matichuk

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200619#Comment_200619

I use both searches (Logos & Google) for various passages. One of the challenges of growing up in an era of many different Bible Translations, I don't always know which translation has the wording I know. And often my mind knows some of the verse in one translation with a word or two thrown in from a different translation (especially when I have memorized a verse in several translations).

So when I don't know the exact wording, I turn to Google, which often can pull up my verse (A top bible search does the same, but as you and others observe, often you get too much data to sort through).

If I am using Logos, I tend to refine my search based on where I know the verse I am looking for is. If I know it is in 1 Corinthians, I would search 'hand foot eye' in 1 Corinthians only, or in the NT. I find this sort of search will not only pull my passage up, but depending on what I am searching for, show me how often the theme shows up in a particular book, which is quite valuable for exegesis.

When I just need to pull a verse quickly for an email or something, I still might go to Google, but if I am reading for understanding, Logos is generally the better option.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200627#Comment_200627

Steve,

if I was searching Logos for a verse that I thought I knew part of a phrase or set of words...this is how I'd do it...I used your example and put in:

strangers WITHIN 4 WORDS aliens

This was the result....(and in less than a second)

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200601#Comment_200601

Hi Steve I will admit Logos isn;t my favourite search engine for the bible, ironically enough my oldest Bible Online Bible Mac does the best job for searches in quickness and fuzziness. But you can;t expect a Bible Search engine to return your results in any order other than Biblical order, otherwise it would be confusion, almost like having a dictionary not defining words in alphabetical order but in the order of word popularity. If you have some idea where it is you should have selected New Testament, then you would have only gotten NT results. Or if you made a custom range you could have searched only Paul's letter.

-Dan

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200631#Comment_200631

and if you try Robert's search in "Grid" mode you can see visually which translations have the exact words you are looking for and hovering over other translations show what words they use instead (I have a different set of Bibles because I have a different "Top Bibles")

Graham

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200623#Comment_200623

P.S. Yes, I have tried defining a "Collection" of Bibles and searching only those. Google still wins.

Steve,

Can I just clarify that you're doing a Bible search, not a Basic search? If you do a Bible search in all Bibles for no longer strangers and aliens, then Ephesians 2:19 will be found and returned right at the top of the results.

This is a good point and worth illustrating. In a Basic Search, you can still search Bibles, but Logos will not take into consideration verse markers. So in this case, Eph 2:12 comes up in the NRSV....

But the reason Eph 2:19 is not listed is that Logos results, because the results are given related to this paragraph of thought without regard to the versification. Yet you can see below that there are results in v19, but in Basic Search the results show differently than one might expect.

However, if I do the exact same search in the Bible Search, Logos is now only searching for each of those words within a verse. Therefore, Eph 2:19 is the top and only result for this search.

I hope that helps illustrate what Mark was saying,

Robert Mullen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200616#Comment_200616

This is partially true. Google also uses a statistical algorithm when searching. As in, looking for the highest percentage of destination websites when searching for a particular set of words, these are listed first (after paid advertising of course).

For Logos to match this behavior, statistical data would need to be gathered from user searches. Don't know if that would go over too well...

It goes even further than this. If you are logged in Google knows your past search history and factors that into your results. It also knows the order the links from its home page are clicked on and which one is clicked last the most number of times. They track an amazing number of context statistics that go way beyond what any single user has done. For that reason it is pretty hard to compete with Google in fuzzy searching (not just for Logos but for Microsoft and Yahoo.) Being the first in mind share from a search perspective has given them a wealth of statistics no other is going to match easily. That said, they will never match Logos for complicated syntax and morph searching or searching anything that is tagged richly. I do use Google when I am not exactly sure what I am looking for. I use Logos when I am confident and looking for very specific things.

I have programmed a fair amount in my life as well and can tell you first hand that fuzzy searching is pretty challenging. Searching for exact words, phrases, and precedence is easy. Even wild card searching is easily done. True fuzzy searches are all in the "artificial intelligence" of the system and are much more difficult. Maybe Logos should consider hiring or contracting someone with a background in this type of search to help them with their engine and statistics.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200601#Comment_200601

I was hoping to find the passage that speaks of the body of the church in terms of a hand, foot, eye, etc. I search my Logos Bibles Collection for "hand eye foot" and get stuff first from the OT: Dt, Ex, Ps, and the list goes on of search results with one word found here, and one word found there, but I don't see what I'm looking for.

I search Google for the same string, "hand foot eye" and get 1 Cor 12:21 right at the top of the list.

Interesting, I tried the same Google search, and 1 Corinthians 12:21 was nowhere to be seen (Exodus 21:24; Mark 9:43–50; and all kinds of medical websites).

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200706#Comment_200706

I confess that I too usually turn to Google for fuzzy search for Bible verses, and it gives me the answer I'm looking for nearly 100% of the time, and quickly. Logos 3 used to have a fuzzy search capability and it was pretty good; I rarely needed to go elsewhere. I find that without it, L4 lacks something basic that I need in a Bible search engine quite frequently. I've voted for a return of fuzzy search on UserVoice. You can too!

Steve Brannon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200710#Comment_200710

Thanks to all who have jumped in to help explain the results (or lack of) that I have experienced.

I have discovered several things.
1) You can do a BIBLE Search (why had I not seen that option on the search panel before???) Doh!
2) You can use search criteria such as "WITHIN 4 WORDS". How you discover this stuff is a mystery to me.
3) When doing a Bible Search, you can search NT only. I knew how to do this in Libronix, but just never discovered it in L4.

The Search capability in L4 is looking brighter ;-)

Steve

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200742#Comment_200742

The Search capability in L4 is looking brighter ;-)

Glad to hear it!

We all learn from each other!

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200749#Comment_200749

by the way...here is the hand eye foot search...

Jeffrey Lacine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200631#Comment_200631

How do you discover search commands like "WITHIN 4 WORDS"? Is there a list or a menu somewhere?

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200758#Comment_200758

http://wiki.logos.com/Search_HELP

http://wiki.logos.com/Detailed_Search_Help

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200758#Comment_200758

How do you discover search commands like "WITHIN 4 WORDS"? Is there a list or a menu somewhere?

It would be nice if Logos had included those in the help file, no?

You can see them on this wiki page: http://wiki.logos.com/Search_HELP

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/200652#Comment_200652

It goes even further than this. If you are logged in Google knows your past search history and factors that into your results.

Yes, this becomes quite obvious if you use YouTube regularly.

They track an amazing number of context statistics that go way beyond what any single user has done.

This, in no small part, comes as a result of having pretty much the entire internet cached on their server farm. Having all the information in their possession allows constant indexing (not unlike L4 does, I would imagine). Although this does work against them as well, there is a fair number of times that I have done a search on a few words only to find that when I get to the web page they are no longer relevant.

As Logos moves more and more towards the 'cloud', and gets to the point where most of the searching is done there, duplicating the the type of results one can get from Google will become easier. Much easier in Logos as a matter of fact, what with only 10,000 to 20,000 resources, and a few hundred thousand users, accuracy and performance should be outstanding.