Stewardship & Sermon Prep

I am just curious, how long is the average time one spends on sermon prep. I teach chapter by chapter so when I study I focus on the entire chapter. In doing this I found that I sometimes get overwhelmed with the amount of commentary material that is available for me to go through. I was kinda wondering if you guys read through all your commentaries in one day or if you break them up throughout the week. It's easy to get overwhelmed with the amount of resources we have, I was just wondering how some of you have dealt with that. Personally, I have not found a good way, which means some of my resources don't get read. In reality I end up wasting my resources,and become a bad steward. I just wanter to hear how other people have dealt with this issue.

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Matt Hamrick

Generally Blair, I do not open my commentaries until the end of my sermon prep. I generally have the sermon worked out before I open a commentary. Now that being said, there are some scriptures I do not pretend I can interpret correctly and I may open my commentaries early to see what others are saying. But generally by the time I open my commentaries the sermon is basically done. I have been told and I hope that when I am done learning the original langauges I will have no need for a commentary anymore. My commentaries mostly get read in my own personal Bible study and not in sermon prep.

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203202#Comment_203202

I follow Bob Utley's method of hermeneutics for sermon prep. So I also don't look at my commentaries until the end, but I desire to look at all my relevant resources. Otherwise, I feel that I am wasting what God has blessed me with.

Bill Shewmaker

I am just curious, how long is the average time one spends on sermon prep. I teach chapter by chapter so when I study I focus on the entire chapter. In doing this I found that I sometimes get overwhelmed with the amount of commentary material that is available for me to go through. I was kinda wondering if you guys read through all your commentaries in one day or if you break them up throughout the week. It's easy to get overwhelmed with the amount of resources we have, I was just wondering how some of you have dealt with that. Personally, I have not found a good way, which means some of my resources don't get read. In reality I end up wasting my resources,and become a bad steward. I just wanter to hear how other people have dealt with this issue.

Blair,

Many, many years ago in one of my "sermon" classes at the undergrad level, the professor taught us to "spend 1 hour in preparation for each minute of preaching time..." That would include reading the text multiple times to "get the flow" of the text as well as cement it into our mind. It would include working up an outline (hopefully from that Scripture time) and finally digging into the commentaries. That was the "old" way of doing things when we didn't have Logos or Libronix to be a repository for our libraries. Now, the study time could be considerably less, but ultimately be more productive because we wouldn't be searching through books that have no bearing on our Scripture choice or topic (and we wouldn't be wasting time trying to remember which book, what page, what paragraph, etc., that we had highlighted). You still need to spend the maximum amount of time just reading the passages over and over and over...until you are saturated in them and they in you...

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203202#Comment_203202

when I am done learning the original langauges...

In this life?

...I will have no need for a commentary anymore.

And how will 'being done learning the original languages' help you with understanding the Jewish or Hellenistic background to the text?

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203210#Comment_203210

My sermon prep consists of these steps

The first reading cycle
1. Read the book in a single sitting. Read it again in a different translation, hopefully from a different translation theory
  (1) word-for-word (NKJV, NASB, NRSV)
  (2) dynamic equivalent (TEV, JB)
  (3) paraphrase (Living Bible, Amplified Bible)
2. Look for the central purpose of the entire writing. Identify its theme.
3. Isolate (if possible) a literary unit, a chapter, a paragraph or a sentence which clearly expresses this central purpose or theme.
4. Identify the predominant literary genre
  (1) Old Testament
          a) Hebrew narrative
          b) Hebrew poetry (wisdom literature, psalm)
          c) Hebrew prophecy (prose, poetry)
          d) Law codes
  (2) New Testament
          a) Narratives (Gospels, Acts)
          b) Parables (Gospels)
          c) Letters/epistles
          d) Apocalyptic literature
The second reading cycle
1. Read the entire book again, seeking to identify major topics or subjects.
2. Outline the major topics and briefly state their contents in a simple statement.
3. Check your purpose statement and broad outline with study aids.
The third reading cycle
1. Read the entire book again, seeking to identify the historical setting and specific occasion for the writing from the Bible book itself.
2. List the historical items that are mentioned in the Bible book
  (1) the author
  (2) the date
  (3) the recipients
  (4) the specific reason for writing
  (5) aspects of the cultural setting that relate to the purpose of the writing
  (6) references to historical people and events
3. Expand your outline to paragraph level for that part of the biblical book you are interpreting. Always identify and outline the literary unit. This may be several chapters or paragraphs. This enables you to follow the original author’s logic and textual design.
4. Check your historical setting by using study aids.
The fourth reading cycle
1. Read the specific literary unit again in several translations
  (1) word-for-word (NKJV, NASB, NRSV)
  (2) dynamic equivalent (TEV, JB)
  (3) paraphrase (Living Bible, Amplified Bible)
2. Look for literary or grammatical structures
  (1) repeated phrases, Eph. 1:6,12,13
  (2) repeated grammatical structures, Rom. 8:31
  (3) contrasting concepts
3. List the following items
  (1) significant terms
  (2) unusual terms
  (3) important grammatical structures
  (4) particularly difficult words, clauses, and sentences
4. Look for relevant parallel passages
  (1) look for the clearest teaching passage on your subject using a) “systematic theology” books b) reference Bibles c) concordances
  (2) look for a possible paradoxical pair within your subject. Many biblical truths are presented in dialectical pairs; many denominational conflicts come from proof-texting half of a biblical tension. All of the Bible is inspired, and we must seek out its complete message in order to provide a Scriptural balance to our interpretation.
  (3) look for parallels within the same book, same author or same genre; the Bible is its own best interpreter because it has one author, the Spirit.
5. Use study aids to check your observations of historical setting and occasion
  (1) study Bibles
  (2) Bible encyclopedias, handbooks and dictionaries
  (3) Bible introductions
  (4) Bible commentaries (at this point in your study, allow the believing community, past and present, to aid and correct your personal study.)

These steps are laid out by Bob Utley in his you can study your bible book... One I highly recommend

The problem I am having is in reading cycle 4.e. I have a- lot of commentaries, so when I check the believing community, I seem to get overwhelmed with the amount of info. My question is how are you guys breaking down the info in order to not make it overwhelming? For me I just have not been checking all my resources. I just hate to have a bunch of resources that I dont use. Are you guys able to efficiently go through "reading cycle" 4?

J.R. Miller

I teach chapter by chapter

Hi Blair, I taught using this same approach in my church plant for the past 5 years. I have a 6 part video series I did showing what I do each day and how I use Logos in the process. You can see the intro and links to each part HERE.

Jerry Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203231#Comment_203231

I teach chapter by chapter
Hi Blair, I taught using this same approach in my church plant for the past 5 years. I have a 6 part video series I did showing what I do each day and how I use Logos in the process. You can see the intro and links to each part HERE.

Blair and others I want to chime in on this topic. Joe's video's are the best for what it is you are trying to do. I use his method exclusively now and even shared it with other Pastor friends of mines. I think if you want to know how to use L4 for sermon Prep. work use Joe's model and it will bless you greatly in your studies, as it has bless me already.

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203231#Comment_203231

Thanks Joe,

I started the first video, have you put together collections of different translation theories yet?

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203241#Comment_203241

@Jerry, glad I can bless you brother!

@Blair,

have you put together collections of different translation theories yet?

No sure what you mean by "different translation theories"....

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203256#Comment_203256

For example you have the kjv nkjv nasb as word for word theory translations. You then have a dynamic equivalent theory, which tries very hard to go word for word but when the word does not convey the thought it does not follow the manuscripts, that would be something like the Niv, Tev, JB etc.. You then have the thought for thought thought, which are not concerned about word for word, but trying to convey the thought from the greek or hebrew, you will find that in the Nlt, lt, Cev etc..

Watching the rest of your video, it seemed that it was not necessary as long as you saved your layout with the three translation theories.

Friedrich

I am just curious, how long is the average time one spends on sermon prep.

I tend to spend 20+ hours. Sometimes that is too much with all I have to do in addition. In some ways, it's like you can "never" be done researching. And if that is the case, then I also must find a good time to "stop" and pray that God will still speak his truth through me, because I also have real people to teach, lead, encourage, visit, etc., teams to form/guide and all of that is "necessary." My default is still to study too much at the expense of the others, although in the last year I have worked to shift that tendency.

As for reading through commentaries: I am not always in favor of reading through them all, nor do I think that is a sign of poor stewardship. Here are things I keep in mind, and/or do when coming to my commentary study:

If I know particular authors have a respected commentary (even if I don't agree with them), they are consulted first.
Sometimes I consult the less cluttered ones first (like a Tyndale or BST) to get a general overview of flow of thinking. I especially like those scholars that deal with the bigger picture of the text, not just the trees (RT France is one of those guys; Witherington does too)
I consult/skim others to see if they offer alternative view points and how well founded they are. Sometimes my own opinion changes, sometimes mine is confirmed.
I love uncovering those who deal with a part of the text that others over look.
I like those who draw out application (more than nice stories, I mean they apply the theology to how it impacts our life)
The more thorny or obscure the theology, the more I wade through commentaries until I uncover authors who really wrestle with a topic, rather than just gloss, or even ignore it. I add my own prior research as you all mentioned above: reading and rereading, seeing connections within the book of study itself, as well as wider context of scripture. This often informs me of what I want /need to look for in commentaries. I won't read every verse of every commentary.

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203269#Comment_203269

I see Dan, so you are using your resources, but some of them you just end up skimming, rather then reading through them fully.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203273#Comment_203273

well, . . . yes. It depends on what they are offering. I have wayyyy too many to read anyway (I am not the king of library count, but I have many commentary sets).

You have to be shrewd and selective in what you read. What I DON'T mean is that I don't read carefully. I just carefully read what is relevant to my study at that point. Why go over the same ground I have read elsewhere (unless he says it better or adds to it?) Why go over something I have thoroughly researched and don't need more input. Why muddy up the waters (to use a current experience) about "Michael and the Dragon" when I am wrestling with who the women is of Rev 12 or what import that "great sign" is. (Not that there is no relation, but if the arguments get too detailed, I may miss or forget earlier points. Of course, clippings/tags help there, but you can quickly amass a lot. It is more an artform than science to me, that is balancing specific smaller scale quests and seeing how it all hangs together.

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203277#Comment_203277

With so many commentaries how do you keep from double reading? Is it via the skimming process, or do you have a different method?

Matt Hamrick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203214#Comment_203214

when I am done learning the original langauges...

In this life?

...I will have no need for a commentary anymore.

And how will 'being done learning the original languages' help you with understanding the Jewish or Hellenistic background to the text?

fgh I attend the undergrade school at a seminary. I am considered a softmore and learning Greek and Hebrew. Seminary friends (meaning graduate level students) tell me when I ask why I need to learn the original language simply say so I can interpret the text without any commentary. If you know the meaning of the original word it negates the need for commentary. Now as far as Jewish and Hellenistic background that is other classes that deal with History and surveys. And yes I will learn the original language in this life. Or so I hope so.

Matt

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203279#Comment_203279

With so many commentaries how do you keep from double reading? Is it via the skimming process, or do you have a different method?

Blair, you can hardly avoid "double reading." Yes it involves skimming, to a degree. It involves gaining a feel for what author/s has a reputation for dealing well with the issues, and placing a premium on going to them and reading them. I "just know" some of them, but I also mark the little stars next to the commentaries in my PG for quicker reference. I will also take chances on "new authors" or series I am unfamiliar with. When I uncover something good, I will mark that in the notes section of the PG. E.g. "France pulls together the pericope and surrounding context well" or other comments.

In my current study, i ran across a few authors who identify "the woman clothed with the sun" as Israel, along with many scriptures. Some had very clear, uncluttered presentations (Bass was one). Once that perspective was down, I opened up other commentaries: ones with good reps, others I didn't know, etc. I would quickly look to see if someone said "the church" or "Mary" or "eve" and noted what their reasons were. If they said "Israel", i just moved on. I had covered that already.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203285#Comment_203285

Matt, knowing the original languages is a great advantage. But it hardly (for me) removes the need to consult commentaries. They are not very wise if they claim knowing Greek and Hebrew will solve hermeneutical problems. That skill will help you be more informed and do more of your own legwork, but not only (as you and others alluded to) will we be lifelong learners of that language, but knowing Greek and Hebrew often opens up more complexities to which I am always looking to more advanced scholars to help deal with them.

You will be in position to help more and understand more, but probably not be in a position to NOT be taught more, whether in person or through a book.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203210#Comment_203210

I say that I average between an hour and a half to two hours per minute in the creation of my sermons.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203290#Comment_203290

I say that I average between an hour and a half to two hours per minute in the creation of my sermons.

I preach two-three times a week (occasionally more often), so 8-10 hours per message is all I can afford. While more time would always be useful, my own experience is that the law of diminishing returns means 8-10 hours is actually optimum .

I'm not sure a time ratio is a helpful one. In my own preparation the first 5-6 hours will be making the sermon longer, whilst the last two-three will be making it shorter (i.e. the more time I spend in preparation, the shorter the sermon gets!).

Graham Owen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203311#Comment_203311

Like many others the time that I need or indeed have for sermon preparion varies, sometimes I have to cram because other demands take my time and balancing the time needed to prepare sermons with other pastoral responsibilities is often a challenge. When working on series I find that the introduction takes the most time but the rest tend to require significanltly less.

the more time I spend in preparation, the shorter the sermon get

This is something that I definitely find is true, when preaching in services where time is limited I need to spend extra time ensuring that I touch all of the key points. If I did keep records I would probably find that the shorter sermons require more hours per minute of preparation than the longer ones.

I also feel that it is important to keep a good balance between the study that I undertake for personal growth and that which is required for sermons. Some of my personal study will often get reused later in sermon preparation something that I believe is a result of the Holy Spirit equipping me to meet the future needs of the congregation.

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203311#Comment_203311

Generally, as I move verse by verse (chapter by chapter) through a book I have identified my "favorite" and most helpful commentators. Those are the ones that I read every word of. This generally comes toward the end, after my study has been complete.

I then move through my passage guide in a skimming fashion. Some commentaries I have learned will simply be unhelpful and I can skip them. Others I skim. Others, I find I need to slow down. I will usually slow down later on. I use the passage guide stars to mark out which ones I want to read and I take quick notes on which commentaries talk about what in the notes section.

I also stick collections of my favorite authors and journals in my passage guide so I can skim through those as well.

What I like about this method is that next time I come to the passage I have already done the work of skimming and summarizing my commentaries and I am able to quickly "recreate" my study by observing my saved passage guide.

Matt Hamrick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203289#Comment_203289

Matt, knowing the original languages is a great advantage. But it hardly (for me) removes the need to consult commentaries. They are not very wise if they claim knowing Greek and Hebrew will solve hermeneutical problems. That skill will help you be more informed and do more of your own legwork, but not only (as you and others alluded to) will we be lifelong learners of that language, but knowing Greek and Hebrew often opens up more complexities to which I am always looking to more advanced scholars to help deal with them.

You will be in position to help more and understand more, but probably not be in a position to NOT be taught more, whether in person or through a book.

Dan I understand completely what you are saying. I am not the one saying I will never need to consult commentaries. I have said "I have been told" by graduate level students and a couple professors and pastors when I ask the question about learning the original langauges they always say it negates commentary use. Also, it doesn't take knowing the original language to solve hermeneutical problems. It takes understanding hermeneutical rules and applying proper principles to interpret scripture. When all is done and completed with the hermeneutics, preaching, theology, language, history, surveys, and other classes I take will all tie together nicely to be able to interpret the scripture correctly without the use of a commentary. As I go forth, I am not saying I will never be taught anymore. I hope I am always in a position to learn, especially about Jesus.

Dan Sheppard

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203231#Comment_203231

I taught using this same approach in my church plant for the past 5 years.

So Joe, is that a PRAYER PLANT? [;)]

I am doing s study on Matthew. To begin with for a given week, I of course read the Bible. Concordia Publishing House has the Lutheran Study Bible, so I have that linked to my ESV.

Once the basics are established (what are we talking about today), I consult Lenski Commentaries, Concordia Commentaries, and the one by Craig Blomberg on Matthew. For special topics that arise (what is a Nazirite: how does it differ from Nazarene), I look at ISBE, dictionaries, and other reference materials. I have my Intralinears open, so I can check Greek words, plus I try to include on occasion, a chart showing a photo (church at Capernaum), a table (ancestry of Herod), a map (of Jerusalem during time of Christ), or other visuals.

I include a few questions intermittently, to inquire about how people feel about this and that.

One thing I learned from attendees, is that whatever I am teaching, THEY WANT TO KNOW HOW IT APPLIES TODAY.

When there are cross-references to other books of the Bible, I try to include several, including both OT and NT, plus something from the other 3 Gospels, if appropriate.

I have the people read the Bible lesson, the footnotes (Lutheran Study Bible), but I read a two to three-page handout I produce.

Sometimes I include an excerpt from "Luther's Works", the Book of Concord, or other Lutheran Doctrine. I am sure that others would use John MacArthur's commentaries, in the same fashion.

About half the people respond to visual aids, while the other half prefer the "nuts and bolts info".

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203208#Comment_203208

Blair,

Don't feel bad for not reading all of your relevant resources. Sometimes I find the nugget (s) I need during my word study. Sometimes the Bible itself gives me the outline and all I need are some relevant illustrations...AND sometimes I look at the explanation a commentary gives on a certain verse and that really gets the ball rolling for me to assemble the sermon I want. In the end, you're not wasting your resources, because one of these days, when you least expect it, you may end up finding what you need in one of them (and it will usually be a resource you probably didn't know you had). As to the time it takes for sermon or class prep, it all depends. It may take 1hour or 4hrs or maybe almost your entire week. If you're working on a particular sermon that you want to preach for a future occasion it may even take a month (s) working on and off on it. In the end, it's all to the glory of God (whether or not you use all your resources).

Blessings!

Douglas

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203231#Comment_203231

I teach chapter by chapter
Hi Blair, I taught using this same approach in my church plant for the past 5 years. I have a 6 part video series I did showing what I do each day and how I use Logos in the process. You can see the intro and links to each part HERE.

Hey Joe,

Do you have any video's of you actually putting your sermon together. On the last video it showed a little bit...

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203451#Comment_203451

Do you have any video's of you actually putting your sermon together. On the last video it showed a little bit...

That is all i have right now.... what specifically would you like to see?

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203536#Comment_203536

Do you have any video's of you actually putting your sermon together. On the last video it showed a little bit...
That is all i have right now.... what specifically would you like to see?

Just how you take the information you gathered, and put it together in a sermon. I have seen so many different ways that people do a sermon. Some just do an outline, others write a verse by verse exposition. I just want to see how you use your notes, and clippings, and form a sermon

Jerry Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203543#Comment_203543

Do you have any video's of you actually putting your sermon together. On the last video it showed a little bit...
That is all i have right now.... what specifically would you like to see?

Just how you take the information you gathered, and put it together in a sermon. I have seen so many different ways that people do a sermon. Some just do an outline, others write a verse by verse exposition. I just want to see how you use your notes, and clippings, and form a sermon

Thats exactly what I need help on. I get so much information from L4 but how to put it in the sermon is what Im missing. A lot of good stuff gets left out.

Graham Owen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203621#Comment_203621

A lot of good stuff gets left out.

Hi Jerry

For me this is normal and is part of the editing process. The key question is what does the congregation need to hear? For me some of the good stuff needs to be allowed to go to the background so the important stuff can dominate the foreground. With the wealth of material that Logos contains there is always a danger that we create an academic paper rather than a sermon.

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203625#Comment_203625

Hi Jerry

For me this is normal and is part of the editing process. The key question is what does the congregation need to hear? For me some of the good stuff needs to be allowed to go to the background so the important stuff can dominate the foreground. With the wealth of material that Logos contains there is always a danger that we create an academic paper rather than a sermon.

That is very true...It is very easy to do will such a scholarly product..Hopefully, Joe will address some of those issues.

Next year L4 will have an upgraded illustration section, so that should help get some of that practical stuff in there.

James Matichuk

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203629#Comment_203629

Interesting that nobody mentions how much time they devote to prayer in their sermon prep. Not that spending time in resources, commentaries, translations, and original languages are not an important part of exegesis but sermons come alive when the preacher hears from God, not just when the exegete digs out new facts about the text from reading well and broadly.

Giovanni Baggio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203649#Comment_203649

James Matichuk wrote: " but sermons come alive when the preacher hears from God." [^o)] Do I smell charismatic? sniff...sniff...sniff...

Correction: The preacher doesn't hear anything from God. When a preacher prays he talks to God. God no longer talks to us like He did in times past. He talks to us through His inspired Word. Now, I'm sure that just because people didn't mention prayer doesn't mean they don't pray. Plus, you're not going to pray for two hours before you start preparing your lesson. You could do it, but it's a personal choice. Personally I pray to God on Sunday for everything I might get to do during the week and close on Saturday with a prayer...[6]...I mean...[A]...[Y]

Hebrews 1:1-2, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." The Son in turn speaks to us through the Word (John 12:48) which was given to us through the Holy Spirit (1Pet. 1:20-21; cf. 2Ti. 3:16-17).

Anyway...I just hope I misunderstood you when you said "the preacher hears from God..." But given the context, I don't think I did, so correction is needed. The last thing we need is a charismatic movement going on in the forums. I would apologize for my bluntness but by now everybody here in the forums knows i'm just a straight forward guy...love me or hate me...LOL

James Matichuk

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203657#Comment_203657

Giovanni,

If you like to smell charismatics you should probably seek professional help. Sounds like an odd fetish.

Are you really going to argue that prayerful study is not important? This isn't a charismatic not charismatic issue. It is an issue in need of correction if you think the best you can offer for a sermon is a week of hard work. There are critical scholars who know the text backwards and forward without a confessional bone in their body. Certainly, the primary means by which God communicates is his Word, no argument here. But if your sermon is arrived at solely by reading commentaries, and personal study, it doesn't mean that the word of God has become a part of your life.

One of my profs at seminary, J.I. Packer (a man who is seldom if ever has been accused of being charismatic), somewhere writes that God's guidance is given to us from the Word and when we doing our best thinking in the posture of prayer. In my post, I was merely noting that no one has mentioned prayer as part of their sermon prep. You have mentioned that you think prayer is a personal choice (I will resist the need to reciprocate your proof-texting with a bunch of my own on the centrality and importance of prayer). Personally I don't find it optional. You admit to prayer that God will bless what 'you do' and a prayer at the end of the week. Personally this wouldn't cut it for me, as I think that prayer has to do with putting me in the sort of posture where I can hear from God (rest assured in the context of sermon preperation, I hear from God from the Bible, so lets keep the labels to a minimum). If I do not do my study within the context of prayer, I believe I miss cues from God as to how God may be speaking through a particular text to the particular group of people I am speaking too.

None of this is arguing for shoddy exegesis or shortchanging study time to spend hours in prayer, but it is acknowledging that what happens on Sunday morning isn't about me flexing my exegetical muscles so much as me being a vessel to help communicate what God is saying through His word. I believe you are well read enough, to know that this is not just a 'charismatic' perspective.

But what would be wrong with a little more openness to the Spirit in sermon preparation (or for that matter in the forums)?

Giovanni Baggio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203661#Comment_203661

james,

how long, how long my child? You wrote: "Are you really going to argue that prayerful study is not important?" I never argued that prayerful study is not important. On the contrary, it is important, but trust me praying alone will not make your sermon relevant for your listeners. It is your job to make it relevant, praying only gets u in the reverent mood that will help u concentrate to get the job done, but it's still your job to make a good sermon. And even if you prayed for 2 hours before working on your sermon that won't make your sermon a good one because perhaps the one preaching doesn't have the talent to preach. All preachers should work on becoming better presenters of the Word, praying alone will not do, prayer and hard work will. I'm sure you've heard the story about the little girl that asked her preacher dad "Daddy why do you pray so much?" and the preacher dad replied, "so God can help me preach better sermons so people won't get bored and fall asleep" and to this the little girl asked, "Then why hasn't he helped you?" LOL funny, but true. Praying alone will not do it you must do your part by diligently studying and intelligently putting your research together to craft "the perfect sermon." This is what this whole thread is all about...blair asking how to put all the research together.

But I will at least be honest this time...Since u said that: "Certainly, the primary means by which God communicates is his Word, no argument here," then I'll let it slip this time...LOL...but what u should do next time is clarify how God speaks or else u leave the impression that u are somehow involved in mysticism (thinking God speaks to you and thereby giving you more revelation than the one that has already been once and for all delivered unto the saints).

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203621#Comment_203621

Alright guys, here's the answer to Blair's and Jerry's troubles: http://www.logos.com/product/8493/the-i-beam-of-message-building

You can pre-order that or just order the booklet (which is self explanatory) from MPSeminars: https://www.mpseminars.com/index.cfm/PageID/1312

I'm waiting on the Manual myself. Can't afford the DVDs for now, though I would prefer the DVD.

I like Jeremy's videos, but that method is not for me. Utley's method is too long and complicated IMO. On Jeremy's videos I will say this: I did learn how to take advantage of the "favorites" feature and how to create and organize my notes a little better for my own and much simpler method of using L4 for sermon preparation.

Warning: MP's I-Beam Manual does not teach how to prep your sermon using L4 it's basically a "How to prepare expository" sermons using Morris' I-Beam analogy.

Blessings!

Douglas

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203688#Comment_203688

Alright guys, here's the answer to Blair's and Jerry's troubles: http://www.logos.com/product/8493/the-i-beam-of-message-building

You can pre-order that or just order the booklet (which is self explanatory) from MPSeminars: https://www.mpseminars.com/index.cfm/PageID/1312

I'm waiting on the Manual myself. Can't afford the DVDs for now, though I would prefer the DVD.

I like Jeremy's videos, but that method is not for me. Utley's method is too long and complicated IMO. On Jeremy's videos I will say this: I did learn how to take advantage of the "favorites" feature and how to create and organize my notes a little better for my own and much simpler method of using L4 for sermon preparation.

Warning: MP's I-Beam Manual does not teach how to prep your sermon using L4 it's basically a "How to prepare expository" sermons using Morris' I-Beam analogy.

Blessings!

Douglas

I actually pre-pub I beam a month ago, been waiting pretty patiently.. [:D].. But was able to take a little from everyone, and put together a pretty decent sermon prep. I am now able to actually look at all my commentaries, but that is because they are broken up in 3 categories (application)(exposition)(exegetical). On day 3 of sermon prep I look at my application commentaries.. Which are very few, logos does not offer very many of these types.. Day 4 I read my expositional commentaries to confirm my historical research from prior day's, and to see if I missed anything. On day 5 I read my exegetical commentaries, which for some reason I have very few of. Maybe I categorized stuff that was exegetical into expositional on accident.. Either way it's ok because the exegetical commentaries I own are very lengthy, so it is good I only have a few of them. I was able to take all of Bob Utley's principles and break it up into a 5 day sermon prep

James Matichuk

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203684#Comment_203684

james,

On the contrary, it is important, but trust me praying alone will not make your sermon relevant for your listeners. It is your job to make it relevant, praying only gets u in the reverent mood that will help u concentrate to get the job done, but it's still your job to make a good sermon. And even if you prayed for 2 hours before working on your sermon that won't make your sermon a good one because perhaps the one preaching doesn't have the talent to preach. All preachers should work on becoming better presenters of the Word, praying alone will not do, prayer and hard work will.

I never said you should pray for 2 hours before you work on your sermon. I said you should that prayer is a 'part of sermon preparation.' I am sorry if I misrepresented you, but you kind of took it on the offensive. My original reading of your post was you saying that prayer was opitional, I now see that you were simply saying that a 2 hour prayer before you begin your preparation is optional. Fine, personally I couldn't do it.

As the forum is discussing sermon preparation and study of the Biblical text, I shouldn't have to defend my theology of God's communication ( which making this a sticking point, puts us both in violation of the Logos forum policy). But in the interest in offending your sensibilities, I am charismatic, in that I believe the Spirit is at work in the mind and heart of the believer and gives gifts to His people which enable members of Christ's body to minister to one another and the world. I ascribe to a sort of mysticism, in that I prescribe that those who know God well, through time spent with him in prayer and the Bible, have wisdom and insight to offer us. I don't put myself in that category. And on a personal note, I think I am a fairly decent, though inexperienced preacher. I think I am naturally wired for exegesis and preaching, but on weeks when I have prayed well, God does something better through my preaching, than on week where I only work hard.

And I repeat, I never said prayer takes the place of exegetical methods. I went to seminary and done exegesis and hermeneutic classes and gratefully apply what I have learned. My own practice is to either go through all the steps in Fee's New Testament Exegesis or Stuart's Old Testament Exegesis when prepping a sermon. I read widely on my passage from different commentaries and theologians, as well as check the ATLAS serial database at my local theological college for relevant articles. I work hard on sermon form. But I think it is problematic if we don't actually prioritize prayer in the process. Which I take to be a non-controversial point. It's just people who trust their methodology can sometimes forget the spiritual relationship at the core of good pastoral practice.

Jerry M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203696#Comment_203696

James, I appreciate the graciousness of your words, it is not aways easy to be so gracious when discussing topics that we have strong feelings about.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203684#Comment_203684

praying only gets u in the reverent mood that will help u concentrate to get the job done

I'm genuinely astonished. Here was I thinking that prayer actually worked - that God answered prayer and actually changed things. Now I realise that all prayer does is get me in a reverent mood. Are you going to let the apostle Paul know he was wasting our time, or shall I? (Col. 4:3, 2 Thess 3:1, 1 Tim. 2:8, etc.)

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203734#Comment_203734

praying only gets u in the reverent mood that will help u concentrate to get the job done

I'm genuinely astonished. Here was I thinking that prayer actually worked - that God answered prayer and actually changed things. Now I realise that all prayer does is get me in a reverent mood. Are you going to let the apostle Paul know he was wasting our time, or shall I? (Col. 4:3, 2 Thess 3:1, 1 Tim. 2:8, etc.)

[;)]

Clay Womble

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203755#Comment_203755

Okay folks lots of posts but how much time on AVERAGE do you spend on your main message of the week in sermon preparation?

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203543#Comment_203543

Do you have any video's of you actually putting your sermon together. On the last video it showed a little bit...
That is all i have right now.... what specifically would you like to see?

Just how you take the information you gathered, and put it together in a sermon. I have seen so many different ways that people do a sermon. Some just do an outline, others write a verse by verse exposition. I just want to see how you use your notes, and clippings, and form a sermon

that is probably a bit more than I can do right now on a video, but I will give it some thought for a future series.

Merry Christmas

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203772#Comment_203772

Okay folks lots of posts but how much time on AVERAGE do you spend on your main message of the week in sermon preparation?

I have never really timed it, but I imagine it is never less than 6 and never more than 12.

James Matichuk

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203798#Comment_203798

Average depends. I would say there is a bunch of Background I would do at the beginning of a series on the theology of the overall book of the Bible we are looking at. So that would take a lot of extra time, but maybe the next time I preach from the book. I would say on a regular sermon, about 20-25 hours preparation.

Wes Saad

When I'm diligent in my work on my main sermon, I would guestimate I spend at least 10-15 hours on it. I generally preach three times a week, and the other sermons get less prep time. I've got a document I call Sermon Builder which I use to guide my planning and preparation. I just fill in the sections and it provides a regular order and structure to my prep. If I'm working on a new series through a book of the Bible, there are some additional sections, but this is my typical form for each sermon. Once I'm semi satisfied with my prep I move on to the sermon outline.

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203797#Comment_203797

that is probably a bit more than I can do right now on a video, but I will give it some thought for a future series.

Merry Christmas

I completely understand, your videos have been a real help, and through them I formed my own. Soon I will post a video on it, and show you how I ended up working it out.

Merry Christmas also..

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/204024#Comment_204024

Interesting, I'd like to watch those when they're available. J's videos were helpful to get me started using new features on Logos 4, so I'm curious if I'll be able to learn how to use new features with yours. Please, share them all!

Best wishes,

Douglas

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/204065#Comment_204065

I am working on my L4 video. My father in law still has L3, so I made this video for him. By no means is it a profession video. I encourage you to critic it.

[View:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7z_R6BbkuY:550:0]

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/204065#Comment_204065

Interesting, I'd like to watch those when they're available. J's videos were helpful to get me started using new features on Logos 4, so I'm curious if I'll be able to learn how to use new features with yours. Please, share them all!

Best wishes,

Douglas

I just finished the video for sermon prep 4.. This is what I was able to come up with so far. I would be very interested to hear if others have any pointers on how to make it more efficient

[View:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM4O-i3bS3M:550:0]

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/203772#Comment_203772

Okay folks lots of posts but how much time on AVERAGE do you spend on your main message of the week in sermon preparation?

I average about 10-12 hours per message.