Need advice on purchase of Apostolic Fathers: Lake or Lightfoot
The Lake and Lightfoot versions of Apostolic Fathers are both on sale until the end of the year. I wish to buy one. The lecturer for the online Church history course I am auditing suggested picking up an inexpensive copy of Lightfoot in paperback. The Lake appears to be a somewhat later publication. I can't wait for the Apostolic Fathers resource that is in prepub since I need to be able to read it in January.
I have a Silver package so I apparently won't get interlinear, but I would at least like the Greek text to go along with the English.
Could someone please discuss differences between Lightfoot and Lake and possibly make a recommendation?
Thanks.
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I got Lightfoot's English and Greek with Silver last year. Don't you have it? The Greek has an Interlinear format with morphology and lemma.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I misspoke. I have a Scholar's which does not include Lightfoot.
I do not see Apostolic Father's - Lightfoot in the Logos product comparison list. There is an Apostolic Fathers for Gold and there is a 37 volume "Early Church Fathers" included in Silver.
If Lightfoot has the interlinear, then I will buy it unless somebody steps forward to vouch for Lake over Lightfoot.
Thanks.
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Lake also has an interlinear.
I'm afraid I am not qualified to judge the difference between the two editions, and was wondering which was preferred only yesterday.
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Based on a prior forum post it looks like the Lake interlinear only works with Gold unless you got "grandfathered" on a licensing glitch last year.
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I found this on ccel.org, he seems to prefer LIghtfoot:
The best edition of the text, and the one used for the translation in this volume, is that of Karl Bihlmeyer, Die apostolischen Väter, Neubearbeitung der Funkschen Ausgabe, I Teil (Sammlung ausgewählter kirchen- und dogmengeschichtlicher Quellenschriften, II Reihe, I Heft, I Teil), Tübingen, 1924. This is a third revision of text published by F. X. Funk, Patres apostolici, 2 vols., Tübingen, 1901. Absolutely indispensable, however, is the monumental edition of J. B. Lightfoot, The Apostolic Fathers, Part 2: "S. Ignatius, S. Polycarp," Revised Texts with Introductions, Notes, Dissertations, and Translations, 3 vols., 2d ed., London, 1889. An editio minor of Lightfoot was edited by J. R. Harmer, The Apostolic Fathers, Revised Texts with Short Introductions and English Translations, London, 1912. Other texts which should be consulted are: Th. Zahn, Ignatii et Polycarpi epistulae martyria fragmenta (Patrum apostolicorum opera, ed. O. de Gebhardt, A. Harnack, and Th. Zahn, Vol. II), Leipzig, 1876; Adolfus Hilgenfeld, Ignatii Antiocheni et Polycarpi Smyrnaei epistulae et martyria edidit et adnotationibus instruxit, C. A. Schwetschke and Sons, Berlin, 1902; Kirsopp Lake, The Apostolic Fathers, With an English Translation (Loeb Classical Library), London, 1912, Vol. I, pp. 280–301; Auguste Lelong, Les Pères apostoliques, III, Ignace d’Antioche et Polycarpe de Smyrne Épîtres, Martyre de Polycarpe, pp. 108–128. Texte grec, traduction française, introduction et index (Textes et documents pour l’étude historique du Christianisme, 12, ed. H. Hemmer and P. Lejay), 2d ed., Paris, 1927; G. Bosio, I Padri apostolici (Corona Patrum Salesiana, Series Graeca, 14), Società editrice internazionale, Turin, 1943, Vol. II, pp. 163–201.
Another interesting review is here
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I guess everyone agrees that Lightfoot is "monumental". I don't mind the archaic English. It might be nice to have better text, but that probably would not be noticeable until the Holmes translation.
Thank you for the information. I'm definitely leaning toward Lightfoot now.
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Here's a copy of a random passage (Ignatius to the Romans, 5) in all four translations of the Apostolic Fathers, in case it helps:
Ante-Nicene Fathers
From Syria even unto Rome I fight with beasts, both by land and sea, both by night and day, being bound to ten leopards, I mean a band of soldiers, who, even when they receive benefits, show themselves all the worse. But I am the more instructed by their injuries [to act as a disciple of Christ]; “yet am I not thereby justified.” May I enjoy the wild beasts that are prepared for me; and I pray they may be found eager to rush upon me, which also I will entice to devour me speedily, and not deal with me as with some, whom, out of fear, they have not touched. But if they be unwilling to assail me, I will compel them to do so. Pardon me [in this]: I know what is for my benefit. Now I begin to be a disciple. And let no one, of things visible or invisible, envy me that I should attain to Jesus Christ. Let fire and the cross; let the crowds of wild beasts; let tearings, breakings, and dislocations of bones; let cutting off of members; let shatterings of the whole body; and let all the dreadful torments of the devil come upon me: only let me attain to Jesus Christ.Lake's
FROM Syria to Rome I am fighting with wild beasts, by land and sea, by night and day, bound to ten “leopards” (that is, a company of soldiers), and they become worse for kind treatment. Now I become the more a disciple for their ill deeds, “but not by this am I justified.” 2 I long for the beasts that are prepared for me; and I pray that they may be found prompt for me; I will even entice them to devour me promptly; not as has happened to some whom they have not touched from fear; even if they be unwilling of themselves, I will force them to it. 3 Grant me this favour. I know what is expedient for me; now I am beginning to be a disciple. May nothing of things seen or unseen envy me my attaining to Jesus Christ. Let there come on me fire, and cross, and struggles with wild beasts, cutting, and tearing asunder, rackings of bones, mangling of limbs, crushing of my whole body, cruel tortures of the devil, may I but attain to Jesus Christ!Holmes
From Syria all the way to Rome I am fighting with wild beasts, on land and sea, by night and day, chained amidst ten leopards (that is, a company of soldiers) who only get worse when they are well treated. Yet because of their mistreatment I am becoming more of a disciple; nevertheless “I am not thereby justified.” (2) May I have the pleasure of the wild beasts that have been prepared for me; and I pray that they prove to be prompt with me. I will even coax them to devour me promptly, not as they have done with some, whom they were too timid to touch. And if when I am willing and ready they are not, I will force them. (3) Bear with me—I know what is best for me. Now at last I am beginning to be a disciple. May nothing visible or invisible envy me, so that I may reach Jesus Christ. Fire and cross and battles with wild beasts, mutilation, mangling, wrenching of bones, the hacking of limbs, the crushing of my whole body, cruel tortures of the devil—let these come upon me, only let me reach Jesus Christ!Lightfoot
From Syria even unto Rome I fight with wild beasts, by land and sea, by night and by day, being bound amidst ten leopards, even a company of soldiers, who only wax worse when they are kindly treated. Howbeit through their wrong doings I become more completely a disciple; yet am I not hereby justified. 2May I have joy of the beasts that have been prepared for me; and I pray that I may find them prompt; nay I will entice them that they may devour me promptly, not as they have done to some, refusing to touch them through fear. Yea though of themselves they should not be willing while I am ready, I myself will force them to it. 3Bear with me. I know what is expedient for me. Now am I beginning to be a disciple. May naught of things visible and things invisible envy me; that I may attain unto Jesus Christ. Come fire and cross and grapplings with wild beasts, [cuttings and manglings,] wrenching of bones, hacking of limbs, crushings of my whole body, come cruel tortures of the devil to assail me. Only be it mine to attain unto Jesus Christ.This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark,
Thank you very much for the opportunity to compare the versions. I think that Lightfoot is just a bit archaic. The Lake version is going to be the one for me.
Thanks to Dominick, as well. I read the article to which he linked. It was quite interesting.
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Dominick,
Thank you, also, for supplying this interesting information.
You guys really go the extra mile!
David
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Hi David
I'm probably a little late, but thought I'd give some information anyway.
Between Lake and Lightfoot, Lightfoot is the older edition. It was published in the late 1800s; Lake was published in 1912. Lake will typically cite Lightfoot in his scant text-critical notes if there is a meaningful difference. Of those two, I find Lake's English the more readable.
Of course, I think Holmes is best of the three as regards readability and Greek text; but I know that isn't an option for you presently.
Thanks for your note re: the Apostolic Fathers Interlinear on pre-pub (http://bit.ly/ApFthInt ). The progress is coming nicely, but certainly won't be done by January. I have 1 Clement, All of Ignatius, Polycarp, Martyrdom of Polycarp and the Didache complete; 2 Clement (in progress) plus Barnabas, Epistle to Diognetus, and the Shepherd of Hermas remain. I still think completion some time this summer is realistic.
And to compare with Mark Barnes' listing of different editions of Ign. Rom. 5, here's what I've got at present, from the interlinear that is in progress, and re-assembled as an English translation. Please note this is still rather provisional. Bracketed letters refer to notes (which are included below)
5.1 From Syria to Rome I am fighting with wild beasts, by land and by sea, night and day, being imprisoned[a b] by ten leopards (that is, a company[ c ] of soldiers) who also, being treated kindly,[ d ] become even worse. But in their mistreatments I am becoming more of a disciple, but I have not been justified[ e ] by these mistreatments. 2 May I enjoy the beasts that have been made ready for me, and I pray they might deal with me speedily. I will also entice them to devour me quickly, not as with some who were so cowardly they have not touched. But even if they are themselves unwilling, I will force them. 3 Grant me this favor. I know what is best for me. Now I am beginning to be a disciple. May nothing visible or invisible envy me, so that I may reach Jesus Christ. Fire and cross and battles with beasts, mutilation, being torn apart, scattering of bones, mangling of limbs, grinding of the whole body, cruel tortures of the devil; let these come upon me, only that I may reach Jesus Christ.
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a. δεδεμένος Lake ] ἐνδεδεμένος Lightfoot Holmes Ehrman. While the difference doesn't directly affect the translation, it is worth mentioning as Lake is in the minority.
b. Lightfoot notes: "The saint was attended by a company of ten soldiers, who relieved guard in turn, so that he was always bound night and day to one of them by a ἅλυσις or 'coupling-chain'. … It is probable that the soldiers were in charge of other prisoners also though these are not mentioned by Ignatius."
c. The sense of "division, group" does not occur in the NT.
d. Lightfoot paraphrases, "the more they receive in gratuities, the harsher and more extortionate they become."
e. 1Co 4.4Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Rick, will the interlinear come with a stand-alone English tranlation such as you have quoted above?
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Rick Brannan said:
I have 1 Clement, All of Ignatius, Polycarp, Martyrdom of Polycarp and the Didache complete; 2 Clement (in progress) plus Barnabas, Epistle to Diognetus, and the Shepherd of Hermas remain. I still think completion some time this summer is realistic.
Just a wild idea Rick, since you have so much excellent work completed, any chance of a "beta" release of the resources to those who have ordered it? If I recall correctly, it seems that with the SBL resources for instance there was a nice interaction with users for minor corrections etc. which hopefully made the product better, quicker.
I was thinking you could put a big BETA stamp on it - in the footnote, or title of each page, or something real obvious so people don't start complaining. I for one thin it would be great to start using the Didache, 1 Clement, and Ignatius (my faves) early.
Crazy idea I know - just thought I might ask! Happy New Year!
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Jonathan Pitts said:
Rick, will the interlinear come with a stand-alone English tranlation such as you have quoted above?
Hi Jonathan.
The interlinear will not come with a stand-alone English translation. However, like all the Lexham interlinears, the English will have sequence numbers where necessary to facilitate re-assembling. What I did above was to re-assemble based on sequence number.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Hi Dominick
Dominick Sela said:Just a wild idea Rick, since you have so much excellent work completed, any chance of a "beta" release of the resources to those who have ordered it? If I recall correctly, it seems that with the SBL resources for instance there was a nice interaction with users for minor corrections etc. which hopefully made the product better, quicker.
I was thinking you could put a big BETA stamp on it - in the footnote, or title of each page, or something real obvious so people don't start complaining. I for one thin it would be great to start using the Didache, 1 Clement, and Ignatius (my faves) early.
Crazy idea I know - just thought I might ask! Happy New Year!
Not really *too* crazy of an idea, it has crossed my mind. If we'd do such a thing, I think we'd want to be closer to completion before doing it.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Hi Rick,
You have won me over! I shall muddle along with Schaff's "Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1" from ccel, http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.html, until your version is ready!
Since you and Mark have been so kind as to give me passages for comparison, I have taken the time to include Schaff's version from ccel:
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From Syria, and even unto Rome, I am cast among wild beasts, by sea and by land, by night and by day, being bound between ten leopards, which are the band of soldiers, who, even when I do good to them, all the more do evil unto me. I, however, am the rather instructed by their injurious treatment;1166 but not on this account am I justified to myself. I rejoice in the beasts which are prepared for me, and I pray that they may in haste be found for me; and I will provoke them speedily to devour me, and not be as those which are afraid of some other men,1167 and will not approach them: even should they not be willing to approach me, I will go with violence against them. Know me from myself what is expedient for me.1168 Let no one1169 envy me of those things which are seen and which are not seen, that I should be accounted worthy of Jesus Christ. Fire, and the cross, and the beasts that are prepared, cutting off of the limbs, and scattering of the bones, and crushing of the whole body, harsh torments of the devil—let these come upon me, but1170 only let me be accounted worthy of Jesus Christ.
1166 Literally, “by their injury.”
1167 Literally, “and not as that which is afraid of some other men.” So Cureton translates, but remarks that the passage is evidently corrupt. The reference plainly is to the fact that the beasts sometimes refused to attack their intended victims. See the case of Blandina, as reported by Eusebius (Hist. Eccl., v. 1.).
1168 Cureton renders interrogatively, “What is expedient for me?” and remarks that “the meaning of the Syriac appears to be, ‘I crave your indulgence to leave the knowledge of what is expedient for me to my own conscience.’ ”
1169 Literally, “nothing.”
1170 Literally, “and.”____________________________________________________________________________________________
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.xii.v.htmlSince we seldom have such a unique opportunity to interact directly with the author of a resource, tell us: does pressing the "QUICK BUY" button instead of the "PRE-ORDER" button cause you to work faster? [:D]
Thanks for visiting this thread!
David Egolf
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