OT Quotes in NT: My New Project
A number of recent threads about searching for the quotations in the New Testament of the Old Testament has prompted a new project for me. I am manually highlighting the quotations and setting up a framework to highlight allusions to the OT.
Here's my layout for the project thus far.
I started a new highlighting palette called "Intertextuality" This will allow me to toggle this view in the NA27. Quotations receive a color-coded underline plus a bubble tag with "short book abbreviation" in it. Pentateuch is brick red; Historical books Green; Poetry/Wisdom books are Purple; and Prophets are Dark Blue. After I highlight the quote I attach a note to the reference so I can have cross references whether or not a Bible is tagged with them.
Benefits?
- When I am done I will be able to search just quotes from Psalms etc. The NA27 has a quoted material search field but it does not differentiate the sources of the quotes.
- The line between a quotation and an allusion is a subjective one. This allows me to have a record of what I think the relationship is. If you notice I'm starting with all the instances in the OT quotes according to the HCSB. I've already found 3 instances that I don't think rise to the level of quotation, they've been dumped into my quotation/verbal parallelism note file.
- Having the allusion framework set up will allow me to really track the influence of the OT on a passage drawing input from much more detailed work in journal articles and commentaries that isn't present in standard cross-reference schemes.
- I anticipate Logos having a highlighting report - being able to view all the text of what you've highlighted with a specific style; there should be some really neat things I can do with all of this highlighted in the future. You can already do something like this by using a Passage List to pull verses from what's highlighted.
Some observations
- It would be great if Logos would do something like this. However, I'm glad for the opportunity to have the highlighting reflect the results of my studies.
- Notes are slow! This process really bogs down on my laptop with integrated graphics. My desktop is better. I estimate that it will take about 10-20 hours to complete the project.
So what do you think? I just made it through Acts. Have I missed something? Is there something that you do that would be good for me to incorporate into this project?
Prov. 15:23
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Nice icons!
Like you my laptop blogs down (and eventually crashes, due to temp files & i've cleared temp files several times). My laptop is probably slower than yours.
Great project for those with newer laptops!
Could you save your icon images in Old Test. icons similar to how i saved some?
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I didn't actually use Icons. I used the text tags with capsule option checked like this:
Prov. 15:23
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Kevin Becker said:
I didn't actually use Icons. I used the text tags with capsule option checked like this:
Nice! Thanks!
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Awesome! Now I can't wait until Logos lets us export and share our highlighting and notes with other users! I'll try to remember to come knocking on your door at that time.
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This is great! Have I mentioned (lately) that I am very visual??
I agree that some of the HCSB quotes don't seem to be quotes to me. I was noticing that yesterday.
I would LOVE the report of highlighted text. Even if just for cleanup purposes. I have changed how I mark over time and it would be nice to go back and fix up some of the earlier text.
Rosie, I agree. Sharing some of the talents of this user group in the form of things like this would be a great blessing to many of us and I would think it would add to the selling points for Logos. Imagine a study group that wants to share markup to all those who have Logos. I'm starting an online Precept class Thursday and many of the women will have Logos but most are very unsure how to use it to help their study. It would be great to give them my set of markup to get started.
I get the feeling right now that one person comes up with something cool and hundreds scurry off to try to do it, too. :-) Or is it just me?? :-D
Kaye
"But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry." 2 Timothy 4:5 (NASB)
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Just a note if anyone wants to do a similar project. Turning off the note indicator box in the Bible and OT quotes resource sped things up significantly. My laptop had bogged down to the point of hanging up every 3 or so keystrokes in a note. With the boxes off I get virtually no hanging.
Prov. 15:23
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Thanks for the tip. Anything to speed things up...
K
"But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry." 2 Timothy 4:5 (NASB)
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Kevin Becker said:
Just a note if anyone wants to do a similar project. Turning off the note indicator box in the Bible and OT quotes resource sped things up significantly. My laptop had bogged down to the point of hanging up every 3 or so keystrokes in a note. With the boxes off I get virtually no hanging.
WOW!!!!! Kevin. If you turn off the visual filter box for the note file you are using and then add a note, it works like greased lightening!
How come no one noticed this before?
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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Maybe it is just me because now my notes are working fast whether or not the box is checked or not. I guess others will have to test this to see if it speeds up note taking.
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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Rosie Perera said:
I'll try to remember to come knocking on your door at that time.
Rosie, I am not sure that you will be able to do that because of the long line at your door!![:D]
{charley}
running Logos Bible Software 6.0a: Collector's Edition on HP e9220y (AMD Phenom II X4 2.60GHz 8.00GB 64-bit Win 7 Pro SP1) & iPad (mini) apps.
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running Logos Bible Software 6.0a: Collector's Edition on HP e9220y (AMD Phenom II X4 2.60GHz 8.00GB 64-bit Win 7 Pro SP1) & iPad (mini) apps.
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Dr. Charles A. Wootten said:
This is REALLY very cool.
For me the most important part of this is the ability to highlight and reference allusions. The book of Revelation for example has very few direct quotes, but dozens of scriptural allusions, which are actually a key to help understand the book. I am glad Kevin shared his work!
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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I'm done with my first pass through the text. Whenever I study a NT passage now I will be certain to update my highlighting. Here's a screen-shot with some particularly dense quotations and allusions from 1 Peter. It's pretty cool to see the interplay.
Prov. 15:23
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Wow great job Kevin. I too look forward to the day where this may be able to be shared if you are willing. This is great work!
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Kevin, what you are doing it totally awesome! I hope that there will be a way that you can share this! Keep up the great work! [Y]
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Just a note to remind everyone that there are quote and allusion lists in the Bible Harmony section.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Kevin Becker said:
Whenever I study a NT passage now I will be certain to update my highlighting. Here's a screen-shot with some particularly dense quotations and allusions from 1 Peter. It's pretty cool to see the interplay.
Cool enough that you should ask Logos if they would be interested in distributing it.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Just a note to remind everyone that there are quote and allusion lists in the Bible Harmony section.
Just to be clear are you referring to the Parallel Passages section of the Passages Guide?
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Dominick Sela said:
Just to be clear are you referring to the Parallel Passages section of the Passages Guide?
Yes, they appear there or you can open them directly from your library.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I like this....but I have one question....how do I differentiate between a quote and allusion...I know that you said it was subjective....but is there a resource that draws this dividing line so I can get started?
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
I like this....but I have one question....how do I differentiate between a quote and allusion...I know that you said it was subjective....but is there a resource that draws this dividing line so I can get started?
I can't think of a resource off the top of my head that delineates a dividing line. Quotes use the same words, allusions use similar words. A quotation is a deliberate invoking of an OT passage whereas an allusion may just be present because the author was so immersed in the OT. So if you are in doubt about a specific example you can consult these to help make a determination
- Does the NA27 put it in italics? What it considers quotes are italicized.
- What does the NET Bible say? It is normally pretty good at identifying quotes and allusions.
- If still in doubt a technical commentary or something like the Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old should finish tipping it one way or the other.
Does this help? Even if you end up mis-classifying something here or there you will still end up better understanding how the NT authors use the OT.
Prov. 15:23
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Robert, since I suppose you are going to do this manually as Kevin did, let me remind you that as Kevin pointed out that if you underline the text, then it is searchable. Start a new palette. This could come in handy in the future if you wanted to find a quote and only remembered one or two of the words. Also if you don't want the underline to show, you can make it white and it pretty much disappears. I did the same thing Kevin did, only for the English NT. Here is a screen shot.
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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I finished the quotes and will go on to the allusions soon. I enjoyed doing this as it gives you a heads up on what the NT writers had probably been reading and meditating on when they composed their writing.
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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Jerry M said:
...it gives you a heads up on what the NT writers had probably been reading and meditating on when they composed their writing.
I don't think the writers of the NT or OT for that matter were reading or meditating on some portion of the OT when they "composed" their writing. Remember that "All Scripture is given by inspiration" God-breathed...(2Ti. 3:16) and they spoke (we could add wrote) as they were moved by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21). In other words, God told the OT & NT writers what to write...consider the following verses: Isaiah 30:8 there God told Isaiah to write, record in a book the words God revealed to him. Jeremiah 30:2 God told Jeremiah the same thing (write in a book); cf. Jer. 36:4 where Jeremiah dictated to Baruch the words of the Lord so Baruch could write them (cf. Rom. 16:22). Same thing happened when the NT was written. Paul wrote the commandment of the Lord in 1 Corinthians 14:37, so that those who are spiritual can perceive that. And finally, let's not forget about John who wrote the things which were revealed to him (Rev. 1:11; cf. 2:1, 8, etc. ). As you can see, they were not reading or meditating on anything, they were given the task to write all the things God-breathed to them. Neither Peter nor Matthew read the OT to pick and choose which verses to insert in their writings, God breathed to them the right verses with the right interpretation/application.
Anyway, I'm not trying to be picky. I may be "over reacting" [;)] but it is my conviction that God-breathed the Bible to the OT & NT writers so they could write exactly what God wanted them to write. Is not a matter of God assigning topics like God telling Paul: "Paul write about love; and then Paul came up with love is kind, is patience, etc." That would not be inspiration....True inspiration is God telling Paul: "Paul, write about love; AND this is what I want you to write: 'love is kind, love is patience, etc." I hope you and all who read my post get my point and don't misinterpret it. All I'm saying is that whenever God-breathed Scriptures it was not time to sit, read the OT and meditate so they could "compose" the Bible -- because that would not be inspiration.
Sweet dreams!
Giovanni
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Giovanni Baggio said:
it is my conviction that God-breathed the Bible to the OT & NT writers
This is theological and off topic, but I certainly take a "high view" of inspiration. I have given my life to study His word. Have you read the books of Luke and Acts where Luke set out to research all the facts of Jesus life and the events of the early church? Luke 1:3
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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Giovanni,
What you are describing is the dictation theory of inspiration. Inspiration is a fascinating topic; I happen to have a different take on it than you. I will resist debating it [:)]. What I will say is that whether one holds to dictation or verbal plenary inspiration or some other understanding, this highlighting scheme should be helpful. I think it is clear that the OT stands behind the NT and to fully understand the New we should study the Old, particularly the places where it is quoted and alluded to.
Prov. 15:23
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Kevin,
thanks for explaining it...that really helped...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
I like this....but I have one question....how do I differentiate between a quote and allusion...I know that you said it was subjective....but is there a resource that draws this dividing line so I can get started?
Just about everyone who looks at this question comes up with a different description. Formally, quotes will tell you they're quotes ("It is written", "Scripture says", etc.) and allusions are everything else, but there are some that look to be word-for-word without the "quotation formula".
Not in Logos, but Richard Hays, "Echoes of Scripture in the Letters of Paul" has a good description, though I think it has too many classes with too subtle divisions between them. It is widely available in paperback and not too expensive. Also not in Logos, but in the early 70's Donald Hagner published a book (his doctoral dissertation; Brill, I think, is the publisher) on the use of the OT and NT in Clement of Rome. I found this very, very helpful (more so than Hays). You'll probably have to find it at a library, though.
Lastly, you might want to try "Commentary on the NT use of the OT", published by Baker and available for Logos. http://www.logos.com/product/5321/commentary-on-the-new-testament-use-of-the-old-testament
Hope it helps.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
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Also the ESV will say "cited from" in their cross references if it is clearly a quote. (and of course put it in quotations)
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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Perhaps someone will find this helpful. If you search the Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament for allusion, you get a list of NT references in cannonical order, many of which are allusions.
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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Another thought you may want to consider if you are like me, less of an expert.... I found myself starting to worry more about whether it was a quote or whether it was an allusion, as I tried to incorporate this excellent practice into my study. So I modified it slightly, and just have a palette of "Quotes and Allusions" copying the ideas here - for me, knowing it's a quote or allusion can be discerned if it's important later, but most times I Just want to know where this thought from the NT writer came from, and to know it comes out of Ps 27 or whatever is a useful first step.
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Jerry---how do you make that search for "allusion" come out in cannonical order? Thanks,
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RichGrif said:
Jerry---how do you make that search for "allusion" come out in cannonical order? Thanks,
If you arrange the results By Book or By Title (I think the label is different between the Beta and Stable release) it will give you the hits in the order they are in the book and since the book is in canonical order...
Prov. 15:23
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Thanks much
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Kevin Becker said:
I'm done with my first pass through the text. Whenever I study a NT passage now I will be certain to update my highlighting. Here's a screen-shot with some particularly dense quotations and allusions from 1 Peter. It's pretty cool to see the interplay.
Kevin! Peace and every Blessing! I just now (yesterday, actually) discovered this thread! I am so very grateful to you! I now have my very own Intertextuality Note File started, based on yours. I'm also starting to use NA 28 which I received with my Logos 5 materials instead of NA 27 which I have used for many, many years.
Are you thinking of switching also to NA 28 ?
Anyway, Keven! The biggest Thank You! and ... Always Joy in the Lord! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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This is pretty sweet! I think I will start one of these as well! It looks really helpful for seeing where the quotes are while reading instead of overlooking them. I might highlight what is quoted from in the OT as well, with a NT book bubble so I can see how the NT authors treat an OT text at a glance.
Thanks!!!
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Liam Walsh said:
This is pretty sweet! I think I will start one of these as well! It looks really helpful for seeing where the quotes are while reading instead of overlooking them. I might highlight what is quoted from in the OT as well, with a NT book bubble so I can see how the NT authors treat an OT text at a glance.
Thanks!!!
Peace, Liam! Yes! Sweet indeed, eh? *smile*
There are probably more, but two books I have in my Logos 5 library are also extremely helpful:
1.
Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament
by D. A. Carson, G. K. Beale
| 2007
(59.99 USD)*2. Old Testament Quotations and Allusions in the New Testament by David A JonesPhilippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Liam Walsh said:
This is pretty sweet! I think I will start one of these as well! It looks really helpful for seeing where the quotes are while reading instead of overlooking them. I might highlight what is quoted from in the OT as well, with a NT book bubble so I can see how the NT authors treat an OT text at a glance.
Thanks!!!
The good news is, if you have Logos 5, you can get a copy of my note file. Go to you Account Settings Page on Logos.com, choose the Groups Tab. In the search bar type in OT Quotes in NT. Join that group and then go to documents.logos.com. At the top click your name and select the OT quotes in NT group. That'll bring up the list of shared documents in that group (so far just mine). Hover over the title and then click Connect. Sync L5 and you should get the document.
Prov. 15:23
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Milford Charles Murray said:
Kevin! Peace and every Blessing! I just now (yesterday, actually) discovered this thread! I am so very grateful to you! I now have my very own Intertextuality Note File started, based on yours. I'm also starting to use NA 28 which I received with my Logos 5 materials instead of NA 27 which I have used for many, many years.
Are you thinking of switching also to NA 28 ?
Anyway, Keven! The biggest Thank You! and ... Always Joy in the Lord! *smile*
You're welcome. I just wish I could have shared this document sooner!
I'm thinking about porting it over to the NA28, however seeing as most people will have the NA27 since the 28 only comes in @ L5 Platinum and higher it might be best to keep it on the NA27 so I can share it as widely as possible.
When you got your copy of my document did the custom highlights show up fine? I'm curious to see how the shared documents come across but I haven't found a shared file I wanted yet. [:)]
Prov. 15:23
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Kevin,
Thanks! It looks like this (on my MacBook):
Luuk
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And NA27:
Luuk
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Mine looks almost exactly like Luuk's, Kevin, except I have a bit more colour!Kevin Becker said:When you got your copy of my document did the custom highlights show up fine? I'm curious to see how the shared documents come across but I haven't found a shared file I wanted yet.
Also, if you've done a lot of work on this Note File since you first posted it, would you consider, please, posting it again!
As I've shared with you already, it is an incredibly liberating and enabling document for me in my indepth Scriptural Studies. Am getting a wee bit older; but, what's happening, is that I'm more excited and eager about God's Word than ever before! After a lifetime of Ministry! I'm beginning to think I won't be at all bored when our Gracious God calls me Home with all the clouds and the harps and whatever! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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In my hard copy of NA Greek New Testament I have an index of quotations and an index of allusions and verbal parallels. I tried searching for this list in logos but it was not put into any electronic editions. I also tried to find a pdf copy on the internet and could't find one. Why was this helpful list left out of our electronic editions?
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John Brumett said:
In my hard copy of NA Greek New Testament I have an index of quotations and an index of allusions and verbal parallels. I tried searching for this list in logos but it was not put into any electronic editions. I also tried to find a pdf copy on the internet and could't find one. Why was this helpful list left out of our electronic editions?
For the same reason the front matter and apparatuses are not in the Logos editions. The German Bible Society didn't license those materials to be included in the base packages.
Prov. 15:23
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John Brumett said:
Why was this helpful list left out of our electronic editions?
Peace, John! Indeed a Great Question! *smile*
If you were ever to find the answer, any sharing you did would be most appreciated! Always Joy in the Lord!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Kevin: I noticed that you said you would HCSB for your project. Are you planning to use the list I mentioned in hard copy of NA 27 that includes quotes and allusions? Do you have a hard copy of those lists?
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John Brumett said:
Kevin: I noticed that you said you would HCSB for your project. Are you planning to use the list I mentioned in hard copy of NA 27 that includes quotes and allusions? Do you have a hard copy of those lists?
There are a couple of Bible Harmony resources in Logos that catalog quotes and allusions. I worked through those and, if my memory serves (it's been a while since I was doing this systematically) I used the list at the back of the print UBS4.
Prov. 15:23
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Kevin Becker said:
The good news is, if you have Logos 5, you can get a copy of my note file. Go to you Account Settings Page on Logos.com, choose the Groups Tab. In the search bar type in OT Quotes in NT. Join that group and then go to documents.logos.com. At the top click your name and select the OT quotes in NT group. That'll bring up the list of shared documents in that group (so far just mine). Hover over the title and then click Connect. Sync L5 and you should get the document.
So far I haven't dared to join any groups on Faithlife, since a) I (accidentally and fortunately) found out shortly after registering that they'd made most of my private information publicly available by default, without even telling me, and b) Bob (I think it was Bob?) wrote a post about the same time revealing that joining a group automatically gives the administrator of that group access to all my private info, also without telling me, and without any option to prevent it.
What's it like now? Have they done anything about the security since? Do you get to see real names and e-mails of those who join your group?
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Hi fgh
fgh said:What's it like now? Have they done anything about the security since? Do you get to see real names and e-mails of those who join your group?
The current privacy statement is at https://faithlife.com/privacy
I am the administrator of a small test group with one other member. All I can see regarding that individual is their name (which I assume can be an alias).
On the profile page - where you can enter information about yourself - there are sliders to adjust who can see which information: options are "Me", "Closed", "Open", "Everyone"
These can be used against details such as:
- Real Name
- gender
- birthday
- birth year
- location
- bio
- denomination
Your "Display Name" and "Profile URL" are not constrained by these settings so would be public (as would any information you choose to put in the "About" field).
Hope this is useful
Graham
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