Observation: Morph Search and Visual filter search different boundaries.
When you use a morph search (or a Bible search for that matter) your search terms are constricted by the verse. If you want to search a pattern larger than a verse you need to use a basic search which requires a more complicated syntax and there you are limited by chapter.
I just discovered that the Morph visual filter does not limit itself to verses. This means you can combine features across many verses and then use the Navigate to next Filter hit to cycle through your "results"
Notice the difference between the highlighting that the search window and the VF makes.
I hadn't noticed this before but I figured it might help someone to know. If you want to make a VF document limited you would have to use proximity markers (i.e. WITHIN 20 WORDS) to approximate verse limits.
Prov. 15:23
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So what are the boundaries? Chapters?
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Todd Phillips said:
So what are the boundaries? Chapters?
I did some testing and it does appear that the boundaries are chapters.
Forgive the salty language of the example I used [6]
Prov. 15:23
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Kevin Becker said:
I just discovered that the Morph visual filter does not limit itself to verses. This means you can combine features across many verses and then use the Navigate to next Filter hit to cycle through your "results"
I can duplicate the your filter highlighting if I use Basic search:
This looks like a bug to me. The filter should be the same as the search of the same type.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Todd Phillips said:
This looks like a bug to me. The filter should be the same as the search of the same type.
You're probably right, but I can think of plenty of instances where it would be easier to use a VF document instead of using the more complicated syntax to search morphology with a basic search.
Prov. 15:23
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Kevin Becker said:Todd Phillips said:
This looks like a bug to me. The filter should be the same as the search of the same type.
You're probably right, but I can think of plenty of instances where it would be easier to use a VF document instead of using the more complicated syntax to search morphology with a basic search.
The way I did the Basic search was to first enter it as a Morph search (using your syntax in the first post), and then switch the search type to Basic. It converts the syntax for you.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Kevin Becker said:
When you use a morph search (or a Bible search for that matter) your search terms are constricted by the verse. (...)
I just discovered that the Morph visual filter does not limit itself to verses.
Good catch!
I really dislike this "constricted by verse" idea. The verses aren't exactly part of the original text... Why should I risk missing an important search result simply because someone has put a verse number in the middle of a sentence?!
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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fgh said:
I really dislike this "constricted by verse" idea. The verses aren't exactly part of the original text... Why should I risk missing an important search result simply because someone has put a verse number in the middle of a sentence?!
I agree. There should be a way to easily tell the search engine to cross verse and even chapter boundaries in looking words in relationships.
Prov. 15:23
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Kevin Becker said:
I did some testing and it does appear that the boundaries are chapters.
Forgive the salty language of the example I used
The boundary is a chapter but not across chapters as your example seems to show because the highlighting comes from the two separate searches and not from your Filter. Try ἀλυπότερος AND <lemma = lbs/el/ἀναπληρόω> instead.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:Kevin Becker said:
I did some testing and it does appear that the boundaries are chapters.
Forgive the salty language of the example I used
The boundary is a chapter but not across chapters as your example seems to show because the highlighting comes from the two separate searches and not from your Filter. Try ἀλυπότερος AND <lemma = lbs/el/ἀναπληρόω> instead.
Dave, that example was to show that the filter didn't highlight the same terms highlighted by the individual searches because of the chapter boundary.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Kevin Becker said:fgh said:
I really dislike this "constricted by verse" idea. The verses aren't exactly part of the original text... Why should I risk missing an important search result simply because someone has put a verse number in the middle of a sentence?!
I agree. There should be a way to easily tell the search engine to cross verse and even chapter boundaries in looking words in relationships.
I don't mind the the Morph Visual Filter crossing verse boundaries but note that the chapter is the new boundary! The Bible VF is restricted to verse and this may be grounds for a bug or an inconsistent implementation!
Syntax Search can cross fixed boundaries because it uses grammatical structures but one has to accept reasonable boundaries for the text Search and VF in order to avoid meaningless/unrelated results with AND queries. Since the VF is visual I doubt that much would be gained by allowing results to cross chapter boundaries ie. do you then restrict the results to the Book and how far do you have to look for the related term (even with the Find for Filter Highlights)? Much the same applies to the text Search and the Results presentation will become similar to Basic Search eg. try a Basic Search on a bible using the Bible Text field so you at least get results where you expect them to be!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Todd Phillips said:
Dave, that example was to show that the filter didn't highlight the same terms highlighted by the individual searches because of the chapter boundary.
I was totally mislead by the statement "it does appear that the boundaries are chapters" + the lack of explanation! Stating that "the boundary is a chapter" would have better conveyed the intended meaning (to me at least!).
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
one has to accept reasonable boundaries for the text Search and VF in order to avoid meaningless/unrelated results with AND queries
Yes, but it would make far more sense, in my opinion, if AND translated as "within xx[x] words of", rather than being dependent upon someone's random idea of where sentences, verses and chapters begin and end. There are places where the chapter division comes in the middle of a thought. I don't want my searches restricted by something that isn't in the text itself, and I don't want a search engine to be the one that decides for me whether B belongs together with A or with C.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Dave Hooton said:
I don't mind the the Morph Visual Filter crossing verse boundaries but note that the chapter is the new boundary! The Bible VF is restricted to verse and this may be grounds for a bug or an inconsistent implementation!
I don't mind it too, that's why Is posted it as an observation. I did not post with the goal of having it changed but to alert others that this was the way it was functioning right now.
Dave Hooton said:Syntax Search can cross fixed boundaries because it uses grammatical structures but one has to accept reasonable boundaries for the text Search and VF in order to avoid meaningless/unrelated results with AND queries.
This is true, but in the case of proximity searches the verse/chapter limitation can be an issue. I agree with fgh's post on this matter.
Dave Hooton said:Since the VF is visual I doubt that much would be gained by allowing results to cross chapter boundaries ie. do you then restrict the results to the Book and how far do you have to look for the related term (even with the Find for Filter Highlights)? Much the same applies to the text Search and the Results presentation will become similar to Basic Search eg. try a Basic Search on a bible using the Bible Text field so you at least get results where you expect them to be!
In the post you quoted of me I had pivoted away from the visual filter and was speaking of search in general. If a chapter cuts a paragraph in half Logos' current implementation of the search engine limits what is possible to find.
Dave Hooton said:I was totally mislead by the statement "it
does appear that the boundaries are chapters" + the lack of explanation!
Stating that "the boundary is a chapter" would have better conveyed the
intended meaning (to me at least!).I apologize for my lack of clarity. I thought my quote of Todd provided enough context. I was specifically answering his question, although with enough provisional language to allow me to have missed something.
Prov. 15:23
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fgh said:
Yes, but it would make far more sense, in my opinion, if AND translated as "within xx[x] words of", rather than being dependent upon someone's random idea of where sentences, verses and chapters begin and end.
The logical AND/OR cannot be emaciated by those considerations which is why you have the choice of NEAR, WITHIN xx, BEFORE xx and AFTER xx. The bounds of a search should be an option eg. verse, chapter, article, bible book. Because you advocate proximity searches then By verse becomes the most limiting eg. @N NEAR @V goes from 53014 results by Verse to 55510 by chapter (Basic Search) in LGNTI.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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fgh said:
I really dislike this "constricted by verse" idea. The verses aren't exactly part of the original text... Why should I risk missing an important search result simply because someone has put a verse number in the middle of a sentence?!
You are being mild compared to my distaste for these new-fangled inventions![H] (Anything in the last 500 years or so is new fangled, isn't it?)
Seriously, I think anything other than sentence breaks can be misleading and, preferably, the sentence breaks in the underlying original text but I'll settle for the translation's sentences to e practical. Chapter rbeaks make no sense at all ad lectionary pericope boundaries are not sufficiently stable to provide a reasonable alternative. But the boundary could be arbitrarily set by pericope or outline - at least it would e defensible in a way that chapters are not.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Kevin Becker said:
If a chapter cuts a paragraph in half Logos' current implementation of the search engine limits what is possible to find.
Yes. I re-thought that. Limiting to adjacent chapters would be OK, but the whole (bible) book would be a better boundary.
Kevin Becker said:I apologize for my lack of clarity. I thought my quote of Todd provided enough context.
They say that a picture is worth a thousand words but miss the caveat "as long as you don't misinterpret what it's trying to show"[:D]
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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