Catholic perspective on atonement

Blair Laird
Blair Laird Member Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭
edited November 2024 in English Forum

I was looking for some resources that explain the catholic perspective on the doctrine of atonement. I am waiting for the Catholic dogma collection but it will be a few more days until released.

Comments

  • Damian McGrath
    Damian McGrath Member Posts: 3,050 ✭✭✭

    Blar, reading the Catholic Encyclopedia article online, it makes detailed reference to St Anslem - do you have his "Major Works", in which is found Cur Deus Homo?

    There's a little bit in Christian History 24 on Bernard of Clairvaux's view of atonement, esp. contra Abelard.

    The article "Redemption" in The New Dictionary of Theology deals with atonement.

     

  • Rosie Perera
    Rosie Perera Member Posts: 26,194 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The New Dictionary of Theology (Liturgical Press), a Catholic resource, for its entry on ATONEMENT refers the reader to the entry on REDEMPTION. There's quite a lengthy article there, so I think it would be improper for me to copy the whole thing here. The book is only available as a part of the Collegeville Catholic Reference Library.

    Here is a pertinent article from Aquinas's Summa Theologica (Third Part, Question XLVIII, Second Article [STh., III q.48 a.2]):  Note that he takes up the potential objections to the affirmative answer to the question first, and then argues the contrary.


    Whether christ’s passion brought about our salvation by way of atonement?


    We proceed thus to the Second Article:

    Objection 1. It seems that Christ’s Passion did not bring about our salvation by way of atonement. For it seems that to make the atonement devolves on him who commits the sin; as is clear in the other parts of penance, because he who has done the wrong must grieve over it and confess it. But Christ never sinned, according to 1 Pet. 2:22: Who did no sin. Therefore He made no atonement by His personal suffering.

    Obj. 2. Further, no atonement is made to another by committing a graver offence. But in Christ’s Passion the gravest of all offences was perpetrated, because those who slew Him sinned most grievously, as stated above (Q. XLVII., A. 6). Consequently it seems that atonement could not be made to God by Christ’s Passion.

    Obj. 3. Further, atonement implies equality with the trespass, since it is an act of justice. But Christ’s Passion does not appear equal to all the sins of the human race, because Christ did not suffer in His Godhead, but in His flesh, according to 1 Pet. 4:1: Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh. Now the soul, which is the subject of sin, “is of greater account” than the flesh. Therefore Christ did not atone for our sins by His Passion.

    On the contrary, It is written (Ps. 68:5) in Christ’s person: Then did I pay that which I took not away. But he has not paid who has not fully atoned. Therefore it appears that Christ by His suffering has fully atoned for our sins.

    I answer that, He properly atones for an offence who offers something which the offended one loves equally, or even more than he detested the offence. But by suffering out of love and obedience, Christ gave more to God than was required to compensate for the offence of the whole human race. First of all, because of the exceeding charity from which He suffered; secondly, on account of the dignity of His life which He laid down in atonement, for it was the life of One Who was God and man; thirdly, on account of the extent of the Passion, and the greatness of the grief endured, as stated above (Q. XLVI., A. 6). And therefore Christ’s Passion was not only a sufficient but a superabundant atonement for the sins of the human race; according to 1 John 2:2: He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

    Reply Obj. 1. The head and members are as one mystic person; and therefore Christ’s satisfaction belongs to all the faithful as being His members. Also, in so far as any two men are one in charity, the one can atone for the other, as shall be shown later (Supplement, Q. XIII., A. 2). But the same reason does not hold good of confession and contrition, because atonement consists in an outward action, for which helps may be used, among which friends are to be computed.

    Reply Obj. 2. Christ’s love was greater than His slayers’ malice: and therefore the value of His Passion in atoning surpassed the murderous guilt of those who crucified Him: so much so that Christ’s suffering was sufficient and superabundant atonement for His murderers’ crime.

    Reply Obj. 3. The dignity of Christ’s flesh is not to be estimated solely from the nature of flesh, but also from the Person assuming it—namely, inasmuch as it was God’s flesh, the result of which was that it was of infinite worth.


     



  • Blair Laird
    Blair Laird Member Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭

    Thanks guys.. Is there anyone that can explain this statement

    "Then did I pay that which I took not away. But he has not paid who has not fully atoned. Therefore it appears that Christ by His suffering has fully atoned for our sins"

    I am having a hard time understanding the reasoning behind the atonement of Christ.. So far my understanding is Christ did not come to pay for all sin, but to become a payment for sin.. Am I interpreting Catholic Theology properly?

  • Rosie Perera
    Rosie Perera Member Posts: 26,194 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks guys.. Is there anyone that can explain this statement

    "Then did I pay that which I took not away. But he has not paid who has not fully atoned. Therefore it appears that Christ by His suffering has fully atoned for our sins"

    I am having a hard time understanding the reasoning behind the atonement of Christ.. So far my understanding is Christ did not come to pay for all sin, but to become a payment for sin.. Am I interpreting Catholic Theology properly?

    I can't explain the theology behind it. First, I'd need to leave it to someone better versed in Catholic theology. But second, it could get into territory beyond which these forums are meant for (since anything where there are theological misunderstandings or disagreements could be contentious).

    But I can help decipher the text a little bit. The citation for that text ("Then did I pay that which I took not away") is Ps 68:5. But that verse in most of my Bibles says something else, so you might have been confused. However the versification and "chapterification" is different in some versions. I'm guessing Aquinas was referring to the Latin Vulgate. Anyway, if you look one chapter in either direction and one verse in either direction, you can often find the verse that's being referred to. That's what I did and I think it's what most of my Bibles call Psalm 69:4. The quote is only the last part of the verse. The Catholic Bibles I have in my Library translate the full verse variously as:

    The New Jerusalem Bible (Ps 69:4): "More numerous than the hairs of my head are those who hate me without reason. Those who seek to get rid of me are powerful, my treacherous enemies. (Must I give back what I have never stolen?)"

    The New American Bible (Ps 69:5): "More numerous than the hairs of my head / are those who hate me without cause. / Too many for my strength /  are my treacherous enemies. / Must I now restore / what I did not steal?"

    New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition (Ps 69:4): "More in number than the hairs of my head / are those who hate me without cause; / many are those who would destroy me, / my enemies who accuse me falsely. / What I did not steal / must I now restore?"

    Aquinas is using a syllogism:

    Premise 1: A person who has not fully atoned cannot have paid back.

    Premise 2: Jesus paid back (what he did not steal).  [the price for our sins]

    Conclusion (implied by premise 1 & premise 2): Therefore, Jesus fully atoned for our sins.

    That's how Aquinas argues it. I'm not defending his logic nor his conclusion, nor am I disagreeing with it, just explaining what I think he's getting at.

    Hope that helps you.

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    Part of the theological issue to me is whether or not the economic image of sin (debt to be paid) is the only or best image to use when analyzing the meaning of "atonement". Consider Anderson's analysis in Sin: A History. As far as I can see in the Catechism, the term "atonement" is only used once:

    "1992. Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has becomes the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men."

    Expiation tends to be the more Catholic term. Last year a read an excellent chapter on atonement by an Orthodox scholar whose position was well within Catholic theology. Too bad I can't remember where it was I read it.[:(] I don't think you'll find a single Catholic theology of atonement - you'll find a series of theological viewpoints all pointing imperfectly to a truth not fully understood.

    You could look at The Catholic Doctrine of Atonement - a historical study that has some noticeable bias at http://www.archive.org/stream/doctrineatonemen00oxenuoft#page/n49/mode/2up

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Blair Laird
    Blair Laird Member Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭

    I just found Morey (Journal of biblical apologetics 3).. I am still trying to weed through it to see if he explains it.. The problem I have with it, is I am reading the doctrine through his eyes, and not necessarily from a catholic perspective.. I was hoping to find a positive affirmation of the doctrine not a negative one from someone trying to refute it. 

  • Rich DeRuiter
    Rich DeRuiter MVP Posts: 6,729

    MJ. Smith said:

    I don't think you'll find a single Catholic theology of atonement . . .

    That was my response to the original question too, though it's been a while since I took a look at those theologies. I think there may be several official and historic Roman Catholic documents that explain the 'official' views, and the most recent would probably be the Vatican II documents (have there been any major statements since Vatican II? If so, please update me -- BTW, that would probably make a great Logos resource!).

    The one thing most American evangelicals don't understand is that the Roman Catholic "denomination" (they don't typically call themselves a "denomination"), is not centered in theological statements or theological assumptions. At least not in my reading or experience. We evangelicals find it odd, that there is such theological diversity among Roman Catholics, or simply assume that any 'official' statement is somehow definitive of the Roman Catholic view.

    Anyway, a bit of a side track, I suppose, but perhaps the original poster, may expand his search to include multiple understandings of the atonement by Roman Catholics.

     Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    is not centered in theological statements or theological assumptions. At least not in my reading or experience.

    I think you understand us. If I were to define Catholics excluding Scripture and Creed, I'd choose "as we pray so we believe" and "God became man that man could become God" .... which is why our evangelism always begins with "come and see".

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Rosie Perera
    Rosie Perera Member Posts: 26,194 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was hoping to find a positive affirmation of the doctrine not a negative one from someone trying to refute it. 

    You could try searching the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is available online in a searchable format here, for atonement. Search using the search box at the bottom of that page not the upper right (the latter just searches the website, not the contents of the CCC).

    There aren't very many mentions of atonement in it. I have a feeling that it's more of a Protestant/Evangelical term for what Catholics must call something else, perhaps Expiation. But here is one significant hit for atonement: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm#1992

     

    Here's another find, an excerpt from the Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli (both Catholic, professors in the philosophy department of Boston College, a Catholic institution):


    "The other Christian doctrine that addresses the problem of the unjust distribution of evil is the doctrine of vicarious atonement. Just as there is a solidarity in sin throughout the human race, there is also a solidarity in redemption. Just as the sins of the guilty can harm the innocent, so the sufferings and virtue of the innocent can help redeem the guilty.

    "It is these two central mysteries of solidarity that Ivan Karamazov rebels against in Dostoyevsky’s great novel The Brothers Karamazov. Ivan’s atheism is the deepest kind. He does not reject God as such, but he rejects God’s world. It is a world run by a divine justice that is too mysterious for his rationalistic mind; a world in which bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. Ivan’s brother is found guilty of a murder he did not commit but accepts his suffering anyway, while Ivan is not punished for a murder he was responsible for, and he cannot accept this.

    "Vicarious atonement means that even the sufferings that do not seem to do anyone any good, may do someone some good, may help atone for sin in some invisible way, through human solidarity. For the Redeemer was literally our brother, and his suffering saved his whole family. We can now share in Christ’s work and suffer for each other. Calvary was not a freak, an exception; it was the hub of the wheel, the center of the system, the trunk of the tree. (See Col 1:24.)"

  • Blair Laird
    Blair Laird Member Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭

    The one thing most American evangelicals don't understand is that the Roman Catholic "denomination" (they don't typically call themselves a "denomination"), is not centered in theological statements or theological assumptions.

    That is a bit difficult to grasp, I guess the difficulty arises because of my western systematic mindset.

  • Blair Laird
    Blair Laird Member Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:

    You know what we forgot http://books.logos.com/#q=atonement/49&content=/books/4662&tab=search Logos to the rescue! Book- Catholic perspective on atonement ...

    Thanks mj unfortunately I found that one a little hard to read, but it gave me a title to look for..

    EDIT: for those interested here is a little clearer copy of the book mj recommended

     

  • Rosie Perera
    Rosie Perera Member Posts: 26,194 ✭✭✭✭✭


    EDIT: for those interested here is a little clearer copy of the book mj recommended

    We don't have access to that Google Books copy. It says "No preview" for me. Did you get to that from a university library website that gave you access to it? Not that I'm looking to read that book, just pointing out that your link is not available to all.

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    because of my western systematic mindset.

    Come on, Latin rite Catholics are western, the inventors of the university, administrators of several excellent institutions of higher education. We have formed some excellent systematic theologians. From what I've observed on the forums, we are simply much more comfortable with "to the best of my current understanding" rather than "this is how it is".

    To take Richard's statement:

    The one thing most American evangelicals
    don't understand is that the Roman Catholic "denomination" (they don't
    typically call themselves a "denomination"), is not centered in
    theological statements or theological assumptions.

    and restate it as a Catholic:

    "The one thing most American Catholics don't understand is that the Evangelical are not centered in the presence of Jesus in worship and Word but rather centered in theological statements, interpretations and assumptions."

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    I found that one a little hard to read,

    now THAT is an understatement.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:

    "The one thing most American Catholics don't understand is that the Evangelical are not centered in the presence of Jesus in worship and Word but rather centered in theological statements, interpretations and assumptions."

    The Priests & parishioners in the Central USA are well acquainted with "Evangelicals" who meet in the literal presence of Jesus every time they gather for worship. [A]  We have very astute Catholics in Missouri, Kansas & Texas.

     

    And did not Comenius invent the idea of modern university?

     

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    Comenius invent the idea of modern university?

    I don't know how you define "modern" so I don't know. However, the major universities (Paris, Oxford, Cambridge ...) precede Comenius by 3 or 4 centuries. The Dominicans take credit for the idea of a university and their methods and requirements would meet my criteria for "medieval-to-modern".

    The Priests & parishioners in the Central USA are well acquainted with "Evangelicals" who meet in the literal presence of Jesus every time they gather for worship. Angel  We have very astute Catholics in Missouri, Kansas & Texas.

    I was deliberately modeling my statement after that of Richard to make my point ... the truth of the matter is that across a number of religious divides we sometimes use the same words to mean different things and sometime think they mean different things when they don't.. I'm highly qualified to speak of Catholics in Missouri, Kansas & Texas ... I was in Texas once for three days (which did not include a Sunday and was 40+ years ago). [that's tongue in check folks but I don't find the appropriate smilie]. (P.S. I was raised in a Campbellite church - I know a bit about evangelicals of some sorts)

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • nicky crane
    nicky crane Member Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭

    One of our Catholic Sisters said recently, apropos of something, "bought and paid for", which struck me as the equivalent of our evangelical "bought for a price".  Another, when talking about exorcism etc said:  "I don't know about you, but I believe in the power of the Precious Blood."  A priest with whom we were blessed during his sabbatical year said:  "I swant evryone to have a personal experience with God."  Admittedly another priest told me I couldn't approach Christ except through his mother, to which I took exception, tho evangelicals have criticised me harshly for my great respect for Mary.  It takes all sorts.  As an ANglican, I'm used to that, as we have everything from more Baptist than the Baptists to more Catholic than the Pope, from atheists to those who take the Bible considerably more literally than I do.  I do agree that the same language may mean very different things to different people, and not only between the denominations...

  • Robert Pavich
    Robert Pavich Member Posts: 5,685 ✭✭✭

    I"m guessing that the Catechism is NOT available in Logos.....shame....I would buy it for it's search capabilities....

    Robert Pavich

    For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

  • NetworkGeek
    NetworkGeek Member Posts: 3,791 ✭✭✭

    I'll offer a few points and resources:

    [quote] From Aquinas quote above -  "Then did I pay that which I took not away. But he has not paid who has not fully atoned. Therefore it appears that Christ by His suffering has fully atoned for our sins"

    "Then did I pay that which I took not away" - Christ paid for that which he didn't take away - rejection of God. So this means he paid for the rejection of God, which he did not participate in.

    "He has not paid who has not fully atoned." - Jesus did not personally atone as he has committed no sin, even though he is the one who paid.

    Therefore this means Christ paid for the rejection of God, but he who paid (Christ) did not personally reject God. Therefore, as Aquinas concludes, Christ atoned for our sins.

    In short, Catholic Church teaches that God the Father sent his Son act on our behalf, "for us" (Rom 5:6, 1 Cor 8:11, Gal 1:4), to reconcile humanity with God and one another (Eph 2:12-18). Christ effected the expiation of humanity's sinful guilt (Rom 3:25, 1 John 1:7), delivered us from evil (1 Pet 1:18-19), and brought a new covenant between God and humanity (Heb 4:14-10:39).

    The last part of the puzzle is why did Jesus do this, and there has been some debate on the issue.  The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus' act on our behalf was vicarious (fully as a substitute, not for any guilt of his own, and not to appease the Father). "On the Trinity" by Augustine, is a good resource that refutes the false opinion that Jesus' atonement was appeasing the anger of the Father toward humanity (in short, the theory that the Father was angry, sent his son, and then was appeased had some problems in Augustine's eyes, as he saw it as illogical: (1) unless the Father was already appeased, he would not have sent his son (2) Paul said that if God is for us, he will give us all things, implying the Father sent the Son out of love not out of anger). Augustine goes into great depth if this is an area that interests you.

    Also check out Council of Trent, #1545-63, out very soon in Logos format (in prepub now), or online. Other resources: "The Christian understanding of atonement" by F.W. Dillistone, and "The Atonement", by Martin Hengel. Two good encyclopedia resources not in Logos that you may want to consult are Modern Catholic Dictionary by John Hardon, SJ, and Encyclopedia of Catholicism edited by Richard McBrien.

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295 ✭✭✭

     I do agree that the same language may mean very different things to different people, and not only between the denominations...

    I can easily agree with a lot of people's "Statement of Faith" if I do not discuss the semantics at length. I attended political candidate school a few decades back and was instructed by Tom Cole (later RNC chairman and presently US Representative) "Do not state every specific issue you hold to, otherwise you alienate everyone else from your camp." So if ecumenical-ism works in the political realm, it should help matters among the religious camps to keep the semantics cloudy. [:D]

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Blair Laird
    Blair Laird Member Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:

    because of my western systematic mindset.

    Come on, Latin rite Catholics are western, the inventors of the university, administrators of several excellent institutions of higher education. We have formed some excellent systematic theologians. From what I've observed on the forums, we are simply much more comfortable with "to the best of my current understanding" rather than "this is how it is".

    To take Richard's statement:

    The one thing most American evangelicals
    don't understand is that the Roman Catholic "denomination" (they don't
    typically call themselves a "denomination"), is not centered in
    theological statements or theological assumptions.

    and restate it as a Catholic:

    "The one thing most American Catholics don't understand is that the Evangelical are not centered in the presence of Jesus in worship and Word but rather centered in theological statements, interpretations and assumptions."

    I thought university's originated from the philosophers.. [:D] Early philosphers attempted to find the unity in the diversity.. The schools started as early as 6th and 5th centuries BC. One of which being the school of Ionian, not the forget the Eleatic school. 

    I was not trying to put down catholic theology, or say that catholics are not systematic 

    God Bless

     

  • Blair Laird
    Blair Laird Member Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭

    We don't have access to that Google Books copy. It says "No preview" for me. Did you get to that from a university library website that gave you access to it? Not that I'm looking to read that book, just pointing out that your link is not available to all.

    That's weird because I have full access to that book.

    image

  • Blair Laird
    Blair Laird Member Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭

    Therefore this means Christ paid for the rejection of God, but he who paid (Christ) did not personally reject God. Therefore, as Aquinas concludes, Christ atoned for our sins.

    That is weird because I had a catholic tell me that Christ was not crucified to pay for sins but to become a ransom so that he could pay for the sins of those that believe. This was in context of there not being a double payment for sin, his point was that if Christ paid for all mens sins, then there is no legal reason why all men cannot go to heaven. I was looking for some official catholic resources that said this

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    I thought university's originated from the philosophers.. Big Smile Early philosphers attempted to find the unity in the diversity.. The schools started as early as 6th and 5th centuries BC. One of which being the school of Ionian, not the forget the Eleatic school.

    They certainly were influential if not durable. But trust me, I've never read a comprehensive history of education... if fact, I doubt I've ever read anything on educational history that was longer than a magazine article. But I have read a fascinating article on the testing procedure in Biblical studies for a Master's degree from the University of Paris in it's first couple of centuries. - fascinating insights into the foundations of medieval exegesis.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Blair Laird
    Blair Laird Member Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:

    I thought university's originated from the philosophers.. Big Smile Early philosphers attempted to find the unity in the diversity.. The schools started as early as 6th and 5th centuries BC. One of which being the school of Ionian, not the forget the Eleatic school.

    They certainly were influential if not durable. But trust me, I've never read a comprehensive history of education... if fact, I doubt I've ever read anything on educational history that was longer than a magazine article. But I have read a fascinating article on the testing procedure in Biblical studies for a Master's degree from the University of Paris in it's first couple of centuries. - fascinating insights into the foundations of medieval exegesis.

    I was listening to a series on Philosophy done by Dr. Sproul, and that is where I learned of it. 

     

  • NetworkGeek
    NetworkGeek Member Posts: 3,791 ✭✭✭


    That is weird because I had a catholic tell me that Christ was not crucified to pay for sins but to become a ransom so that he could pay for the sins of those that believe. This was in context of there not being a double payment for sin, his point was that if Christ paid for all mens sins, then there is no legal reason why all men cannot go to heaven. I was looking for some official catholic resources that said this

    Hi Blair, I would say that in Catholic teaching the word "ransom" doesn't fit because it is inconsistent with the vicarious nature of Jesus' atonement that I referred to above. If you read the Augustine reference I mentioned above, I would say that a ransom is more in line with the angry Father demanding retribution from Jesus which in Augustine's writings was illogical and inconsistent with his notion of the always-loving God.

    It is true Christ atoned for everyone's sins. However, the Catholic Church also teaches that every human has free will to accept or reject God, and by not turning to God, confessing our sinfulness and asking for his forgiveness we cannot be forgiven. From a common sense perspective, does someone forgive unsolicited, or does someone forgive in response to a request for forgiveness? Also, believing that we are all saved no matter what we do or not do implies we have no free will.  While we have no merit in our salvation, we can accept or reject God. This is also biblical; at least one example I can think of is David - Nathan the prophet told him God said he would die for his sins of the murder of Uriah and adultery, when David asked for forgiveness, God then said he would live. God does not forgive without us asking for forgiveness.

    Lastly, the Catholic Church teaches that we must acknowledge that hell exists, but we can pray that no one has ever gone there. Only God knows.

    As a postscript, like any religious belief, it's important to look at authoritative sources, as any individual can clearly steer you wrong - Catholics or other. That's why I always try and post resources for people to read and discern on your own. The Council of Trent documents I cited are the most authoritative of those references.

    Hope that helps!

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    That is weird because I had a catholic tell me that Christ was not crucified to pay for sins but to become a ransom so that he could pay for the sins of those that believe.

    As I said earlier, there are several images of sin/atonement  - ransom in the sense of paying for another's debt (usually family) was a common understanding in Judaism at the time of Christ. But it's not the only Biblical understanding.

    Christ paid for all mens sins, then there is no legal reason why all men cannot go to heaven.

    This would be a general Catholic position. Jesus' sacrifice is for all - but free will permits people to accept or reject the offer. The argument against universal salvation is not based on a limit in Jesus' sacrifice. To me the idea of a legal reason people cannot go to heaven is nonsensical because it implies limits on God. CCC616 is worded to emphasize the universal nature of the sacrifice (italics in the original) "The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all." CCC 606-618 may be your best bet for a reliable resource. Or did I misunderstand your question?

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128


    That is weird because I had a catholic tell me
    that Christ was not crucified to pay for sins but to become a ransom so
    that he could pay for the sins of those that believe. This was in
    context of there not being a double payment for sin, his point was that
    if Christ paid for all mens sins, then there is no legal reason why all
    men cannot go to heaven.
    I was looking for some official catholic
    resources that said this


    Doesn't the Catholic state he is playing devil's advocate at this point?

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • NetworkGeek
    NetworkGeek Member Posts: 3,791 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:


    I thought university's originated from the philosophers.. Big Smile Early philosophers attempted to find the unity in the diversity.. The schools started as early as 6th and 5th centuries BC. One of which being the school of Ionian, not the forget the Eleatic school.

    They certainly were influential if not durable. But trust me, I've never read a comprehensive history of education... if fact, I doubt I've ever read anything on educational history that was longer than a magazine article. But I have read a fascinating article on the testing procedure in Biblical studies for a Master's degree from the University of Paris in it's first couple of centuries. - fascinating insights into the foundations of medieval exegesis.


    Just a few notes, according to historian Lowrie Daly quoted in the book The Church in the Dark Ages, translated by Audrey Butler, universities began in Paris, Bologna, Oxford, and Cambridge around the latter half of the 12th century. They originated from Cathedral schools at Paris and Bologna, and informal gatherings of masters and students at the others. They defined university here as a core of required texts, where professors would lecture while adding their own insights. Academic programs were a fixed number of years, and degrees were granted. The recipient was called a master. There was an eventual separation of undergraduate and graduate schools, as there is today.

    By the time of the Reformation, 81 universities were established.  33 possessed a papal charter, 15 a royal or imperial charter, 20 possessed both, and 13 possessed none. Degrees could not be awarded without approbation of a pope, king, or emperor. For example, Pope Innocent IV in 1254 granted this privilege to Oxford University. Popes throughout the middle ages were responsible for intervention, protection, and other involvement in university matters.  The Church involvement in university life even influenced the type of scholarship, influencing approaches to intellectualism like the approaches used by Thomas Aquinas.

    There is much more to the story if you read about the beginnings of university life in the Middle Ages, but suffice it to say the historians have written a lot about the Church role in establishing and growing universities as the Scholastic Age that began around the 11th century.

  • NetworkGeek
    NetworkGeek Member Posts: 3,791 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:


    As I said earlier, there are several images of sin/atonement  - ransom in the sense of paying for another's debt (usually family) was a common understanding in Judaism at the time of Christ. But it's not the only Biblical understanding.

     

    As I quoted above, I don't think you will find Catholic teaching advocating a ransom motive in atonement, per Augustine's writings in the book I cited above. It flies in the face of the always loving God, and portrays a God who must be appeased.  But don't argue with me, read Augustine if you have an issue with that :-)

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    I was listening to a series on Philosophy done by Dr. Sproul, and that is where I learned of it. 

    Read the Wikipedia article "University" which gives a number of possible firsts - but does divorce the university from Greek philosophy schools.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    As I quoted above, I don't think you will find Catholic teaching advocating a ransom motive in atonement, per Augustine's writings in the book I cited above. It flies in the face of the always loving God, and portrays a God who must be appeased.  But don't argue with me, read Augustine if you have an issue with that :-)

    I was working from Anderson's Sin: a History in terms of Biblical images. Last I knew Augustine is post-Biblical. I don't think I'll take anyone on.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Rosie Perera
    Rosie Perera Member Posts: 26,194 ✭✭✭✭✭


    We don't have access to that Google Books copy. It says "No preview" for me. Did you get to that from a university library website that gave you access to it? Not that I'm looking to read that book, just pointing out that your link is not available to all.

    That's weird because I have full access to that book.

    image


    Oh, I see why. This is a Google eBook, and they're not available in Canada, even the free ones. Phooey!

    image

  • Blair Laird
    Blair Laird Member Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭

    Hi Blair, I would say that in Catholic teaching the word "ransom" doesn't fit because it is inconsistent with the vicarious nature of Jesus' atonement that I referred to above. If you read the Augustine reference I mentioned above, I would say that a ransom is more in line with the angry Father demanding retribution from Jesus which in Augustine's writings was illogical and inconsistent with his notion of the always-loving God.

    It is true Christ atoned for everyone's sins. However, the Catholic Church also teaches that every human has free will to accept or reject God, and by not turning to God, confessing our sinfulness and asking for his forgiveness we cannot be forgiven. From a common sense perspective, does someone forgive unsolicited, or does someone forgive in response to a request for forgiveness? Also, believing that we are all saved no matter what we do or not do implies we have no free will.  While we have no merit in our salvation, we can accept or reject God. This is also biblical; at least one example I can think of is David - Nathan the prophet told him God said he would die for his sins of the murder of Uriah and adultery, when David asked for forgiveness, God then said he would live. God does not forgive without us asking for forgiveness.

    Lastly, the Catholic Church teaches that we must acknowledge that hell exists, but we can pray that no one has ever gone there. Only God knows.

    As a postscript, like any religious belief, it's important to look at authoritative sources, as any individual can clearly steer you wrong - Catholics or other. That's why I always try and post resources for people to read and discern on your own. The Council of Trent documents I cited are the most authoritative of those references.

    Hope that helps!

    Yes, that was very helpful! I had never heard the teaching before, so I wanted to actually check., and see catholic authority said on it.

     

  • Blair Laird
    Blair Laird Member Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:


    That is weird because I had a catholic tell me
    that Christ was not crucified to pay for sins but to become a ransom so
    that he could pay for the sins of those that believe. This was in
    context of there not being a double payment for sin, his point was that
    if Christ paid for all mens sins, then there is no legal reason why all
    men cannot go to heaven.
    I was looking for some official catholic
    resources that said this


    Doesn't the Catholic state he is playing devil's advocate at this point?

    That I am not aware of.. I've got catholic resources on Pre-pub and  Cp, but none available to be at this point. I am completely ignorant of what the Rc teaches, but hopefully that will change..

     

  • Blair Laird
    Blair Laird Member Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:

    I was listening to a series on Philosophy done by Dr. Sproul, and that is where I learned of it. 

    Read the Wikipedia article "University" which gives a number of possible firsts - but does divorce the university from Greek philosophy schools.

    I read it before I posted about philosophy, I was saddened to see they did not mention it. 

  • Blair Laird
    Blair Laird Member Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭

    Oh, I see why. This is a Google eBook, and they're not available in Canada, even the free ones. Phooey!

    Here is the pdf format of the book. If you would rather have e-pub I can upload it for you in that format also

    0882.Catholic_dogma.pdf

  • Rosie Perera
    Rosie Perera Member Posts: 26,194 ✭✭✭✭✭


    Oh, I see why. This is a Google eBook, and they're not available in Canada, even the free ones. Phooey!

    Here is the pdf format of the book. If you would rather have e-pub I can upload it for you in that format also

    0882.Catholic_dogma.pdf


    Thanks. As I mentioned I'm not interested in reading this book, just was curious why it wasn't available to everyone, and now I've got my answer. And I learned something new (about the existence of Google eBooks) in the process. I'm always glad for more ways to get eBook content, but for now these aren't available to us up in Canada. Hope they find a way to fix that soon.

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    That I am not aware of..

    From the link you provided - bold added.:

    "But if every man's sins have already been paid in full (since Christ
    already suffered the punishment for them), then what legal reason does
    God have for keeping anyone out of Heaven?  What?  Will He send millions
    of people to Hell who have already had their sins paid in full?  I am
    playing the devil's advocate here
    , but that is something like what James
    White would say."

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    I read it before I posted about philosophy, I was saddened to see they did not mention it. 

    They  are covered under:

    "Ancient higher-learning institutions which give learning an
    institutional framework date back to ancient times and can be found in
    many cultures. These ancient centres were typically institutions of philosophical education and religious instruction. They are to be distinguished from the modern Western-style university which is an organizational form originating in medieval Europe and adopted in other world regions since the onset of modern times (see list of oldest universities in continuous operation)" ....

    The Pandidakterion of Constantinople, founded as an institution of higher learning in 425 and reorganized as a corporation of students in 849 by the regent Bardas of emperor Michael III,
    is considered by some to be the earliest institution of higher learning
    with some of the characteristics we associate today with a university
    (research and teaching, auto-administration, academic independence, et
    cetera). If a university is defined as "an institution of higher
    learning" then it is preceded by several others, including the Academy
    that it was founded to compete with and eventually replaced. If the
    original meaning of the word is considered "a corporation of students"
    then this could be the first example of such an institution

    I knew I'd seen it somewhere ... the bold is the wiki article title.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Blair Laird
    Blair Laird Member Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:

    That I am not aware of..

    From the link you provided - bold added.:

    "But if every man's sins have already been paid in full (since Christ
    already suffered the punishment for them), then what legal reason does
    God have for keeping anyone out of Heaven?  What?  Will He send millions
    of people to Hell who have already had their sins paid in full?  I am
    playing the devil's advocate here
    , but that is something like what James
    White would say."

    Duh.. I should have caught that [:D] sorry..

     

  • Blair Laird
    Blair Laird Member Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:

    I read it before I posted about philosophy, I was saddened to see they did not mention it. 

    They  are covered under:

    "Ancient higher-learning institutions which give learning an
    institutional framework date back to ancient times and can be found in
    many cultures. These ancient centres were typically institutions of philosophical education and religious instruction. They are to be distinguished from the modern Western-style university which is an organizational form originating in medieval Europe and adopted in other world regions since the onset of modern times (see list of oldest universities in continuous operation)" ....

    The Pandidakterion of Constantinople, founded as an institution of higher learning in 425 and reorganized as a corporation of students in 849 by the regent Bardas of emperor Michael III,
    is considered by some to be the earliest institution of higher learning
    with some of the characteristics we associate today with a university
    (research and teaching, auto-administration, academic independence, et
    cetera). If a university is defined as "an institution of higher
    learning" then it is preceded by several others, including the Academy
    that it was founded to compete with and eventually replaced. If the
    original meaning of the word is considered "a corporation of students"
    then this could be the first example of such an institution

    I knew I'd seen it somewhere ... the bold is the wiki article title.

    Ahhh. I see...thanks for posting that