Apple outlawing content sold outside of their service

http://www.pcworld.com/article/218363/apple_rejects_sony_reader_app_says_report.html

"Apple reportedly told Sony, among other app developers, that Apple would
no longer allow downloadable content to be sold within an iOS app
unless it used Apple's in-app payment system. Apple also reportedly
said the developers could no longer sell content outside an app and then
allow users to download it to an iOS device later."

Wondering how this impacts the logos app? I'm almost ready to buy an iPad and having access on my iPhone and future iPad was a big reason for me to upgrade to logos 4.

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Comments

Philana Crouch

It shouldn't impact it at all. You don't buy resources within the app. You purchase it online and it syncs the license with your desktop, iPad. Your ability to access resources within the app is based upon your Logos ID and password.

Mark Carey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/217563#Comment_217563

Actually they are also blocking access to content sold outside of the device as well, see the second sentence of the quote. I just noticed there is another thread on this already:

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/29373.aspx

Tony Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/217565#Comment_217565

This could really be bad!!!!!!!!!

Garrett Ho

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/217588#Comment_217588

These strongly worded titles are misleading. Read up on it, think about it, and see that there is no reason to overreact.

From techcrunch, here is the apple spokesperson's explanation:

“We have not changed our developer terms or guidelines. We are now requiring that if an app offers customers the ability to purchase books outside of the app, that the same option is also available to customers from within the app with in-app purchase.”

http://techcrunch.com/2011/02/01/apple-nothing-has-changed-except-for-this-one-thing/

So if Apple does ever enforce the rule against Logos, all that would be required to do would be to add an in-app purchase option *in addition* to the web/email/phone purchase option. They could even make it much more expensive to purchase in-app to offset the cut that Apple takes, and drive everyone to use the current web/email/phone.

Take a deep breath. The sky is not falling.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/217589#Comment_217589

“We have not changed our developer terms or guidelines. We are now requiring ...”

From the Apple spokesperson's own words, they're at best ambiguous and at worst disingenuous. Like the propaganda from 1984, "War is peace."

In Apple's defense, it's their platform. They can do what they want. It sure would be great to get 25+% of iPhone / iPod Touch / iPad users to boycott the App Store for a month just to show Apple we're paying attention.

Donnie

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/217589#Comment_217589

So if Apple does ever enforce the rule against Logos, all that would be required to do would be to add an in-app purchase option *in addition* to the web/email/phone purchase option.

That's certainly not a trivial addition. Also from that article, it seems that Apple will be demanding a cut of the in-app purchase fees. (30%?)

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/217596#Comment_217596

Learned Sony does in-app purchasing on Mac and PC using their Reader Library software => http://ebookstore.sony.com/howitworks/ which would be a violation of Apple's iOS guidance that all in-app purchasing use Apple iTunes.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Mark Carey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/217594#Comment_217594

Apple does need to tread carefully as this could very easily cause Government investigation the same as when they decided that all dev must be done with their approved programming languages. They ultimately backed down after that investigation was opened.

Michael McLane

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/217589#Comment_217589

Take a deep breath. The sky is not falling.

Garrett has it right. Nothing has changed in the developer guidelines. There is nothing new here. All Apple is saying is that if you want to do in app purchases you have to use the IAP API. Additionally, if you are going to send consumers to another place to do the purchasing (device web browser, for instance) that you also provide an in app purchase option as well. This is no threat to the mobile Logos experience.

Tony Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/217634#Comment_217634

From Reuters:

"Apple
requires apps that let customers buy books outside the app to offer the
option to buy books through Apple's system, a spokeswoman said. Apple's developer guidelines say that apps
using a system other than in-app purchase to buy 'content,
functionality, or services in an app will be rejected.' "

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/01/us-apple-media-idUSTRE7108RT20110201

Tony Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/217699#Comment_217699

From Wired:

"Apple also allegedly told Sony that the app couldn’t access content
purchased on other Sony Reader devices, which is where most of the
outrage was focused. Amazon’s Kindle app and Barnes & Noble’s Nook
app are both popular mechanisms for users to download and read books
that they have purchased from the respective stores. Many feared that
this supposed change in Apple policy would take their e-books away from
their iPads, iPhones and iPod touches."

http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/02/apple-cut-of-e-book-sales/

Anonymous

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/217745#Comment_217745

I always figured Logos app would eventually be pulled because of the nature of the content (homosexuality is a sin, Islam is evil, or something like that since that also violates Apple's policy). Whether it's the content's content or the fact it is purchased outside Apple, I think the Logos app's days are numbered.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/220556#Comment_220556

I always figured Logos app would eventually be pulled because of the nature of the content (homosexuality is a sin, Islam is evil, or something like that since that also violates Apple's policy). Whether it's the content's content or the fact it is purchased outside Apple, I think the Logos app's days are numbered.

Apple sells many books through iBooks including ones that might be described as homophobic, Apple has rejected some apps that they have deemed hate promoting. But Apple is searching to broaden it's print media not restrict it. Sony was trying to sell it;s books in app, that is a no-no... amazon kindle, barns and noble all go externally to the web from the app to sell. Apple might shot itself in the foot, but I have said it before and will say it again this would be a big death nail in iPads coffin if it happened, iOs is all about content if content is limited it will be the biggest boost to Android and WebOS tablets ever. I have called Apple and while I didn't speak to someone high up in the company I was assured that apple had no plans to change things on the iOS beyond subscriptions, if you have a newspaper app that isn't free, apple wants a cut of it... NY TIMES I believe had an app and was selling subscriptions externally Apple told them to make it free or to allow profit sharing. Apple is a smart company, they have a head start with the iPAD but if content gets limited people will go elsewhere even if they have to pay more for less.

-Dan

Pastor Rick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/220556#Comment_220556

It is not worth getting too stressed out about. I love my Ipad and its utilization of the Logos app, but if Apple decides to interfere with that usage, then my Ipad hits Ebay and it will be the last Apple product I purchase. Until that happens, I will enjoy my Ipad and the Logos app.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/221433#Comment_221433

Here's a recent article that might indicate retailers are not going to put up with Apple's new policy:

http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/16/technology/rhapsody_apple_subscriptions/index.htm?hpt=T2

Anonymous

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/221668#Comment_221668

My understanding is that Apple is requiring that if you make content available in an app that is sold from outside the app, you must do the following:

1) Also allow that content to be sold in-app through the iStore at the same price

2) Not give any link in-app to ways of buying the content out -of-app

3) Restrict in-app purchases to only be available on an iOs device.

(gleaned from a number of articles and blogs I read over the last few days). If correct, this seems rather draconian.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/221703#Comment_221703

My understanding is that Apple is requiring that if you make content available in an app that is sold from outside the app, you must do the following:

1) Also allow that content to be sold in-app through the iStore at the same price

2) Not give any link in-app to ways of buying the content out -of-app

3) Restrict in-app purchases to only be available on an iOs device.

(gleaned from a number of articles and blogs I read over the last few days). If correct, this seems rather draconian.

Concur with understanding - Apple wants to create convenient electronic store for all digital content using Apple mobile devices that has over 100,000,000 million shoppers. If consumer choses easy one click purchase in-app on Apple device, then Apple wants 30 % cut. If consumer chooses external purchase, Apple gets nothing.

With Apple's 30 % cut, content publishers need 42.86 % more in app sales to receive same revenue (e.g. publisher's 21 sales of $ 10 = $ 210 would need 30 sales of $ 10 on an Apple device for same $ 210 revenue).

Keep Smiling [:)]

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/221706#Comment_221706

Mac World article compares Apple book content pricing model with couple others => http://www.macworld.com/article/157945/2011/02/app_store_subscriptions.html

If publishing own book, Apple offers most revenue.

Only content competitor with smaller cut is Google's recently announced One Pass => http://www.businessinsider.com/google-one-pass-2011-2 - article notes "Google One Pass will be powered by Google's payment system, Checkout, which has not exactly drawn rave reviews in the past."

Keep Smiling [:)]

Jeff Causey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/221703#Comment_221703

My understanding is that Apple is requiring that if you make content available in an app that is sold from outside the app, you must do the following:

1) Also allow that content to be sold in-app through the iStore at the same price

2) Not give any link in-app to ways of buying the content out -of-app

3) Restrict in-app purchases to only be available on an iOs device.

(gleaned from a number of articles and blogs I read over the last few days). If correct, this seems rather draconian.

Don't 1 and 3 contradict each other? Or if not contradict, aren't they working against each other?

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/221759#Comment_221759

My understanding is that Apple is requiring that if you make content available in an app that is sold from outside the app, you must do the following:

1) Also allow that content to be sold in-app through the iStore at the same price

2) Not give any link in-app to ways of buying the content out -of-app

3) Restrict in-app purchases to only be available on an iOs device.

(gleaned from a number of articles and blogs I read over the last few days). If correct, this seems rather draconian.

Don't 1 and 3 contradict each other? Or if not contradict, aren't they working against each other?

Apologies - personally misread # 3 as Restrict in-app purchases to Apple's store on an iOS device [:$]

Apple rejected Sony's book reader application since Sony included their own in app purchasing, not Apple's.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Anonymous

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/221766#Comment_221766

The way I understand it, content purchased in-app may not be made available outside the iOs device.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/221772#Comment_221772

The way I understand it, content purchased in-app may not be made available outside the iOs device.

Apple's press release http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/02/15appstore.html does not include content restriction outside iOS devices.

Some iOS applications choose to have content only available on iOS devices.

One business response to purchasing digital content using Apple's in app store is limiting content use to iOS devices so consumers need to pay more to use on other platforms. However, if consumer purchases digital content directly from publisher, content could be freely used on iOS and other devices.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Jeff Causey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/221781#Comment_221781

Apple's press release http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/02/15appstore.html does not include content restriction outside iOS devices.

Some iOS applications choose to have content only available on iOS devices.

One business response to purchasing digital content using Apple's in app store is limiting content use to iOS devices so consumers need to pay more to use on other platforms. However, if consumer purchases digital content directly from publisher, content could be freely used on iOS and other devices.

Keep Smiling

If I'm reading the press release correctly, this only applies to subscriptions? Not necessarily to content purchased on a "permanent" basis?

Sounds very much like the iTunes model before the market forced Apple to start offering non-DRMed music.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/221766#Comment_221766

Regardless of what they mean by what they are doing now, it is disconcerting to me what they may decide to do in the future. What they are doing now tells us a lot about the extent to which they may be willing to go in the future.

Wes Saad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/221772#Comment_221772

The way I understand it, content purchased in-app may not be made available outside the iOs device.

The following comes straight from Apple's developer license agreement (emphasis on the last line added by me):

Attachment 2 (to the Agreement) Additional Terms for Use of the In App Purchase API

The following terms are in addition to the terms of the Agreement and apply to any use of the In App Purchase API in Your Application:

1. Use of the In App Purchase API

1.1 You may use the In App Purchase API only to enable end users to purchase content, functionality, or services that You make available for use within Your Application (e.g. digital books, additional game levels, access to a turn-by-turn map service). You may not use the In App Purchase API to offer goods or services to be used outside of Your Application.

Earlier in the doc:

3.3.3 Without Apple’s prior written approval or as permitted under Section 3.3.23 (In App Purchase API), an Application may not provide, unlock or enable additional features or functionality through distribution mechanisms other than the App Store.

I don't know that this section would apply to something like Logos since we aren't exactly talking features and functionality, but it seems it could apply that companies can receive permission from Apple to enable access to content purchased outside of the app. But, the first quote above certainly indicates that anything purchased through iOS is supposed to stay in iOS. I would guess that this would be to prevent people from writing iOS apps that facilitate illegal activities, so leeway may be given to legitimate digital content providers.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/221919#Comment_221919

The way I understand it, content purchased in-app may not be made available outside the iOs device.

The following comes straight from Apple's developer license agreement (emphasis on the last line added by me):

Attachment 2 (to the Agreement) Additional Terms for Use of the In App Purchase API

The following terms are in addition to the terms of the Agreement and apply to any use of the In App Purchase API in Your Application:

1. Use of the In App Purchase API

1.1 You may use the In App Purchase API only to enable end users to purchase content, functionality, or services that You make available for use within Your Application (e.g. digital books, additional game levels, access to a turn-by-turn map service). You may not use the In App Purchase API to offer goods or services to be used outside of Your Application.

Earlier in the doc:

3.3.3 Without Apple’s prior written approval or as permitted under Section 3.3.23 (In App Purchase API), an Application may not provide, unlock or enable additional features or functionality through distribution mechanisms other than the App Store.

I don't know that this section would apply to something like Logos since we aren't exactly talking features and functionality, but it seems it could apply that companies can receive permission from Apple to enable access to content purchased outside of the app. But, the first quote above certainly indicates that anything purchased through iOS is supposed to stay in iOS. I would guess that this would be to prevent people from writing iOS apps that facilitate illegal activities, so leeway may be given to legitimate digital content providers.

Observation: from a contractual perspective, since content not included in outside restriction line in 1.1, Apple is not restricting digital content purchased on an iOS device to only be accessed on an iOS device. Appears Apple does not want in app purchasing to be used for eBay, Craigslist, etc.

For section 3.3.3, appears Apple restricting in app purchasing of features and functionality to the App Store; albeit providing developers a documented process for exceptions.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/221889#Comment_221889

Apple's press release http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/02/15appstore.html does not include content restriction outside iOS devices.

Some iOS applications choose to have content only available on iOS devices.

One business response to purchasing digital content using Apple's in app store is limiting content use to iOS devices so consumers need to pay more to use on other platforms. However, if consumer purchases digital content directly from publisher, content could be freely used on iOS and other devices.

Keep Smiling

If I'm reading the press release correctly, this only applies to subscriptions? Not necessarily to content purchased on a "permanent" basis?

Sounds very much like the iTunes model before the market forced Apple to start offering non-DRMed music.

iPhone Development Blog includes descriptions of 3 section 11 additions to Apple App Store review guidelines => http://iphoneincubator.com/blog/

Summarizing: Apple added guideline 11.12 for subscriptions, 11.13 for in app purchasing, and 11.14 for removing links to web store. Reading blog by an iOS developer, appears in app purchasing now required for all digital content on Apple's iOS devices.

Observation: not know how Apple will enforce new guidelines 11.13 and 11.14 - third blog option is intriguing - wonder if Apple would approve application(s) that comply with 11.14, but not 11.13

Previous Apple iOS App Store review guidelines available => http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/files/app-store-guidelines.pdf - section 11 ended with guideline 11.11

Concerning non-DRM music, wikipedia article => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management includes "Apple's Steve Jobs has called on the music industry to eliminate DRM in an open letter titled Thoughts on Music.^[19]" - following link noted Apple was sued over DRM usage restrictions couple years earlier.

Keep Smiling Smile

Jeff Causey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/221948#Comment_221948

Suppose I am a developer of Palm Reader software. I produce an application for the desktop called Palm Reader Desktop. This let's me buy pics of palms and I use the software to hone up my palm reading skills. I can do things like markup the pics, make notes, etc.

My users want an iOS app so they can practice reading palms while away from their desktop. The only thing they do is view the pics - they don't mark them up, make notes, etc. It is a slimmed down, limited functionality version of the desktop application. So I develop such an app. Using a login in the app, they can access the same palm pics they purchased for the Desktop version on their iOS device.

Now Apple has said that any content purchased outside the app (like through Palm Reader Desktop), but made available in the app, has to also be made available for purchase through the app as well. This means that I now have to add that functionality to the app (or replace it if I was using some alternative).

OK, costly and not where I wanted to go with the app, but do-able.

Now that I've added the functionality, suppose I have a user who buys a pic of Napolean's palm through the iOS app. Can they sync that back to the Palm Reader Desktop? It appears no since the Palm Reader Desktop enables additional features or functionality using the content the user purchased via the iOS app. Hmm, that's a problem. If they had purchased it through the Desktop, we'd be ok. But since they purchased it through the iOS app, we're not. Seems like my alternatives are to seek a waiver from Apple or build out the iOS app to have all the same features and functionality of the Desktop version. Are there others?

So the above scenario is based on where I think the conversation has taken us to this point. Where/what are my mistakes?

Wes Saad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/221999#Comment_221999

Where/what are my mistakes?

Your mistake is in using a Palm Reader app as your example. I spent half the post thinking you were talking about some HP Palm device or software! [:D]

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222001#Comment_222001

Where/what are my mistakes?

Your mistake is in using a Palm Reader app as your example. I spent half the post thinking you were talking about some HP Palm device or software!

Observation: in April 2010, HP bought Palm, renamed Palm OS to WebOS => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebOS

Now that I've added the functionality, suppose I have a user who buys a pic of Napolean's palm through the iOS app. Can they sync that back to the Palm Reader Desktop? It appears no since the Palm Reader Desktop enables additional features or functionality using the content the user purchased via the iOS app. Hmm, that's a problem. If they had purchased it through the Desktop, we'd be ok. But since they purchased it through the iOS app, we're not. Seems like my alternatives are to seek a waiver from Apple or build out the iOS app to have all the same features and functionality of the Desktop version. Are there others?

Disclaimer - not a lawyer - hence offering speculation after reading lots of words at Apple's iTunes Store - Terms and Conditions => http://www.apple.com/legal/itunes/us/terms.html#APPS

If Palm Reader iOS application offers minute of illumination for purchase (consumable item) - purchase restricted to 1 device, non-replaceable, and gone after use (e.g. beautiful light and sound effects for a minute). Can buy another minute of illumination using in app purchase (after iTunes password entered, have 15 minutes to tap purchases).

If Palm Reader iOS application offers rental of moving illumination, viewing limited to that iOS device until rental period expires.

For individuals, Palm Reader iOS application restricted to maximum of 5 iOS devices authorized for use.

Since Palm Reader is a Third Party to Apple, content purchases in app would be subject to Palm Reader's (Third Party) end user license agreement.

Appears Palm Reader's lawyers have 3 options for pic purchase license agreement in iOS application:

1) Free for use in desktop application (albeit Palm Reader received 70 % of purchase price)

2) Offer discount for desktop purchase (e.g. 70 % - Palm Reader gets same revenue for pic; but consumer paid 130% for pic use on both platforms)

3) Restrict iOS pic purchases to iOS devices; require full purchase amount for desktop use.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Tony Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/222041#Comment_222041

Here are some more developments to check out (for those still interested):

http://technologizer.com/2011/02/05/apple-ipad-iphone-kindle/

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/mobiles/kindle-app-for-iphone-and-ipad-may-get-webby-to-avoid-apples-new-rules-50002913/

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1000579091

http://kindleworld.blogspot.com/

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/224791#Comment_224791

Here are some more developments to check out (for those still interested):

Concur web only delivery is a response for Apple in-app purchasing - wonder about future sales impact ?

Likewise learned Google has similar in-app purchasing rules as Apple => http://www.mediabistro.com/thinkmobile/google-has-similar-in-app-purchasing-rules-as-apple_b11202 - could affect upcoming Logos Android application

Google blocked free application upgrade from Android market => http://www.rethink-wireless.com/2011/02/25/google-tough-in-app-purchasing.htm

Keep Smiling [:)]