Bible reference searches in non-Bible resources

I am trying to find a way to reliably find all instances of a particular Bible reference in resources with links to Bible verses. Nothing I have tried reliably finds all instances of a reference, even though the references are marked as Bible links.

For example, I have tried a search for <Bible = 1 John 2:28> in Daniel Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics. It only returns once match (p. 465), which is in a footnote. But the search misses two instances on p 525, which are a range of passages in the form 2:28-3:10 and 2:28-3:3.

I would like to see the Bible search feature work properly with a range of passages, so I could find a specific verse within the range. If I search for <Bible = 1 John 2:28> it should find a reference to 1 John 2:20-29.

Unfortunately, this particular book is missing the Scripture index found in the print edition, so I find myself going to the print edition to find Scripture passages.

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spitzerpl

What happens if you just try searching for 1 John 2:28 without anything else.

Kevin Becker

Harry, the syntax is important

<Bible = 1 John 2:28> will only return a hit of 1 John 2:28. You can shorten it to <=1 John 2:28>

<Bible ~ 1 John 2:28> will return the range 1 John 2:20-29. You can shorten it to <1 John 2:28>

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233673#Comment_233673

Actually Kevin, try it, Harry is right. I even tried <Bible ~ 1 John 2:28> and it still returns only 1 result and misses the two on pg. 525.

Something else is going on, Hmm....

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233685#Comment_233685

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233685#Comment_233685

Actually Kevin, try it, Harry is right. I even tried <Bible ~ 1 John 2:28> and it still returns only 1 result and misses the two on pg. 525.

Something else is going on, Hmm....

I don't have the resource so I can't check. Is it possible that the two errant citations are not correctly linked to 1 John but rather to John or some other location?

I have run into that in other places as an issue.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233685#Comment_233685

Actually Kevin, try it, Harry is right. I even tried <Bible ~ 1 John 2:28> and it still returns only 1 result and misses the two on pg. 525.

Something else is going on, Hmm....

Huh, my comment on syntax stands though. There must be some bug in this resource. I wonder if it has something to do with the way that Galaxie tagged it.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233690#Comment_233690

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233691#Comment_233691

You may have it there Kevin, I was trying to think of a way to track thsi down. Should we make a new thread citing BUG or ....?

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233691#Comment_233691

Kevin, (or others) What happens when you click that link? Does it jump to a location in Wallaces grammar or to the Bible? If it jumps in the grammar than I'd wager that's the cause of the problem.

I agree that the "stacking" of the reference appears oddly done to me, and I can't remember seeing it done that way - though the "Bible" link just below that should be correct.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233696#Comment_233696

Does it jump to a location in Wallaces grammar or to the Bible? If it jumps in the grammar than I'd wager that's the cause of the problem.

The Wallace link jumps to the top of the section of the grammar this link is found in.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233697#Comment_233697

I may misunderstand the question, but when I click on "2:28-3:3 in Wallace it goes to my default Bible. And hovering shows the Bible text. Is that what you mean?

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233697#Comment_233697

I just found another range that this problem doesn't show up in. (Acts 4:29-30 on page 598; a search for <Bible ~ Acts 4:29> finds it, the "link stacking" is still there but I noticed that it shows up not matter where you click, even on an untagged word, it's like a headword). There must be something wrong behind the scenes that we can't figure out through the interface.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233697#Comment_233697

Does it jump to a location in Wallaces grammar or to the Bible? If it jumps in the grammar than I'd wager that's the cause of the problem.

The Wallace link jumps to the top of the section of the grammar this link is found in.

I suspect that explains the problem. It's not a Bible link, even if it looks like one.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233702#Comment_233702

I may misunderstand the question, but when I click on "2:28-3:3 in Wallace it goes to my default Bible. And hovering shows the Bible text. Is that what you mean?

No, we were talking about the GGBTB link/reference

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233702#Comment_233702

I may misunderstand the question, but when I click on "2:28-3:3 in Wallace it goes to my default Bible. And hovering shows the Bible text. Is that what you mean?

Yes I meant what happens when you click on the link. I think this is a bug in the resource.

Louis St. Hilaire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233707#Comment_233707

The "Reference" is just the active reference for this section, not something specific to your selection, which appears to be tagged and functioning correctly as a Bible reference.

From comparing this to surrounding references, I think the actual reason these aren't being caught is that "~" excludes references that span chapters. I'm assuming this is by design to avoid picking up broad references like "1 Jn 2-5" (similar to "in" or %narrow-intersect% in Libronix).

<bible superset 1 Jn 2:28> appears to get all references you're looking for.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233717#Comment_233717

Thanks Louis! I wondered about the Bible span but didn't know about superset. I'll check it out!

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233717#Comment_233717

Thanks Louis, is there a character that is short for superset?

More importantly would it be possible to get a developer to look at this. In some cases where a chapter break is poorly placed this is a serious search limitation! Perhaps if the ~ could include adjacent chapters where the Bible reference had a specific end verse.

Louis St. Hilaire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233730#Comment_233730

I'll ask whether this is actually what was intended. As I noted, the function appears to be the same as %narrow-intersect% in Libronix. If the reason for this is really just to exlude overly broad chapter-level ranges, then it seems like references that specify a verse and only span a single chapter are precise enough to be included by "~".

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233730#Comment_233730

Thanks Louis, is there a character that is short for superset?

More importantly would it be possible to get a developer to look at this. In some cases where a chapter break is poorly placed this is a serious search limitation! Perhaps if the ~ could include adjacent chapters where the Bible reference had a specific end verse.

It's a similar problem to L3 in that Passage Guide searches need to be specific as possible. I Jn 2:28-3:3 is less likely to produce a meaningful article on 1 Jn 2:28 than 1 Jn 2:29, which the default <1 Jn 2:28> would find. So <superset 1 Jn 2:28> is appropriate for this case (see 1. References).

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233751#Comment_233751

I'll ask whether this is actually what was intended. As I noted, the function appears to be the same as %narrow-intersect% in Libronix. If the reason for this is really just to exlude overly broad chapter-level ranges, then it seems like references that specify a verse and only span a single chapter are precise enough to be included by "~".

Thanks!

Nord Zootman

It's too bad that they left the scripture index out of this version.. I have this in a different software and it is included there.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/234123#Comment_234123

It's too bad that they left the scripture index out of this version.

What do you mean?

Nord Zootman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/234236#Comment_234236

The original post said "Unfortunately, this particular book is missing the Scripture index found
in the print edition, so I find myself going to the print edition to
find Scripture passages" I don't have this in LOGOS so I can't verify that, but it appears that they did not include the index (presumably because it can be searched). At least one other company includes the index in their digital copy.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/234239#Comment_234239

The original post said "Unfortunately, this particular book is missing the Scripture index found
in the print edition, so I find myself going to the print edition to
find Scripture passages"

You can click the Quote button to include the text to which you are responding (prevents misunderstandings[:D]).

Nord Zootman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/234312#Comment_234312

Thanks Dave - not sure how I missed that!

Harry Hahne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233760#Comment_233760

So <superset 1 Jn 2:28> is appropriate for this case (see 1. References).

This works, at least in this instance. I really expected <~1 John 2:28> to work.

I think it would be more intuitive if a person could type in a Bible reference and find it whether the verse is an exact match or part of a range.

I still think this type of search works inconsistently. In the Wallace Greek Grammar, if I search <Bible ~1 John 2:28> it does not find 1 John 2:28-3:3 (page 525). But if I change the search to <Bible ~1 John 2:18> it finds 1 John 2:18-19, which is on the same page.

Harry Hahne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233760#Comment_233760

Could someone explain the 3 types of search operators as they apply to the Bible: Intersection, subset and superset. These are listed here (under 1. References).

Jerry M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/234541#Comment_234541

Could someone explain the 3 types of search operators as they apply to the Bible: Intersection, subset and superset. These are listed here (under 1. References).

I don't know the answer to your question, but I enjoyed reading your Logos 4 operation tips on your balboa website. Do you plan to update that?

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/234541#Comment_234541

Could someone explain the 3 types of search operators as they apply to the Bible: Intersection, subset and superset. These are listed here (under 1. References).

Forum http://community.logos.com/forums/p/19846/149311.aspx#149311 has an example of intersection, subset, and superset. Also, wiki Searching for Bible Verses and other References section has a table illustrating intersection, subset, and superset.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/234540#Comment_234540

This works, at least in this instance. I really expected <~1 John 2:28> to work.

I think it would be more intuitive if a person could type in a Bible reference and find it whether the verse is an exact match or part of a range.

I still think this type of search works inconsistently. In the Wallace Greek Grammar, if I search <Bible ~1 John 2:28> it does not find 1 John 2:28-3:3 (page 525). But if I change the search to <Bible ~1 John 2:18> it finds 1 John 2:18-19, which is on the same page.

Harry, this caught me by surprise too!

The main issue is that the range 1 John 2:28-3:3 crosses a chapter boundary.

The <~BibleRef> syntax excludes ranges that cross chapter boundaries. The idea is so that <~1 John 2:28> would not return a tagged range like 1 John 2-4. Normally this is a pretty good idea because a wide swath of text isn't very likely to have relevance to our search for one verse. But in the cases where a chapter boundary interrupts a paragraph this distinction can interrupt a regular <BibleRef> search. Louis' post that he's going to ask development about having a reference like this one included in the ~ search is good news!

Anyway I hope that information will make the links by KS4J more understandable. EDIT: The Detailed search page is, well details, it would be easy to miss the pertinent info, so for those who don't know what to look for this screen-grab is from that wiki page. The chart explains the differences.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/233717#Comment_233717

<bible superset 1 Jn 2:28> appears to get all references you're looking for.

You can also use <bible intersect 1 Jn 2:28>, which performs a full intersection and finds references that span chapter boundaries. (This is off by default, because ~ is faster, and typically returns more relevant results.)

The difference between using "intersect" and "superset" is that <bible superset 1 Jn 2:20-29> won't find 1 Jn 2:28, because v28 is not a "superset" of vv20-29. However, "intersect" will find that reference.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/234918#Comment_234918

You can also use <bible intersect 1 Jn 2:28>, which performs a full intersection and finds references that span chapter boundaries. (This is off by default, because ~ is faster, and typically returns more relevant results.)

Bradley, this is the sort of information that should be in L4 Help - even Louis was struggling!

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/235013#Comment_235013

You can also use <bible intersect 1 Jn 2:28>, which performs a full intersection and finds references that span chapter boundaries. (This is off by default, because ~ is faster, and typically returns more relevant results.)

Bradley, this is the sort of information that should be in L4 Help - even Louis was struggling!

Yeah! I immediately marked Bradley's post as a favorite so I could find it again.

steve clark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/235013#Comment_235013

Bradley, this is the sort of information that should be in L4 Help - even Louis was struggling!

Dave,

You might want to update the wiki page Search Help , i found differing result counts.

Using the tilde yields

While using Intersect yields

Also i tried intersection (as it was in italics) and got this

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/235017#Comment_235017

I just made changes to both wiki Search articles ie. http://wiki.logos.com/Search_HELP
& http://wiki.logos.com/Detailed_Search_Help#Searching_for_Bible_Verses_and_other_References

steve clark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/235026#Comment_235026

Thanks Dave!