Bug: Logos 4 resource hogging
I am posting this as a bug because this far into the development of Logos 4, it can no longer be ascribed to beta stages. Stable versions have come and gone and though there have been improvements, Logos 4 continues to make capable computers sweat too much.
The "not responding" experience still is a far too common occurrence. I am sure that I don't have the most powerful computer that can be had on the market now, but I think a T6500 (intel core duo) with 4 GB of fast ram and other more than decent hardware should be sufficient not to cough when using Logos 4 and opening several windows within it.
But such is not the case. I have Outlook opened and Chrome and Logos 4. I had one commentary opened, the NASB, one guide and one note file. The software froze. It frequently does in this kind of situation and yet being able to have resources and tools side by side is precisely part of what is so useful in Logos 4. I hear my fan go on and stay on when I start a guide or a search or open a note file.
So it seems to me, as a user not as having knowledge of programming, that the "engine" of Logos 4 was from the start and by and large remains cumbersome in that capacity. I read of other softwares that experience this kind of problem and then they come up with a new version where they completely rewrite the code, experiencing significant performance improvement by changes under the hood rather than in the functionalities. Here is another way to put it: Logos still feels the way Windows Vista did: worked but there were problems. It'd be great to work on the "Windows 7" experience equivalent instead.
Is this already in the plans?
PS: I wonder also whether the beta user addiction helps promote moving Logos 4 in the direction of stability (doing well what it already does) as opposed to looking for new toys (ie, new "exciting" features)...
Comments
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Francis said:
PS: I wonder also whether the beta user addiction helps promote moving Logos 4 in the direction of stability (doing well what it already does) as opposed to looking for new toys (ie, new "exciting" features)...
You're probably right (I'm assuming your rhetorical question implied that the answer was "no, the reverse"). Guilty as charged.
The things that I still find way too slow and annoying are dropping down a menu that has a dynamically generated list of resources (e.g., the "Search In" menu for Bible Search, and the left side of the right-click menu when you right-click on a single word). I get the spinning "wait" icon in those instances and it takes many seconds to finish. Unacceptable. The UI should have a really snappy feel, and dropdown menus should all appear virtually instantaneously. And I've got a mongo fast machine with a NovaBench score of 1772 (compared to my old laptop which had a score of 197 but still ran Logos)!
Also, updating the library catalog after making a change to tags or a resource name is too slow ("Updating library catalog. List may be incomplete" message appears for 10-15 seconds).
And I get the frozen screen and "Not responding" for 20 seconds or more when I open a medium-sized somewhat complex clippings file (made up of one clipping for each of the tables of contents from the Early Church Fathers volumes, complete with their links) or try to scroll in it past a juncture between clippings. Ditto when I do "close all" when there are a lot of tabs open.
Logos has taken the approach that when people complain in general about speed, they say "we can't do anything about it unless you tell us precisely what action is taking too long for you and send us your log file from doing that action." They do respond with improved performance when we do that, which is good. But I wish they were more proactive about it internally. I'm not sure how many of them are actually using Logos on a day-to-day basis as much as we are, so they might not notice and be frustrated by these things like we are. They see it from under the hood, and spend so much of their time coding and fixing bugs that it must leave little time for actual Bible study using the product. And the ones who are using it extensively as a study platform and would like to work on performance improvement (or fixing annoying little bugs that have been around for several versions) are prevented from doing so by other stuff on their task list that is more important to management.
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[Y]
The fact that Rosie's experience (as far as mentioned times and delays) isn't significantly better than mine, despite her significantly faster computer*, points to the fact that there is still much room for performance optimization.
*I have an Intel Core 2 Duo 3GHz, 8GB RAM, Intel G2 80GB SSD, Radeon 6790 (I think, not in front of it right now), and 64-bit Windows 7
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Rosie Perera said:
The UI should have a really snappy feel, and dropdown menus should all appear virtually instantaneously. And I've got a mongo fast machine with a NovaBench score of 1772 (compared to my old laptop which had a score of 197 but still ran Logos)!
Yikes, Rosie! Thanks for sharing-- what a computer you do have and if you say Logos is not snappy on it, I think I will give up and settle for mediocrity. [:'(]
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Joan Korte said:
I think I will give up and settle for mediocrity.
That is so sad. I hope we never stop pressuring them to make it better. Remember the parable of the persistent widow? (Luke 18:1-8)
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Rosie,
I'm 60; I can leave the "fight" up to those of you who have the chutzpah. [:)]
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Both Rosie's and Ron's computers are better than mine, though I think that mine should be adequate. I mean, I understand that Logos 4 is actually quite a piece of software technology, but unless it is to be reserved for an elite, it has to be able to perform reasonably well on an average computer. And yet, Rosie, your computer is above average and you have the same problems.
With regard to pointing to specific contexts in which the slowdowns happen, as I said before, I am no programmer. But the question I raised remains: is it a matter of fixes or is there something more fundamental, common to all these performance issues? This is why I alluded to these softwares that wrote all new code. I guess they tried to address performance issues over time until they came to the conclusion that it was not going to work that way. Hence, since Logos 4 has been around for enough time now and has gone through a number of rounds of stable releases, I wonder if that's not the sign that the question is up.
Incidentally, I think it is worth recalling for all that unlike some softwares for which problems emerge later, Logos started with significant performance problems. Sometimes you buy a car and it runs smooth from the start until one day a problem emerges. Then you have the other type of car that has problems from the start and needs repeated trips to the repair shop. The latter corresponds more to my and that which I read of others' experience of Logos 4 so far.
Better a live dog than a dead lion, but better yet: a live lion than a dead dog!!! [:D]
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I am somewhat relieved to hear that I am not the only one who is still having this problem, and who is still not happy with performance with L4.
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Rosie Perera said:
The UI should have a really snappy feel, and dropdown menus should all appear virtually instantaneously.
You can make your installation feel much snappier. Run L4 Mac for a day or two. [:D]
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It's probably a bit easier to forgive Logos having lived through the days of floppies and dial up. My main issue is that I can't really open too much.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Joan Korte said:
'm 60; I can leave the "fight" up to those of you who have the chutzpah.
You are too young to give up! [8-|]
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Michael Ballai said:
It's probably a bit easier to forgive Logos having lived through the days of floppies and dial up. My main issue is that I can't really open too much.
Hey Michael, this is really funny: you need to look back to the day of floppies and dial up to feel better about Logos 4 performance issues! I love the point of reference.
LOL
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Ron Keyston Jr said:
The fact that Rosie's experience (as far as mentioned times and delays) isn't significantly better than mine, despite her significantly faster computer*, points to the fact that there is still much room for performance optimization.
*I have an Intel Core 2 Duo 3GHz, 8GB RAM, Intel G2 80GB SSD, Radeon 6790 (I think, not in front of it right now), and 64-bit Windows 7
I think (and I've said this before) that this exact issue is puzzling to me. It's clearly NOT an apples and apples relationship with our machines and Logos...i.e. some users with Cray Supercomputers don't get significantly better performance that those with a 2 year old upper/middle of the road laptop....it just makes no sense...and really points to unknown factors rather than an "optimization" issue...(if we all ran that exact Laptop that runs L4 best we wouldn't be talking about it)
My Dell Laptop is NOT the best on the block...nor is it new but it runs L4 very nicely....and so the fact that Rosie is having spinning pizzas during drop down menus just has me flummoxed...lol.
I have an Intel Core 2 Duo 2.2 GHz, 6GB RAM, Dell HD (nothing special) , Radeon 4650 and 64-bit Windows 7
And I get no spinning pizzas....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
My Dell Laptop is NOT the best on the block...nor is it new but it runs L4 very nicely....and so the fact that Rosie is having spinning pizzas during drop down menus just has me flummoxed...lol.
I have an Intel Core 2 Duo 2.2 GHz, 6GB RAM, Dell HD (nothing special) , Radeon 4650 and 64-bit Windows 7
And I get no spinning pizzas....
Robert: are you saying that you can open say a passage guide, a note set or a search, a commentary, a Bible and switch back and forth with no slowdowns at all, no "spinning pizza"?
And if it is your blessed experience, then the question is begging: how many are in your boat vs. those who are not and more importantly, why might this be?
A couple questions come to mind: imported notes have been mentioned in connection with a number of problems: do you have any? Secondly, large note sets have also been noted as a potential source of problems: do you have any? Lastly, I wonder about whether the size of one's library (and index processing) is also a X factor. I have 1,738 resources. Is your library large? Just looking for answers.
Alternatively, perhaps Logos users could collect money to ship your laptop to Logos headquarters for investigation of the miracle computer. What makes your Logos 4 purr? Is it your desktop background? The music you play? The paint in your office?
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Perhaps someday, all the indexing and auto-populate activity will come from an outsourced Logos data center, where cloud computing will be extremely cheap in the coming years. Only using local resources when Network.GetIsNetworkAvailable() is false.
I am actually considering buying this software, so a test drive would be nice.
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Francis said:
And if it is your blessed experience, then the question is begging: how many are in your boat vs. those who are not and more importantly, why might this be?
The only slow downs or delays that I get are during a Bible search as described here: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/32059/238663.aspx#238663
I sent in a support request asking them to watch the video but after the generic "We got your request" email, no follow-up or anything.
Francis said:are you saying that you can open say a passage guide, a note set or a search, a commentary, a Bible and switch back and forth with no slowdowns at all, no "spinning pizza"?
Just tested it, along with a few more commentaries open and no slowdowns (spinning pizzas). Instead of a Bible search I done an entire library.
Francis said:imported notes have been mentioned in connection with a number of problems: do you have any?
Just a few.
Francis said:Secondly, large note sets have also been noted as a potential source of problems: do you have any?
Not nearly as large as I have heard others describe, so my answer would be no.
Francis said:Lastly, I wonder about whether the size of one's library
1,417 books showing and several other language (Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic) resources hidden.
I am on my Asus laptop at work right now and the processor is 2.4 GHz with 6 Gig RAM Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit.
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Francis said:
Both Rosie's and Ron's computers are better than mine, though I think that mine should be adequate. I mean, I understand that Logos 4 is actually quite a piece of software technology, but unless it is to be reserved for an elite, it has to be able to perform reasonably well on an average computer. And yet, Rosie, your computer is above average and you have the same problems.
I can sympathize. A bit over two years ago I bought a computer which I thought was very adequate and fast. To me it was quite good since my previous computer had lasted me for more than 10 years (and it does run L4 though VERY sluggishly). Despite its seeming fast to me, I have since decided that the new computer wasn't quite filling the bill when it came to running L4. I therefore decided to get a newer faster, badder desktop computer that would run L4 with some authority and sell my "old" 2 yr old laptop to my daughter at a cheap price. Hopefully it won't be necessary to get an even faster computer in the very near future.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Francis,
I have an Core2 Duo T9400 @ 2.53 GHz. with 4GB of RAM, a ATI Mobile Radeon 512MB video card, and 7200RPM Drive. For the most part I find it more than useable and never get spinning pizzas. What does you have for video and hard drive? Those are important too, maybe more so than CPU.
I run a lot of stuff on my computer, and I find I need to manage memory myself. I find that I need to keep memory in use to less than about 2.8G, otherwise everything (not just Logos) starts slowing down. I find that Firefox and Logos are my largest contenders for memory and sometimes I need to restart one or the other to gain back needed memory (Firefox is the usual culprit).
Francis said:A couple questions come to mind: imported notes have been mentioned in connection with a number of problems: do you have any? Secondly, large note sets have also been noted as a potential source of problems: do you have any? Lastly, I wonder about whether the size of one's library (and index processing) is also a X factor. I have 1,738 resources. Is your library large? Just looking for answers.
I don't use large note files on purpose. I've found that many notes in one file do slow things down. As do many highlights in one resource. Those two areas do need to be tweaked for performance. However I don't think the number of resources affect general performance at all (I have over 2000). All that a large library affects is start-up time (a bit) and indexing time (a lot). I try not to use Logos while it's indexing because everything takes twice as long. It's not unusable, but I'll pause indexing until I'm not using the computer because I need both the memory and CPU for interactive stuff.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Robert Pavich said:
I think (and I've said this before) that this exact issue is puzzling to me. It's clearly NOT an apples and apples relationship with our machines and Logos.
The change from a 4 yr old Core 2 duo 2.0 GHz with 2 GB memory & Win XP to an i5 2.53 GHz with 4 GB memory & Win 7 has not significantly improved my experience with L4, and it was acceptable with XP! Only Indexing & search speeds show a consistent improvement between my different machines. I have 12 tabs in my Layout but don't experience issues with 15 - 16 tabs (I start to close them above this point).
Significantly, I don't share Rosie's experience with lag on the context menu of my i5 using 4.2a SR-4.
I don't use Notes/Handouts and my Clippings are modest (5 to 8 "medium" frames); so no performance issues there!
Even if Logos can say they have optimized code across the board, I suspect they will still be stuck with WPF & Video card/driver issues impacting lag + the random nature of garbage collection and JIT code generation in .NET ie. MS and NVidia/ATI code, though I expect the latter to improve their code (drivers) much sooner than the former.
So my main issue is with persistent bugs, regression bugs (those fixed in an earlier release!) and a lack of functionality (not necessarily features) when compared with L3.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Francis said:
Robert: are you saying that you can open say a passage guide, a note set or a search, a commentary, a Bible and switch back and forth with no slowdowns at all, no "spinning pizza"?
Yes
Francis said:A couple questions come to mind: imported notes have been mentioned in connection with a number of problems: do you have any?
Nope
Francis said:Secondly, large note sets have also been noted as a potential source of problems: do you have any?
Probably not large....I do have the content of some web pages in notes so some are large and some are not.
Francis said:Is your library large?
1,095 with about 500 or so hidden.
Francis said:Alternatively, perhaps Logos users could collect money to ship your laptop to Logos headquarters for investigation of the miracle computer.
It's not just me....the pattern has been random since the beginning....it's not just that a larger computer runs logos better....I've seen posts where a computer that is a LOT older and less powerful than mine running logos and then there was a guy (don't remember who) who had 12GB ram with an SSD and quad processors...and he was complaining about speed. (as I recall, I could be wrong)
there doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
My Dell Laptop is NOT the best on the block...nor is it new but it runs L4 very nicely....and so the fact that Rosie is having spinning pizzas during drop down menus just has me flummoxed...lol.
I wonder if it has to do with another factor that isn't shown in our machine benchmarks: Internet speed? I wonder if it is constantly trying to connect to the mother ship during every operation and that can bring even a mega-beast to its knees if the net connection isn't fast enough? I'm on DSL but it's not the fastest connection in the world. My download speed averages 8.53 Mbps (according to http://www.speedtest.net), but my upload speed is only 0.85 Mbps).
I also wonder whether the reason Logos developers are sometimes puzzled by our complaints of performance issues is that they are all running Logos over an Intranet rather than the Internet, so it's got to be much faster for them.
Anyone know how to do some testing to see how much Internet activity is going on (and at what speed) while Logos is doing something that we feel is too slow?
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I can say that when i turn off syncing my machine is faster....so I'm sure that that has something to do with it.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Rosie Perera said:
I wonder if it has to do with another factor that isn't shown in our machine benchmarks: Internet speed? I wonder if it is constantly trying to connect to the mother ship during every operation and that can bring even a mega-beast to its knees if the net connection isn't fast enough? I'm on DSL but it's not the fastest connection in the world. My download speed averages 8.53 Mbps (according to http://www.speedtest.net), but my upload speed is only 0.85 Mbps).
I was going to test my speed usiing this, but it first wants to scan for Windows errors. I should think there wouldn't be too many since this is an almost brand-new machine, but it shows the highest level of errors on its scale. These are registry errors. I hesitate to have it fix any "registry errors" on a new machine. DO YOU TRUST THIS AND WHAT IS YOUR EXPERIENCE?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I have high speed not a lite version or dial up nor the xtreme version either. You'd think it'd be alright. I have noticed that when sync runs it's bad news for performance. Makes you wonder whether sync could be set on a user-chosen schedule a bit like backups or windows update (eg, every day at 7 pm or every Sunday at 12)?
Also, I wonder if it is a combination of sync and note set size (possibly with the imported format a third factor). In other words, I don't know whether the changes to a note file take longer to detect and update when it is a larger set (if it is an incremental backup).
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Rosie Perera said:
I wonder if it has to do with another factor that isn't shown in our machine benchmarks: Internet speed?
I have Cable Broadband at home (from an old 802.11b/g class Wireless router) and use Mobile Broadband (USB dongle) when away. The tower that provides the latter does have its problems and the dongle that I have is the slowest of those available (the higher speed dongle gives a better browsing experience, closer to what I get at home). However, L4 performs the same away from home, and I always have diagnostic logging enabled.
I rarely see 1 Mbps download speed on the dongle.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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An idea for a possible work around if the problem is with sync:
"Set Internet Use to Yes" and "Set Internet Use to No" and "Sync" can all be placed on the toolbar for convenient access. This would allow the user to turn it off at the beginning of a session, turn it back off at the end and press sync, the whole not as cumbersomely as going through the settings screen or going offline/online at the beginning.
Any issues others can foresee with this way of handling the problem?
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Francis said:
Any issues others can foresee with this way of handling the problem?
Use Internet requires a restart to effect a change so you might as well work offline until you are ready to sync (no change to Settings nor the way that Logos allows things to work).
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
Use Internet requires a restart to effect a change so you might as well work offline until you are ready to sync (no change to Settings nor the way that Logos allows things to work).
Is the work offline command different from set internet use to no or is it the same? I ask the question to know whether it is possible to switch to work offline once Logos 4 is on. If not, then we're back to square one and there is no reasonably convenient solution to it (unless someone has a better idea).
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I don't this is the issue because I have the use internet set to no because sync slows down my computer to a craw. With this setting set to no, L4 performance improves to be only bad. The drop down menus are almost usable, and the number of "non responding" messages drops to two or three per minute.Rosie Perera said:wonder if it has to do with another factor that isn't shown in our machine benchmarks: Internet speed?
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George Somsel said:Rosie Perera said:
I wonder if it has to do with another factor that isn't shown in our machine benchmarks: Internet speed? I wonder if it is constantly trying to connect to the mother ship during every operation and that can bring even a mega-beast to its knees if the net connection isn't fast enough? I'm on DSL but it's not the fastest connection in the world. My download speed averages 8.53 Mbps (according to http://www.speedtest.net), but my upload speed is only 0.85 Mbps).
I was going to test my speed usiing this, but it first wants to scan for Windows errors. I should think there wouldn't be too many since this is an almost brand-new machine, but it shows the highest level of errors on its scale. These are registry errors. I hesitate to have it fix any "registry errors" on a new machine. DO YOU TRUST THIS AND WHAT IS YOUR EXPERIENCE?
The "Before you begin the speed test, run a free scan..." is an ad. Hover over it and you see this in the status bar of your browser (click to enlarge):
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Francis said:
Is the work offline command different from set internet use to no or is it the same?
Work Offline puts you offline because of the way you start L4. Changing the Setting to Use Internet = NO requires a restart but means you still have access via commands like sync now and update now; however see this.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I recently upgraded from a core duo 3.2ghz computer with 3 gb of ram and a 320 gb hard drive running on windows vista. My old computer had to wait a fair bit to do more intense searches; particulalrly the Bible Word study guide or the passage guide. Since I upgraded to a quad core 3.1 ghz computer with 8 gb of ram and 1 tearabite hard drive running on windows 7 (64 BIT) it has greatly improved. The speed with which it does searches now is amazing. I have a 1 gb dedicated graphics card which also helps. My library is not overly large. I have scholars Gold plus about 50 books that I have purchased and quite a few other libronix discs. About 1300 resources in all. It really hums along now.
Steve Caswell
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Something to think about:
1. How many people use L4?
2. How many users post on this forum?
3. How many users have trouble with L4 ‘not responding’ fast enough?
4. How fast is ‘fast enough’?
I run L4 & L3 on my desktop along with MS Word, Outlook, Powerpoint, and IE8 ( I also have an ongoing game with MS Chess Titans). Although I do have a lot of the program ( and operator) problems expressed in the various threads on this forum and benefit from the expert solutions offered from the frequent posters, I do not have the ‘slow down’ problem expressed in this thread. In fact – L4 seems to rum better since the last update! I pray that before Logos scrap this present L4 platform for a “better one?”, they conduct an ALL USERs satisfaction survey.
Thomas
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Thomas Jackson said:
Something to think about:
1. How many people use L4?
2. How many users post on this forum?
3. How many users have trouble with L4 ‘not responding’ fast enough?
4. How fast is ‘fast enough’?
I run L4 & L3 on my desktop along with MS Word, Outlook, Powerpoint, and IE8 ( I also have an ongoing game with MS Chess Titans). Although I do have a lot of the program ( and operator) problems expressed in the various threads on this forum and benefit from the expert solutions offered from the frequent posters, I do not have the ‘slow down’ problem expressed in this thread. In fact – L4 seems to rum better since the last update! I pray that before Logos scrap this present L4 platform for a “better one?”, they conduct an ALL USERs satisfaction survey.
Thomas
Peace to you, Thomas!
Thanks for your post. My experience is very much the same as yours. Logos 4 works absolutely fine for me. Of course, as the development teams optimises, it will be even better!
Praise God! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Rosie Perera said:
The things that I still find way too slow and annoying are dropping down a menu that has a dynamically generated list of resources (e.g., the "Search In" menu for Bible Search, and the left side of the right-click menu when you right-click on a single word). I get the spinning "wait" icon in those instances and it takes many seconds to finish. Unacceptable. The UI should have a really snappy feel, and dropdown menus should all appear virtually instantaneously. And I've got a mongo fast machine with a NovaBench score of 1772 (compared to my old laptop which had a score of 197 but still ran Logos)!
Also, updating the library catalog after making a change to tags or a resource name is too slow ("Updating library catalog. List may be incomplete" message appears for 10-15 seconds).
And I get the frozen screen and "Not responding" for 20 seconds or more when I open a medium-sized somewhat complex clippings file (made up of one clipping for each of the tables of contents from the Early Church Fathers volumes, complete with their links) or try to scroll in it past a juncture between clippings. Ditto when I do "close all" when there are a lot of tabs open.
WOW, this tells us a lot about L4, and it is not good.0 -
Peter Covert said:
WOW, this tells us a lot about L4, and it is not good.
Pete,
that's just it....it doesn't.
I have 1/2 the machine that Rosie does and I have no problems and no speed complaints.....
That's only half of the story....the other half is that many users with less machine run just fine.....it's puzzling.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Yes and no. I have no problem with this type of survey as long as it is compared to industral standards. For an example, compare the results of L4 to Bibleworks and Accordance. This is why I say this. Let us say that only 5% of the people who has used L4 are not happy with it. This might sound good, but is it. If other software programs like BW and Accordance have a 0.25% of people who are not happy with the program, it puts the 5% into its proper light (an increase of 2000% of unhappy users compared to the other programs).Thomas Jackson said:I pray that before Logos scrap this present L4 platform for a “better one?”, they conduct an ALL USERs satisfaction survey.
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Robert Pavich said:Peter Covert said:
WOW, this tells us a lot about L4, and it is not good.
Pete,
that's just it....it doesn't.
I have 1/2 the machine that Rosie does and I have no problems and no speed complaints.....
That's only half of the story....the other half is that many users with less machine run just fine.....it's puzzling.
I disagree. There is a real problem if Rosie's computer is having problems. If L4 is the only program that displays this problem, then the problem is in L4.0 -
Rosie Perera said:
Anyone know how to do some testing to see how much Internet activity is going on (and at what speed) while Logos is doing something that we feel is too slow?
Hi Rosie,
The Network tab in the Windows Resource Monitor gives some basic information - it might provide a starting point.
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Peter Covert said:
disagree. There is a real problem if Rosie's computer is having problems. If L4 is the only program that displays this problem, then the problem is in L4.
Pete,
I never said that there wasn't something going on....I just objected to the idea that "If a supercomputer cannot run Logos smoothly then there is an issue!"
I'm just trying to point out that it's not that simple...that's all.
It only tells us HALF of the story....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Dave Hooton said:
Work Offline puts you offline because of the way you start L4. Changing the Setting to Use Internet = NO requires a restart but means you still have access via commands like sync now and update now; however see this.
So, if I understand correctly what this other thread documented, we can:
1. Set Internet Use to No permanently for performance improvement.
2. Still be able to invoke Sync Now or Update Now / Update Resources as needed.* The end result would be that "Sync Now" could be used as a manual backup, something that the user does last at the end of the day or before leaving Logos 4.
* What happens with the Update commands was not left altogether clear at the end of thread.
If I understood it correctly, Dave, this can still work as a work around solution.
At the same time, I still think that the option on the Program Settings page "Download updates between <time> and <time>" could serve as template for a new option that would go like this: "Automatically Sync: yes/no" and "Sync between <time> and <time>".
Do you folks think this would be a good suggestion?
Robert, I appreciate your middle-ground posture: some computers run Logos 4 fine others don't. There is no point trying to argue that it runs fine or it does not based on half the experience. But running fine is not a problem whereas not running fine for a significant number of people is a problem. It should not be left unaddressed because the proverbial cup is seen as half full.
Still, one wonders whether there are parameters that can be identified that bear upon the issue of performance. Sync now and the internet is being discussed, but others have mentioned graphic cards and other memory settings. It's always complicated to get into this kind of discussion because optimum settings for one program might not be for others. On the other hand, "minimum" system requirements might define a workable installation but not a satisfactory performance. Perhaps something like, "Logos 4 has been found to work best when...." followed by known factors such as graphic card requirement, pagefile size and whatever else there might be.
The easy answer is to buy a beast. But I think that it is not a reasonable expectation. George said he had to sell a two year old laptop. We need to keep in mind that while this may be a workable solution for Western Christians, too expensive solutions takes the blessing of Logos 4 away from those who simply cannot sustain such a standard of living whether in North America or brothers and sisters in ministry in less fortunate countries or more limited budget ministries.
Also, since Rosie owns a beast and yet she continues to have problems, there might be more than just raw power needed here. Settings could be part of it. I think that this thread is going somewhere and if we continue to brainstorm together and compare our experiences we may discover promising leads.
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Francis said:
The easy answer is to buy a beast. But I think that it is not a reasonable expectation. George said he had to sell a two year old laptop. We need to keep in mind that while this may be a workable solution for Western Christians, too expensive solutions takes the blessing of Logos 4 away from those who simply cannot sustain such a standard of living whether in North America or brothers and sisters in ministry in less fortunate countries or more limited budget ministries
I didn't "have to" sell a two-year old laptop. I chose to do so for two reasons:
- I did have a problem with notes hanging the system.
- My daughter needs a laptop.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Francis said:
Robert, I appreciate your middle-ground posture: some computers run Logos 4 fine others don't. There is no point trying to argue that it runs fine or it does not based on half the experience. But running fine is not a problem whereas not running fine for a significant number of people is a problem. It should not be left unaddressed because the proverbial cup is seen as half full.
Francie,
I'm not arguing that it runs fine...I'm saying that whatever issue is at fault, it's definitely not the stock "get a bigger computer" answer....
is that clear enough for everyone?
I'm not arguing that that there are people having problems...there obviously is...but the answer seems to be more complicated than we make it out to be sometimes.
I never said it should be unaddressed nor did I say that the "cup was half full"....
I merely said...."there is more to the story" which is a true statement...wouldn't you agree?
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Francis said:
A couple questions come to mind: imported notes have been mentioned in connection with a number of problems: do you have any? Secondly, large note sets have also been noted as a potential source of problems: do you have any? Lastly, I wonder about whether the size of one's library (and index processing) is also a X factor. I have 1,738 resources. Is your library large? Just looking for answers.
I don't have ANY notes and have a library of only ~450 resources. I've also got an 8mbit/sec cable internet connection (don't know my upload numbers at the moment, but IIRC I typically get 1-1.5mbps up). I see sluggishness/pauses/delays in all the same places that Rosie and others are describing: dynamic menus, passage guide, changing layouts, tagging resources, highlighting, close all, open/refresh homepage, etc. It isn't terrible or unusable, but it is the ONLY program on my computer that doesn't have a "snappy" UI. Every other program I have is extremely responsive, which just highlights the fact that Logos is not. I have no problems with my search speeds though...those are lightning quick.
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EDIT - Oops, somehow double-posted, sorry.
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Yes, Robert, I agree. I started a paragraph speaking about your posture but ended up talking of others things which are not yours. I can see how it would look as if I ascribed this to you, but such was not my intention. You have been both very clear and constructive. Blessings to you.
George, I understand that no one held a gun on your head and made you buy a new laptop, I just meant that this kind of solution on the road to performance improvement might be beyond the reach of others. Blessings to you as well.
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Francis said:
Also, since Rosie owns a beast and yet she continues to have problems, there might be more than just raw power needed here. Settings could be part of it. I think that this thread is going somewhere and if we continue to brainstorm together and compare our experiences we may discover promising leads.
I think the only way we're going to get to the bottom of why some of us (even with beasts of machines) have performance problems in some situations and others of us don't is if those with the specific problems can report them clearly enough and with enough supporting data to Logos that they can track down what is causing the problem.
I have done that here with one particularly bad problem on my installation of Logos: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/32531.aspx
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Francis said:
Also, since Rosie owns a beast and yet she continues to have problems, there might be more than just raw power needed here.
Rosie's experience (I'm not trying to single out Rosie per se, but anyone who has a similar situation to hers) saved me a lot of money. It would be realllllllllllllllly frustrating to spend a lot on "a beast" thinking all will be well and then, perchance, hopes would be dashed by expectations unrealized.
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Joan Korte said:
It would be realllllllllllllllly frustrating to spend a lot on "a beast" thinking all will be well and then, perchance, hopes would be dashed by expectations unrealized.
I could have got a "beast" i7 quad core laptop in January but ended up with a "mild mannered" i5 dual core and very happy with its and L4's performance.
BTW Ron's experience makes it clear that number of resources is not a factor (450 vs several thousand for Rosie).
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave, is it a necessary inference that problems with 450 resources and not more means that the number is not a factor? 450 resources may be significantly less than 1,500 or more but I'd be curious to know about the experience of those who have a smaller library yet (for instance, one of the smaller e-bible packages or other small collections). But perhaps you're right, I just wonder.
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Dave,
You are one of the IT gurus on these forums [8-|] and I would fully expect you to figure it our before the fact. The more there is some kind of substantial list of what to get--based on some kind of analysis --without having tto turn off or turni on something in the software--rather just getting certain hardware -is on the right tractk. I know there is a list of minimum and recommended requirements for hardware. However:
Bottom line and I have thought this for months, with all the wonderful features Logos 4 has, it is l less than an optimal Bible software experience to have to make sure you have fewer notes or links to things because you will slow your system down. When you pay top dollar for software like Logos 4, I would think the user would love to use all the features without stumbling into slowdowns based on using the features as advertised and designed.
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