Sentence Diagramming
Is there a good place to go study about sentence diagramming?
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Lee Kantenwein's Diagramatical Analysis is a great starting point.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Clayton,
There are different types of sentence diagramming. The two that I'm most familiar with are block diagramming (text flow) and reed-kellogg diagrams (line).
A good resource for block/text flow diagramming is "Biblical Greek Exegesis" by Guthrie and Duvall (not available in Logos).
A good resource for reed-kellog (line) diagrams is "Diagrammatical Analysis" by Kantenwein, which is available in Logos and you may already own. I don't know which base packages it is included in.(http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/DIAGANALYSIS).
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You might want to check your library, you might already have this. Or click this link to have Logos4 try to open it Diagrammatical Analysis.
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It is in the languages package and scholars on up.David B Phillips said:I don't know which base packages it is included in.(http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/DIAGANALYSIS).
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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Thomas Black said:
Lee Kantenwein's Diagramatical Analysis is a great starting point.
http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/DIAGANALYSIS
Thank you Thomas for this tip on a great resource!
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The term "Sentence Diagramming" covers a wide array of imposters these days. The Reed/Kellogg method of diagramming a sentence is the "original" more difficult and in my opinion by far the best. I learned the R/K method of diagramming as a boy in the '50's and am still refining my skills. I've diagrammed (in Greek) Galatians, Jude and 1,2 Thessalonians. They are posted on the forums.
If one wants to learn Greek diagramming then Kantenwein is a must (as suggested by others). Additionally, Richard Belcher has a small booklet on diagramming, as does John Grassmick. A fella named Eric Sowell also has a diagramming resource. These resources can be found on the Internet with a little digging.
Also, Thomas Schreiner (a Logos resource) has a chapter on diagramming in his book on the Pauline Epistles; there’s a chapter on diagramming in Brooks & Winbery- Syntax of New Testament Greek. And, there is a very good chapter on Greek diagramming in the book "Interpreting the New Testament Text" edited by Bock and Fanning.
There are several good books on the Reed/Kellogg “stick” method of diagramming English sentences. An Amazon search will reveal several. The original R/K book is available FREE on the Internet but it is tough reading.
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I'd like to recommend Terry's diagrams....if they can be imported...they are a good learning tool....
And also one thing (not Logos product) is "Koineworks Diagramming software" by Lexel.
It's now FREE and it has LOTS of interactive learning, interactive tutorials, and tests...it's just a great piece of software for those who aren't up on Reed-Kellogg diagramming.
http://www.lexelsoftware.com/Products/KoineworksDiagramming.htm
Here is a screen shot of the main menu...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Searching entire library for sentence NEAR diagram found several informative results.
Lee Kantenwein's Diagramatical Analysis is in Original Languages and all Scholar's packages.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I went to this page and there is no free download for the KoineWorks interactive tuturial, just a PDF text. I'm I missing something?
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I have the zipfile for this product if anyone would like to have it. Drop me a note.
Terry Cook
sDg
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Hi Terry, could you send it to me.
gar robmilk at shaw dot ca
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If I've properly ciphered your email it should be on its way.
Terry
sDg
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Thanks for ALL the information. This has got me started. I am reading the Diagramming book right now and have started practicing. Although I will admit at the moment it is easier to do it on paper than in Logos but I am trying.
Thanks to everyone!
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Terry,
can you also send me the file? I only have it on CD....
rpavich at gmail dot com
thanks.
bob
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Rob,
Tried to send but gmail kicked it back. I sent to: rpavich@gmail.com and got this unfriendly notice- "Our system detected an illegal attachment on your message"
Terry
sDg
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Terry Cook said:
Tried to send but gmail kicked it back. I sent to:
Terry, it is best to avoid putting email addresses in plain language on the forums, as spammers scan these posts looking for addresses. You can edit your post to alter the address so that it will not be so easily recognized.
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terry,
I can't imagine why...can you rename the file extension to ".txt" and try again?
Jack....what's the best way to put my email here?
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Hi Terry,
just ran across this while looking for some diagramming help... could I impose and ask you to send a copy to shinydome at comcastdotnet
thanks bunches βλεπο ο φοτος. (hope that is the right sentiment
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Terry Cook said:
wide array of imposters these days. The Reed/Kellogg method of diagramming a sentence is the "original"
I believe this honor actually goes to S. W. Clark. [;)] While I can have great fun with Reed-Kellogg, it is designed for English. I always switch to a tree diagram which is language independent for Greek and Hebrew. It also has the advantage of being able to handle declension/conjugation when the sentence gets tough.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Good to see you can use Wikipedia. By "original" I by no means meant to imply "first" as if only Alonzo Reed and Brainerd Kellogg had thought of diagramming sentences; few things can be directly pointed to as the very first. Others may have developed systems but none were as successful as R/K and that cannot be disputed. The R/K system was adopted at the end of the 19th century in American classrooms and had no serious rivals until it fell from grace with so-called modern teaching methods. As a tool for breaking apart a sentence and accounting for its parts it still has no rivals. Anything that gets a student into studying the structure of his/her target language is a good thing whether it be tree diagramming or something else. Why you would want to downplay the value this time tested system is a mystery.
It goes without saying it was originally designed for English. Of course it was, but that doesn't diminish the value of using their system for Greek or perhaps for other languages. The R/K system is the ONLY system that forces the student to build a scaffold accounting for every unit. Greek and English have parts of speech like verbs, nouns, adjectives, etc. and that's all that's needed to employ the R/K system. Again, how it's effectiveness is watered down because R/K was an English language system escapes me.
To say some other system allows "handling" of declension/conjugation is to me like saying they don't use footballs in the game of baseball. If one wants to work on declensions or conjugations then they'll need to do something else.
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Terry Cook said:
Good to see you can use Wikipedia.
You guessed wrong[;)] My training includes a lot of linguistics. Linguists use one of several tree diagram techniques precisely because they account for all meaningful units in all languages.. I genuinely enjoy creating RK diagrams - especially on sentences that create serious difficulties. But I also recognize why linguistics replaced them 50 years ago. But I also recognize that Logos users as a whole are more familiar with RK than X-tree - and am therefore glad Logos supports both.
Terry Cook said:To say some other system allows "handling" of declension/conjugation is to me like saying they don't use footballs in the game of baseball. If one wants to work on declensions or conjugations then they'll need to do something else.
What I meant was that tree diagrams can be taken down to the morpheme level while RK is limited to the word level. As Logos limits it's clause analysis (tree diagrams) to the word level, it is not obvious that they can be carried further.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Terry Cook said:
I have the zipfile for this product if anyone would like to have it. Drop me a note.
Yes please...I also went to the site and the link to DTS bookshop is dead; went to the DTS bookshop online and it doesn't seem to be offering this product anymore. My e-mail is - IsaacJCephas at yahoo dot com
Also, I just downloaded some of your diagrams (hence my current interest - and why I will be doing some self study over the next few months - thanks) but have been made aware on another thread that the zip file was incomplete. I have Galatians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, and James 5. If there are more, I would be more than greatful.
God bless.
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Ha, I just couldn't search the forums properly (still can't), but I found the missing diagrams by going to your profile page and going through your old posts from there.
Would still love the zip of Koineworks. Thanks again (for your patience re:redundency[:)]).
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Hello Is,
I hope the zip file is attached. Been having some troulbe with Internet connection as of late, I think because of an old, tired wireless router. If it doesn't work I'll repost when I get my connectivity issues resolvd.
The tools in the KoineWorks zip are minimal and just for beginners. The real value is a short PDF that helps the beginner understand the basics of the Reed/Kellogg diagramming tool.
Sentence diagramming is as fun, stale, exciting, dreary, enlightening, nerve-racking, head-scratching endeavor as one will ever undertake. I think the best advice anyone could give someone interested in diagramming Greek sentences (or for that matter English) is to come to grasp with English grammar and syntax. Learn what a direct object is and understanding the Greek accusative case is easier. Understand the function of an indirect object and one has a jump on learnig the function of the Greek dative case. To this end I recommend Sam Lamerson's book available on Amazon and elsewhere.
Terry Cook
sDg
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Sorry Terry, I don't think the zip came across...
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Hmm, this may be some type of user error? I click the "paper clip" used for attaching something and my only choice is "media." So, I experimented and "attached" a jpeg and it downoaded just fine but the zip file does nothing.
So, something's wrong I just don't know what!
Terry
sDg
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I'm not sure what you're failing on:
1. click on the paper clip (as you said)
2. browse to the zipped file; click on open (second popup)
3. file name should appear in first popup
4. click on insert ... should create the link in the post - this may take a bit of time to upload.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Tried again for the 4th time with same results. The file seems to be uploading ((I have successfully uploaded zip files to this forum B4); the green progress bar runs slowly from left to right until it gets all the way to the right and then in the popup window the message "Windows cannot display" occurs!
Terry
sDg
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The closest I've come to this error is when the zip had failed. It may not work but it might be worth trying re-zipping the files.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Terry Cook said:
Tried again for the 4th time with same results. The file seems to be uploading ((I have successfully uploaded zip files to this forum B4); the green progress bar runs slowly from left to right until it gets all the way to the right and then in the popup window the message "Windows cannot display" occurs!
Could the .zip file possibly be too large for the forum software?
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Tried re-zipping to no avail! The size of the zip file is 30.5 MB.
Terry
sDg
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Why don't you try a service like yousendit and post a link when you're done? It's free. The link won't last forever but it'll get the files into the hands of the people who want it right now.
Prov. 15:23
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yousendit is $50 or a free trial which requires me to give information to them I'm not comfortable with giving. There is a "send it now" feature but it only allows for files to be sent to email addresses. Perhaps I could send the zipfile to you and you could see if you have better luck posting here?
Terry
sDg
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...am appreciating your efforts Terry [:)]
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Terry Cook said:
Perhaps I could send the zipfile to you and you could see if you have better luck posting here?
Terry
I'll do it...I want to make sure I have them all anyway
rpavich at gmail dot com
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Terry Cook said:
yousendit is $50 or a free trial which requires me to give information to them I'm not comfortable with giving. There is a "send it now" feature but it only allows for files to be sent to email addresses. Perhaps I could send the zipfile to you and you could see if you have better luck posting here?
Terry
sDg
http://www.sendspace.com/ doesn't require registration. The free portion of the service throws ads at those who want to download the file.
Prov. 15:23
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Robert,
I have sent the KoineWorks zip file to you via yousendit. It's fairly large.
Terry
sDg
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Terry,
no problem....I'll let you know when I get it.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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I couldn't upload it...I got an error...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Terry, Would you like to post it on StillTruth? send me an email via tcblack with the still truth address and I'll set you up an FTP account you can link from.Jack Caviness said:Could the .zip file possibly be too large for the forum software?
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Good problem solving guys...[^o)]
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Terry,
Could you send me the Koineworks program?
My email is: lejmblanc@gmail.com
Thanks,
Larry0 -
Larry look at the post right above yours. It provides a link to the file. After trying a number of different things I was unable to post it here.
Terry
sDg
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Terry,
I would like to look at or have sent to me anything you can on sentence diagramming and any examples of the Bible that you have done. Thank you.
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Thomas Riley said:
Terry,
I would like to look at or have sent to me anything you can on sentence diagramming and any examples of the Bible that you have done. Thank you.
Thomas,
The Reed/Kellogg method is designed for English but adapts pretty well into Greek. The Reed/Kellogg "original" is online at the Gutenberg site. Some of the fellas using Logos prefer other types of diagramming but I think they're inferior to the R/K method.
Books and resources that are helpful in understanding R/K style diagramming are available through Amazon by searching for 'sentence diagramming'. Also, do a Google for the same - I have a dozen or so bookmarks. You might find Richard Belcher's booklet somewhere. It's small but helpful. As far as Logos resources - Diagrammatical Analysis is available and chapter five (Diagramming and Conducting a Grammatical Analysis) of Schreiner's Interpreting the Pauline Epistles is worth the price of the book. Other than this I can't offer you any help.
For me, diagramming is trial and error and there is no right/wrong answer in many cases. My preferred method is to do the diagram in sections that are contextually a unit. I break it down into its independent clauses as they are found in the Epistle. Find the main verb and go from there. Once I have a tentative construction I get a tentative translation and then return to the construction for adjustments. Precede until the entire section is "done" and make changes as needed.
Terry
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Hi Terry,
You're the first person I've discovered that is also using Reed Kellog diagramming to study their bible. I've just recently finished the book of Hebrews. I love the way this diagramming technique effectively distills out the core clauses. Do you know of any bible study groups that do similar diagramming? I'd love to get involved.
Thanks,
Gavin.
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!!! Gavin!!! A fellow R/K aficionado!! I would love to see your Hebrews work. All my diagrams are available here, so if you posted yours (assuming their in Logos format) someone can make them available to the community. Even if they're not in Logos format I'd still love to see them.
I'm working on 2Peter right now...... tough sledding, but Hebrews is in my very near future.
sDg
Terry
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Terry Cook said:
!!! Gavin!!! A fellow R/K aficionado!! I would love to see your Hebrews work
Peace to Terry and Gavin! *smile* Am looking forward to studying your material if you decide to share it! Am not great at doing sentence diagrams myself although that is one of the many, many L4 projects I have slated for myself. Love reading and studying God's Word!
Terry, your sharings are here: http://wiki.logos.com/Tools_and_Files_supplied_by_users
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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