Logos 4 Scholar's Library for newbies?
I was wondering what advice you all might have for a Hebrew/Greek newbie who's thinking about upgrading to Scholar's Library. I'm pretty much self-taught on everything, and I learn well. However, I'm only just dabbling in Original Language Studies right now (ESV Interlinear Bible, Strong's, Morphological Search, etc.). Will I be able to benefit from the power of Scholar's Library without years of practice reading Greek or a Bible College degree. 
If it would be a beneficial upgrade, I'd love any tips on the best features to get started with Scholar's and/or any links that might help. Thanks!
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I strongly recommend getting the first package that includes Lexham Hebrew Interlinear. I know that Logos offers the reverse interlinears in their lesser packages, but in my view, they are obviously inferior to a straight interlinear. There is an inherent advantage to seeing the original language in its proper sequence. I don't recall which package is the first to include LHI, but if you are serious about learning Hebrew, I would commit to that package.
Just one man's opinion.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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I strongly recommend getting the first package that includes Lexham Hebrew Interlinear
You have to buy the language package or Scholars Gold package and up.
Logos Bible Software - Comparison Chart - Logos Bible Software
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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I'm a little lost as to why I can't upgrade from Bible Study Library to Original Language Library... Weird. I'll have to ask my rep. It seems that Original Language hasa some really nice resourcess that Scholar's doesn't, so it might be a good detour... Thanks for your advice so far!
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I was wondering what advice you all might have for a Hebrew/Greek newbie who's thinking about upgrading to Scholar's Library. I'm pretty much self-taught on everything, and I learn well.
The base Scholar's is good but see the comparison for yourself, especially if coming from Original Language library.
I agree that the Lexham Hebrew-English Interlinear ($100) + Lexham Greek-English NT Interlinear ($45) should be purchased separately if you don't already own them and cannot afford the upgrade to Scholar's Gold.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I'm a little lost as to why I can't upgrade from Bible Study Library to Original Language Library... Weird. I'll have to ask my rep.
It's off the Upgrade route so that's what you have to do. OL is OK but consider the two resources I mentioned.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Bummer. Anyway, I'll definitely look into that. If I had to pick, do you guys think I'd be better off getting a few key resources, or Scholar's first?
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I own Portfolio, so I suggest you get the biggest package you can...Gold is probably the lowest I would go. Of course, we can only do what we can do...but if Gold is within grasp, get it. Get Platinum if possible.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Bummer. Anyway, I'll definitely look into that. If I had to pick, do you guys think I'd be better off getting a few key resources, or Scholar's first?
If can use resources, Scholar's Gold offers more, including United Bible Societies (UBS) handbooks, reviews => UBS New Testament Handbook Series and UBS Old Testament Handbook Series
Option: compare costs of purchasing resources vis package (along with considering your cash flow, Thankful Logos offers payment plan).
Observation: Scholar's Platinum includes A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG) and Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of HistoricalResearch so Advanced Hebrew Supplement (11 vols.) becomes attractive for adding HALOT to Scholar's Platinum.
Beginning Biblical Hebrew is included in Original Languages and Scholar's Gold (and up). Mike Heiser has a companion web site => http://michaelsheiser.com/HWH.htm
Original Languages and up include "Andersen–Forbes Analyzed Text of the Hebrew Bible" so can see Hebrew alphabet in various Psalms (plus search capabilities include English Reverse Interlinear Bibles) along with "Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia with WIVU Morphology".
Observation: Interlinear Bible can show transliteration (Psalm 34 uses most of the Hebrew alphabet to begin verses):
Caution: Interlinear can show English lexical value and literal translation, which can be a Blessing and a Curse. For Greek New Testament, prefer display of Greek manuscript and Louw-Nida #'s (can hover mouse over # for semantic context pop-up in English covering range of Greek meaning). Also appreciate UBS handbook insights about what is important for translation along with English examples across variety of cultures.
Another resource to consider is => Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software (was on sale earlier this year, could discuss with Logos rep).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I would get Scholar's + the two Lexham resources. Silver (for me) provided some worthwhile commentaries and Gold is uninteresting; there is nothing significant for original languages (but see the comparison chart). Do the math and work out the costs of buying individually vs an upgrade eg. the commentaries I wanted were worth upgrading from Scholar's to Silver.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I'm a little lost as to why I can't upgrade from Bible Study Library to Original Language Library.
You can, but you have to speak to a sales rep, and you may have to insist. Some[one?] seem to tell/have told customers it can't be done, while others make no problem at all. Several people have reported here on the forums after doing such an upgrade -- one just a few days ago -- so it definitely can be done.
Another option is to buy Original Languages, and then immediately upgrade to Scholar's (which is what I originally did). That way you will get the language resources without having to go all the way to Gold. And I believe it will only cost you $50-100 more than Scholar's itself, so you practically get those expensive language books for free. If you want to do this, make absolutely sure you're sold OLL with an upgrade to Scholar's, and not Scholar's with an "up"grade to OLL, since there have been reports that the latter will cost you considerably more, in spite of you getting the exact same resources.
You will still miss some very important stuff, though -- especially the Early Church Fathers, which only comes with Silver -- so if you have the money, you might still want to look higher. Or you can buy a middle package now, save up, and be ready to upgrade the next time they offer a good discount on upgrades.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Again, thanks all. I'm going to talk with my rep today to see about upgrading to the OL Library. Considering my upgrade price for Scholar's, I'd have to imagine OL Library would be less, and seems to have a lot of what I want. I'm getting the feeling that Scholar's isn't actually a great package, so I'd rather try the route of OL -> Scholar's Gold (someday).
Unfortunately I'm but a lowly part-time IT manager (and wanna-be Bible teacher/ministry leader), and right now I've got to work on a very specific budget. But, I figure Bible software is probably better than an Android phone, so if I can spend a bunch of money on a phone why not redirect it to something better?
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So just to clarify, I talked with my rep about upgrading to the Original Languages Library. In my situation it would actually cost more to upgrade to OL than it would to Scholar's. However, it might be a good deal still, I'm not sure. Apparently even if I got Scholar's, it would cost the same to put on the OL collection later. I'm leaning toward piecemealing at this point. Realistically I hardly use the books from my base collection at this point, and since I'm not proficient in reading Hebrew/Greek without English, I'm not sure that having NA27 would even help me (among other similar ancient texts).
Thanks for the suggestion on the Hebrew-to-English Interlinear (to a few of you). I'm really wondering if investing in those resources ala carte wouldn't be a better investment as it would be a deeper dive into the original languages (sentence structure, etc.) probably without being overwhelming like a straight ancient text.
I appreciate everybody's input so far. I'd love to take the advice of Scholar's Gold for simplicity, but I'm just not able to pay $950+ or a $90+ monthly payment right now. Someday.
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A $ 99.99 collection to consider is AMG Bible Essentials that includes NA27 plus more.
If Logos sales history repeats, December is a better month for purchasing or upgrading a package (unless can qualify for academic discount).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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A $ 99.99 collection to consider is AMG Bible Essentials that includes NA27 plus more.
Very tempting! Thanks for pointing this one out. Other than the NA27, it looks like not much of this is common in the higher base packages. It really seems like I'd get better use of this than I would Scholar's at this point in my study.
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I was wondering what advice you all might have for a Hebrew/Greek newbie who's thinking about upgrading to Scholar's Library. I'm pretty much self-taught on everything, and I learn well. However, I'm only just dabbling in Original Language Studies right now (ESV Interlinear Bible, Strong's, Morphological Search, etc.). Will I be able to benefit from the power of Scholar's Library without years of practice reading Greek or a Bible College degree.
If it would be a beneficial upgrade, I'd love any tips on the best features to get started with Scholar's and/or any links that might help. Thanks!
I strongly recommend hiding any interlinear that comes with whatever package you purchase. Interlinears actually prevent your learning the language.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I strongly recommend hiding any interlinear that comes with whatever package you purchase. Interlinears actually prevent your learning the language.
Are you suggesting that I hide both Reverse interlinears and Original-to-English types as well? My first impression would be that a true Interlinear (which I failed to make the distinction of above - I meant ESV Reverse Interlinear) would be a great way to learn more of the original language because I would be able to see the original order of words, etc. Would love clarification.
Also, I came across the Logos High Definition New Testament today and felt as though that could be a great package to pick up as well. It seems as though visually seeing those distinctions in tense, mood, emphasis etc. would actually be great practice in helping get the right interpretation during study. What do you all think of that resource and do you think it would actually help learn or impede learning the basics of the Original languages?
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I strongly recommend hiding any interlinear that comes with whatever package you purchase. Interlinears actually prevent your learning the language.
Are you suggesting that I hide both Reverse interlinears and Original-to-English types as well? My first impression would be that a true Interlinear (which I failed to make the distinction of above - I meant ESV Reverse Interlinear) would be a great way to learn more of the original language because I would be able to see the original order of words, etc. Would love clarification.
Also, I came across the Logos High Definition New Testament today and felt as though that could be a great package to pick up as well. It seems as though visually seeing those distinctions in tense, mood, emphasis etc. would actually be great practice in helping get the right interpretation during study. What do you all think of that resource and do you think it would actually help learn or impede learning the basics of the Original languages?
Never use an interlinear of any type.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Are you suggesting that I hide both Reverse interlinears and Original-to-English types as well?
The reverse interlinear's help you understand something about the translation rather than learn even the basics of the original language, whose words are necessarily out of order. The two Lexham resources have original words in order with glosses for understanding. I find Hebrew particularly difficult and the LHI helps me understand the language but not to learn it!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Also, I came across the Logos High Definition New Testament today and felt as though that could be a great package to pick up as well. It seems as though visually seeing those distinctions in tense, mood, emphasis etc. would actually be great practice in helping get the right interpretation during study. What do you all think of that resource and do you think it would actually help learn or impede learning the basics of the Original languages?
Discourse analysis focuses on flow and connection of thoughts so emphasis uses bold.
Wiki page Logos Resource Reviews => Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament reviews bundle that includes Logos High Definition New Testament.
Forum => Lexham High Definition NT ESV Edition has a screen shot. High Definition NT ESV is not an interlinear so cannot use Logos Greek Morphology visual filters to highlight tense and mood (which can be done in Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament).
Forum => Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament Bundle... includes Discourse Analysis Grammar section 2.8 resource plus several links.
Forum discussion never default to the article includes couple discourse screen shots plus more interlinear discussion and BDAG usage.
Interlinear use depends on your language learning goals: if want to master language for sight reading, then George offers worthwhile advice:
Never use an interlinear of any type.
Observation: takes lots of practice and use to master sight reading (memorizing grammatical nuances, spelling differences and range of word meanings). Also worthwhile to memorize scripture in original language, useful for meditation. Philippians 4:8 has a wonderful example of Greek middle voice usage in an imperative (command) that each of us should be doing continually (verb spelling can be middle or passive, in Philippians 4:8 context, middle voice is appropriate).
Beginning Greek grammars use simple word association that later needs meaningful expansion since Greek is not English (also can be a "curse" since English nuances can be misapplied to original language words). However, BDAG range of word meaning is overwhelming for initial Greek learning so may not be used during 1st year Greek language courses, which also applies to A.T. Robertson's Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of HistoricalResearch that provides grammatical nuance insights.
Thankful for Logos 4 Bible Word Study that can show word translations, including Greek and Hebrew relationship in LXX.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Daniel,
I'm right now in the situation of a new learner of NT Greek, using Logos and other resources to get myself into this language. I own no base package, as for me I found that much in the OL package is way above what I even intend to address (such as Aramaic, Syriac, Coptic and - at least for now - Hebrew). So maybe you are far ahead of me, and I can't comment on Hebrew or other OL resources. However, as I understand it concerning Greek, the NA27 text is the basis of everything. Even taking into account that the text (not apparatus, layout etc) is identical to UBS4 text and very much alike to the SBLGNT that Logos gives away, the morphological tagging of the NA27 should help learners to come to a better understanding. The point in learning OLs (as I understand it) is to be able to go forward from the text into its meaning, instead of going backward from an existing translation that already conveys meaning into the greek text forms.
For people who follow what you termed the "ala carte"-approach, Logos has very helpful resource guides, for Greek it's http://www.logos.com/product/guide/greek-bible-texts-tools . You'll find that some tools (such as the Greek Audio NT - requires a morphologically tagged GNT such as NA27) are not contained in any packages at all. As an aside: for third-party-published resources or packages (such as those by AMG or Nelson) there may be the opportunity to save money by looking for sales elsewhere.
If you want to learn Biblical Greek, you'll most probably need
- a text (such as NA27)
- a textbook and grammar (there are lots of them, what I do: I look into product descriptions and sample pages, if
available, but I also look into customer reviews at e.g. Amazon) - vocabulary drill (sometimes contained in textbook; there is a vocabulary feature in Logos 3 and there are programs out there on the web to help)
- a lexicon (there are people that swear on BDAG, I find Louw-Nida helpful as the text is already keyed to it and it's a lot cheaper ;-)
- pronunciation (in the two base packages you referred to, but also available as standalone addin; this is lemma based only, otherwise you'll want to look into the Greek Audio NT)
- lots of energy, discipline and persistence, which Logos can't give you but which Logos can support with its tools and resources
God Bless,
Mick
Have joy in the Lord!
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I cannot recommend Scholar enough no matter what your goal happens to be. To study the language there are scores of books by Mounce and others to learn from. Wrestle with the text! You'll be glad you did.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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So I decided to stop overthinking things and to just go ahead and go with Scholar's, sicne I'm sure you're all dying to know.
I'm definitely going to keep in mind all of your suggestions and ideas. For now I'll see what I can do with the NA27 and such, and the wealth of Lexicons I now have at my disposal. I'll do some more research on the other tools and pick up some more later I'm sure.
Thanks again to everyone who took time to respond.
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m definitely going to keep in mind all of your suggestions and ideas. For now I'll see what I can do with the NA27 and such, and the wealth of Lexicons I now have at my disposal. I'll do some more research on the other tools and pick up some more later I'm sure.
If you don't already have it, I would suggest that you get BDAG -- don't accept any substitute. If you intend to learn Hebrew as well, you should get the BDAG-HALOT bundle since it is cheaper that way.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George, when I wrote the bit about some people swearing on BDAG, I thought of you and your usual advice... [:)]
Have joy in the Lord!
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George, when I wrote the bit about some people swearing on BDAG, I thought of you and your usual advice...
At the moment it's the best we have. Nothing else comes within shouting distance. So, "Save your Confederate money, boys" (wrong one) "Sell your first-born child and get it if you don't already have one.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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