The Holy Bible Translated from the Latin Vulgate updated 6/2/2011 [dr]

David Ames

Updated resource: what got changed?

Footnotes were NOT added

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JT (alabama24)

Another David was being a little snarky [just a little [;)]] and posted the title page of this resource which had a typo. He tempted them to see how long it took to get updated. It was updated in just over an hour.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/254766#Comment_254766

Here's the thread: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/34000.aspx

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/254785#Comment_254785

Thanks to alabama24 and Rosie Perera

I searched for Rheims, Douay and Vulgate and got zero hits - now I know why.

Also thanks to David Paul That text is a key part of one of my studies [I skipped the title page - I also skipped the OT (for now)]

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/254809#Comment_254809

¹² Et ingemiscens spiritu, ait : Quid generatio ista signum quærit ? Amen dico vobis, si dabitur generationi isti signum. Biblia Sacra Juxta Vulgatam Clementinam.,

Amen I say to you, if you will be given to this generation a sign. [Google Translate]

D-R | Mk 8:12 And sighing deeply in spirit, he saith: Why doth this generation seek a sign? Amen, I say to you, a sign shall not be given to this generation. The Holy Bible, Translated from the Latin Vulgate, Mk 8:12

When did the Vulgate drop the ‘no’ as in "no sign"? Mark 8:12

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/255752#Comment_255752

¹² Et ingemiscens spiritu, ait : Quid generatio ista signum quærit ? Amen dico vobis, si dabitur generationi isti signum. Biblia Sacra Juxta Vulgatam Clementinam.,

Amen I say to you, if you will be given to this generation a sign. [Google Translate]

D-R | Mk 8:12 And sighing deeply in spirit, he saith: Why doth this generation seek a sign? Amen, I say to you, a sign shall not be given to this generation. The Holy Bible, Translated from the Latin Vulgate, Mk 8:12

When did the Vulgate drop the ‘no’ as in "no sign"? Mark 8:12

Peace, David! *smile* And! Always Joy in the Lord!

The Vulgate did not drop the "no"............. if you study the Greek carefully, Jesus didn't finish the sentence .... he left them hanging ... (not so in Matthew!)

The Google translation had an "if" ... which is good! *smile*

To help you understand better what I am trying to say, I'm going to quote Lenski who is usually pretty good with the Greek...

12) And having sighed deeply in his spirit, he says, Why is this generation seeking a sign? Amen, I say to you, if a sign shall be given to this generation—. And having left them, having again embarked, he went away to the other side.

It is Mark who again notes the emotion of Jesus, namely, that he sighed deeply (

ἀνά in the participle) in his spirit (probably dative of relation, B.-D.187, in regard to his spirit). The sigh was audible; it is referred to the spirit of Jesus because this is the highest part of his human nature. The ψυχή is the immaterial part of man insofar as it animates the body; the πνεῦμα
is the same immaterial part insofar as it looks up to God. The sigh of Jesus expressed his grief because of the hardness of the hearts of these Pharisees who come seeking such a sign. Hence the complaint in the question: "Why is this generation seeking a sign?" i. e., such a sign. Matt. 16:4 states only that it is seeking a sign, but Matthew calls this a wicked and adulterous generation, one that is following the wicked one, is unfaithful to its covenant God. Jesus says "this generation" because these Pharisees represent a host of other obdurate unbelievers. Why do they want a sign? Not in order that they may believe but in order to tempt and to discredit Jesus.
These are not friends who in a mistaken way and unknowingly ask something improper of Jesus, whom he must in all kindness correct and instruct. These are treacherous enemies who can be properly answered in only one way. Matthew gives us the full account of how Jesus answered them, but the main point is that reported by Mark: Jesus refused this sign and left these enemies. On the formula "amen, I say to you" see 4:28. With this double seal of truth and of authority Jesus declares that they shall receive no such sign.
"If a sign shall be given to this generation" is a protasis without an apodosis; we may complete the sentence: "then it will be a far different sign," namely, as Matthew states, the sign of the prophet Jonah, the final, absolutely convincing sign of judgment, which, however, comes too late for saving faith. When B.-D.454, 5 calls this
εἰ after an oath Hebraistic and thus equal to the negation "not" he says too little. This εἰ resembles the Hebrew ’im but is an aposiopesis, the apodosis not being expressed, and does not mean οὐ
, "not." It is found in the papyri where Hebrew influence is excluded. R. 94. Note that the apodosis is one of reality and not of unreality. It thus hints at the fact that a sign shall be given to this generation, namely, one which it is least expecting.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/255827#Comment_255827

Thank you Milford.

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/255827#Comment_255827

Milford Charles Murray Replied [See prior post]

OK, I think I have done my homework
In most programming languages IF goes something like this:
IF (condition)     [protasis??]
THEN (yes, true, statement)     [apodosis??]

If we drop the condition the program will not compile but in a Language we would get a FALSE or NEGATIVE result so all of the modern Bibles [after 1582] ‘correct’ the language to read ‘No Sign’ [effectively interpreting the statement for us]. Jerome in 406 did not correct the language nor did he interpret it and just translated, more or less, word for word and let us try to figure it out.

Assume that you quoted from The Interpretation of St. Mark’s Gospel by R. C. H. Lenski [will add that $300 set to my wish list] The Logos Product description states “with meticulous exegetical research while providing an original, literal translation of the text”

Also assume that this is his translation? - Thanks
12) And having sighed deeply in his spirit, he says, Why is this generation seeking a sign? Amen, I say to you, if a sign shall be given to this generation—. And having left them, having again embarked, he went away to the other side

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/256221#Comment_256221

Milford Charles Murray Replied [See prior post]

OK, I think I have done my homework
In most programming languages IF goes something like this:
IF (condition)     [protasis??]
THEN (yes, true, statement)     [apodosis??]

If we drop the condition the program will not compile but in a Language we would get a FALSE or NEGATIVE result so all of the modern Bibles [after 1582] ‘correct’ the language to read ‘No Sign’ [effectively interpreting the statement for us]. Jerome in 406 did not correct the language nor did he interpret it and just translated, more or less, word for word and let us try to figure it out.

Assume that you quoted from The Interpretation of St. Mark’s Gospel by R. C. H. Lenski [will add that $300 set to my wish list] The Logos Product description states “with meticulous exegetical research while providing an original, literal translation of the text”

Also assume that this is his translation? - Thanks
12) And having sighed deeply in his spirit, he says, Why is this generation seeking a sign? Amen, I say to you, if a sign shall be given to this generation—. And having left them, having again embarked, he went away to the other side

Peace to you, David! And ............... Always Joy in our Lord Jesus!

I have read many of your posts in the past, David, and I wish to strongly commend you for your diligence to studying and getting at the true autograph of the inspired Biblical writers. You work hard; and you think well -- because you are always open to any evidence of the truth. I do indeed commend you! *smile*

Lenski is one of my most favourite commentators. I grant you that sometimes he is a bit "stiff" and "formal" -- but what's wrong with that, eh? *smile*

That is indeed his translation as your surmised.

My original point is that the Vulgate is quite a "reasonable" translation on this point at least.

I like Lenski; however, Word Biblical Commentary is also quite good re. this passage: *smile*

Perhaps you have Word? Here is a Quote:

"Sign" (

σημεῖον) consistently differs in Mark from "wonders" or "miracles" (δυνάμεις
). Nowhere in the Synoptics does "sign" refer to a "miracle" or is a miraculous event called a "sign." Coming as this story does at the height of Jesus’ miracle working in Mark (cf. 4:35–5:43; 6:30–8:9) and in view of the repeated summary statements reflecting Jesus’ reputation as a miracle worker (1:32–34, 45; 3:7–12; 6:53–56) extending even to gentile territory (7:25, 32), the reader can hardly doubt that the Pharisees knew about Jesus’ miracles. Indeed, his deeds as well as his words had raised their question.
They sought a "sign" in the OT Jewish sense, a confirmation or authentication of Jesus’ ministry (e.g., 1 Sam 2:30–33; 10:1–8; Deut 13:1–2; Isa 7:10–14; Linton, ST 19 [1965] 112–29; K. H. Rengstorf, TDNT 7 [1971] 234–36). Since they wanted "outward compelling proof of divine authority" (Cranfield, 257) rather than a display of power,
σημεῖον (cf. אות, ˒ōt) instead of δύναμις
became the appropriate term. The latter left too many questions (cf. 1:27; 3:22).
"A sign from heaven" (
σημεῖον ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ
) can be understood in two ways. The first occurs in an apocalyptic setting and refers to signs in the heavens of cosmic proportions commonly associated with the end of time, a period of catastrophe and judgment (e.g., 13:24–25; cf. 4 Ezra 5:4; 7:39; so Lohmeyer, 155; Grundmann, 207; Schweizer, 159). Accordingly, the Pharisees wanted Jesus to produce a convincing "apocalyptic" sign authenticating the eschatological character of his ministry. The second takes "from heaven" to be simply a periphrasis for "from God" (e.g., K. H. Rengstorf, TDNT 7 [1971] 235–36; Pesch, 1:407; Gnilka, 1:307). Accordingly, they were asking that God personally step in and confirm Jesus’ credibility.
Of the two alternatives, the latter fits this context better. First, their request corresponded to the OT Jewish concern to authenticate a prophet’s implicit or explicit claim (e.g., Deut 13:2–6; 18:18–22; 2 Kgs 20:1–11; Isa 7:10–14; cf. 1 Cor 1:22), a concern that became applicable to the eschatological prophet or messiah as well (Str-B, 1:640–41; 721–22; Mark 13:22). Second, Mark’s narrative has portrayed Jesus from the outset as the one coming to announce the Kingdom (1:14–15; 4:1–34) whose presence and work fulfills the promise of Scripture, especially Isaiah (cf. 1:1–15; 7:36). But this ministry has succeeded in only confounding the religious representatives, the "scribes and Pharisees." Third, the use of the divine passive (
δοθήσεται
) in 8:12 indicates that they had wanted God to grant them such an authenticating sign. Therefore, "from heaven" as a periphrasis for "God" belongs with the divinum passivum of 8:12 in a pre-Markan tradition reflecting Jewish sensitivity to the use of God’s name (cf. Kertelge, Wunder, 24).
"In order to test him" (
πειράζοντες αὐτόν
). So far the Pharisees comply with normal Jewish concern about the word and work of one who claims to be ministering for God. One could hardly fault them for pursuing their concern with Jesus whose unorthodox "religious" impact was obvious to the reader. But the same expression occurs again in 10:2 and 12:15 and changes the mode from legitimate inquiry to harassment. Their question intends to compromise Jesus (cf. 1:13) either as one who cannot or will not provide the "sign." He loses in either case. Consistent with the portrait to this point in Mark’s narrative, the statement betrays the Pharisees’ orientation as adversaries.

12
ἀναστενάξας) renders an NT hapax legomenon, though the root (στενάζειν
) does occur in 7:34. For some the verb expresses a deep emotional reaction to pain parallel to the anger of 1:41 (cf. John 11:33). The unbelieving response of the Pharisees, the leading religious party of Israel, caused him deep pain in his spirit (Taylor, 362; Grundmann, 208; similarly, Lane, 277). For others the verb expresses more formally the "spiritual excitement" experienced by the prophet moved deeply in his person prior to an utterance or an action (cf. Ezek 21:11–12 LXX; Isa 21:2 LXX; John 13:21, Pesch, 1:408; similarly Ernst, 223). The latter alternative corresponds more with the context in which Jesus is asked like a prophet for an authenticating sign (8:11) and what follows also takes the form of a prophetic utterance, one of judgment.
"Why … seek a sign?" (
τὶ … ζητεῖ σημεῖον
begins Jesus’ response with a rhetorical question that exposes the disposition of the questioners. Their request comes as incongruous, since they have rejected the "signs" that God has already given them through Jesus’ ministry. Why then ask for a sign?
By addressing them as "this generation" (
ἡ γενεὰ αὕτη
), Jesus uses a designation applied to the "generation" of Noah’s day (Gen 7:1) and the stubborn, disobedient wilderness wanderers in Ps 95:10–11 (cf. Deut 32:5, 20). Here it is a pejorative term referring to those who turned their backs on God, "Sons in whom is no faithfulness" (Deut 32:20). The same designation occurs later in 8:38 and 9:19 with reference to Jesus’ contemporary generation characterized as "adulterous, sinful" (8:38) and "unbelieving" (9:19). For Mark, the Pharisees epitomize "this generation" who repeatedly refuse to respond to God’s overture in Jesus and have the audacity to request a sign, a request that stems from their unbelief (cf. 6:5–6a).
"I assure you" (
ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν
), a solemn introductory formula of prophetic character, sets the tone of the following pronouncement (see Comment on 3:28–29).
The pronouncement itself comes in the form of an elliptical oath formula. Literally, we have, "If a sign shall be given to this generation …" (
εἰ δοθήσεται τῇ γενεᾷ ταύτῃ σημεῖον
). The apodosis is missing. But many have found an underlying Hebraic idiom that renders the conditional literally, "If a sign shall be given to this generation, may I die!" or "may I be cursed!" (e.g., Taylor, 362; Klostermann, 76). Ps 94:11 LXX, Gen 14:23; Num 32:11: Deut 1:35; 1 Kgs 3:14 provide OT parallels for this single, NT occurrence of the oath formula. The thrust of such a formula is an emphatic denial of the request. Jesus absolutely refused to grant their request here and in a similar setting in 11:27–33.
"hing deeply in his spirit" (