Going back on my principles (AKA Office 2007 or 2010)

Logos has some kind of power over me I'm not able to quantify.

I have sternly resisted installing any flavor of Microsoft Office on my computer for a very very very long time. OpenOffice.org has been very good to me over the years after I finally bailed on Lotus Wordpro. Alas, my will is almost broken. I can continue learning to write docx via libre office as Ebbe offered elsewhere or I can just bite the bullet and begin to standardize along with the rest of the world.

I already run an MS computer, why not run an MS word processor. I've got access to office 2007 but before I put my hands on it and stuff it into my CD drive, is there any reason I might want to go to 2010 instead?

I know this isn't precisely Logos specific, but since it involves Logos and PBB - it applies.

Alright guys, I'm trusting you for honest feedback. Let's have it.

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Comments

Clinton Thomas

Office 2007 was the first one with the ribbon, 2010 is like the second year of a new car line. They have improved the UI in my opinion but not significantly.

Since you are new to office you will not have (guessing here) a lot of files with macros. 2010 seems way more insane about blocking macros. Also, macros for 2007 may need tweaking to run under 2010.

Bottom line if I already have 2007, I would not buy 2010 unless I was getting it for nothing/next to nothing.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/256927#Comment_256927

Thanks for the feedback Clinton.

A friend has gifted me office 2007 home and student, (He bought the full -not upgrade- version of Office 2010 so it's a legal gift)

I'm also relentlessly addicted to "latest and greatest" technology - my undoing at times.

So there's a bit more information to chew on for anyone else who wants to direct me. I found Office 2010 home and student for about $115 with shipping so there's a large difference between Free and Fee.

Is there *anything* in 2010 worth the extra $115? (to anybody?)

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/256932#Comment_256932

There were only two reasons I upgraded to Office 2010, which may or may not apply to you:

Outlook 2010 supports multiple exchange accounts
Publisher 2010 is significantly better than Publisher 2007 (which was barely updated from 2003).

After upgrade I also found out I liked the following features:

Document map is much better in Word 2010
You get a calendar preview when receiving meeting requests in Outlook 2010
You have an optional conversation view in Outlook 2010 (so that your entire to/from conversation temporarily appears when you click on an email)

Office 2010 is also better for collaboration, but I don't use that, and is slightly easier to use if you're migrating from Office 2003 and earlier (because they restored the file menu in 2010 which was removed in 2007).

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/256932#Comment_256932

Is there *anything* in 2010 worth the extra $115? (to anybody?)

Hi Tom,

$115 is about the limit of what I'd pay for the difference, but it's probably worth that for a few features:

It may be possible to tailor the ribbon in Office 2007 (they were pretty "proud" of it), but I never figured out how... it's easy in 2010. For me, that alone is huge.
I can save pdf natively from Word.
Finally, for large complex files with text & graphics mixed (a 25 year church history, most recent example--lots of pix in booklet formatted text on 8.5 x 17 paper), I find 2010 much less quirkier to work with.

Excel, Power Point, Access, Publisher, & Outlook (I have Office pro both versions) are also minorly tweaked better.

IMO, the combo of easier to use + later version make it worth that difference, but I wouldn't pay a lot more.

Helpful?

Ron

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/256932#Comment_256932

Thanks for the feedback Clinton.

A friend has gifted me office 2007 home and student, (He bought the full -not upgrade- version of Office 2010 so it's a legal gift)

I'm also relentlessly addicted to "latest and greatest" technology - my undoing at times.

So there's a bit more information to chew on for anyone else who wants to direct me. I found Office 2010 home and student for about $115 with shipping so there's a large difference between Free and Fee.

Is there *anything* in 2010 worth the extra $115? (to anybody?)

2010 fixes many of the things that many people complained about with the 2007 UI...making some of the new features of the ribbon more easily discoverable, etc. I've seen countless people sit down at 2007 for the first time and spend 10-15 minutes trying to figure out where the print button is hidden (it is in the "Office button"/"Office orb"...which isn't necessarily obvious). I haven't seen anyone have that problem with 2010, since all the applications now have a brightly colored "File" tab. They are generally minor changes, but usually worthwhile ones. Given the choice, I'd always choose 2010 over 2007 (think of 2010 as 2007 SR-1)...but it is hard to argue with free.

Graham Owen

I finally bailed on Lotus Wordpro

I still think that WordPro was better than Word is now!

any reason I might want to go to 2010 instead?

I use 2007 on my home Notebook and 2010 on my work one. I switch between them all of the time and never notice the difference!

A couple of observations on other comments.

1 - If you have the student version Outlook is not included, I agree 2010 is better than 2007 as observed elsewhere but its not going to help you. Publisher is also not included.

2 - I create PDFs on my home system nearly every day using the built in features of 2007, Only difference between 2010 and 2007 is that in 2007 you need to use save as PDF whereas in 2010 theres a menu dedicated to it.

Personally I'd be asking what Logos resource $115 could fund.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/256965#Comment_256965

Here is a link to what's new in 2010.

More importantly, I would be concerned a little about changes in XML support. The XML file format was modified after Word 2007, as 2007 supports ECMA-376 and 2010 supports ISO/IEC 29500:2008, in two variants .A Transitional variant is intended for legacy compatibility and is not supposed to be used to produce new documents. Word 2010 supports reading and writing Transitional documents but only reading Strict documents. More support for Strict is coming in future versions.

Why is all that important? Logos' PBB use of Word's XML capability will most certainly be tied to their latest version. For the relatively small price of upgrade, you can be certain not to run into a version issues that may take longer to fix because they are lower priority. To me, it's just not worth it given there ARE clear differences in XML support.

My .02.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/256965#Comment_256965

Just to clarify the comments above on PDFs in Word. Word 2010 saves PDFs out of the box. Word 2007 requires a free download from MS to save as PDF.

Regarding WordPro - I'm old enough to remember AmiPro, and still have WordPro installed. WordPro '97 was better than Word 2003, but was finally overtaken by Word 2007 (IMO).

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/256932#Comment_256932

A friend has gifted me office 2007 home and student, (He bought the full -not upgrade- version of Office 2010 so it's a legal gift)

When I looked at the home/student EULA, it specifically excluded use by non-profits. When I asked for clarification from MS (in one of their forums), I was told that even if I own my own computer and purchased with my own money, if my use was primarily for my work for the church, it would not be within the EULA for me to use it.

Recently, I went to a certain company that is Consistent about providing Computer related Bargains to non-profit organizations, and purchased Office 2010 Pro for just over $100. It's good for only one installation (can't put it on both desktop and laptop), but it'll do for this purpose.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/256985#Comment_256985

Office 2010 is also better for collaboration,

Does this mean multiple input from various authors would be possible for building massive PBB's? Would this require a sharepoint server or perhaps an already on the web (free) solution?

IMO, the combo of easier to use + later version make it worth that difference, but I wouldn't pay a lot more.

Helpful?

Incredibly helpful brother. I'm grateful again for the feedback.

I haven't seen anyone have that problem with 2010, since all the applications now have a brightly colored "File" tab.

This is something of a moot question but, is that due to better design...or increasing familiarity with the ribbon interface?

Given the choice, I'd always choose 2010 over 2007 (think of 2010 as 2007 SR-1)...but it is hard to argue with free.

That final statement is precisely where my struggle is coming from. Free versus not-free is a big deal. Obviously I'm willing to pay for something that does what I need it to. Case in point: Logos.

I still think that WordPro was better than Word is now!

Solidarity is so comforting. [y]. As for outlook not being in the home pack, that doesn't bother me. I don't believe I'd use it since Gmail/google calendar/google contacts already sync to my blackberry. (My Android is still waiting for Logos before I purchase it. :-) )

Here is a link to what's new in 2010.

Your google-fu trumps mine this time. I spent too much time looking for precisely that information from Microsoft. I found short lists from lockergnome and a few other sites but couldn't find this one. Thank you for the needle in the haystack!!!

More importantly, I would be concerned a little about changes in XML support. The XML file format was modified after Word 2007, as 2007 supports ECMA-376 and 2010 supports ISO/IEC 29500:2008, in two variants .A Transitional variant is intended for legacy compatibility and is not supposed to be used to produce new documents. Word 2010 supports reading and writing Transitional documents but only reading Strict documents. More support for Strict is coming in future versions.

Why is all that important? Logos' PBB use of Word's XML capability will most certainly be tied to their latest version. For the relatively small price of upgrade, you can be certain not to run into a version issues that may take longer to fix because they are lower priority. To me, it's just not worth it given there ARE clear differences in XML support.

I was already familiar with this particular snag. It's why I reacted earlier with ... disapointment when I found out DocX was the chosen vessel. <sigh /> But I will not get into that again, my thoughts are posted elsehwere. It is however precisely the forward looking compatibility that has me eyeing 2010 with the most interest.

When I looked at the home/student EULA, it specifically excluded use by non-profits. When I asked for clarification from MS (in one of their forums), I was told that even if I own my own computer and purchased with my own money, if my use was primarily for my work for the church, it would not be within the EULA for me to use it.

Recently, I went to a certain company that is Consistent about providing Computer related Bargains to non-profit organizations, and purchased Office 2010 Pro for just over $100. It's good for only one installation (can't put it on both desktop and laptop), but it'll do for this purpose.

That is particularly concerning Richard. And frankly, now that I know this is the case I cannot in good conscience serve Christ with a free home version of 2007. IMHO you've made my decision. If you don't mind - is there a link you can email me to that company? I believe you have my email address. tcblack stilltruth and all that.

Ron

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/256998#Comment_256998

This is something of a moot question but, is that due to better design...or increasing familiarity with the ribbon interface?

It is due to better design. Sorry, I wasn't very clear...I was comparing people that I watched move from 2003 to 2007 vs people that I watched move from 2003 to 2010. I've seen large numbers of people in both situations due to working in IT and invariably, the transition from 2003 to 2010 goes more smoothly than 2003 to 2007 due to better and more obvious/intuitive interface design.

EDIT: I should also note that almost all "average users" that I've worked with that have used both 2007 and 2010 prefer 2010 by a large margin, though they often can't articulate why. I tend to attribute it to the more refined user interface. The changes are subtle, but make a big difference.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257015#Comment_257015

The one thing I have not seen mentioned is PowerPoint 2010's handling of Videos. It is far easier to embed them in the document with 2010. Also, They can be trimmed and faded. So if you want to show a 50 second clip of a 5 minute video put it in your presentation, Trim it (a very easy task) and then optimize the presentation. It will get rid of the trimmed portions and embed the video for a smaller file.

I'm a latest and greatest nut too, so I understand. For me, I got 2010 Professional version for $20 through a military program :-)

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/256998#Comment_256998

Office 2010 is also better for collaboration,
Does this mean multiple input from various authors would be possible for building massive PBB's? Would this require a sharepoint server or perhaps an already on the web (free) solution?

I believe a good deal of the functionality works with Microsoft Live SkyDrive (which is free).

If you don't mind - is there a link you can email me to that company? I believe you have my email address. tcblack stilltruth and all that.

Check out which words he capitalised, and then practice that Google-fu of yours [;)]

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/256998#Comment_256998

If you don't mind - is there a link you can email me to that company? I believe you have my email address. tcblack stilltruth and all that.

Done.

Kenny Larsen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/256998#Comment_256998

Hi Thomas,

Richard is right regarding the EULA of home and student as we had a similar issue with people who do the Powerpoint for church on a Sunday either designing or running the PP from their own laptops with the home edition. However, MS do offer charity licenses to non-profits which are about the same price (if not slightly cheaper) than the home version, depending on where you live will depend on where you buy these from but MS would be able to help.

As an aside, to those who are linked to either a University or Bible College you can get the Academic version (not Student and Home) which doesn't have this licensing restriction for about £40.

Kenny

Ebbe Andréasson

OpenOffice.org has been very good to me over the years after I finally bailed on Lotus Wordpro.

Do you know that a bunch of developers leaved Oracle and OpenOffice some months ago and started LibreOffice? Switching to LibreOffice doesn't need any re-learning. LibreOffice works as OOo but with a little different UI (the toolbar icons is different). Your macros, plugins and everything (I think) will still work.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257015#Comment_257015

EDIT: I should also note that almost all "average users" that I've worked with that have used both 2007 and 2010 prefer 2010 by a large margin, though they often can't articulate why. I tend to attribute it to the more refined user interface. The changes are subtle, but make a big difference.

Count me as one and I don't know why! [:D]

Ron

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257239#Comment_257239

Count me as one and I don't know why!

Well, now you can tell everyone that you like 2010 better than 2007 because of the refined user interface [:D]

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257180#Comment_257180

MS do offer charity licenses to non-profits

Hi there,

I've inquired about those to MS friends, who tell me that while it USED to be that "charity" included churches, they're now careful to target non-religious use within charities... the charity (or use within the charity) must be related to health or human services.

If you find out differently, I'd sure like to know. [:)]

Blessings!

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257243#Comment_257243

I've inquired about those to MS friends, who tell me that while it USED to be that "charity" included churches, they're now careful to target non-religious use within charities... the charity (or use within the charity) must be related to health or human services.

If you find out differently, I'd sure like to know.

Bill,

You are stating this correctly. I've searched and found many such notations, but the official TECH nical SOUP channel used by Microsoft very clearly spells out the terms as stated. A religious organization can use charity licenses to run a food pantry, but not a church. The aforementioned (and googleable) company Richard mentioned has the best deal I've found.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257271#Comment_257271

A religious organization can use charity licenses to run a food pantry, but not a church.

Yep... so if a church has a ministry (discrete line item in its budget) dedicated to health & human services, that ministry can apply to MS... (have done that in a prior church). But not the church.

The aforementioned (and googleable) company Richard mentioned has the best deal I've found.

Blessings on your journey, Tom.

Thanks for all you do for us.

Kenny Larsen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257283#Comment_257283

Seems you are right. Glad I got the academic order in for my copy whilst I'm still a student. That puts that plan for PP out, looks like the 'we had' is still a 'we have', I guess we'll head open source.

This thread possible highlights a significant issue with PBB only really being useful with MS Word....

Kenny

JimTowler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257358#Comment_257358

Well, its not that PBB needs Word. It just needs the right format file, mostly made by Word. I can't see why Logos could not also add a few more types of tags for the portions that Word creates, so the document could be submitted in plain text. Then anyone could use any wp tool they liked as long as they manually added all the tags, or passed it thru a comversion phase before feeding it to Logos PBB. Maybe not a great UI, but making it possible for those that don't have, can't afford or can't run a recent Microsoft Word. Given that the PBB engine is already scanning for special manualy created tags just add a few more, and leave it to the users to support any toolsets for file conversions from various editors. But as I have full Word 2007 and Home Word 2010, I have the direct methods. But I dont see myself making every resources I wish to read. This works best if others are doing documents they have access to, or are writing things that can be said, and sharing or selling to others.

Vincent Setterholm

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257381#Comment_257381

Word 2010 does correct a number of mistakes with regards to the rendering of Greek, Hebrew and Syriac and does a significantly better job of supporting some of the newer Unicode scripts that use more than 2 bytes per character, such as Ugaritic. So if your needs include working with ancient scripts, there's good reason to go with the latest version.

James W Bennett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257773#Comment_257773

Word 2010 does correct a number of mistakes with regards to the rendering of Greek, Hebrew and Syriac and does a significantly better job of supporting some of the newer Unicode scripts that use more than 2 bytes per character, such as Ugaritic. So if your needs include working with ancient scripts, there's good reason to go with the latest version.

Now if we can just get proper rendering of Syriac within L4 (e.g. .NET4). Oops, that was OT, I'll take that over to a different thread [:)]

James W Bennett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257773#Comment_257773

With all of the mangling that Word seems to do to the OpenXML format, wouldn't it make more sense to have PBB just read OpenXML standard compliant files and let users either create OpenXML files directly or through well behaved XML based editors rather than forcing the use of .docx files?

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257793#Comment_257793

With all of the mangling that Word seems to do to the OpenXML format, wouldn't it make more sense to have PBB just read OpenXML

I must confess that I'm not convinced about the implementation of PBB with docx so far. If it was felt to be more convenient for (Windows) users its use of XML seems to have caught Logos unaware. The use of OpenXML may not be straightforward for the average user, but could be more viable for Mac users? So I would envisage it as an alternative to docx.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/256998#Comment_256998

Helpful?

Incredibly helpful brother. I'm grateful again for the feedback.

I haven't seen anyone have that problem with 2010, since all the applications now have a brightly colored "File" tab.

This is something of a moot question but, is that due to better design...or increasing familiarity with the ribbon interface?

Given the choice, I'd always choose 2010 over 2007 (think of 2010 as 2007 SR-1)...but it is hard to argue with free.

For me the ribbon has absolutely no influence since I kill the ribbon. I don't need more garbage to take up space on the screen. I think the ribbon is a huge mistake.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257802#Comment_257802

The more options and variations that Logos supports, the longer and costlier it is to build. The many with Word 2007-2010 can already save .docx natively. Everyone else had a number of free options: LibreOffice, NeoOffice, Office Live and ZoHo, all of which (apart from Neo) work across multiple platforms. Given this support, in my opinion, it would be foolish for Logos to waste development time supporting multiple formats.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257806#Comment_257806

One advantage with Word, with macros and the underlying Visual Basic programming capability in Word giving untold flexibility in customization, I have been anticipating some ways to make PBB creation much easier through Word Addons. It's premature to start or finalize any thoughts on this yet as things are too fluid in what PBB offers, tags, functions, its own UI, etc. But in my mind it's totally reasonable, and anticipated, that a library of Word Addons shared by users will make PBB creation much easier over time.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257835#Comment_257835

One advantage with Word, with macros and the underlying Visual Basic programming capability in Word giving untold flexibility in customization, I have been anticipating some ways to make PBB creation much easier through Word Addons. It's premature to start or finalize any thoughts on this yet as things are too fluid in what PBB offers, tags, functions, its own UI, etc. But in my mind it's totally reasonable, and anticipated, that a library of Word Addons shared by users will make PBB creation much easier over time.

You are, of course, speaking only for the Windows side of things here. MS Word 2008 for Mac killed Macros. Don't know if they were added back for 2011. Any right-to-left text handling will require Mac users to acquire and learn yet another second-rate Word Processor. For us, the decision to tie PBB to MS did not make things easier.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257845#Comment_257845

You are, of course, speaking only for the Windows side of things here. MS Word 2008 for Mac killed Macros. Don't know if they were added back for 2011. Any right-to-left text handling will require Mac users to acquire and learn yet another second-rate Word Processor. For us, the decision to tie PBB to MS did not make things easier.

Actually, Word for Mac 2011 brought back macros and the underlying Visual Basic infrastructure I am referring to.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257981#Comment_257981

Actually, Word for Mac 2011 brought back macros and the underlying Visual Basic infrastructure I am referring to.

Well, that is one plus. I knew MS promised to bring macros back after the uproar over removing them in 2008. Perhaps I need to take a look, even though it still will not handle right-to-left.

MS Word has remained my word processor of choice since version 1.1. It has been a long love-hate relationship. [8-|]

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257271#Comment_257271

Ugghh. Change is hard.

I can see this is going to be a learning curve. Following the tip from Richard I've secured a dazzling new copy of Office 2010 pro complete with every whizbang they offer - for a great price. (Thanks again Richard).

I appreciate all the feedback I've received from each of you as I began this thinking and transition. The transition part still remains.

I am so used to doing things the OpenOffice way that I can see I'm actually going to have to watch some of the MS video's on using Word. Blah blah blah.

Well there's nothing for it. Here I go.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/258498#Comment_258498

Ugghh. Change is hard.

Tell me about it. One of the hardest things for me to get used to is the concept of styles, and that of compartmentalized text. It makes sense from an XML perspective, but not from a flow of thought perspective (which I love about WordPerfect). I realize for some things I'll just have to get used to the way Word does it, for other things I'll have to find work-arounds to do what I want to do. (I find it very frustrating (e.g.), that you can't have something left & right justified on the same line; you have to use special tabs instead of something simple - AAARRRRG!)

BTW, Rosie was very gracious in answering some of my initial questions. You might want to send her an email and see if she's just as gracious with you.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/258498#Comment_258498

I am so used to doing things the OpenOffice way that I can see I'm actually going to have to watch some of the MS video's on using Word.

The transition to 2007/10 is not as hard as it first appears. There's a nice internal logic for almost everything, and the interface is really very good. I'm sure it won't take long. (And don't forget the help file when you can't find where a particular menu-item has now been placed.)

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/259247#Comment_259247

Given that I've spent the last three hours on tech support to attempt a correction with skydrive saving, I'm less impressed than I could be.

Next up: level two support call tomorrow. (sigh) For now, sermon study.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/259315#Comment_259315

skydrive saving

Hi Tom,

How are you using Skydrive?

Blessings!

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/259918#Comment_259918

At the moment I'm not.

Kidding.

I've been syncing my documents with it, and now I've discovered that in 2010 we can save directly to skydrive. If we do that in a public folder than we could have multiple word 2010 users working on the same document even simultaneously.

So all my wrestlings to get it to work at the moment are looking towards the potential release of PBB and the potential of crafting very large projects (or small ones) in community.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/259937#Comment_259937

Sounds promising for PBB!

Re Skydrive, I'm still iffy on cloud security & privacy (not that I have anything to store that I'd be embarrassed if anyone saw), so I've taken another tack... network storage on my home network. And I've finally found a backup software that works the way I'd always hoped... With WD's Mybook World & WD Anywhere Backup, I set the directory I want to back up to, & as files change it backs them up. Never have to worry about it again...

Where cloud storage may actually be better, though, is for off site storage. I don't have a good plan there... so what all do you back up? Everything? Just the stuff you're working on? Other? Since this is OT for forums, maybe we should take this conversation off line if you're willing to continue... my gmail account is stoney73.

Blessings!