Hebrew Word study problem on nch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257395#Comment_257395

ןNo although the screen shot pastes into the reply it doesn't seem to want to post it. See if this gif works better

Unfortunately your screenshot isn't working. You need to click the paperclip, then attach the screenshot as a JPG or PNG file. But to try and answer your queries:

The difference with Gramcord is more than likely due to different tagging methodology, almost certainly largely the result of AFAT treating nch as four homophones and Gramcord (presumably) as three. (I presume Gramcord merges AFATs 1 & 2.) It's worth trying a different Hebrew Bible in Logos if you have one for the sake of comparison.
I'm getting 70 hits at the bottom, too. What search is executed if you click on 'Hebrew Bible'?
In Hebrew the preposition is a very long way away from the verb (the verb's at the beginning of the sentence, the preposition almost at the end ), and therefore syntactically the two are not directly related that I can see. "Upon the mountains of Ararat" relates to the whole of the rest of the sentence, not the resting specifically.

Hope that makes sense.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257401#Comment_257401

OK, now I can see your screenshot I can add a bit more. If you run these three searches, you should see the homophone differences:

<lemma = af/he/נח:1> (run this search in AFAT)
<lemma = af/he/נח:2> (also in AFAT)
<Lemma = lls/he/נוח:1.v> (run this search in WHM4.2, and it will roughly equate to both the two earlier searches and give you 140 results)

The reason you're getting zero results at the bottom is because you've done the BWS on AFAT (that's the default if you just choose BWS from the Tools menu), but your default Hebrew Bible is WHM4.2. But Logos can't run the search in WHM4.2 because the homophones don't line up between the two versions.

The fix is to either set your default OT Bible to AFAT, or run the BWS directly from WHM4.2 from the right-click menu.

(I've assumed a lot in those two posts. Please feel free to ask for clarification.)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257403#Comment_257403

Thanks Mark

A) Thats all pretty clear and I'll know what to watch for next time. AFAT it seems treats the 2 Hiphils as homonyms rather than variations of the same word, which is fair enough. The question was how to know this from the Word Study tab!

Because I was using the Bible Word study tab and drop down choices I saw the 4 options:

1 rest

2. deserting, open space

3. open space, structure

4 Noah

as the core meaning is rest in lexicons and it came in at number 1 I assumed that number 1 would be the verb I needed. Had I chosen option 2 (which didn't look at all right) I would in fact have got closer to what I was looking for.

I have to say I find Logos incredibly difficult to do Hebrew searches in after Gramcord where complex Hebrew grammar was intuitive to search. I guess I really need to get to grips with the morph searching rather than use word study but composing statements like <Lemma = lls/he/נוח:1.v> is incredibly off putting even though I have a first degree in computer programming before switching to theology.

I don't suppose I can change the default OT Bible for Word Study to WHM4.2 as I usually come cold to a word study and don't want to have to find one in the BHS to right click on! I seem to have managed to change the Morph Search so it comes up with WHM4.2 on opening.

Also when I right click on the word in Gen 8:4 I get a bible word study of the waw not of nch, so how would I do it using right click anyway?

C)and yes the preposition 'upon' is a long way from the verb in Gen 8:4 although they are related, but I was wanting to see where else they were together. Gramcord has 5 instances where the verb and 'upon' are next to each other and 5 more with only 1 intervening word and those 10 examples are what I was wanting. The one thing I do like about Logos is the preposition feature in Word Study. But none of the 4 options in the drop down box bring up any of these instances and all have 'upon' greyed out. I guess I would have to change my default OT bible to AFAT which I don't want to do even if I knew how to do it. I'm familiar with the WHM4.2 whereas AFAT is clearly doing something different to what I expect with this verb.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257599#Comment_257599

PS just for Hebrew comment nothing to do with searching: in Gen 8:4 'upon the mountains of Ararat' does relate directly to the beginning of the sentence to the 'ark resting' because all that is intervening is a date namely the 17th day of the seventh month, and a date can't be upon a mountain, so just as most English translations treat it, this is a case of verb + prep, however I would not expect a computer to recognise this, (unless its Artificial Intelligence training was very good!) and would not expect it to show up in a list, but I would expect other examples where the preposition has not got separated from its verb - the 10 examples found by Gramcord to show up once I got the right search and bible etc. I'm sure they will if I can get it right

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257599#Comment_257599

Again I'm very grateful for your help. As you can tell I'd rather stick with Gramcord, but that is not an option into the future (not least because Gramcord stopped working due to some conflict when I loaded new Linguist's Software fonts. Though both groups deny there could be any conflict - it happens on every computer as soon as I load the fonts Gramcord stops working, so I am down to using Gramcord on an old machine which won't last much longer), so the option is buy Bible Works or work out how to do it in Logos. So many thanks.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257603#Comment_257603

Again I'm very grateful for your help. As you can tell I'd rather stick with Gramcord, but that is not an option into the future (not least because Gramcord stopped working due to some conflict when I loaded new Linguist's Software fonts. Though both groups deny there could be any conflict - it happens on every computer as soon as I load the fonts Gramcord stops working, so I am down to using Gramcord on an old machine which won't last much longer), so the option is buy Bible Works or work out how to do it in Logos. So many thanks.

Could you give some clarification regarding this? Everyone who has Logos has Linguist fonts.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257599#Comment_257599

Glad my explanations makes sense, even if Logos itself isn't quite making sense yet!

I have to say I find Logos incredibly difficult to do Hebrew searches in after Gramcord where complex Hebrew grammar was intuitive to search. I guess I really need to get to grips with the morph searching rather than use word study but composing statements like <Lemma = lls/he/נוח:1.v> is incredibly off putting even though I have a first degree in computer programming before switching to theology.

Actually, you don't need to learn that syntax. That syntax is required in a bible search, but it's not required in a morph search. In a morph search you specify the morphology using dropdown menus, rather than using search parameters. So, to do your study using WHM data:

Go to search and make sure morph is selected
Choose WHM4.2 from the resource dropdown and make sure Hebrew (not Aramaic) is on the morphology menu
Type lemma:נוח in the search box, and choose the right value from the dropdown. If you want to transliterate it's actually lemma:nwh or lemma:nwch in WHM.
If you wish, you can then do a BWS (Bible Word Study) direct from the BHS by right-clicking. When you right-click, notice that in the right-hand side of the menu there is a choice of two lemmas. Make sure it's to the waw that's selected.

Hopefully that method better suits your way of working, and it avoids much of the AFAT morphology for you. However, the BWS relies on AFAT (the data just doesn't exist in the other morphologies), apart from the textual searches link at the bottom. If you run a BWS from WHM, Logos has to try and map the WHM data onto the AFAT database, which is often unsatisfactory (and is in this case).

If you want to understand how the editors of AFAT 'see' the passage in question (and why it doesn't show up as you expect in prepositions), you should open the The Hebrew Bible : Andersen-Forbes Phrase Marker Analysis (0.90) resource. You may not agree with them, but at least you'll know.

Logos allows you to create your own syntax searches (in AFAT only) which gives you more control over this type of thing. Syntax searches are a bit of a dark art, but very powerful. They're accessed through the file menu.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257623#Comment_257623

George the problem with Linguist's fonts is with Gramcord NOT with Logos. Never fear. Logos and Linguist's Software work fine, well at least on my computer!

The remark was just an aside

Moreover the fonts themselves don't seem to cause a problem. It's when I load the extra Linguist's software (not what you get in Logos but what you get direct from Linguist's Software when you buy their full package) that Gramcord stops working. This extra software transforms the keyboard etc. for ease of typing all the diacritical marks, and clearly change some settings used by Gramcord permanently. I have uninstalled the Linguists Software and reinstalled Gramcord, but it never works again on the machine. Gramcord have tried to help me, but to no avail. As I say not a Logos problem, just the reason why I have to switch from Gramcord to either Logos or Bible Works. I hope that it will be Logos I switch to, but I don't find it all easy for the high level grammatical searches I need to do. In Gramcord I just type in the root and bingo. Here I have to choose between 4 different lemma options and have to try all 4 before I find out which works with my bible and I'm only half way towards finding what I really want which is *all* instances where the form of nwch is followed within say 2 words with the preposition *'l* upon.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257633#Comment_257633

what I really want which is *all* instances where the form of nwch is followed within say 2 words with the preposition *'l* upon

Is this what you are seeking? lemma:נוח.1.v BEFORE 2 WORDS @p1

I get only Ezek 21.22

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257628#Comment_257628

Thanks Mark - Syntax searches is where I want to get to (I'm working on a PhD of the Hebrew text of Genesis 6-8 so we're into detailed Hebrew grammar). I have been using Bible Word study because its much more intuitive than morph searches and mostly does ok, but you are right I need to get into morph searches and learn the lingo there, its just even with the drop down boxes slightly baffling.

But thanks I now understand how Bible Word Study works much better and what to expect and not expect, thats very clarifying.

Now if we wipe the slate clean and start from the beginning. If I want to find all the occurrences where the root nwch (I'm transliterating only cos I'm not sure my Hebrew font works here) occurs followed within 2 words with the preposition *'l* (upon). How would you do it starting from scratch given that the preposition box in Bible Word Study isn't finding any, but we know they exist. Thats probably where I should have started my forum question, sorry, but I've learnt a lot so far. Also I've got this in general is there a sub forum that it would be better to ask similar questions in the future?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257637#Comment_257637

Is this what you are seeking? lemma:נוח.1.v BEFORE 2 WORDS @p1

I get only Ezek 21.22

Getting much closer but probably after not before.

In Ezek 21:22 the preposition is 2 words before the verb, while I want it 1-2 words after the preposition

also I'm after ayin not aleph.How and where would I learn how to write that!

The answers should include Nums 11:25,26 1 Sam 6:18, 2 Sam 21:10, Ias 11:2; Isa 14:1, 30:32, 57:2; Jer 27:11, Zech 5:11

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257641#Comment_257641

Is this what you are seeking? lemma:נוח.1.v BEFORE 2 WORDS @p1

I get only Ezek 21.22

Getting much closer but probably after not before.

In Ezek 21:22 the preposition is 2 words before the verb, while I want it 1-2 words after the preposition

also I'm after ayin not aleph.How and where would I learn how to write that!

The answers should include Nums 11:25,26 1 Sam 6:18, 2 Sam 21:10, Ias 11:2; Isa 14:1, 30:32, 57:2; Jer 27:11, Zech 5:11

OK. The transliteration threw me off. I suggest you install the Hebrew keyboard from Logos then you can type the Hebrew directly into things. It comes with a PDF containing instructions. Here is what you want. Use the morph search. lemma:נוח.1.v BEFORE 2 WORDS lemma:עַל.2.P
I get 11 verses.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257643#Comment_257643

OK. The transliteration threw me off. I suggest you install the Hebrew keyboard from Logos then you can type the Hebrew directly into things. It comes with a PDF containing instructions. Here is what you want. Use the morph search. lemma:נוח.1.v BEFORE 2 WORDS lemma:עַל.2.P
I get 11 verses.

Thats it exactly thank you. Now where and how do I learn to write things like this???????

Sorry I can type Hebrew directly into things (thats what killed my Gramcord) however as computers have a habit of not liking even Unicode Hebrew ( your message came through as lemma:× ×•×—.1.v BEFORE 2 WORDS lemma:×¢Ö·×œ.2.P to my email), I tend to transliterate in forums and emails. But אל and על are transliterated identically and mean similarly so I wasn't clear enough.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257639#Comment_257639

Thanks Mark - Syntax searches is where I want to get to (I'm working on a PhD of the Hebrew text of Genesis 6-8 so we're into detailed Hebrew grammar). I have been using Bible Word study because its much more intuitive than morph searches and mostly does ok, but you are right I need to get into morph searches and learn the lingo there, its just even with the drop down boxes slightly baffling.

If you're doing OT, you'll soon race ahead of my in syntax searching (I'm NT largely). Here's my offering for a syntax search to do roughly what I think you want.

The 'secret' with syntax searching is to find the syntax in Phrase Marker Analysis, and then copy it into the Syntax search. At least, that's what I do!

Now if we wipe the slate clean and start from the beginning. If I want to find all the occurrences where the root nwch (I'm transliterating only cos I'm not sure my Hebrew font works here) occurs followed within 2 words with the preposition *'l* (upon). How would you do it starting from scratch given that the preposition box in Bible Word Study isn't finding any, but we know they exist. Thats probably where I should have started my forum question, sorry, but I've learnt a lot so far. Also I've got this in general is there a sub forum that it would be better to ask similar questions in the future?

Good plan! If you're happy in Hebrew, I'd do it like this:

Go to Morph search, and set it to WHM/Hebrew as I suggested above. Then type the following
lemma:נוח {choose from dropdown} BEFORE 2 WORDS lemma:עַל {choose from dropdown}

Regarding the forum choice. There isn't a specific forum for this, but most people would put this kind of question in the Logos 4 forum.

<edit>Regarding the syntax search - you could lose the finite verb and get a few more results</edit>

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257646#Comment_257646

Sorry I can type Hebrew directly into things (thats what killed my Gramcord) however as computers have a habit of not liking even Unicode Hebrew ( your message came through as lemma:× ×•×—.1.v BEFORE 2 WORDS lemma:×¢Ö·×œ.2.P to my email), I tend to transliterate in forums and emails. But אל and על are transliterated identically and mean similarly so I wasn't clear enough.

You can or you cannot type Hebrew directly into things? You may not have your browser set up to use unicode. Go to Tools | Internet Options | Fonts and set it to something like Tahoma (not the nicest, but I think it has everything you need to display things properly). While you're at it, check your e-mail program as well to see that you have it set to use UTF-8.

BTW: What OS are you using? What browser?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257651#Comment_257651

You can or you cannot type Hebrew directly into things? You may not have your browser set up to use unicode. Go to Tools | Internet Options | Fonts and set it to something like Tahoma (not the nicest, but I think it has everything you need to display things properly). While you're at it, check your e-mail program as well to see that you have it set to use UTF-8.

BTW: What OS are you using? What browser?

Many thanks for the help. I can type Hebrew directly, its not a problem.

I don't for the sake of those who can't read it - physically because there computer won't let them or cos they don't know Hebrew. So I transliterate. For instance my internet mail provider (Nildram) can't handle Hebrew and gives gobbledy gook for the emails of your post - so I have to come into the forum before I can read your post. There are no settings I can change to read it and there may be other people with computers who can't read it, so thats why I didn't use it.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257649#Comment_257649

The 'secret' with syntax searching is to find the syntax in Phrase
Marker Analysis, and then copy it into the Syntax search. At least,
that's what I do!

Thanks I shall have to explore syntax searching but first to master morph searches.

Where do you find a list of things like "Before 2 words"? Where would I learn that sort of thing?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257657#Comment_257657

I don't for the sake of those who can't read it - physically because there computer won't let them or cos they don't know Hebrew. So I transliterate. For instance my internet mail provider (Nildram) can't handle Hebrew and gives gobbledy gook for the emails of your post - so I have to come into the forum before I can read your post. There are no settings I can change to read it and there may be other people with computers who can't read it, so thats why I didn't use it.

I wouldn't worry about those who don't understand Hebrew. They wouldn't understand the transliteration either, and, although I understand Hebrew, I don't understand the transliteration. If your ISP doesn't support unicode, I would tell them to start doing so if they want to keep a customer. I wouldn't tolerate that. There must be others in the vicinity of Aylesbury who do support unicode.