Goodbye

Today's thread started by a likely forum troll and our community's inability to ignore it proves that no enforcement policy won't work.

I love Logos software, but I am leaving these forums. I am going to take a 30 day timeout and then I may check back and see if the chaos and anarchy still rules. So close to 2000 posts too... Sad

I have 7800 resources, I rely on this forum a lot so I hope I don't need support - if I do I guess I will be forced to call support (which is very good by the way, just that it's harder than posting a message). I enjoy trying to help others the little I can. But this place is just too much. I get the posts via email so when on a day like today the overwhelming percentage of posts are the ugly posts, it just becomes too much of a distraction.

It's amazing that anyone thinks an aggressive argumentative style will attract anyone to Christianity. We are such a sad bunch, it's no wonder that Christ prayed for unity at the Last Supper. He knew what a bunch of knuckleheads we were going to be.

It also amazes me that Logos thinks this approach of self-governance will actually work. This is not a theological issue, it is a rudeness, courtesy, and following the rules issue. I can't think of a single other forum governed in such a way.

Good luck and I'll pray things return to normal. I am sad to leave and I'll miss the regulars.

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Rick

I love Logos software, but I am leaving these forums. I am going to take a 30 day timeout and then I may check back and see if the chaos and anarchy still rules. So close to 2000 posts too...

I was thinking about doing the same Dominick, I don't know if I will make it a whole 30 days but it will be long enough to give some time for this stuff to be straightened out.

It's amazing that anyone thinks an aggressive argumentative style will attract anyone to Christianity. We are such a sad bunch, it's no wonder that Christ prayed for unity at the Last Supper. He knew what a bunch of knuckleheads we were going to be.

I agree that it is sad, but I have met a lot of "Christians" who behave this way. I have learned a lot about Christianity in my few years involved with it. I think that Bob's comments explain my frustrations with Christianity very well in this thread: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/35165.aspx

Thanks for all that you have done in the past, present and future Dominick. Peace be with you and all others here.

Rich DeRuiter

Today's thread started by a likely forum troll and our community's inability to ignore it proves that no enforcement policy won't work.

I must say that I'm rather disappointed and frustrated as well.

We have had some rather unwelcome and troll-like posters in the past (before this week) and they have generally not lasted more than a week or two, eventually leaving under pressure from the rest of the forum community.

Logos has tried deleting threads and banning posters, but there are always ways around that. So a no enforcement policy doesn't work well (as we've seen this week), but an enforcement policy doesn't seem to work well either (as we've also seen this week - Bob did kill that thread that this new [cough, cough] fellow seems to have restarted).

Let me suggest that we who choose to take the higher road, not let the factious bring us down, nor drive us away. These forums have surpassed 50,000 users. Don't let just one (probably the same guy all week, with different names) drive you out.

Jack Caviness

Good luck and I'll pray things return to normal. I am sad to leave and I'll miss the regulars.

Although I understand your reasons for leaving, it saddens me to see you take this action.

Edwin Bowden

Today's thread started by a likely forum troll and our community's inability to ignore it proves that no enforcement policy won't work.

I love Logos software, but I am leaving these forums. I am going to take a 30 day timeout and then I may check back and see if the chaos and anarchy still rules. So close to 2000 posts too...

I have 7800 resources, I rely on this forum a lot so I hope I don't need support - if I do I guess I will be forced to call support (which is very good by the way, just that it's harder than posting a message). I enjoy trying to help others the little I can. But this place is just too much. I get the posts via email so when on a day like today the overwhelming percentage of posts are the ugly posts, it just becomes too much of a distraction.

It also amazes me that Logos thinks this approach of self-governance will actually work. This is not a theological issue, it is a rudeness, courtesy, and following the rules issue. I can't think of a single other forum governed in such a way.

Good luck and I'll pray things return to normal. I am sad to leave and I'll miss the regulars.

Dominick,

1. I understand your feelings.

2. I hate that you feel you need to go. We will miss you.

3. It might help to turn off the email feeds so they don't overwhelm you. I come and check on the forums at my convenience and ignore the ones that are not of interest.

I was a part of a forum a few years ago that was a non-official denominiational forum. I really enjoyed the fellowship and dialogue. We had some that kept things stirred up, even with the same denominational affiliation.

One of the long-time moderators often offered the advice "Don't feed the trolls." When I first saw that, I wondered what he meant. After awhile, it became apparent. It is good advice on forums.

I was asked to be a moderator. I found it to be a very frustrating and time consuming job. I tended to overmoderate. I tried to intervene and settle feuds. I soon found that someone was always unhappy. The forum eventually died. I still miss it, but I decided that I would never want to be a moderator again.

I understand where Bob is coming from in his perspective. I wish everyone would respect the forum guidelines and enjoy the tremendous benefits that the Logos forum provides. It is among the most valuable resources that Logos provides.

Mark Smith

Good luck and I'll pray things return to normal. I am sad to leave and I'll miss the regulars.

You'll be missed, too.

I am also sick of the few threads that have gotten ugly and mean-spirited. A little of that goes a long way to souring folks on visiting here. Never-the-less the folks who can't seem to appreciate this forum for what it is supposed to be are very few in number compared to those who follow the guidelines and enjoy the information and sharing that this forum provides.

I'd suggest those of us who are concerned do what we usually do with other problems: pray about this one. Let's pray that Bob and others will have the wisdom to know how to deal properly with the issues, that the offenders will stop their pot stirring and see the value of getting along positively in a forum like this, and that people from all backgrounds will feel the Logos forum is a place to have their Logos-based questions answered without fear of running into some mean-spirited responses or antagonistic threads. I've decided I haven't done this. I should have been doing it all along. It's now on my Logos prayer list.

MJ. Smith

but I am leaving these forums

You will be missed but I understand your decision. This has been a perfect storm of new users from the celebration week, trolls, and timing of a Logos blog entry. I truly wish The Religious Case Against Belief by the religious studies professor James P. Carse was available in Logos.He presents a number of insight into why one turns to dogmatic, unshakable belief rather than a more open reason and faith. It is not a perfect book but it would be a nice addition to the Logos catalog.

Ward Walker

Today's thread started by a likely forum troll and our community's inability to ignore it proves that no enforcement policy won't work.

...

Good luck and I'll pray things return to normal. I am sad to leave and I'll miss the regulars.

I'm glad I missed whatever [:@]thread[:@] started all this angst; Dominick, enjoy your forum sabbatical [it will probably be very helpful to the quantity of study time you'll have [;)]] & hope to see you back here again later this summer!

Steven Lang

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265590#Comment_265590

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265600#Comment_265600

Dom,

I'll just add my voice to those who say that we'll miss you.

The long-timers and MVP's have become friends to me, though sometimes we disagree, I have still formed a bond with many of this group of which you are certainly one.

Do what you have to do....come back when you can. [:)]

Matthew C Jones

This is not a theological issue, it is a rudeness, courtesy, and following the rules issue.

You are right. "Submit to governing authorities", "Render unto Caesar", "Live peaceably with all", and "Love one another" are commands ignored by those who don't love Jesus. John 14:15 I guess they will "continue to sin that grace may abound." Romans 6:1 and continue "defiling many" until their root of bitterness is cut out." Hebrews 12:14-15

I love Logos
software, but I am leaving these forums. I am going to take a 30 day
timeout and then I may check back and see if the chaos and anarchy still
rules. So close to 2000 posts too... Sad

Rest, relax, rejuvenate and return! I will pray you find a loving community conducive to better Bible study when you check back.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265600#Comment_265600

Theology is not really the issue, they provide what sells and what people want and they have every right.

Three and a half Billion people presently claim a relationship with the God of Abraham (Ibriham, Abrahm)) in Genesis. People want to study the Bible. Logos makes software and resources available to that end. They are not a church or mission.

I am 100% opposed to false doctrine

I'd wager you patronize your public library and that there are hundreds of volumes there that you would call false doctrine. Please do not attempt to debate theology here until you have cleaned up your local library.

BTW: I am also100% against false doctrine. Knowing the Bible will help me recognize the falsie from the true.. Logos helps me study the Bible.

Abi Gail

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265609#Comment_265609

"Submit to governing authorities"

The Roman church is an authority? Even if it were, You didn't quote the whole passage. Look at verse 7. (Ro 13:7)

"Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. "

We are not required to pay homage to those who are undeserving. For us to know who is deserving, We only have to inspect their fruit.

Jonathan Pitts

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265620#Comment_265620

You might consider using something like Google Reader to look at the RSS feeds for the forum. Using that I get notification (in Google Reader, not by email) of all new threads on the forums and I can subscribe the receive emails of the threads that I would like to follow up on.

Using this approach I seem to have completely missed out on the threads that seem to have caused trouble recently. (Perhaps someone could tell me where they are so I can see what all the fuss is about!)

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265620#Comment_265620

"Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. "

Romans 13:7

Read your own post. It matters not who is right, it matters who has the right. (That would be Bob Pritchett in this place.)

George Somsel

I love Logos software, but I am leaving these forums. I am going to take a 30 day timeout and then I may check back and see if the chaos and anarchy still rules. So close to 2000 posts too...

Remember that for evil to succeed it is only necessary that good men do nothing. Please reconsider.

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265600#Comment_265600

Disgraceful, turning a thread in which a much valued member of the forum announces a sabbatical because of theological debates into a place for such debates.

Dominick, your contribution will be greatly missed. Thanks for taking the time over the last 24 hours to make more suggestions for resources.

BTW. I'm astounded by the size of your library. Mine is huge but now I'm feeling a bit insufficient

God Bless,

Damian

Bill Moore

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265632#Comment_265632

George makes a valid point, Dominick. Don't let trolls run you off. I suspect the forum is less without your input.

I missed the thread(s) in question, or perhaps I ignored them. When I see a thread that looks like a train wreck in the making, I avoid it. Life's too short.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265635#Comment_265635

I missed the thread(s) in question, or perhaps I ignored them

This may be the key to handling trolls.

IGNORE THEM ENTIRELY !

If I understand how this works, the offending post will be an orphan post if no one replies. When there are no replies a post drops off the map fairly quickly. I realize it is a difficult thing to refrain from replying when some jerk makes an outrageous and uncharitable statement since I have the same immediate desire to quash the bug, but let us refrain. NOT A WORD IN REPLY. If the troll desires to keep his post active, he will then find it necessary to reply to his own post making it a conversation with himself.

David Knoll

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265639#Comment_265639

IGNORE THEM ENTIRELY !

[Y]

Abi Gail

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265629#Comment_265629

It matters not who is right, it matters who has the right.

Really? You really believe that?

"But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak." (1 Co 8:9)

"If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? 12 If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more? Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ." (1 Co 9:11–12).

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265641#Comment_265641

I have to admit the threads that have bothered others have not bothered me, when I seen where they were going, I stopped reading them and let my thought go towards my life in Christ.

We live in the world, but by faith it does not have to control us.

Yes, there is a lot of sin in the body of Christ, and I am part of that sinful problem, and it leads back to not walking by faith and resting in Christ.

The problem is not out there, it is within us, and no matter where we go, we will run into sin and sins. Our only hope is to walk by faith in Christ.

Your brother in Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265632#Comment_265632

for evil to succeed it is only necessary that good men do nothing.

Very true.

We have had several good
people leave the forum because the guidelines for the forum were "not
enforced."

NOTE: the first thread was eventually deleted, and the second thread was stared on Sat.. Therefore, these items do need to be included when evaluating Logos' response to these threads.

Abi Gail

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265651#Comment_265651

We have had several good
people leave the forum because the guidelines for the forum were "not
enforced."

This individual chose to leave after the guidelines were enforced, and gave a clear reason for the problem, and states that enforcement by Logos is NOT the answer.

Today's thread started by a likely forum troll and our community's inability to ignore it proves that no enforcement policy won't work.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265655#Comment_265655

Today's thread started by a likely forum
troll and our community's inability to ignore it proves that "no
enforcement" policy won't work.

I read it differently - as shown by my addition of quote marks and bold.I would assume that the decisions to stay or go are rather complex. But I think < 0.008% have driven away several valuable contributors to our community and an unknown number others - readers or contributors. My sympathy is not only with those who have left the forums, but also with those who are less comfortable in the forums and also with Logos staff who have the burden of handling the mess. Prayers all around.

BillS

Hi Dominick,

Blessings, joy, peace, & re-creation to you... I'll miss your voice. (Don't know if I'm a regular, tho' [;)])

Abi Gail

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265658#Comment_265658

I read it differently

I can see that a poorly structured sentence can give rise to differences in interpretation. You don't question the previous phrase "our community's inability to ignore it " ...Do You? To me,That seems to support my interpretation. If the thread died of loneliness...no enforcement would be needed.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265662#Comment_265662

You don't question the previous phrase "our community's inability to ignore it " ...Do You?

No, I agree with you. Shall we ask to get a discourse analysis of the sentence? That brings the topic back to Logos, right?[;)]

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265664#Comment_265664

Shall we ask to get a discourse analysis of the sentence?

Where's Terry Cook when you need him most? [:D]

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265720#Comment_265720

Where's Terry Cook when you need him most?

Terry Cook, the NASCAR driver?

Allen Browne

...I am going to take a 30 day timeout...

Dominick, when you do check back next month, I hope you realise that your posts have helped many people here. I'm one of them. Your contributions are worthwhile.

God bless

Gerard Stevens

Wow! Sounds cultish in these forums. I have notice the same people seem to pots thousands of times and when someone questions something they all go into attack mode and start slandering that person and that using Scriptures. Sounds really spiritual guys.

Dominick grow some thick skin. Ignore comments that you don't like. why did you even comment if you did not like it? Are you the Forum Police LOL!

They should make a rule that you are not allowed to slander others who view their opinions either.

All of you need to get a life, but I guess for most this forum is your life

Pathetic!

Gerard Stevens

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265745#Comment_265745

Hi My name is Gerard. Most of you know me by many other names.
A little bit about myself.
I honestly do not know what Jesus taught. You see, I am not very smart.
I have no reading comprehension whatsoever which efffects my abilllity to read and properly interpret the bible. All I know is that the bible says and I am going to do it. If you think I am wrong, well so beit. I know that I am the only one who is right.
My mission is to humilate you and force you into submission of JESUS even though I have never seen you. I know that my ways of doin things are right. i am sure that I have saved thousands of people.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265747#Comment_265747

Hi My name is Gerard. Most of you know me by many other names.
A little bit about myself.
I honestly do not know what Jesus taught. You see, I am not very smart.
I have no reading comprehension whatsoever which efffects my abilllity to read and properly interpret the bible. All I know is that the bible says and I am going to do it. If you think I am wrong, well so beit. I know that I am the only one who is right.
My mission is to humilate you and force you into submission of JESUS even though I have never seen you. I know that my ways of doin things are right. i am sure that I have saved thousands of people.

Houston, we have a problem. How many jerks are there here?

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265745#Comment_265745

To be truthful I don't have a dog in this hunt but it is a curious thing to read about all of this Christian love on a web site dedicated to endlessly selling me religious products. In what world is there peace when religion or religious matters are brought up to open ended discussion. This is the nature of religious conflict dialogue in the American context since the time of our religious ancestors who sought to find peace by persecuting Quakers for their wrong ideas. So what is the point? In the real world Logos is not going to be able to be both open minded (i.e. ecumenical) and narrow (i.e. conservative, inerrant theological works) in its product selection in practical terms in order to develop it's market imo. While all of this can go away by simply deleting this forum that doesn't take away the basic business problem faced by Logos...do you want to grow the market or do you want to develop customer loyalty by branding you products through a narrowing of the theological perspective. This is the nature of the conflict between theological purity and profit in my view...at what point does the "truth" you know get thrown out for a more secure economic future?

Gerard Stevens

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265751#Comment_265751

Not sure who hacked my name. LOL! Nice job but you just proved my point. When someone posts something that might not be agreed upon those who post thousands of times on Logos Forums slander, insult, and say un-Christian like things. They resort to childlike sarcasm and show they are immature. They do not dare deal with the question or try to give a well thought out response, but act like infants in their responses.

Thanks for proving me right.

I did not write this so I can only assume that someone who works at Logos did because how could they hack my account?

Hi My name is Gerard. Most of you know me by many other names.
A little bit about myself.
I honestly do not know what Jesus taught. You see, I am not very smart.
I have no reading comprehension whatsoever which efffects my abilllity to read and properly interpret the bible. All I know is that the bible says and I am going to do it. If you think I am wrong, well so beit. I know that I am the only one who is right.
My mission is to humilate you and force you into submission of JESUS even though I have never seen you. I know that my ways of doin things are right. i am sure that I have saved thousands of people.

Houston, we have a problem. How many jerks are there here?

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265752#Comment_265752

Much of the posting this week (including some I have done) is at best unhelpful. At worst sinful.

Please, stop it. Even posting "Stop It!" is going to invite more from trouble makers and hate-mongers.

Some will keep posting without any provocation. (That is the type who think, "better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." - Dante)

"Stop It!"

Chris Thompson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265757#Comment_265757

Please, stop it. Even posting "Stop It!" is going to invite more from trouble makers and hate-mongers.

"Stop It!"

Amazing....Simply Amazing.

Mathew Haferkamp

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265639#Comment_265639

Good answer George, I myself was in the same frame of mind last christmas. I read a cartoon some time ago, it was a picture of someone wrestling a pig in the mud. And the caption read "arguing with a truck driver is like wrestling a pig in the mud, you soon figure out he is enjoying it". By the way I am a truckdriver.

Ralph Mauch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265728#Comment_265728

Dominick, when you do check back next month, I hope you realise that your posts have helped many people here. I'm one of them. Your contributions are worthwhile

Ditto, and to all the newer folks, this forum is truly a helpful place to grow into using your software, and devolping a deeper level of study of Scripture. I've stopped reading all the posts, and mostly read those that could help me. I know, I know, so why read this one? Because at first it started as a good post, to show one's frustration, and then proceeded to go down hill, except for a few like this one.

Dominick, I've taken a few timeouts myself, not just from here, and they have all been worth it. The Lord bless your time away, but don't stay away too long.

Silent Sam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265757#Comment_265757

Much of the posting this week (including some I have done) is at best unhelpful. At worst sinful.

[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]

Stephen Thorp

I've just logged on to the forums having had a few days away, and I can only say that I am sad and sorry to see that some members have decided to use the forums in such an unkind, ungracious and uncharitable way. We all have a concern for 'right doctrine' but it's up to each individual to determine what it is and walk in the light of it. These forums are not the place to argue 'the toss' or to shout at our neighbour! It is in my experience often those who shout loudest who are the least secure, so let's moderate our behaviour and act like the mature adults we are supposed to be, and let these forums do what they are intended to do - and help each other make the most of what is unquestionably the best piece of Bible Software going.

MJD

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265752#Comment_265752

To be truthful I don't have a dog in this hunt but it is a curious thing to read about all of this Christian love on a web site dedicated to endlessly selling me religious products. In what world is there peace when religion or religious matters are brought up to open ended discussion. This is the nature of religious conflict dialogue in the American context since the time of our religious ancestors who sought to find peace by persecuting Quakers for their wrong ideas. So what is the point? In the real world Logos is not going to be able to be both open minded (i.e. ecumenical) and narrow (i.e. conservative, inerrant theological works) in its product selection in practical terms in order to develop it's market imo. While all of this can go away by simply deleting this forum that doesn't take away the basic business problem faced by Logos...do you want to grow the market or do you want to develop customer loyalty by branding you products through a narrowing of the theological perspective. This is the nature of the conflict between theological purity and profit in my view...at what point does the "truth" you know get thrown out for a more secure economic future?

This is a very thought provoking... Is it safe to say Logos Bible Software started with a reformed perspective to serve the reformed community?

If so, I can understand how some would be concerned if Logos is changing it's direction and now marketing their product to others whom have a different perspective.

Let us not forget Martin Luther and how his perspective changed the church.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265828#Comment_265828

Let us not forget Martin Luther and how his perspective changed the church.

[st] LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!! [st]

MJD

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265833#Comment_265833

Let us not forget Martin Luther and how his perspective changed the church.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!

I don't want to guess what you are trying to convey. Please express yourself in words so I don't have to try and figure out your code.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265828#Comment_265828

To be truthful I don't have a dog in this hunt but it is a curious thing to read about all of this Christian love on a web site dedicated to endlessly selling me religious products. In what world is there peace when religion or religious matters are brought up to open ended discussion. This is the nature of religious conflict dialogue in the American context since the time of our religious ancestors who sought to find peace by persecuting Quakers for their wrong ideas. So what is the point? In the real world Logos is not going to be able to be both open minded (i.e. ecumenical) and narrow (i.e. conservative, inerrant theological works) in its product selection in practical terms in order to develop it's market imo. While all of this can go away by simply deleting this forum that doesn't take away the basic business problem faced by Logos...do you want to grow the market or do you want to develop customer loyalty by branding you products through a narrowing of the theological perspective. This is the nature of the conflict between theological purity and profit in my view...at what point does the "truth" you know get thrown out for a more secure economic future?

This is a very thought provoking... Is it safe to say Logos Bible Software started with a reformed perspective to serve the reformed community?

If so, I can understand how some would be concerned if Logos is changing it's direction and now marketing their product to others whom have a different perspective.

Let us not forget Martin Luther and how his perspective changed the church.

Well in a nutshell MJD I would agree. Folks take their religion real seriously (if its yours it must be the truth so to speak) and anything that changes that becomes a moral/truth issue. This kind of stuff could really crack Logos if they are not careful imo...still waiting for Tillich...although a 1901 set of school commentaries maybe the same...egads.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265835#Comment_265835

Let us not forget Martin Luther and how his perspective changed the church.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!

I don't want to guess what you are trying to convey. Please express yourself in words so I don't have to try and figure out your code.

Actually, given the forum rules, I think code is best. [A]