Forum Guidelines: No Theology Debates

As a Pentecostal with a cousin who is a Catholic Priest, a son-in-law who is a Lutheran pastor, a sister-in-law who is a devoted Catholic, and a now deceased uncle who was a Free-Methodist pastor, I've found that we can agree on far more than we disagree on.  And I've been enriched by peaceful discussions, over the Word, about the areas we disagree on.

Hi John,

I was expecting your sentence to end something like:

"... and a now deceased uncle who was a Free-Methodist pastor, I found that letting our theological discussions get out of hand did not end well..."

Regards,

Clinton

Please stop the theology wars in Logos forums.

Bob, may I suggest that to this we add: Stop debates about Bible versions.

The vitriol can be similar and the value of the debates equally dubious.

Agreed! [Y]

Debates are different than discussions.

Proselytizing and judging should be checked at the door.

edit: If all Bible versions were the same, we would only have one. With dozens to choose from, they can't all be equal. With 2.1 billion potential Bible readers, we will not settle on which is "best."   No debates.

I appreatiate Bob's intervention but I wish the clarifications had been… clearer.

Bob emphasized theological wars and heated debates. However, the specifics concerning what people should not do appear to preclude any and all theological discussions: “Stop posting about errors in other people's doctrine. Please stop posting your own doctrine. Please stop responding to correct misperceptions or misunderstandings or to counter attacks”. I do not see any theological exchange that would not qualify.

I understand why a company would want to limit theological debates/discussions. When sales and customer satisfaction are concerned, there is little upside and a lot of downside when discussing religion. Offended or marginalized customers are less likely to stay.

However, I found some of the theological rationale (all that should matters is that people are studying God’s Word) to be less convincing and even counterproductive (the reason why individuals engage others theologically in venues such as this one is rarely because the other person does not study the Bible but mainly because of the belief that said person is doing it the wrong way). The solution is not to present theological differences as trivial (some, not all, have eternal consequences) and related discussions as a waste of time (promoting sound doctrine is encouraged by the Bible itself) but to emphasize the fact that by company policy, this website is not the place for such exchanges (plain and simple). Such a rule does not need a somewhat questionable theological rationale and stands on its own.

As a user of this website, I respect Logos’ rules and regulations and as such, I do not participate in activities that are forbidden by the company (even though I like constructive theological discussions as much as the next man). However, even if discussions were allowed, I would still stay out of many of them because of the lack of edification. It is good that Bob decided to step in and calm things down. 

Alain

Thank you, Bob, it needed saying.  I'm an Anglican, albeit a reluctant one.  I worship with the Catholics.  Used to worship with the Evangelical church as well, till they cold-shouldered me for worshipping with the Catholics. Present pastor and family are good friends of mine and very supportive.  I'm just back from a visit to them.  He says "theological problems" are usually an excuse for a personality clash...   I live in a Muslim village, and we do Bible study according approximately to the evangelical model because that's what makes sense to the participants.  We don't use the term Christian, but call ourselves Believers in Jesus.  I use Logos daily for Bible study and Vyrso even more for reading.  Some of my Bible study is done from an old fashioned paper Bible, but I then turn to Logos for commentaries.  

I normally enjoy the forums, but have tended not to open the threads that appear to have a theological/aggressive bias.

Well said.

Can we sticky this post and lock it down so its always visible?

To be clear… I respect authority figures.  Within the church I submit to the elders, outside the church I submit to all governing authorities, just as the bible commands me to.  I seek unity around the authority of the bible, hence the reason that I have spent so much money on your software, and why I study any chance I get.  Lastly, I have never “split” a church, or caused dissention in a church.

Mark, 

If everyone were like you and respected authority and sought to live peaceably with all men, there would be no dissension. There are around 750,000 Logos users and the overwhelming majority of them are nice people who respect others. Bob's "sweeping statement" is just that, sweeping. He is attempting to clean up a mess. It is a bit silly for a company CEO to have to have to smooth things over because "Christian adults" can not behave.

Obviously Bob's statement is not referring to you or 749,950 of the other Logos users. These forums are for you & them. Law enforcement is only necessary against lawbreakers. If you can be a peacemaker behind the scenes, God bless your efforts.

I think you need to allow some of your VIP's authority to kill a thread

While I sympathize with this sentiment, I don't think it is the answer.  Ultimately, if this policy is implemented, you have the potential of producing a lot of hurt feelings.  "Why did you kill my thread but not this one?"  "That MVP is biased against [name a theological position here] but sympathetic towards [name a theological position here]."   "Unfair."  "Capricious."

I think a better solution would be to establish a Cage Match forum which could be entered voluntarily or, posts/threads could be redirected there by the MVPs.  Perhaps, in extreme situations, it might even be used to banish a recalcitrant for a timeout with no access to the main forums ... sort of like a penalty box.  Either way, the Cage Match forum would be a no holds barred, enter at your own risk, place where the more philosophically pugnacious, those who like theological jousting, and those who fantasize themselves as Valiant for Truth can go and have at it.  Meanwhile the rest of the Logos Forums can be dedicated to the software and the books as the owner/provider of forum has stated many times over.

Just my two cents ...

With that said, I think you need to allow some of your VIP's authority to kill a thread when it gets out of hand.

I think a better solution would be to establish a Cage Match forum which could be entered voluntarily or, posts/threads could be redirected there by the MVPs.

You assume that an unpaid hall monitor is more effective than a paid hall monitor?

Since the linked posts have been deleted, It would seem that you have changed your policy ... AGAIN?

Chris, perhaps Bob is interested in continuing the discussion. If not Bob is available via email at Bob@logos.com (try getting Bill Gates to respond to email). Maybe that is the way to get an answer directly from him.

I will say that I can't help but feel your response is an attempt at creating yet another discussion that has nothing to do with Logos Bible software or using Logos for Bible study. You may not mean it that way but that's how I perceive it. Please don't expect me to argue this point. I'm not interested in arguing, just in trying to help you gain another user's perspective.

There is no "policy," there's just how we do things. Not deleting is the general rule, but even that hasn't been absolute. We do delete robot spam, for example.

We're generally trying the "no delete" style, but I thought the Kilroy creation and posts were just an intentional provocation, and weren't from a real user. (No address, no phone, no purchase history.) I don't see deleting a "not real user" as contrary to my free speech policy.

I did delete the one thread that was inflaming all this this week simply because I was tired of its continued existence. That was an arbitrary personal indulgence, not a policy. :-)

I don't want to sound out of control, but I was just wondering where's the Lutheran, or Greek Orthodox, or Pentecostal project manager?

Perhaps if there was a large market for those groups,  I'm sure Logos would hire product managers.

Nothing personal against Andrew, but to already hear of the 'living tradition'  means that he will have to introduce works that argue against sola scriptura which will of necessity set the authority of the Roman church above the Word of God.

You are not forced to purchase those resources, what is your point?  As a convert to the Catholic Church, I certainly do not get upset if I hear Protestant theology or views... why should you get upset hearing "Roman" viewpoints?  If you are convinced, then grow thicker skin.

- Michael

he will have to introduce works that argue against sola scriptura which will of necessity set the authority of the Roman church above the Word of God.

- From a Protestant perspective, having resources in Logos that are more authoritative in the Roman Catholic tradition will allow you to develop a stronger argument to persuade others of their error.

-  From a Protestant perspective, having resources in Logos that are more authoritative in the Roman Catholic tradition will bring in more Roman Catholic users who will then also get exposed to Protestant resources that could persuade them to embrace Sola Scriptura.

- From a Catholic perspective, having resources in Logos that are more authoritative in the Catholic tradition will simply make them happy to use Logos.

Logos, like any good Library, is neutral to "why" people read certain content.  If a user wants to read a book to research and writing... you win.  If a user wants to read a book to debunk bad theology... you win.  If a user wants to read a book to reinforce their theology.. you win.

In the end, more Catholic resources is a Win Win Win situation for everybody of every tradition who cares about the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  

As a former Roman Catholic and convinced Protestant, but someone who is still interested in Roman Catholic theology, I am disappointed with the decision by Logos to introduce this emphasis in their product line. Nothing personal against Andrew, but to already hear of the 'living tradition'  means that he will have to introduce works that argue against sola scriptura which will of necessity set the authority of the Roman church above the Word of God. But of course in Rome's view, their tradition IS the Word of God. Let's hope Logos will have the spiritual fortitude to produce works that expose the errors of Rome and save the unknowing from the errors of a system that can refer to a man as 'Holy Father'.

I don't want to sound out of control, but I was just wondering where's the Lutheran, or Greek Orthodox, or Pentecostal project manager?

This website and company is BOB's puppy, his ball, his bundle of joy. HE calls the shots, period. I don't have to like it...though sometimes I do (which is why he has so much of my money). [:|]

I hear your "concern", Richard. But hard as it may be to take and swallow, you're overstepping, IMO. God said, "I set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore, choose life." (Deut. 30:19) This choice is ultimately a personal one, and no one (other than a parent of a child) has a right to hinder that process of making a choice, even if the wrong choice is made. YHWH could have killed off Satan before creating Adam and Eve and thus eliminate any worry about coming into contact with a "contaminating influence", but that would have avoided the whole PURPOSE, which was for people to CHOOSE which "spiritual style" they desire...blessing and life or cursing and death. You are worried and concerned people will be swayed by material you think will lead to cursing and death. Understandable. But consider this--what if Catholics AND Protestants (and Lutherans, Orthodox, Pentecostals, to include those you mentioned) are ALL wrong??? Considering what Rev. 12:9 says about Satan deceiving the whole world, it's something worthy of consideration...and it may not be as preposterous as you first think. Unless the apostle was wrong...

Point being, stop worrying about other people's decisions and contact with error. This world is DESIGNED by YHWH to give every person precisely that OPPORTUNITY...to encounter error and conclude that it is a bad deal altogether...and determine that God has the better offer. You do what you can to influence them in the way that you think is best--if it really is best. And with all this in mind, let Bob have his way. This is his ball...he makes the rules. He's just giving peole the tools to make their decision...whether good or bad.

Also, while this is directed at Richard, all should give ear. NO MORE THEOLOGICAL DEBATES! (Disclaimer: Though the above may appear to be a theologically-tinged comment, it is rather intended as a purely logical defense of the proprietor's method of operation. Any appearance of theological seemingness is merely a by-product of attempting to convey the suitability of that M.O. using the most appropriate tools at hand.) [:$]

Logos Bible Software is here to serve everyone who studies the Bible. That is intentionally "big tent" and we intentionally do not have a statement of faith or a doctrinal position.

The forums are here to support and discuss Logos Bible Software. There are plenty of forums for gladitorial theological combat; please take those discussions there.

 

Peace to you, Bob!

                       Thank you for your post!              Indeed!                               The Forums have been a real blessing to me. 

You and Logos Bible Software will be in my prayers!

                                                      Remember!                            Always Joy in the Lord!

                                          *smile*

Anyone know of any good commentaries on this section of Galatians?

Galatians 5:13-15

13　You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. ¹⁴For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."　^k15If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

Wouldn't it be great if all the people who waste their time and energy on petty things put that time and energy into Bible study?

With this comment, you are suggesting that the truth of the gospel is a petty thing? While there are some who attend Roman Catholic churches who are true Christians, Roman Catholic Theology itself is not consistent with the Biblical gospel as proclaimed by the apostles. Consider the stern warning Paul gave to false teachers in Galatians 1:6-9.

My friend, you think Catholic theology isn't consistent with the gospel, but I would tell you that "evangelical" theology also isn't compatible with the gospel.  The gospel is not theology and doesn't depend on theology.  The gospel regards a trust in the love of God revealed in Jesus Christ and not in thinking the right thoughts.  When Christianity was still in the crib there was a movement known as gnosticism which essentially contended that you need to get your thoughts straight regarding reality.  If you conceived of reality properly, then you were home free.  That is not Christianity; that is not the gospel.

Amen

protestants don't do a good job getting along on a single doctrinal statement. That's why the Catholic church is basically one large church, and the average protestant church splits after reaching 100-200 people. I know the attacks are painful and unkind, but please understand that you're "surrounded" by people who traditionally are more likely to split a church than seek unity. In the protestant mindset there isn't a single authority figure who will be respected, let alone able to quell debate and dissension.

Bob,

While I support your policy not to debate theological issues and am saddened that some users have offended Roman Church users.  I am also offended by the closing words of your last paragraph.  As a Reformational Christian I in no way believe that I have split away from the true church.  The reformation was about preserving the one Holy Apostolic Church, not splitting it up.

As for divisions there have always been divisions in the church.  You would do well to read some of your excellent resources on church history.  The Roman church as aways had theological divisions and still does.  Most Protestants get along with other Protestants better than most monastic orders did in the middle ages.  Your characterization of Protestants was very unfair.

Sincerely,

Keith Larson 

It is correct that Logos should be a tool for all users no matter what their theological background.  Cluttering up the forum with non-software related discussions detracts from users easily finding information on how to use the software.

That being said, Bob could have stopped at telling people that this is not the place for theological discussions... for the above reason... period.  He didn't have to throw in his own theological jab at protestants.

Your characterization of Protestants was very unfair.

See, this is why I hate these arguments... I'm in over my head. :-)

I've heard a few people (here, and on blogs) saying I've "thrown protestants under the bus" or gone "anti-protestant." That certainly wasn't my intention at all, and I apologize if I was somehow unfair to protestants, among whom I number myself.

This is a case of writing too quickly and posting without enough thought, in the heat of the moment. I wasn't trying to make any bold statements about Catholics and protestants; I actually thought I was making a mildly clever point in response to calls for someone to "step in and settle things," by pointing out that protestant churches don't have the hierarchy of the Catholic church. When protestants disagree on doctrine, they rarely kick the issue upstairs for an authoritative answer from the church hierarchy; they just split the church. I was trying to make the point that it was harder to get people so inclined to ever "settle down and get along" when they believe they are arguing a theologically important point. I thought that the request for someone to "set the rules" reflected a perspective that might be informed by experience in a more hierarchial church structure.

This was obviously too subtle a point and too gross a simplification, and probably too informed by my own experience in small non-denominational churches, all too many of which seem so split over trivial stuff.

Even my use of split wasn't a reference to departing "away from the true church." I meant splitting as in Tom, Mary, and their small group are leaving to start a new church down the street where we will use harmonicas during worship....

I apologize for the confusion, and for my flippancy. I plead jet-lag (last week) and too many simultaneous fires.

-- Bob

Well Bob, when well we get a rep from Jehovah’s Witnesses and New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures?

...Mike

Are you suggesting that Logos might want to create such a position and are you suggesting it -- or is this simply a provocative statement?

Well Bob, when well we get a rep from Jehovah’s Witnesses and New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures?

I'm not Bob so I don't have an answer. But I would buy the New World Translation without any help from a rep. And I'm not a Jehovah's Witness.

My college roommate did evangelism in Salt Lake City and found it helpful to know what the various Mormon texts said.

I have a Pre-Pub order in for The Sacred Books of the East (50 vols.) to better understand people who practice those religions.

I rarely read anything except technical posts on the forum anymore for the same reason that a straight forward request (decree?) from the president of Logos is still generating hype 8 pages later. But I must admit that I am sure glad I opened this one, just wish I had some popcorn as I sat down to watch the show.

Carry on. [8-|]

I can't be bothered to read through this whole thread so this may already be addressed but I just want to say that Logos is doing the right thing. I don't want some narrow minded person dictating to me what I can buy and read. What if I am studying Catholic doctrine and want to get some authoritative resources on the subject? What I buy and read is my choice. Keep up the good work logos.

[Y]

Protestants:  Our customer base is still 95% protestant, and we are targeting a 5% Catholic group.  You know that there are some Catholics passionate about the truth of scripture.  In past history they were so passionate they burned people at the stake, who did not bow to the Pope and authority of the Roman Catholic Church.  They stole land, impronsoned and tortured countless people for their zeal for God.  Some of these Catholics are out-of-control people and are not good with getting along with others who do not worship the Pope  That's why the Catholic church is basically one large church that claims all protestants are outside of Orthodox Christianity.  While there are some  protestant church splits due to doctrinal issues that need to be addressed, the Catholic Church has unified around false doctrines and will defend those false doctrines vehemntly.  Protestants, I know the attacks historically have been painful and unkind coming from the Roman Cathlolic Church,  but please understand that you're "surrounded" by people who traditionally are more likely to burn you at the stake, issue a Papal Bull, or call down an anathama on those who do not bow to Roman Catholocism. In the Catholic mindset there is a single authority figure alone who is to be respected as the Mediator between God and man, the Pope. 

I wonder how the forum would have went if Bob attacked the catholics as he did the protestants.   And he is the president of Logos??????????