Fleecing the sheep ....

I'm a brand new Logos user and find that I have to express my BIG disappointment in the price of adding additional resources to my library ... I should have done more due diligence. The first work that I wanted to add was Spurgeon's "Lectures to My Students" ... hardcover price at Amazon: $11.54 ... price to add to Logos: $59.95 ... I've looked at other works that I dearly would like to add but just cannot and will not pay the exorbitant costs ...

I thought I had found a treasure ... but instead found a company that seems to prefer to line its own pockets versus doing what it can to make works affordable to help promote the gospel we all love.

Heavy sigh ...

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Richard Wardman

Hi Brad. Welcome to the forums. So sorry to hear that you're disappointed with Logos. There will occasionally be a big different between Logos' prices and other sellers'. I do think that the accusation that Logos are only in it for money is somewhat unfair. The impression I get is that Logos are genuinely passionate about quality Bible study, and I also think that Logos 4 reflects that passion.

From what I understand, getting a resource ready to be used in Logos 4 is a considerable task (cross-references, tags, formatting etc.) and that obviously eats us resources. The result, however, is that for those of us with expanding libraries, the resources we have are powerfully linked and indexed, making Bible study faster, more enjoyable, and in my experience, more fruitful.

I'd encourage you to stick at it and use Logos 4 for a while. Have you seen http://www.logos4training.com/? These are a collection of unofficial, but high quality, training videos that really gets you using Logos 4. Also, you can make use of the extensive info on http://wiki.logos.com/. Plus, if you have any questions that you can't find answers for, there's also this forum.

I really hope you come to love Logos 4 and find it to be a massive blessing to you and those you serve.

DMB

Brad ... you're right on the higher than normal 'street' price of Logos resources. Experienced users have learned to use the pre-pub and community pricing programs or buy collections. However if you want a specific resource, especially if it's older, you're likely to loose a little of your fleece in the process. I suspect you might not have done all of your homework, since you saw the Lord's crucifix on the logo (strictly a guess).

But back to your thread heading. Sheep ARE for fleecing. Here in northern Arizona, they're for mutten too (yummy!!). And every business needs some 'sheep'.

Tom Reynolds

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/273389#Comment_273389

Wanting individual books like Spurgeon's "Lectures to My Students" is a problem with Logos with regards to price. You will need to wait until Logos offers a bundle that includes that volume and then it will be yours for as little as a $ or $$ however you will have to buy a whole lot of other books that you may not want. Overall, I have found that Logos is a good deal but patience is required if you miss out on a book's initial prepub offering and release. Be sure to check out http://www.logos.com/products/search?Status=Community+Pricing for the best potential deals on all things old.

George Somsel

You really did find a treasure. Can you imagine having several thousand books and not having to dedicate a fairly large room with many bookshelves to maintain access to them? Just sit down at your computer, and there they are. In addition to what Denise [DMB] has said regarding watching the prepub page and community pricing, be sure to contact a sales representative for other items. Sometimes they can't do much for you on a particular item, but usually they can give you a good deal so don't just order and download from the website unless it's the middle of the night and you absolutely must have the resource immediately.

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/273388#Comment_273388

I tend agree on the prices, Brad: much of the public domain content in Logos seems overpriced.

However, as Richard explained above, there is an expense in creating those resources in Logos, and it is often at a higher cost than modern books since the text has to be transcribed from printed originals. And it is certainly more expensive than the paper editions, which are usually photocopied facsimiles of older editions.

Facsimile editions are cheap to print because they require no editorial work, no proofreading, no typesetting, etc, so the manpower cost is low.
On the other hand, the manpower cost of a Logos edition is high--both in production (transcribing, proofreading, text-layout, tagging, testing) and post-production support (updating typos, updating links, providing phone support, maintaining network infrastructure, updating the software).

So it's not hard for me to understand that the Logos edition would be more expensive, especially when you consider all the post-production/post-sale work Logos continues to provide to their users. Paper books don't require any after-sale support and none is provided.

Having said all of that, I do find that the regular sale price set by Logos often seems too high for public domain resources (and I have no idea how they set those prices), but Logos provides a myriad of sales and specials throughout the year that I use to purchase resources at prices that are reasonable. Plus, Logos offers even cheaper prices in their Community Pricing and Pre-Pub ordering programs.

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/273409#Comment_273409

Logos offers even cheaper prices in their Community Pricing and Pre-Pub ordering programs.

Logos is selling this product The New Testament for English Readers for $59.95. Because I caught in while in community pricing, I will pay $12.00.

Claybon Collins Jr

Hi Brad,

Welcome to the forum. I'm sure you have received a lot of replies about you post. Just a quick note. The Logos price includes 4 vols. while Amazon only includes the one.

Blessings,

Claybon

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/273419#Comment_273419

Just a quick note. The Logos price includes 4 vols. while Amazon only includes the one.

You're right on! Logos sells the single Vol I resource http://www.logos.com/product/6754/lectures-to-my-students-vol-1 for 19.95 (bare any discounts that may be available or negotiable) but it seems Brad somehow missed that.

Still, twenty dollars are more than twelve, but on the other hand one can not only read it in a proper size and font (as opposed to a paper copy from an old book), but also the Logos cross-linking features etc and the possibility to cut and past into one's own texts are there.

Mick

Brad Gault

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/273428#Comment_273428

Actually the Amazon copy does contain all 4 volumes because I purchased it and have it in my hand ...

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

I'm a brand new Logos user

Welcome [:D]

Wiki page => Getting Started with Logos has links to excellent unofficial training videos plus tips and wiki links.

Wiki also has => Adding New Resources to Logos 4

Note: Logos 3 program was named Libronix, which can be used for searching old CD's in a variety of places whose resource licenses are usable in Logos 4. Another search term is eBible (since Nelson used Libronix for their eBible bundles). Thankful some Logos sales are less $ than old Libronix 3 CD's; looking forward to December, which tends to have many sale items and wondering about follow-up => Christmas 2010 Master Collection (2,010 vols.) A GREAT Bargain!

Thankful for free Logos resources => http://www.logos.com/products/search?start=&sort=pricelo&pageSize=15

Looking forward to an awesome free collection (over 3,000 volumes) => A Clue?

Keep Smiling [:)]

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/273468#Comment_273468

Brad, I have been buying Logos books for years, and I agree with you, and buying a single title book that is Public domain is a great example. The price is plain silly.

For those that mention buying books on pre-pub or community pricing being a great deal, I want to point out those good buys can never apply to this book, and you have missed his point.

There are tons of Community pricing books that I would love to have gotten at those good buy prices, but, I didn't even know about Community pricing at that time or even Logos and there is no going back. There are other books I would love to have, but they were in such huge bundles it was impossible for me to buy the big bundles for only one or two books. So I have missed out and those books are now expensive!

However, Logos is the best study system on the market and I want to spend my time in useful learning rather than looking for stuff!!! So I am very thankful to have it and use it everyday!

I am working on a DTh degree and Logos is worth it for me, actually it is worth it to me any way but because of the high prices in public domain, I also use another great tool, for use with public domain books, and this may help you. Do a wordsearch for a program called TheWord, it has some limitations, with one of them being a lack of copyrighted material. But in your case on the plus side it has tons of free public domain books, I have around 2100 in mine!

This can allow you to use pubulic domain books free and spend your hard earned money on the Logos copyrighted books, which in most cases is their best values anyway!

With theWord you can still put your books in collections, tag your books, and search them one at a time or in collections. It also allows you to use layouts to have easy access to just what you want. And if you find a free public domain book that is not in TheWord, with a little time and effort you can make your own module for that book and give it to others freely.

Another plus about this free resource is that it runs on almost any computer and you can also put it on a thumb drive and take it anywhere. It was made to be used by missionaries in very poor countries where gospel books may not be allowed in, and it leaves no tracks on the computer you plug it in to. Of course you can also install it on the hard drive.

I am like you at first I thought Logos would be the only system I would need, but then like you, I discovered, I just can not afford it for everything. So I try to limit the resources I buy to either copyrighted materials or the community pricing-pre-pub offers that I can not find else where for free. I am a happy owner of over 2600 Logos books and very thankful that I have them in Logos!

In Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

Brad Gault

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/273499#Comment_273499

Jim ... many thanks ... I just downloaded "theWord" and it looks promising ... I've used eSword in the past and theWord looks similar but perhaps with many more modules available that are in the public domain ... I've already downloaded the Ante-Nicene Fathers which would have set me back $250 with logos ... would be nice to have it all in one ... but this may be a nice alternative ...

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/273511#Comment_273511

Brad, just so you know there is a world of difference between E-Sword and theWord, for years I taught people how to do bible study on E-Sword, but it is very limited compared to TheWord.

TheWord is also limited compared to Logos, but if you are poor it is a great free resource!!!

Just so you know I have an E-Sword with over 2250 resources in it and I know of one site that has over 2400 resources, but I never use E-Sword and use TheWord everyday, like I do Logos.

TheWord is alot more like Logos when it comes to searching, and creating collections and layouts. If you found theWord make sure you check their site under modules for third party modules, there is more out there than I have, which means over 2100! That is a lot of public domain books! And don't forget it is easy to make your own modules and take your own notes in theWord.

But, I would still be lost with out Logos, and I still believe they are crazy on their public domain prices. TheWord is this elder's, poor man's Logos addon!

I hope you learn to enjoy Logos their prices on copyrighted books is the best that I have found, and nothing beats the program, it is very good in Languages too!

In Christ,

Jim VanSchooonhoven

Bill Anderson

... but instead found a company that seems to prefer to line its own pockets versus doing what it can to make works affordable to help promote the gospel we all love.

Heavy sigh ...

Brad,

I, too, welcome you to the Logos forums. You will find a lot of help here when you have questions about how to use Logos.

Another consideration for obtaining less costly Logos resources is the upcoming Personal Book Builder (PBB) feature that allows users to create their own Logos resources. In the previous version of the software, there were literally thousands of public domain PBB resources that members of the Logos community provided for free. There are Logos users today who continue to use Libronix (the previous version) because they have access to all of these PBBs. We all have been eagerly awaiting the release of PBB for Logos 4 and it is almost here.

Logos is a company that is in business to make a profit. Like you, I find many resources too expensive for my needs -- or wants (mostly the latter). I take advantage of the community pricing, pre-publication and annual sales (Black Friday -- who can forget that sale last year [:)], March Madness and the Christmas library builder sale). All of these will give you a chance to purchase resources at a much lower cost. There are still Logos resources available from third party sellers and I have picked up a number of very good deals from them. And finally I will add that many users have reported that a call into their friendly Logos sales rep can also yield savings.

Garrett Ho

I thought I had found a treasure ... but instead found a company that seems to prefer to line its own pockets versus doing what it can to make works affordable to help promote the gospel we all love.

Perhaps the best way for them to promote the gospel is to stay in business. While I can understand your emotion, you may want to be careful with your words. You may underestimate the labor and cost it takes for Logos to produce a title (even public domain), the value that they add, and their motivations.

Feel free to use other software, or even download the public domain titles for free online in text or pdf. Others have suggested excellent ways to find deals on Logos titles if you choose to stay with the platform, and PBB might be just want you're looking for. If you decide it isn't for you, the staff is very helpful about returns.

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/273528#Comment_273528

TheWord is alot more like Logos when it comes to searching, and creating collections and layouts. If you found theWord make sure you check their site under modules for third party modules, there is more out there than I have, which means over 2100! That is a lot of public domain books! And don't forget it is easy to make your own modules and take your own notes in theWord

Hey Jim,

I am curious as to what you use for long notes given you use more than one Bible software package?? [8-|]

You seem very well versed and experienced with free Bible software. Your posts are very helpful and thought provoking. Thanks!

Shawn Drewett

Brad, in March 1999 I bought my first Logos product, the MacArthur
Bible Study Library. I was much exited about it and enjoyed discovering bible
study with an excellent product. I then
began to purchase more books but almost exclusively from Thomas Nelson
because they were/are less expensive. I
live on a limited budget and my purchases are mainly confined to Community
Pricing and a “certain” Christian online software company. I’ll get some fire
from this statement but if I had known what I know now I would not have chosen
Logos as my primary Bible Software. Because of my limited budget I had to make
a decision years ago to choose ONE bible software to build up. I could have
saved A LOT of money if I had chosen another. Logos is a fantastic bible software but you’d
better have self control or you’ll spend a lot more money than you need to!

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/273587#Comment_273587

One way to do it is buy a bundle and quit spending money on crap you dont need. Although you might get a sales call. In the end this is worth a little bit because it takes up less space then stuff on the shelf...pehaps thats not much of a praise though.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/273591#Comment_273591

Joan, I see notes as one of the major aspects of a good bible study program, and it is one of the least understood sections. What good does it do me to do all this great research and not have a fast easy way to find it and share it with others??? I use TheWord for storing notes, either topical notes or my verse by verse notes. With TheWord your notes are searchable, and you can search them by themselves or add them to collections to search and you can add tags to them, and your verse by verse notes can be made follow along with the bible you are using, just like a commentary!

I admit that about two years ago I thought Logos would improve their notes when Logos 4 came out and I thought I would be using Logos 4 to store and search my notes, but they have failed to see the importance of notes, and I am not waiting for them, I am not mad or upset with Logos about this, I just had my eyes open that they could not meet my needs in this area so I use something else.

At one time I really thought that Logos would be the one bible program for everything and everyone, but I have given up on that.

I love Logos and it caused me to see study in a different light, but they can not be my one system.

For one thing their notes are a let down, for a second thing their Public Domain books are to expensive, I can not afford them, except if I can get them when on community pricing, and the third problem is there are too many computers that don't run it well, and to go along with that many folks don't have internet access to run it and download everything. And the fourth problem I have with Logos is there is still no way to add my own public domain to the system. TheWord does all of these things better and I can afford it.

I have in fact set several overseas seminaries up theWord after trying to set them up with Logos, but they could not afford Logos for several reasons, mainly computers, internet time, and the high cost of the start up programs. Even though TheWord program can not do somethings that Logos does it does most of it and a few things better, but the draw back is copyrighted books, but there is a lot of good free material that can be used in theWord to be very useful.

I am still thankful that I have over the years bought Logos resources and I have over 3500 resources in Libronix that are very helpful to me, I would much rather use Logos, for studying but I am forced to use theWord for notes. I have to mention that Languages are a huge issue in my studies and Logos is way better than all other programs except one when it comes to that and Logos is on equal but different footing with that system. As a note, TheWord does offer a few select copyrighted bibles and books one of them is BDAG, it is very useful in TheWord as it is in Logos.

It's Logos plus TheWord for me, and I am blessed by both!!!

Your brother in Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

Shawn Drewett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/273884#Comment_273884

At one time I really thought that Logos would be the one bible program for everything and everyone, but I have given up on that.

I love Logos and it caused me to see study in a different light, but they can not be my one system.

For one thing their notes are a let down,

for a second thing their Public Domain books are to expensive,

I can not afford them, except if I can get them when on community pricing,

and the third problem is there are too many computers that don't run it well,

and to go along with that many folks don't have internet access to run it and download everything.

Wow, you put the words in my mouth Jim!

Otto S. Carroll

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/273388#Comment_273388

getting a resource ready to be used in Logos 4 is a considerable task (cross-references, tags, formatting etc.) and that obviously eats us resources. The result, however, is that for those of us with expanding libraries, the resources we have are powerfully linked and indexed, making Bible study faster, more enjoyable, and in my experience, more fruitful.

For that reason, it is worth much, much more to me to have a resource in my Logos library than in paper back. I don't consider the cost of paperback versions when contemplating a purchase of a Logos compatible product...

Mike Pettit

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274192#Comment_274192

Logos has a very specific (and quite eccentric) business model in that it channels its business through Pre-pubs, for instance I purchased all 86 volumes of the Spurgeon collection on pre-pub http://www.logos.com/product/4794/charles-spurgeon-collection for $253, which is in my mind a pretty good buy. Even now thye occasionaly have sales where you can buy the collection for a pretty good price. Logos drives you to buy collections, not individual volumes which fits in well with the whole point of Logos being a co-ordianted research and study tool, at its heart it is not aimed at being a big fat version of kindle.

This model means that you (well me, and those who have similiar adictive personalities) keep buying on pre-pub (or ideally community pricing) as you know that you could never afford the full priced product, and you worry overmuch about the potential need to do an in depth study of Spurgeons connections with Bournmouth (insert any arcane topic here) at some indeterminate date in the future.

Where this is a problem is that as time goes by it is harder and harder for new adopters to build up a Logos library as they have never had the opportunity to buy bedrock resources at decent prices, Logos seeks to address this problem by having regular sales of past resources and by grounding the product in excellent base library packages which gives everyone the chance to have a fully functioning library.

The key thing to understand is that Logos was very expensive to build and is very expensive to maintain, it is a premium product that requires constant investment by the company, and hence by its users. It is not for everyone but if you want to build a fully integrated library, are prepared to buy collections rather than only books you want to read in the very short term and are blessed with the cash to spend then it is an incredible resource that is getting better and better.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274200#Comment_274200

I am curious as to why I have to be concerned about the expense and business model of Logos. Seriously they overcharge for free books then endlessly dog me to buy more stuff...and I am suppose to support such pricing because they cant' control business costs? ROFL.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274200#Comment_274200

Where this is a problem is that as time goes by it is harder and harder for new adopters to build up a Logos library as they have never had the opportunity to buy bedrock resources at decent prices, Logos seeks to address this problem by having regular sales of past resources and by grounding the product in excellent base library packages which gives everyone the chance to have a fully functioning library.

The other facet of the Logos business model is that every 2-3 years it seems, they offer upgrades to the base packages. These are phenomenal deals on a cost per book basis, and it's the way to "catch up" if you have not been around to buy, or have just not purchased the resources you desire on PrePub or Community pricing. The upgrades can be expensive ($200 - $500 covers most of them I think), but as I recall the cost per book is 50 cents to a dollar per resource. Over time I paid:

Scholar's Library to Silver upgrade - $370

Silver to Gold - $330

Gold to Portfolio - $770

Prices will vary based on whatever you have purchased on your own in the interim. The web site calculates "your price" based on what's in your library.

I can't see how many books I received with each any more on the orders page, but I did find in the forums two other users who paid for an upgrade to Portfolio (which was the most expensive upgrade I have seen because the number of resources was huge), say they got around $2500 - $2800 of resources based on their analysis of current purchase prices at Logos. So the upgrade for the was a 75% discount, give or take. You can get an idea of the differences in new resources added at each level here.

Base package upgrades are a nice thing to watch out for, and a key part of the Logos model.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274202#Comment_274202

I am curious as to why I have to be concerned about the expense and business model of Logos. Seriously they overcharge for free books then endlessly dog me to buy more stuff...and I am suppose to support such pricing because they cant' control business costs? ROFL.

If you only want to read a resource, find it for free or pay a minimal cost for it on something like a Kindle. If you want linking to other resources, searching/organizing by different indices, ability to organize with other resources for research and study functions, ability to highlight and mark up, ability to integrate with your own notes, ability to extract/sort/export/print included bible references and more, you need resources which have data added to them, have been formatted, have been organized in a database, and been integrated with software offering this functionality.

There are times it appears to us, the user community, that Logos resources are more expensive than the same resources in other Bible study software offering like-minded functionality. But there are also times Logos resources are cheaper. To what degree that is an efficiency, condition of the manuscript, Logos pricing, or original resource owner pricing issue we do not know, as all four conditions contributing to the final pricing decision. No one has said the Logos' business costs are "out of control", but empirical evidence would suggest otherwise since they are growing (this article just came out today), have an excellent product, continue to hire, are recognized as an excellent company to work for, and lots of people are buying their resources (which implies they see the value).

I just wanted to make the point that comparing Logos resources to free public domain and Kindle resources is illogical. A person is either going to want the extra functionality or not, and that dictates which resource to acquire and the rationale for a different cost model.

Mike Pettit

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274202#Comment_274202

I am curious as to why I have to be concerned about the expense and business model of Logos. Seriously they overcharge for free books then endlessly dog me to buy more stuff...and I am suppose to support such pricing because they cant' control business costs? ROFL.

You should look up "free" in a dictionary, I am sure that the programmers and data processors at Logos do not consider what they are doing to be free.

You could turn it around and ask why Logos should be concerned because you cannot control control your own income and personal costs, the argument is shallow and deeply flawed.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274200#Comment_274200

Mike, I think you have made some good observations concerning Logos.

However, I doubt you saw all these things up front, I bet you learned them over time.

These well taken points are not something that the average person starting off with the software understands from reading the Logos adds listed on their website.

As a result you are going to have a group of people disappointed when they want to add a book such as the book mentioned at the start of this discussion. It is not their fault they do not understand everything you have mentioned, they just want a good book to use in their Logos program at a savings like they had in their package deal. The price they see on public domain books they try to buy is way out of line for them.

For these folks it may be best if they understand the many points you have made and step and decide if Logos alone fills their needs or if they need a Logos plus another program to fullfill their need.

I have found that very few Christians will want to go with a Logos only program because it is more than they need or in my case more than I can afford. I still hope they compare Logos with other programs that are sold on the market, because the study system in general is the best out there, and it is hard to find copyrighted material anywhere near the price and near the amounts needed for a good study library in any other system.

I believe Logos users need to help these folks see that Logos still helps meet some of their needs, but that they may also need to use one of the free alternatives to fill in places that they simply can not afford to use Logos for.

Logos is not really fleecing the sheep, they just are not able to meet their expectations because Logos does not match their buying ability and needs.

My goal is to get as many folks as possible into the scriptures, so they may grow in their Knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. Logos is an important tool to help me reach my goal, but it is not the only tool that I have in my tool box. I have to try to match the tool to the person's need and ability and willingess to pay to have that need met.

Thank God for Logos, I love the things the software allows me to see in the Word of God!!! I has changed the way I study, and without it I would have nevers started work on my DTH.

Your brother in Christ,

Jim

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274206#Comment_274206

Again why should I care what costs Logos confers when I buy (or in my case seldomly buy) this product? If they can't control their costs they raise the prices. When the prices get too high sales go down. When sales go down I get even more advertising. Which means their costs are too high so reduce costs, reduce overhead, and lower prices.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274209#Comment_274209

Again why should I care what costs Logos confers when I buy (or in my case seldomly buy) this product?

You shouldn't, except to help you understand why they may be charging more than you would otherwise think.

But, if you don't care why their prices are high, and those prices are too high for you, just don't buy books from them. It's not that complicated.

I only buy books from Logos when the price is one I'm willing to pay to have the resource in Logos format. Other factors (like what it costs Logos to produce the book) don't figure much into my decision. Such factors help me understand why a price might be higher than I wish, and may make me feel a bit better about a decision to buy, but they don't really drive my decision to buy/not buy.

I see no reason to opine nor whine about Logos prices. Buy their books, or don't.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274214#Comment_274214

I agree there's no reason to 'opine or whine' about the 'Cadallac of Bible software'. Some members at our church have Cadallacs and Mercedes while others drive old used cars. They all arrive for worship and great fellowship.

When I chat with a fellow believer that isn't wealthy, I certainly don't brag about the latest Cadallac.

And similarly with Bible software, I can't recall every recommending Logos4 to any of our members (or our pastor). I'd be embarrassed to ... just as I'd be embarrassed to recommend they buy a Mercedes.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274207#Comment_274207

Without a doubt the best deal for great resource books that I ever got was my upgrade from Gold to Platinum, when they first came out with Logos 4. But you had to be there at that time.

But the problem is still not addressed by that. Most people want a program where they can buy the books they want at a good price, when they want it. With Logos if you want a copyrighted book, most of the time you get that, but it is very hard to feel that way about buying the public domain books.

Ask yourself this, how many times have we bought a public domain book at a good price through the community pricing program only to see it now listed as a pre-pub for 6-10 times more than the price we paid for it, to help pay for the cost to get the book published. For most people the idea of a 3-4 times would even seem high.

For most folks the economy is really bad, and still book prices are going up, I believe based on the factors I have been looking at that things are going to get worse before they get better, as a result I believe many folks will be forced to either stop getting Christian books or they will start getting free ones.

Meanwhile there are programs for free with over 3500 free public domain books on a single site (E-Sword) and there are other programs with over 2000 public domain books that are very searchable. If our goal is to help them with their bible study, and they can not afford Logos, what shall we do???

For me the best case would be to see cheaper Logos starter packages with a few copyrighted study aids and a lot of Public Domain books, with a PBB builder where those without money could build more Public Domain modules for now, and buy the copyrighted books they needed at current Logos prices.

In Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274217#Comment_274217

And similarly with Bible software, I can't recall every recommending Logos4 to any of our members (or our pastor). I'd be embarrassed to ... just as I'd be embarrassed to recommend they buy a Mercedes.

Actually, I think the base packages are a great buy, and the value of the resources are enhanced by the software. I can't think of a better software package to recommend to a pastor on a budget (I have a very limited budget, e.g.).

But to me Logos is a tool. As a pastor, it's the 'brand' of tools I've chosen. A mechanic might choose Snap-On, or Mac, or some other top of the line tool brand, or a consumer brand like Craftsman (also very good, IMHO). Those tools will all do the same thing, but a mechanic is buying not only tools but reliability and service (which is why many choose the more expensive brands, rather than the consumer brands).

I think preaching is at least as eternally significant as fixing cars, so I think it's worth getting the best I can afford. Not for the name/brand bragging rights, but because the tools, along with the reliability and service are top of the line, and also worth paying for.

Your metaphors may vary.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274207#Comment_274207

I have found that very few Christians will want to go with a Logos only program because it is more than they need or in my case more than I can afford. I still hope they compare Logos with other programs that are sold on the market, because the study system in general is the best out there, and it is hard to find copyrighted material anywhere near the price and near the amounts needed for a good study library in any other system.

Partly true or true to an extent. I didn't buy the Keil & Delitzsch commentaries on the OT since it is fairly long in the tooth and there were other things that were more current I wanted more. I finally did buy it when I was able to get a good discount on it so I finally bought it. Having two programs can be a total nuisance so I intend to migrate everything to Logos to the greatest extent possible. Sometimes (infrequently) there are even things which simply not available in Logos (yet?) which are available elsewhere. Usually these are not academic-type works and therefore integration into Logos is not really a concern, but still I have a desire to use only one program. There are some map programs which fall into this category. Like the Jewish "Next year in Jerusalem" I say "Next year in Logos."

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274209#Comment_274209

Again why should I care what costs Logos confers when I buy (or in my case seldomly buy) this product? If they can't control their costs they raise the prices. When the prices get too high sales go down. When sales go down I get even more advertising. Which means their costs are too high so reduce costs, reduce overhead, and lower prices.

There is an easy answer which is not to complain about it -- simply don't buy it.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274217#Comment_274217

And similarly with Bible software, I can't recall every recommending Logos4 to any of our members (or our pastor). I'd be embarrassed to ... just as I'd be embarrassed to recommend they buy a Mercedes.

Unlike you, I wouldn't be embarassed to recommend Logos, but for that matter I wouldn't be embarassed to recommend that someone buy a Cadillac or a Mercedes if that is what they really seem to want. Each to his own taste.

BTW: I certainly don't drive either of those vehicles since my criterion for selecting a car is more utilitarian and economic.

EDIT: It's good to see that you got your name back.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274218#Comment_274218

For most folks the economy is really bad, and still book prices are going up, I believe based on the factors I have been looking at that things are going to get worse before they get better, as a result I believe many folks will be forced to either stop getting Christian books or they will start getting free ones.

Are free books by definition not Christian books? I don't think that you intended to imply that. [;)]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274221#Comment_274221

Richard ... the example of 'tools' seems apt. On church work-day, I bring my Ryobi's along, noting how cute they are and thereby causing our male believers to shake their heads in Tool-Time sadness. But having the right little tool to tighten the hard-to-reach screw inside the communion table has a lot of merit.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274238#Comment_274238

Richard ... the example of 'tools' seems apt. On church work-day, I bring my Ryobi's along, noting how cute they are and thereby causing our male believers to shake their heads in Tool-Time sadness. But having the right little tool to tighten the hard-to-reach screw inside the communion table has a lot of merit.

You sound like my daughter. She buys all the gadgets. Me, I don't even have a toaster but use the broiler to toast items since I don't want to clutter my cabinets any more than they already are. If a screwdriver will do the job, why use a hammer? (Well, that's a bit extreme)

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274174#Comment_274174

At one time I really thought that Logos would be the one bible program for everything and everyone, but I have given up on that.

I love Logos and it caused me to see study in a different light, but they can not be my one system.

For one thing their notes are a let down,

for a second thing their Public Domain books are to expensive,

I can not afford them, except if I can get them when on community pricing,

and the third problem is there are too many computers that don't run it well,

and to go along with that many folks don't have internet access to run it and download everything.

Wow, you put the words in my mouth Jim!

[Y]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274202#Comment_274202

I am curious as to why I have to be concerned about the expense and business model of Logos. Seriously they overcharge for free books then endlessly dog me to buy more stuff...and I am suppose to support such pricing because they cant' control business costs? ROFL.

I think you meant to say they "overcharge for public domain books" because it is rather difficult to overcharge for free books. ~ Unless you are asking Logos to pay you to sign up for the upcoming 3000+ free books hitting Pre-Pub this week......

I have three preachers in my extended family who do not use Logos. Guess what, they are never hounded to buy stuff from Logos. If you don't want to get wet little kitty, don't jump in the pool. You won't find me crying all week in the Accordance forums. [:'(] If you need help unsubscribing to all the email alerts of sales or a therapy referral for forum addiction, I suppose we can help.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274238#Comment_274238

On church work-day, I bring my Ryobi's along, noting how cute they are and thereby causing our male believers to shake their heads in Tool-Time sadness.

Hillarius. If I am ever in Sedona, I hope it is on church work-day. [:)]

I can't recall every recommending Logos4 to any of our members (or our pastor). I'd be embarrassed to ... just as I'd be embarrassed to recommend they buy a Mercedes.

Don't you think that is a bit harsh? With you, I like Richard's tool analogy. The problem with the car analogy is that Luxury cars don't provide much (if any) greater intrinsic value. A car is to get you from place to place. Having leather trim and wood panelling doesn't help you accomplish that any better. Logos, on the other hand, does help many people to study the Bible better than cheap or free alternatives.

There is an organization, started as an outgrowth of a church, which provides Bible Software for free. It's primary emphasis is for Bible reading rather than study. I love the app they have made, and I recommend it to friends and family as a good way to get into a Bible reading plan. However, the organization is a not-for-profit and depends upon donations to keep it going. Logos relies upon customers, and I am not ashamed to be one. [:)]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274248#Comment_274248

The problem with the car analogy is that Luxury cars don't provide much (if any) greater intrinsic value. A car is to get you from place to place. Having leather trim and wood panelling doesn't help you accomplish that any better. Logos, on the other hand, does help many people to study the Bible better than cheap or free alternatives.

I believe the car analogy holds up even here. Those of us who grew up in the USA before the Interstate highway system was built remember how bad the roads could be. (Judge Mills Lane likes the phrase, "40 miles of bad road.") A Lincoln or Cadillac floats down those bumpy roads a lot better than a Chevette or Pinto. Just don't expect total perfection from even the best. That is not going to happen.

If one wants to read the Bible on a computer, that can be done with many programs. And as Bohuslav said a while back, you can still read the Bible without a computer.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274248#Comment_274248

Alabama24 ... I don't regard my statement as harsh.

In church, when there's many that struggle to keep a job from week to week, it's critical to tread lightly on anything that translates 'money'.

And in the world of Bible discussion, trotting out the fine points of hebrew might indeed be interesting, but more often than not simply translates to a pecking-order of 'knowledge'. Most folks in our church are down-to-earth, happy to find an extended meaning within a passage but more importantly value the fellowship of a shared hope.

Maybe down the street there might be pastors and members who enjoy/need 'the power'. That's certainly ok.

But in my small-town world, simplicity and inexpensiveness are valued.

A nice member, who I believe used to pastor, has Libronix. Even with him, I don't mention Logos4. He's happy where he's at and that's what counts.

Does that insult Logos or its owners. I'd hope not.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274207#Comment_274207

However, I doubt you saw all these things up front, I bet you learned them over time.

I agree. Few, if any, of us had knowledge of the inner workings of Logos marketing strategies and how to leverage our buying funds. The same goes for young people getting married. They really have no clue what they are getting into. [Y] [^o)] [N]

I see a few of your valid points as problematic. Most people in training for Christian service do not have a lot of funds for anything greater than their basic sustenance. Even a substantial academic discount does not help if you have no money to begin with.

When I bought Scholars Edition I had the idea of only adding copyrighted books to my Logos library and use other programs to get cheap or free public domain works. It is not a bad plan if you don't mind firing up multiple programs. But after I started seeing what Logos could do that the other programs could not do, I saw the value of consolidating everything in my Logos library. I am retired (small fixed income) and buying resources is a major purchase for me. I have to get creative to fund my Logos purchases. I even forgo little luxuries I used to take for granted.

Each of us has to work with whatever methods get the job done. I don't fault anyone for using cheap or free software to study the Bible. I also won't fault Logos for being the best out there. (Somebody had to be the flagship. Why not Logos?)

Claybon Collins Jr

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274258#Comment_274258

Logos gets my vote and I recommend it to everyone I know. I would love to buy everything they sell but I know I don't have the ability to do so, so I purchase what I can and use CP all the time. [Y][Y][:)]

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274258#Comment_274258

I have to get creative to fund my Logos purchases. I even forgo little luxuries I used to take for granted.

Weren't you seen at lunch with a $350.00 bottle of wine? [;)] Oh, that was Paul Ryan. [:D]

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274255#Comment_274255

In church, when there's many that struggle to keep a job from week to week, it's critical to tread lightly on anything that translates 'money'.

Denise -

Thanks for the perspective. Having just graduated, I am too "looking for work."

I didn't take your comment as an insult, but I still find it difficult to equate owning Logos 4 with owning a Mercedes. With Vyrso coming, I hope they will be competitive, and that I will be able to recommend resources more often.

Otto S. Carroll

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274260#Comment_274260

Logos gets my vote and I recommend it to everyone I know. I would love to buy everything they sell but I know I don't have the ability to do so, so I purchase what I can and use CP all the time.

Same here!!!

CP, pre-pubs, Christmas specials etc, third party vendors for older packages, and even regular price if I really want the resource. And concerning the resources I would love to have but can't afford - TOUGH & SO BE IT (unless of course there's a sale that brings them within my reach - LOL!!!). It doesn't cause me to have negative feelings about Logos as a company - I will continue to take advantage of what I can afford in the Logos format. And I have absolutely no problem recommending Logos 4 to others - it is the only program I do recommend, for it is the only one I use!!! [:D]

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274258#Comment_274258

Each of us has to work with whatever methods get the job done. I don't fault anyone for using cheap or free software to study the Bible. I also won't fault Logos for being the best out there. (Somebody had to be the flagship. Why not Logos?)

Agreed. I don't get upset because I can't afford a Bentley, so why should someone get upset because some Logos resources seem a little high priced?

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/274271#Comment_274271

Which sheep is feeling better?

I know which one smells better. [+o(]