liberal or progressive resources
I have Scholar's and several other purchases, about 550 resources in all (until Perseus makes it 3550 
). I've had a hard time finding critical resources targeted at "seekers." Where are authors like Borg or Crossan? Shoot, there's not even any Tillich. I'm looking for viewpoints that are decidedly NOT in the "inerrancy" or "rapture" camps.
Peace.
Comments
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Chris myers said:
I have Scholar's and several other purchases, about 550 resources in all (until Perseus makes it 3550
). I've had a hard time finding critical resources targeted at "seekers." Where are authors like Borg or Crossan? Shoot, there's not even any Tillich. I'm looking for viewpoints that are decidedly NOT in the "inerrancy" or "rapture" camps. Peace.
A search on Logos' web site for Tillich pulls up 6 resources, all of which include articles by him in some sort of collection of articles.
A search for Borg pulls up resources by N.T. Wright, all of which appear to target Borg's theology.
A search for Crossan pulls up 9 resources/collections, including a few of his works.
BTW, one's definition of Liberal/Progressive varies widely. So widely, in fact, that neither are particularly helpful terms. When you clarify non-inerrant and non-rapture, do you intend to include those who hold to infallibility and amillennialism?
Targeting "seekers" is an entirely different matter from the question you pose, IMHO.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Hey Chris! A couple things:
Jump all over the "suggestions" forum section and suggest away. you will likely find several who agree, and we peons around here like to believe it just may influence Logos, if they haven't got those works already in the pipeline.
Also, maybe you might search by publisher. I don't exactly know what you are looking for beyond the few that you have already mentioned, but I would say there are some more academic works that might be pushing the envelope beyond what you see as a "norm" around Logos. Journals like Semaia, publishers like Anchor Yale, etc., might give you something. I would say Portfolio as a package might have more works like you want.
But again, suggest away!
Glad you're making yourself known. Take heart, change does happen around here. [;)]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Borg's The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions, co-authored with N.T. Wright is available (and very worth getting, in my opinion). Crossan edited a number of volumes of Semeia, which is also available. Apart from that, you're pretty much out of luck, at least as far as those particular authors go.
My guess is that there's not much of a demand for writers like them among the Logos customer base. Tillich is another matter, though, as quite a few people have requested his works.
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Chris myers said:
I have Scholar's and several other purchases, about 550 resources in all (until Perseus makes it 3550
). I've had a hard time finding critical resources targeted at "seekers." Where are authors like Borg or Crossan? Shoot, there's not even any Tillich. I'm looking for viewpoints that are decidedly NOT in the "inerrancy" or "rapture" camps. Peace.
Frankly, I have never understood what was meant by "seekers" since I consider myself to be one seeking knowledge. I consider myself to be quite conservative, but you might hear otherwise from some (some might even doubt whether I'm a christian at all). As Rich has noted, YMMV on those definitions.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Chris myers said:
Where are authors like Borg or Crossan? Shoot, there's not even any Tillich
Historically, the bread-and-butter of the Logos customers hold to something like the Chicago Statement. But Logos has reached out to other groups and is beginning to broaden their catalogue. The current list of recent Catholic scholars in Logos includes:
Balthazar, Hans Urs von
Blenkinsopp, Joseph
Brown, Raymond E.
Chesterton, G. K.
Crossan, John Dominic
Dahood, Mitchell
Donahue, John R.
Elliott, John H.
Fiorenza, Elizabeth
Fitzmyer, Joseph A.
Giblin, Charles Homer
Green, Barbara
Guarino, Thomas G.
Hamm, Dennis
Healey, Mary
Hunter, Sylvester Joseph
Karris, Robert J.
Kilgallen, John J.
Kreeft, Peter
Kurz, William S.
Lawton, Robert B.
Malina, Bruce J.
Mattison, William C.
Meier, John P.
Mitch, Curtis
Montague, George T.
Murphy, Roland E.
Newman, John Henry
Neyrey, Jerome
O'Toole, Robert F.
Ott, Ludwig
Rahner, Karl
Ratzinger, Joseph
Schenker, Adrian
Shelley, Bruce L
Sri, Edward
Stegman, Thomas D.
Stuhmueller, Carroll
Taylor, Justin
Viviano, Benedict T.
Williamson, Peter
I haven't made a similar list for Lutherans, Anglicans or the mainstream Protestant churches. Catholic certainly is not liberal but compared to the Chicago statement it is a move in the direction of your interests. I don't know if they can get the copyrights but I'm sure that Logos understands that there is a market for Bultmann, Bonhoeffer, Tillich ...Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dan DeVilder said:
I would say there are some more academic works that might be pushing the envelope beyond what you see as a "norm" around Logos.
I personally find more that pushes the envelop in the popular literature ... I've tried to plough through books for review that I find downright scary in their abuse of fact and logic.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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T MacLeod said:
My guess is that there's not much of a demand for writers like them among the Logos customer base.
I suspect many requests for these writers go through email rather than forum channels. I, for one, would love to have Crossan's book on parables available in Logos. The fact that I find that volume valuable says nothing about my views on the author's Christology. And the fact that I find Roy Gingrich's Seven Resurrections valuable says nothing about my view of his ecclesiology. But speaking at least for myself, I suggest on the forums only books that I think a number of other forum members would find useful - or would love to know the book exists.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I suspect many requests for these writers go through email rather than forum channels.
forgot to mention email. thank you. I'd say do both. And suggest away on the forums, too, MJ! I want to see those "others" you want. Or at least cc me on your logos email . . . [:-*]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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great list of catholic authors. iwas going to mention that that was one of the areas logos has grown in. I had no idea that list was so long (alhtough as to how many works that corresponds to, I don't know.)
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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To some extent Logos will always be "conservative" in outlook as it is centered on Bible study and interpretation, with the integration between resources and the Bible being the premier feature.
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Recent 'seeker' (sorry George) titles might be missing(?). One I wish had been on Logos, since it took forever to read the hardcopy, is Ehrman's recently updated text on manuscript changes and their possible/probable relation to theological arguments at the time. Having the Logos tagging (and mouseover notes) would have really saved some time.
But Logos does have quite a bit of what some might view as 'curious'; it just doesn't trumpet it similar to D. A. Carson, etc.
Kirsopp Lake is best known for his Apostolic Fathers translations. But his other writings I think are better developed than Crossan, and as such, much more thought provoking (and not as wordy too). There's a Logos Lake collection available for the ordering/sign-up but I doubt it goes anywhere soon. Need a lot more 'seekers'. I ran into Kirsopp from the Ehrman discussion on manuscripts, for which Kirsopp was an expert.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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This topic has been rolled around in the forums several times now. It does appear that Logos has a solid base of conservative, and of late several other traditions, but has huge holes in it's "progressive works" that one could expect to find in most mainline seminary theology classes. We can find a link to a UFO book and patriotic bibles but not to Tillich? Sort of an odd selection of materials imo. The selection of materials does seem to refelct the over all theological perspective of most of the bible software that remains in the market so there is no real loss for the selection choices by Logos.
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Rene Atchley said:
We can find a link to a UFO book and patriotic bibles but not to Tillich?
lol, that's great, Rene! [:D]
my guess is, securing the rights to a UFO book was a lot easier, AND it built up their number of volumes offered. But there is no doubt in my mind that we will someday get Tillich, Niebuhr(s), Hegel, Lessing, Kant, et al . . . it's comin', baby!![Y]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Rene Atchley said:
We can find a link to a UFO book and patriotic bibles but not to Tillich? Sort of an odd selection of materials imo.
[Y][:D]
Rene Atchley said:he selection of materials does seem to refelct the over all theological perspective of most of the bible software that remains in the market
I suspect that the Bible study practices that could be supported on the early home computers created a built-in bias towards inductive, single-passage Bible software. Which made the market heavy on the Evangelical-Fundamentalist side. The tools provided still are biased that direction but are slowly morphing into a broader set of tools. I expect that to change over the next few years as "the rest of us" get software companies to understand our needs.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
... bias towards inductive, single-passage Bible software. Which made the market heavy on the Evangelical-Fundamentalist side. The tools provided still are biased that direction but are slowly morphing into a broader set of tools.
I'm one of those Evangelical-Fundamentalist guys I suppose (depending on whether you define it literally or politically), and I tend to side with (variously attributed to B.R. Lakin, H.B. Sightler, etc, etc.): "Wherever you are, I'm to the right of you". [;)] That being said, I've found that the majority of "conservatives" want to study both sides of the issue... Personally, I enjoy studying the points raised by liberals, conservatives, and moderates. I believe that most thinking disciples do.
"I read dead people..."
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MJ. Smith said:
I suspect that the Bible study practices that could be supported on the early home computers created a built-in bias towards inductive, single-passage Bible software. Which made the market heavy on the Evangelical-Fundamentalist side. The tools provided still are biased that direction but are slowly morphing into a broader set of tools. I expect that to change over the next few years as "the rest of us" get software companies to understand our needs.
I am also one of those Evangelical-Fundamentalist types who enjoy interacting with other viewpoints. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "single-passage" Bible software. Certainly most of us who hold to a literal, historical, grammatical interpretation of scripture would state strongly that any passage can only be understood properly if viewed in the broader context of the entire canon.
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MJ. Smith said:
I suspect that the Bible study practices that could be supported on the early home computers created a built-in bias towards inductive, single-passage Bible software. Which made the market heavy on the Evangelical-Fundamentalist side.
That does not explain the heavy presence of Reformed resources which are anything but single passage due to the passion for sytemising theology on the basis of innerancy.
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macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
alabama24 said:
I've heard him preach before his health failed, but can't claim a personal acquaintance. What a fireball with an obvious anointing.... fond memories
"I read dead people..."
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Mike Pettit said:MJ. Smith said:
I suspect that the Bible study practices that could be supported on the early home computers created a built-in bias towards inductive, single-passage Bible software. Which made the market heavy on the Evangelical-Fundamentalist side.
That does not explain the heavy presence of Reformed resources which are anything but single passage due to the passion for sytemising theology on the basis of innerancy.
I could certainly be wrong. The things that make me think it are
- comments made about choosing passages for sermons by those not using a lectionary sound as if the sermon is usually on a single passage
- the lack of notes being naturally built to apply to more than one verse ... the model of notes in the margins seems to imply that notes are either a jump to another location or a comment just on the current verse
- the use of reading plans that read straight through the Bible rather than reading plans that include some unifying theme for the readings and mix the testaments
- the comparative lack of parallels between one passage and another in books and software - there's a reason I had many hand-built parallels in L3. By "lack" I'm thinking pre-built Bible studies and software
This doesn't mean that the Evangelical-Fundamental side doesn't do multi-passage studies. They do and are very good at putting them in chart form for the average believer. But if you browse the web (or bookstore) for bible study guides you'll see a difference in emphasis. I'll also admit that with the number of Catholic converts writing study guides the difference is narrowing.
In theology, I tend to see the reverse - many on the sola-scriptura side provide long lists of proof texts. But it still feels to me like a list of independent items rather than a group providing a cohesive argument. That may be, however, because my reading is primarily creeds and official church documents. My primary interests are Bible study and liturgy - I'm not a theologian at heart.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Theological terms often lose their meanings unless we keep piling on the adjectives to further define them. Most Logos users consider themselves "seekers." Building a resource library usually happens in a predictable order. We first get resources that reflect what we are already familiar with, then venture out into the contradictory views, and finally the unexplored areas. When and where you quit depends on the purpose of your studies and your self-discipline. [:$]Chris myers said:I've had a hard time finding critical resources targeted at "seekers." Where are authors like Borg or Crossan? Shoot, there's not even any Tillich. I'm looking for viewpoints that are decidedly NOT in the "inerrancy" or "rapture" camps.
I have found the T&T/Clark/Sheffield resources contain scholarly material that qualifies. The Anchor Yale Bible and companion Reference library. Many new Baker Academic titles in Pre-Pub. A few of the authors in Logos do not believe in Jesus as divine or resurrected.Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I don't understand your question, please define what you mean by "seekers"? I would guess there is not enough Logos buyers to cover the cost to produce the full books of these guys. However, I would buy a book that discussed the key points of their theology, but only to use as a reference book. Lastly, I would categorize these guys writings in the same section as the Jehovah Witness' and the Mormons, etc.
Chris myers said:I have Scholar's and several other purchases, about 550 resources in all (until Perseus makes it 3550
). I've had a hard time finding critical resources targeted at "seekers." Where are authors like Borg or Crossan? Shoot, there's not even any Tillich. I'm looking for viewpoints that are decidedly NOT in the "inerrancy" or "rapture" camps. Peace.
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MJD said:
Lastly, I would categorize these guys writings in the same section as the Jehovah Witness' and the Mormons, etc.
Deleted as I can't find appropriate wording.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I do not wish to get into Theological debate.
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MJD said:
I do not wish to get into Theological debate.
Good. You still have a few hours to pick up that gauntlet you threw down.
I don't think you want everybody to start telling you how they bunch everybody else together. [:O]
edit: Oops, I see it has already been memorialized in a quote.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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There have been a couple of questions asking what I mean by "seeker." I should have realized that the word is a bit loaded. What I'm asking for essentially are resources that are open to questions as opposed to telling me the answer. I'm an Episcopalian who believes that the Bible is a beautiful, truthful, messy document that comes maximally alive when thoroughly chewed on and questioned. I think that Logos is very light on resources that do this and I would like to see more.
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SuperTramp, I have also found that the T&T Clark resources tend to be more "mainline" friendly, for lack of a better descriptor. I'd love to have the AYB, but I really need to keep making my house payment! I'll check out the Baker stuff. I most definitely believe Jesus to be divine and resurrected, but I still find that authors that push the envelope can have interesting things to say.
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Thanks for the supportive welcome, Dan! Portfolio will have to wait until my money tree takes root, but even with what I have it's like trying to sip from a fire hose :-).
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Chris myers said:
. . . I'm an Episcopalian who believes that the Bible is a beautiful, truthful, messy document that comes maximally alive when thoroughly chewed on and questioned. . . .
Then you might enjoy: http://www.logos.com/product/5748/a-marginal-jew-rethinking-the-historical-jesus
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Chris myers said:
There have been a couple of questions asking what I mean by "seeker."
Thanks for narrowing it down a little. In my neighborhood we use the term "seekers" for the younger generation who grew up un-churched in any faith and are honestly "seeking" answers but have no idea even how to ask the questions, much less dig up the answers. The churches that cater to their needs tend to have an easy going, contemporary worship service on Sunday am or even Saturday evening. They utilize small groups to accomplish discipleship and fellowship. I think our local definition of the word is quite different from yours. Our "seekers" have never heard of Tillich, N.T.Wright, Carson, or the Historical Jesus. But they do think the Da Vinci Code is part of true church history.[8-)]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Chris, I have used Logos for many years now, and I am not in the Reformed camp. I do not believe that Logos publishes to push a theological agenda. Like any publisher, they publish what sells. There are a lot of Calvinists out there, and they buy books.
In fact, I have found Logos pretty responsive to requests, provided they can sell enough to make it profitable. That is as fair as one can expect. In fact, Logos seems to really try to publish a broad perspective of theologies within the boundaries of making a profit.
If they don't make a profit, they can publish nothing.
The Personal Books feature is a great way to get material into your Logos library that they don't publish. I am adding material from my theological interests that just aren't popular enough to make it worthwhile for Logos to publish. Logos is under no obligation to publish my interests.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Chris myers said:
but I still find that authors that push the envelope can have interesting things to say.
Ohh, "push the envelope" I understand! [:D]
There have been quite a few suggested to Logos but for one reason or another they are slow in coming. I believe part of it is a smaller number of users asking for them. I would hate to think it is because some Logos users take offense at views that "push the envelope."
There are a few titles in upcoming Fortress Press collections in Pre-Pub that might qualify. I have a couple dozen of them in paper. They tend to "re-imagine" theology in their own perspectives. Some are feminist, some liberation theology, several talk about "empire", a few deal with race, economics, and sub-cultures like prison. All are very interesting and give your mind something to chew on. And then there is Karl Barth.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Brother Mark said:
I've heard him preach before his health failed, but can't claim a personal acquaintance. What a fireball with an obvious anointing.... fond memoriesalabama24 said:
Mark - How do you know about B.R. Lakin? Did you ever meet him?Brother Mark said:B.R. Lakin
I've got B. R. Lakin preaching on some cassettes. Listened to him preach while I did spring cleaning this year. Boy I got a lot done, except when I rewound the cassette and had my wife come listen to it. [Y]
back on topic here:
I agree. My purpose of studying other views is more a study of the people who hold those views than seeking their version of God. Every now and then my spiritual life is greatly strengthened by someone I thought was "pushing the envelope." Thomas Manton, for example.Brother Mark said:That being said, I've found that the majority
of "conservatives" want to study both sides of the issue... Personally,
I enjoy studying the points raised by liberals, conservatives, and
moderates. I believe that most thinking disciples do.Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super Tramp said:MJD said:
I do not wish to get into Theological debate.
Good. You still have a few hours to pick up that gauntlet you threw down.
I don't think you want everybody to start telling you how they bunch everybody else together.
edit: Oops, I see it has already been memorialized in a quote.
Super Tramp,
I am not following your post[8-)]
But, I will tell you this... The truth is still the truth (whether one believes it or not) and the truth will set you free!
I rest on the Word...
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”
The Holy Bible: New International Version. 1996 (electronic ed.) (Jn 14:6–21). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.0 -
MJD said:
I am not following your post
But, I will tell you this... The truth is still the truth (whether one believes it or not) and the truth will set you free!
The Truth is the Truth whether or not we got it all correctly nailed down. Thank God it does not depend on my mind!
MJD said:I do not wish to get into Theological debate.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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MJD said:
I do not wish to get into Theological debate.
MJD, you have been around the forums sufficiently long to know that the forums are not intended for statements that might be considered derogatory or insulting. I think that this is an accurate portrayal of what STramp was trying to convey. In the forums we want to ensure that all Logos users feel welcome. This is to our advantage in that the more Logos sells, the more apt they are to be in a position to offer our own favorites.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:MJD said:
I do not wish to get into Theological debate.
MJD, you have been around the forums sufficiently long to know that the forums are not intended for statements that might be considered derogatory or insulting. I think that this is an accurate portrayal of what STramp was trying to convey. In the forums we want to ensure that all Logos users feel welcome. This is to our advantage in that the more Logos sells, the more apt they are to be in a position to offer our own favorites.
I am not sure how my statement was degrading or insulting... I am not, and will not be "Milk-toast", nor will I agree with everyone. If I didn't have thick skin, I could have been insulted by your post. But, I believe your intentions are meant to be good, just misguided.
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MJD said:
I am not sure how my statement was degrading or insulting... I am not, and will not be "Milk-toast",
Good, I prefer coffee or tea with my toast. [;)] <rimshot>
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:MJD said:
I am not sure how my statement was degrading or insulting... I am not, and will not be "Milk-toast",
Good, I prefer coffee or tea with my toast.
<rimshot>George,
It is always good when you jump in, I know you have a "back-bone". I also like your quote by Jan Hus, he was a the tip of the "reformation spear".
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Chris myers said:
I think that Logos is very light on resources that do this and I would like to see more.
I've started a separate thread that allows you to see which theologians of the last century are included in Logos. http://community.logos.com/forums/t/37188.aspx By included I mean what may be as little as an article in an anthology. But there is more breadth than appears at first glance. I can vouch that you can find enough to keep you pocket book empty ... and the list is noticably growing.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Very nice list, MJ! Thanks.
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hard as i tried, i could not resistMJD said:It is always good when you jump in, I know you have a "back-bone". I also like your quote by Jan Hus, he was a the tip of the "reformation spear".
Hmm.... "tip of the spear" of the Reformation, "backbone", "milk-toast" ...
Sounds like you have a penchant for violence there. If it were not for the heroic efforts of this type of thinking, Foxxe would not have been able to compile his Book of Martyrs.
If your goal is to win the lost world with violence and insult, you have only 6 billion more to go . How is your method working out for you? There are whole organizations dedicated to doing nothing more than place a Bible in the hands of the unsaved. I welcome any & all to study the Bible, even using Logos software. Isaiah 55: 1-13
[C] I'm no milk-toast or jelly-fish either. Why am I suddenly so hungry?Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super Tramp said:
If your goal is to win the lost world with
violence and insult, you have only 6 billion more to go . How is your
method working out for you? There are whole organizations dedicated to
doing nothing more than place a Bible in the hands of the unsaved. I
welcome any & all to study the Bible, even using Logos software. Isaiah 55: 1-13Super Tramp,
I am not an advocate of violence... But, I do have a sword, and it is the Word of God! I will personally be accountable for what I say/said, and also what I didn't/don't say (when I should have said something in order to stand for the TRUTH)... I pray that I will not be "Milk-toast" (modern day political correct, in order to not offend), I pray that I stand STRONG on trying my best on being obedient to the Word of God. See Eph 6:10–20 it says it all for me... How do you counter this position?
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
19 Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.
The Holy Bible: New International Version. 1996 (electronic ed.) (Eph 6:10–20). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.0 -
MJD said:
How do you counter this position?
I don't want to "counter" anything from inspired scripture but I do think we need to consider the whole counsel of God. And my inspired, inerrant Bible includes these applicable passages too:
- Mark 9:38-41 "..... For he that is not against us is on our part...."
- Matthew 5:44-48 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; ....."
- Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Don't kill the lost souls the Savior came to redeem.
MJD said:I do not wish to get into Theological debate.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I don't dismiss your passages, but the application bears no truth to our discussion.
I will love all -- by sharing the "Gospel of Jesus Christ", this is the greatest love of all. But, I will not water down His message, in order to allow all people to fit in. I will try to not be adversarial or antagonistic, and I want people to be comfortable, but, not at the expense of the truth. Christ paid the ultimate price to give[G] me/you/everyone who believes(requires a personal relationship) in Him LIFE!
Separation from God is Death[U], even though we may be biological alive, we are DEAD without Christ. We have no "LIFE" apart from Him, we have but a mere existence. I don't want anyone to be deceived that they have "Life", even though they don't know Christ. We can not stand idle, doing nothing, and allow the half truths and twisted words of man and society to bring deceit and death to others because they are separated from Christ.
In closing, studying the Bible, without worshiping Jesus brings death. Our God is not a God to be studied, but a God to be Worshiped. We have personal responsibilities as Christians to share "Life", and that is through the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Nothing else!
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MJD said:
In closing, studying the Bible, without worshiping Jesus brings death. Our God is not a God to be studied, but a God to be Worshiped. We have personal responsibilities as Christians to share "Life", and that is through the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Nothing else!
My brother (or sister?) MJD. I'm pretty sure that the Holy Spirit specifically employs the Word of God to bring conviction of sin and separation from God... and to quicken those dead in trespasses and sin. In that light, your statements seem just a tad self-defeating. I have difficulty picturing unregenerate sinners worshiping Jesus before hearing/reading the Bible as you suggest.
Stated another way, I'm thrilled that the folks you named (Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons) might study the Bible. Our clever words and judicial pronouncements have never had the effect of correcting inaccuracies the way that God's Word does.
"I read dead people..."
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Brother Mark said:
I have difficulty picturing unregenerate sinners worshiping Jesus before hearing/reading the Bible as you suggest.
Worshiping God -- is when we place extreme value in Him, and place his worth above all other things. God starts this process and I agree unregenerated sinners are not going to be worshiping God. My point exactly.
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MJD said:
... God starts this process and I agree unregenerated sinners are not going to be worshiping God. My point exactly.
MJD said:In closing, studying the Bible, without worshiping Jesus brings death.
Do you see what I mean about contradictory or self-defeating statements? On the one hand you seem to agree that God does the the work of salvation by the Spirit through the Word... then confuse us by saying that the unrepentant (those who aren't worshiping God) shouldn't be studying the Word.
"I read dead people..."
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