For Sale: Pillar, Baker Exeg., Baker NT, BDAG, AT Robertson - $390

Kevin,

If I had to guess... upgrading to Platinum? Other users might consider that it might be cheaper to upgrade to the Platinum library which includes all the listed resources (and more) than to buy this set... Cost me $280 to upgrade from Gold to Platinum given my existing library.

Just making sure users know what options are available before paying $390 for something they might be able to get cheaper.

Also Kevin, if you are in fact upgrading to Platinum (or beyond!), it might be worth considering that transferring these licenses away will increase your upgrade price since it takes into account any resources already in your library.

Or is it possible to upgrade then sell individually purchased books...?

You did the same thing I did as far as upgrading - I have many of the same items for sale..

Hoping I can find a buyer! 

RickSmith said:

You did the same thing I did as far as upgrading - I have many of the same items for sale

Notice you said you bought an "upgrade." The way that works is you get a discounted price for having bought the product previously. That makes "your" investment transfer into the new product and out of the old product. It is no longer yours if value was applied to your new purchase. It is like trading your old car in on a new car and trying to sell the old car to someone else when the car dealer now holds the title. It is illegal conversion of assets. Just because they may allow you to slap them on the cheek does not make it the right thing to do.

In the good ol' days whenever you upgraded they made you mail in the install diskette, user manual cover or something to prove you were entitled to the upgrade. The old software was then to be destroyed, not sold.  Maybe Logos will have to go back to that method if this generation hasn't understood the concept.

Wow...!

I think many of you have a HUGE misunderstanding either about their policy, or what we are talking about doing.

First, when I called Logos to talk about upgrading my library to a newer one, I asked about several books that I paid for SEPARATE then my base package that are now included in the base package. (For me the two big ticket items were "BDAG" and "Baker Exg.")  I was informed that for me I was paying to upgrade from the Logos 3 to Logos 4 base packages, and my upgrade price was from one package to the other. Since the 2 items in question were paid for separate, and not part of the base package, it's as if I had 2 hard copies at the book at this point.

I CLEARY asked the rep if this was correct and he said YES (several times.)  The main reason I wanted to upgrade was to have access to those 2 main resources that weren't in my first package.  It would not have been worth it to upgrade if this wasn't true, because I already owned the two main reasons I would pay to upgrade for the new package.  So when I called they rep said I could treat these two books as PHYSICAL books, and sell them as I wish (since they weren't part of the package), so based on what he told me I decided to go ahead and upgrade.  I know what I paid for the first base package, and for what I paid for the upgrade, and there was NO WAY the upgrade price considered the fact that I purchased BDAG and Baxter EXG  - no way.  (plus the rep is the one that talked to me about all of this.)

Since I paid to upgrade the base package, anything I bought extra stands alone, it has nothing to do with the base package I owned.  

I don't appreciate how some of you would just jump the gun and call people's integrity into question.  I made the decision I made based on what I was told by the Logos rep.  I had no idea I could even do this until the rep told me about how they "do it all the time" and how it was " no problem" since I basically owned two copies of these resources; one that came with my newly upgraded package, and the one that I paid for separate from my base package.  

Before being so quick to point fingers at people, I would suggest showing a bit more grace, and asking questions about their specific situation - and if that person is in sin; point their error out in LOVE, and pray they would repent.  I hope you don't minister to people the same way some of you treat people in these forums.  

In grace and truth - 

Rick

EDITED:

Entire, long post was deleted because it was already properly linked in the 4th post of this thread.

Now we have conserved a little electronic space. [:^)]

RickSmith said:

I CLEARY asked the rep if this was correct and he said YES (several times.)  The main reason I wanted to upgrade was to have access to those 2 main resources that weren't in my first package.  It would not have been worth it to upgrade if this wasn't true, because I already owned the two main reasons I would pay to upgrade for the new package.  So when I called they rep said I could treat these two books as PHYSICAL books, and sell them as I wish (since they weren't part of the package), so based on what he told me I decided to go ahead and upgrade.  I know what I paid for the first base package, and for what I paid for the upgrade, and there was NO WAY the upgrade price considered the fact that I purchased BDAG and Baxter EXG  - no way.  (plus the rep is the one that talked to me about all of this.)

Maybe what your saying is right. I didn't here the call so I'll assume you are. I would encourage you to hold off selling these books until the dust settles. I would hate for you to be in the position of losing resources because of a mis-understanding or selling something to someone that they have trouble using because of a conflict in licensing. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying Logos is very busy and trying to get license issues like this resolved is not their top priority right now. There could be some confusion in the process.

The entire reason I upgraded was because of the information that LOGOS told me.  (It seems as if Kevin was told the same information.) 

I don't work in digital publishing, I have no idea how it works; all i know is what I am told by the company that does deal in digital publishing.  I don't know the rules, laws, ethics involved; I can only relay on what info I am given from the company I am doing business with.  They are the one that told me, and Kevin, to do this.

Now if what the reps told me, and Kevin, is true then we are 100% in the right in selling the few resources that were not part of a package.

If the reps told us wrong info, either they a.) knew it was wrong, and told us that just to make a sale. So they would have to be liars, and simply telling us something they knew to be false just so we would "buy with them today"  b.) They had the wrong info, or weren't aware what they were saying was wrong  - either way, that has NOTHING to do with the character, and ethics of Kevin, or myself.  

RickSmith said:

I don't appreciate how some of you would just jump the gun and call people's integrity into question.  I made the decision I made based on what I was told by the Logos rep.

You were told wrong by the rep. The upgrade prices are different for each user based on the previously purchased titles they have registered in their account. I already purchased R.A. Torrey Collection, Baker NTC, and several other stand-alone pricey titles. I upgraded to Portfolio that includes about 5 "duplicates. My "individualized upgrade price is cheaper than yours." because they did in fact credit me a percentage of those purchases. I say a percentage because they are already discounting the whole package close to 90% off. Would you expect them to refund 100% of your previous purchase and let you repurchase that for 10%? Especially after selling you $31,000 in resources for a few grand?  Alain Mashee addressed this percentage issue in another forum post earlier this week. I asked BobP what "duplicate" titles I still possess ownership of so as to avoid selling something he already gave me consideration for.   Read his response posted in brown text above.

Even if it is not sin on your part to sell it, it is VERY bad form to walk into the Logos forum and advertise to sell it. This is worse than spam!

Matthew, 

I appreciate your zeal, I hope God is using this to do great things!  

While I think you are a bit wrong on some of your math, I digress.  However; I would encourage you to re-read my post, because I did not "walk into the Logos forum and advertise to sell it."  I said I was planning on doing the same thing. Same thing = selling the resources I was ADVISED by Logos to sell, not necessarily selling them on this forum.  

(On a side note - I don't think it's "bad form" for Kevin to try to sell his resources on this forum, it sounds pretty smart to me.  If Logos told him (and me) to sell them, what better place to find buyers then a forum filled with users of the software?)

Also, you may want to call and speak to a rep again. I know they have told this to many people. (In fact if you call right now, they will tell you the same thing Kevin, and I told you.)  So they are still telling customers this.  I'm surprised Logos would be telling so many people a lie, it doesn't seem like a company that would tell lies to customers in order to gain sales.

(Also, I can't speak for Kevin, but I'm not an elder at my church.)

RickSmith said:

Also, you may want to call and speak to a rep again. I know they have told this to many people. (In fact if you call right now, they will tell you the same thing Kevin, and I told you.)  So they are still telling customers this.  I'm surprised Logos would be telling so many people a lie, it doesn't seem like a company that would tell lies to customers in order to gain sales.

(Also, I can't speak for Kevin, but I'm not an elder at my church.)

Well I have calmed down now.....[:|]  As Brother Milford says "Peace"  [W] and  [:D]  "Joy" 

I will call Logos. Maybe I was told incorrect info.     I hope you understand my impassioned response. When I have received nothing but good from this company it hit me the wrong way.  Kind of like when @ccord@nce users come here and bad-mouth Logos.  

May God give me the grace to be like my mature Brother Milford,  "Peace" and "Joy"

KevinEdwards said:

Concerning my advertising the sale of these Logos resources in this forum, it was the Logos folks who recommended that I do this. So, not only was the procedure of how to sell, but the place to sell these was also explained to me by the Logos folks. As pointed out in the first post in this thread, please call the Logos folks if you have any questions about this, and they will tell you exactly what they told me (and Rick).

Still not entering into the debate about the resale....

But, I'm sorry to hear that the forums may become a place where items are put up for sale...

It's not a debate anymore.

I don't own the forums either.

I do think there is a communication breakdown in the Logos ranks.

What I think doesn't really matter.

I'd love to have been told wrong and permitted now to sell my "duplicates."

Done with this one......

I agree.

"Maybe we don't allow license transfers of anything included in the highest level you've purchased. And if you transfer first, and then upgrade, we remove from your discount collection anything transfered"

I don't understand this. Why would you move from the new collection anything transferred?  That doesn't make sense.  For instance if I bought a gold package, Logos 4 - and then bought a BDAG for 100 bucks, and returned it a few weeks later because I didn't like how it key-linked, or something else, or perhaps gifted to a friend who wanted it, but couldn't afford it - then a month later you came out with Logos 4 and I decide to upgrade to the new Logos 4.  I pay the upgrade price from Logos 3 to Logos 4, and it just so happens Logos 4 has BDAG in it.  You are saying that you should delete BDAG out of my new LOGOS 4 package because I had it in the past, and sold it, gifted it, or returned it?   What difference does that make on the package I have vs the package I'm upgrading to?  I'm PAYING to upgrade to the new collection, EVERYTHING that's in it.  If you take out something out of the new package we are buying, then we aren't getting what we paid for, since we pay for  everything that comes on the list of products that says is included with the new package. (which is what you are saying you are doing for me and others that have resources we bought separate - you are basically taking them out of the new package we are buying.) 

This is one of the reason I have trouble with electronic books.  (Logos, Kindle, etc...). It's very confusing who OWNS the books.  Recently amazon got into a lot of trouble by deleting 1984 off of people's kindle who felt that they owed the book, and even though it was a digital book, it should be treated just like a hard copy. (it certainly no cheaper)  If I would had bought BDAG for 100 bucks, and later bought someone library and that library included BDAG I would have 2 copies of BDAG, but with it being electronic "books" there are so many loop-holes that make it unclear to the consumer what we are purchasing, and what is "ours."  Then when things are unclear, we don't really understand our rights to the items we believe we are "purchasing" and then posts like this pop up. (You never see forums like this over hard copy books.  You buy a book - you own it.  It's very clear.  It's not so clear when dealing with electronic books.) 

I apologize for the tone of this post, but it's frustrating when you are unclear on your ownership rights, and you contact the only ones who you know you can provide you with clarity, and they give you misleading information.  (And in the end the consumer has no idea if they info is right or wrong, I'd have to do tons of research to find out who is right, and what my ownership rights really are.)  Things are just to unclear. (even the upgrade paths that I have heard are different prices for people with the exact same resources,  different prices when calling in, different prices when logging into your account, etc.  Just very unclear to me.  

Again, you don't have these sorts of issues with printed books. 

Bob Pritchett said:

Possible solutions? Maybe we don't allow license transfers of anything included in the highest level you've purchased. And if you transfer first, and then upgrade, we remove from your discount collection anything transfered. (A lot of code, but doable. We'd have to record transfers as negative purchases, to have your records reflect not only what you'd spent with us, but what you'd "unspent" as well.)

Bob, thanks for reading and responding to this thread! 

This option I copied above has the Logos "feel" to it to me.  It's more like owning a physical book which the customer controls, not some totally DRM locked down resource that is in the control of the company, like Amazon's model. 

This is something that has attracted me to Logos and I know many others as well.  I have always assumed (and you have operated this way in the past) that Logos would allow us to transfer individually purchased books around as if they were physical books of which we were in control.  Of course this doesn't apply to bundled titles that came in packages. 

It may cost Logos some money in the short run, and you may end up not making as much on upgrades, but think about the customer loyalty you are gaining by treating us well!  Happy customers refer others.

The upgrade price could be dynamic per user.  If someone wants to sell resources before upgrading, then that could cause the upgrade price to increase if those resources were part of the higher collection.  So if someone sells BDAG, have their upgrade price automatically increase by $150.  If that's too much work, then simply flag recent resellers ineligible for upgrade discounts within a certain period of time.

An easier option would simply to post what Bob stated on the upgrade page.  It's not clear to everyone why a user is seeing 25% off instead of 15%.  There should be an explanation below stating that this reflects redundancy in what the user has already purchased and what is in the offered package.  Then state that selling current resources may cause the upgrade price to increase.  Even if the code is not yet implemented to do this, the warning itself would be a deterrent.

The biggest loopholes in the reseller market are with the academic pricing.  It would be easy for an academic user to make a profit selling off discounted resources.  Academic users should not be allowed any transfers until 1 year out of the academic program.  Furthermore, they should only be offered downloadable products that can tie the license key with their accounts.

Bob, I have a feeling no matter which way you choose to address this issue people will be unhappy, myself included. But I think you need to do what's best for Logos in this case.   Logos is a business and therefore needs to make a profit.  If it doesn't make a profit then eventually it won't be there for its customers and they  will lose what they have invested in resources.  I know none of us wants that to happen.  

Logos has always given me tremendous value for the dollars I've spent.  Thank you.