How Long Before Mac Developers Will be Allowed to Catch Up to Windows version?
I am writing in hopes that Logos will start to give some serious attention to slow down adding new features and try to get the existing ones working properly.
For a long time, I have reported that some of the most basic functions just don't work.
For example, I cannot even organize the sub-folders in Favorites to organize them. Of course, this is easily done in the Windows version, but Mac seems unable to find the time to fix this.
Even more significant is that the Passage List feature is virtually useless for teaching because section titles are missing and do not appear in the Mac version (as far as I know, the Windows version does work properly). Why won't Logos allow developers to prioritize the fixing of critical regressions?
There is a long list of items that are simply inferior on the Mac version... see here. The current list includes
- PC Notes have more capabilities than Mac, includingautomatic hyperlinking of scripture in notes and right click to Note item. Logos 4.3 added keyboard shortcuts and bullet usability, but still needs more improvement; Logos User Voice suggestion =>Rework notes function – in one or multiple phasesincludes: “Implement parity for Mac version”; plus a specific Logos User Voice suggestion => Improve Logos 4 Mac Note Positioning
Changes promised for Logos 4.5 Beta, Note positioning on Mac included in Logos 4.5 Beta 1 - PC has more font size options: Program Scaling plus font slider adjustment in Bible Word Study, Biblical People, Biblical Places, Biblical Things, Cited By, Collections, Copy Bible Verses, Exegetical Guide, Explorer, Favorites, History, Information, Passage Analysis, Passage Guide, Passage List, Personal Books, Power Lookup, Program Settings, Pronunciation, Reading Lists, Reading Plan, Search, and Text Comparison. Specific Logos User Voice suggestion => Logos 4 Mac Program Scaling and Font Sliders, using new text slider in Logos 4.5 Beta 1Basic and Bible searches may hang program.
- PC Highlighting can create style then choose color that does not work on Mac plus editing new Mac style shows color missing along with Bugs languishing for 7-months... and Bug: Create/Edit Highlighting Style – cannot click on “choose a file ...”, Mac style color issue fixed in Logos 4.5 Beta 1
- PC Guides (Exegetical, Passage) have Stop button while Guide is populating, lacking on Mac
- PC Passage List has drag and drop option to change verse order plus compact view to show verse references without text along with ability to insert Heading, Mac lacks drap and drop, always displays full view and lacks Insert Heading
- PC Morph Search Analysis group by Lemma shows Lemma in summary lines, Mac does not
- PC Bible Word Study (BWS) has click on hebrew lemma option to change numbered lemma’s, need workaround for Mac.
- PC Bible Search with Grid display can hover mouse over grid box to display Bible verse in a pop-up. PC mouse pointer changes to hand over Bible version header; both PC and Mac can click Bible version header to change text displayed in Grid.
- PC Bibliography works, planned for future Mac release, included in Logos 4.5 Beta 1
- PC Cited By tool has right click heading option to Expand, Expand All, or Collapse All, missing on Mac
- PC Collections can drag and drop from Open menu into (+) these Resources and (-) these Resources, fix promised in Logos 4.5 Beta, included in Logos 4.5 Beta 1
- PC Copy Bible Verses can specify styles for Copy and Paste into Word that does not work on Mac
- PC Home Page customization has drag and drop option to change order of display (can sync to Mac via Logos servers).
- PC Read Aloud uses Text to Speech system speed preferences, but Mac always uses same speed
- PC Resource download(s) can be done in one session, but Mac needs many restarts, improved in 4.3 Beta 11, still an issue in 4.3 Release Candidate 1
- PC Scrolling in search results can be done using arrow keys on keyboard, not usable on Mac
- PC Search results has right click expand/collapse options plus larger clickable area for article expand/collapse than Mac
- PC Text Comparison can select and copy individual verses, but Mac needs workaround using Print/Export
- PC Timelines has styles menu to change timeline appearance, not yet implemented on Mac
- PC has middle mouse clicks that do not work on Mac(click middle mouse button to close a resource)
Again, maybe if enough users show an interest, Logos will begin to put a genuine effort to bringing the Mac version up to par with the Windows version.
Comments
- Prefix book name with Logos internal number (e.g. 61 Matthew, 64 John, ...), then right click on 61 Matthew => Sort by name.
- Create new folder, then drag sub-folders to new folder one at a time in desired order
- Use Logos 4 Windows to arrange sub-folders, then sync to Logos 4 Mac.
- The iPhone 3GS (two generations behind) can run the latest versions of iOS.
- PowerPC users got a major release of OS X after the switch to Intel.
- Intel machines could run PowerPC apps for three major releases of OS X.
try to get the existing ones working properly.
[Y]
There is a long list of items that are simply inferior on the Mac version... see here.
This is why I hesitate to promote Logos to my Mac-using friends.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
[Y][Y]
Rusty,
You have not been using Logos very long I do not believe. My impression, having used the software for a long time (the early 90's), is that they will get these things fixed and up to speed sooner rather than later. They have moved L4 Mac along at a good pace since the Alpha. I have confidence in the those programing and directing the efforts of the company.
Please do not take my comments as condescending, as that is not my intent. You have a right to your opinion as I do mine.
A poster on one of the other threads made a good point:
Mac's are still a very small part of Logos Sales, thus, as such a small marketshare footprint, I doubt we are going to see much improvement in the speed of changes.
I sure hope that's not their way of thinking. Logos claims there is no Mac or Windows version because the software is "multi-platform". I've tried it on both OSes and although the core Logos 4 engine is the same, there are very obvious differences in functionality and the Mac version is way behind. Someone needs to crack the whip because there are a lot more Mac users out there. Besides, the user minority shouldn't be looked down on as unimportant. As a Mac user I don't want the crumbs and if I'm going to get the crumbs why am I paying the price of a full platter? The software and book bundles are not cheap. If I pay the same as a windows user, I should get the same features as the windows user.
As far as Logos sales and market share goes, I hope Logos is doing this for the right reasons and not for the $$$$. I'm sure their intent is to further the gospel and aid in spiritual growth through better bible study tools. Their tools are excellent, but let's have some equality. If the Mac version is behind, make the effort to get it right.[:D]
For example, I cannot even organize the sub-folders in Favorites to organize them. Of course, this is easily done in the Windows version, but Mac seems unable to find the time to fix this.
Logos 4.5 Beta 4 on Windows allows sub-folders in Favorites to be arranged by dragging and dropping while Logos 4.5 Beta 4 on Mac needs a workaround:
Updated wiki Feature Parity – Mac needs many improvements (added link to this thread).
Again, maybe if enough users show an interest, Logos will begin to put a genuine effort to bringing the Mac version up to par with the Windows version.
Logos User Voice voting is showing Logos 4 Mac Enhancements more desired than all Feature Parity suggestions. Also included couple more suggestions mentioned in thread => Logos 4 Mac Consensus for Improvement Priorities
# 19 => Logos 4 Mac Enhancements with 174 votes, a possible follow-up to Suggestion for something special for the L4 Mac
# 39 => Improve Logos 4 Mac Feature Parity with PC with 64 votes
# 47 => Floating window layouts with 54 votes
# 71 => Improve Logos 4 Mac Note Positioning with 25 votes
# 77 => Improve Logos 4 Menu Responsiveness with 23 votes
# 100 => Logos 4 Mac Program Scaling and Font Sliders with 13 votes
# 193 => Please add Logos 4 Program Settings with 4 votes
Note: Logos User Voice currently has 409 suggestions open for voting.
Keep Smiling [:)]
Sigh.
There's no conspiracy here. Yes, we make more money from Windows sales. But Mac is growing fast, and that may flip sometime in the near future. We did, however, have about 17 years head-start on the Windows side. So unless we make the Mac team 3-4 times larger than the Windows team, it'll be a bit behind.
To say we're ignoring the Mac, or aren't committed to the platform, is simply silly. Our iOS platform support is excellent and keeps advancing; we don't even have a Windows Phone version. And Proclaim (which is the first app we wrote that didn't have 17 years of Windows history already) has been in near lock-step parity all along the way.
For what it's worth, the client-side Mac team is (at my last inquiry) larger than the Windows team.
Unfortunately, according to the developers -- including the Mac devs! -- coding on the Mac is much more difficult than on Windows. (If you disagree, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just reporting what I'm told, and have experienced.) The tools are not as mature and we don't have access to all the same platform features. So a feature like "Program Scaling" is a pain. This is a feature we never had in Logos 3, and only put in Logos 4 for Windows because WPF (the Windows display platform) basically gave it to us for free. It's just a couple of lines of code, because WPF handles it all. On the Mac is much more complicated, because the Mac display system doesn't handle "global scaling" the same way.
This is a consequence of doing the Mac version after Windows. If we'd started dual platform this feature would have been trivial to have in perfect parity: we would not have chosen to implement it on either platform. :-)
(In the same way, we used a data grid control on Windows that wasn't available on the Mac, where many features have needed a lot more code to re-create that functionality. This is one of the few third-party components we've used, but it is a significant piece of code. The Mac simply doesn't have the components / dev-tools infrastructure that Windows does.)
We're trying hard. We are re-writing some components to be cross-platform, instead of depending on underlying OS implementations that work differently. We are planning to open a satellite development office near Phoenix, AZ in the next few months to get access to a different and larger labor pool.
And I'll commit right here and now to hire the next 5 qualified Mac developers you send my way. :-)
Hmm... what about a new forum rule, where you can't complain about the Mac port until you have forwarded a development candidate? Doesn't everybody know at least one software developer? One smart person who could study software development?
-- Bob
PS Does it show my commitment that I'm reading the Steve Jobs biography?
PS Does it show my commitment that I'm reading the Steve Jobs biography?
This is sooooooo tempting ... I give in ... Does it also mean we can expect more Buddhist resources?[:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
Dear Bob: Reading the biography means different things to different people, however, from a leaders position and, one in your field, I would think there are many reasons to read the book, many insights to be gained, ideas to think on, some to reject etc.
Next: I would well imagine Osx would be challenging for people used to writing code for windows and used to windows tools.
I have also heard from many who have written primarily from Osx who find writing for windows and using those tolls, to be very frustrating.
Point: Many contemplatives will tell you that whatever spiritual discipline one begin's in will probably remain their main point of reference all their life. Thus is one began Benedictine, that discipline will be part of their life for their whole life, if one began Celtic, same thing, so forth and so on.
I tend to think this is probably true with code as well, the things people cut their teeth in, the one they get comfortable with, the one they "think" spatially, is the one that they are most proficient in.
There are several companies I know of that the code writers there speak of windows code and the tools being slow, complicated and a bit of a pain.
I also know many companies that write for Osx do so as proficiently as any windows based company writes code.
It is probably very difficult having both and trying to have both work together to try and do things that are best for both codes- In that, I certainly appreciate the difficulty you and your staff face.
iOS seems to be working well for you/us, mine has not crashed even once, read on it daily, nightly and, enjoy it. The code stays out of the way, the device disappears into the work/reading I am doing- well done.
Sadly, I can get more work done on my iOS devices with Logos, than I can my Mac.
I hope you find the code writers you need.
I hope your writers will concentrate on getting what you have working with stability , before moving on to more additions.
In my opinion, it is still better to work on one thing, do it well, finish it, then move to the next, than it is to try too many things at once. But of course, that's just my opinion-smile.
Lastly, I for one appreciate your interaction here ( and your sense of humor ), it does help knowing someone in/with authority is at least reading, taking in the different situations, getting the "snapshots" that Forums provide of the larger picture.
Please know that, contrary to some thinking, I do not believe my posts or those of others are intended as simply griping, complaining , though it may well seem as such.
Mine are simply the frustrations of a small Parish Pastor with limited financial resources, trying to make the best use of the funds he can muster.
Thanks again for your interaction, it has not fixed the crashing-smile- but it is nice to know you care enough to look in on the situation.
Grace and Peace,
Rusty+
I tend to think this is probably true with code as well, the things people cut their teeth in, the one they get comfortable with, the one they "think" spatially, is the one that they are most proficient in.
However, it is also true that particular platforms have particular strengths and weaknesses. I once worked on a very obscure computer made by Reality. One requirement for being trained on the equipment was that you had experience on something other than IBM. The truth is that the logical patterns an excellent programmer has at their disposal are platform independent. The tools they have to implement that pattern is a major element in the speed with which a feature can be developed. Competent programmers are easy to come by; if you want to spread into truly new solutions you need superb programmers - and they can be hard to find.
My favorite hire - in academic administrative computing on Unisys and COBOL, I hired a programmer whose experience was entirely on CAT scan equipment in C+. He was the key in our first web based administrative application on Linux in Java. The remainder of the team? Unisys-COBOL, IBM-COBOL, track star with no experience and self-taught C+. The project came in on time and within budget. Moral: When Bob says it is partially the tools, believe him. Who knows - when he's out of school I might recommend my grandson to Bob. My grandson is already helping with a web "front end" to Logos.[:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
Who knows - when he's out of school I might recommend my grandson to Bob. My grandson is already helping with a web "front end" to Logos.
Why would you wait for him to finish school? Working at Logos provides an excellent education, and it pays better, too. [:D]
David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife
To say we're ignoring the Mac, or aren't committed to the platform, is simply silly. Our iOS platform support is excellent and keeps advancing; we don't even have a Windows Phone version. And Proclaim (which is the first app we wrote that didn't have 17 years of Windows history already) has been in near lock-step parity all along the way.
Bob,
You opened this discussion up by mentioning Proclaim...
Why would you use valuable Mac programers[8-)], which you say are almost impossible to find on developing a new software (i.e. Proclaim) when you don't have all of the bugs[sn] worked out of the Mac L4 platform?
Why did you not concentrate your efforts to complete one thing before you started another?
Why would you use valuable Mac programers, which you say are almost impossible to find on developing a new software (i.e. Proclaim) when you don't have all of the bugs
worked out of the Mac L4 platform?
You must have missed my analogy of Spring cleaning. If you are waiting on events beyond your control to fall in place on one project, it does not mean progress in other areas should not be attempted.
Why did you not concentrate your efforts to complete one thing before you started another?
I'm not convinced the CEO owes any explanation or apologies for being a multi-tasking creative genius. He has certainly taken Logos a lot further than any of us could.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
Why did you not concentrate your efforts to complete one thing before you started another?I'm not convinced the CEO owes any explanation or apologies for being a multi-tasking creative genius. He has certainly taken Logos a lot further than any of us could.
This question was asked specifically to Bob.
I am not sure why you (Super Tramp) answered a question that was directed to Bob.[^o)]
Secondly, I wasn't trying to convince you. This was directed towards Bob, and I would love hear Bob's response on why resources were used on Proclaim versus Logos 4 (Mac), when there is so many shortcomings as described by Joe a recent employee of Logos (Joe's post has caused me serious concern). Before a new program (Proclaim) was launched.
Thirdly, speak for yourself in regards to how far "any of us could" have done anything. I am sure there are many mega talented people on this forum, that have great abilities, please don't cut them short with your mere assumptions!
Lastly,
I know Bob is talented, smart, etc., etc., what I would like to know is why a new project was started at Logos prior to fixing an existing project. There are limited resources, and to allocate Mac Developers to Proclaim, while lacking developers for Logos 4 repairs causes me concerns???
I will wait patiently wait to hear from Bob. Thank You.
I am not sure why you (Super Tramp) answered a question that was directed to Bob.
I have also been known to call the police when a domestic dispute spills out into the street, or call the dog pound when a yappy Chihuahua bites school kids walking home.
why resources were used on Proclaim versus Logos 4 (Mac),
You are assuming the shortfall is with Logos resources, while Bob's posts clearly state their is a shortage in qualified applicants. Would you suggest Bob hire new people who can not accomplish the job? Or maybe reassign some of the sales staff, or Windows crew to write Mac code? Bottom line is, Bob spends more of Logos' money every day than your lifetime investment in Logos. I think he can be trusted with these decisions.
Thirdly, speak for yourself in regards to how far "any of us could" have done anything. I am sure there are many mega talented people on this forum, that have great abilities, please don't cut them short with your mere assumptions!
Oh, there a lot of people who claim they can do something. A few may not be exaggerating. The only person that matters is the one who actually does something. Matthew 21:28-32
I will wait patiently wait to hear from Bob. Thank You.
You can reach him quicker by sending your questions directly to him at
Bob@Logos.com I've found it helps a lot to dial the correct phone
number when you want to communicate with someone. The days of "party
lines" are long past. If you tried direct communication with Bob already
and you are getting no answer, Bob is either real busy running the
world's best Bible software company, or he could just be ignoring you. [:O]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
I am not sure why you (Super Tramp) answered a question that was directed to Bob.
I have also been known to call the police when a domestic dispute spills out into the street, or call the dog pound when a yappy Chihuahua bites school kids walking home.
You make no sense, there is no correlation.
why resources were used on Proclaim versus Logos 4 (Mac),You are assuming the shortfall is with Logos resources, while Bob's
posts clearly state their is a shortage in qualified applicants. Would
you suggest Bob hire new people who can not accomplish the job? Or maybe
reassign some of the sales staff, or Windows crew to write Mac code?
Bottom line is, Bob spends more of Logos' money every day than your
lifetime investment in Logos. I think he can be trusted with these
decisions.
"resource = Mac developer"
Do you get it, or do I need to go into further details? I am not sure where your disconnect is?
Thirdly, speak for yourself in regards to how far "any of us could" have done anything. I am sure there are many mega talented people on this forum, that have great abilities, please don't cut them short with your mere assumptions!Oh, there a lot of people who claim they can do something. A few may not be exaggerating. The only person that matters is the one who actually does something. Matthew 21:28-32
You were the one who spoke about the lack thereof. Don't you get it, nobody claimed a lack of ability except you!
I will wait patiently wait to hear from Bob. Thank You.You can reach him quicker by sending your questions directly to him at
Bob@Logos.com I've found it helps a lot to dial the correct phone
number when you want to communicate with someone. The days of "party
lines" are long past. If you tried direct communication with Bob already
and you are getting no answer, Bob is either real busy running the
world's best Bible software company, or he could just be ignoring you.This was an open forum comment -- in order to allow MANY PEOPLE to see the dialogue. I agree, Logos is the the best Bible software company, but it still needs to get better in the Mac L4 world. You may be right, he could be ignoring me.
there is no correlation.
The correlation is you have a $25,000 relationship with Logos. That is a significant connection. Why would you allow your dispute with your "significant other" (Logos) spill out into a public venue where you demand the CEO give you an account of his decisions?
You were the one who spoke about the lack thereof. Don't you get it, nobody claimed a lack of ability except you!
Bob said there is a lack of qualified applicants. I say the 22 Logos users (out of 750,000) who think they could do a better job than Bob Pritchett, have so far done nothing in the way of re-imagining Bible study. A handful of our MVPs have done a lot more for Logos 4 than all the critics combined. Mark Barnes created a bibliography tool and many videos. MJ Smith has created many reading lists, collected lists of creeds and confessions, and encouraged mind mapping. Virtually all of Dave Hooton's posts are helpful answers to technical questions. Todd Philips, formerly with NASA, is great with technical issues as well as familiarity with commentaries. Kevin Becker, Rosie, KS4J, and several more who know resource content, write wiki entries, and give quick help to newbies when no one else is available.
It really does not matter if everyone on these forums is more mega-talented than Bob if they are not actually doing something with it. If they are not willing to move to Bellingham and join the Mac development team, they classify themselves as "unqualified." The positions advertised say nothing of armchair quarterbacking.
This was an open forum comment -- in order to allow MANY PEOPLE to see the dialogue.
Hopefully some of the many qualified programmers will read it and submit their applications.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
there is no correlation.The correlation is you have a $25,000 relationship with Logos. That is a significant connection. Why would you allow your dispute with your "significant other" (Logos) spill out into a public venue where you demand the CEO give you an account of his decisions?
I don't have a dispute with Logos... what is wrong with you? I am concerned because I saw a comment from a very recently departed Logos employee. The comment concerned me... Why would he voice his concern over the forum? Is there something I am unaware of? Yes, I do have a large investment into Logos, and I want it function at the highest level.
You missed the boat, in your earlier post you made reference to nobody has the ability to run Logos better than Bob. My objection was to your comment, you don't know who has what abilities on this forum. "My dad is bigger than your dad" mentality" gets us no where.
Bob Prichard said it is harder to program the Mac than Windows. Since I am not a programmer I have no way to know about what the difficulties are.
But I wonder if it is harder because:
1. Mac users demand that programs be done right (the Mac way)
2. The underpinning of Logos is an orphan program that tries to enable Windows-type programming run on the Mac and makes the Mac program sluggish and has much more limited programming tools.
Is a straight Mac program, unencumbered with Windows mindset and code, truly more difficult to write than a straight Windows program. Or is it easier to produce junk on a Windows machine than it is on the Mac.
But I wonder if it is harder because:
1. Mac users demand that programs be done right (the Mac way)
Phil, your post is a bright light of joy in this forum! It makes me smile to to see such love and passion for a platform; it's been a while since the Mac/PC wars here have thrown up such a classic, elegant praise-the-Mac-while-backhandedly-insulting-Windows-users statement. (I'm not mocking, I'm admiring the subtle elegance.)
"Bob, maybe you're right, maybe Mac coding is harder, because it has to be done right, not like the code you write for the simpletons who use Windows, and don't know enough to want things done right."
:-)
For what it's worth, I coded for Mac's before I coded for Windows. But I'm a bit out of date, so I confess I'm reporting what I hear from programmers who may have been polluted by having coded on Windows.
But, let me try a different spin that may make reinforce your pride in the Mac while still explaining my statement:
Microsoft loves developers. Apple loves consumers.
(Or, more accurately, Apple loves elegance, and consumers appreciate elegance more than they appreciate anonymous developers getting love, but that makes for a less elegant phrase.)
Does that help? It explains why consumers rightly love Apple products, but also explains why developers -- who are most certainly not consumer-like in their technical needs and interests -- often find Apple hasn't designed things perfectly for them. It also explains Microsoft's otherwise-inexplicable ability to get broad support for their less elegant platform: they've bought off the geeks who actually make hardware and software products by catering to their geeky (and arguably not-consumer-oriented) needs and desires, for which nefarious payoff we (consumers) all suffer.
All in fun,
-- Bob
PS David Mitchell -- can you share your interface builder story?
PPS Yes, we could have delayed Proclaim indefinitely, and put those resources on the Mac version of Logos 4. That was my call, and I made it while balancing lots of things, including strategy, market expansion, and revenue planning. It may not have even been the right call, but that's how I called it then.
David Mitchell -- can you share your interface builder story?
Apple provides a developer tool called Interface Builder. We use it to quickly lay out the major components of our UI, which are then saved in files called "nibs" that can be loaded at runtime.
Up through version 3, Interface Builder supported plugins. Our layout needs are much more complex than what was offered by Interface Builder, so we built a plugin that supported the necessary features, and then we built over 600 nibs that depended upon this plugin.
One day, earlier this year, Apple suddenly released XCode 4. With no warning*, they had rolled Interface Builder into XCode and eliminated all support for plugins.
When we attended WWDC, Martin and I tracked down an Interface Builder developer to ask what the story was. He confirmed our worst fears: plugins were never coming back in a form that will be useful to us.
So now, instead of working on bug fixes, performance, or new features, one of our prized Mac developers has spent countless hours developing a tool that will allow us to migrate away from nibs so that we can all upgrade to XCode 4 (and Lion, which has known compatibility issues with XCode 3).
This is just one of the things that we mean when we say "developing for Mac is harder." Other companies wouldn't dream of removing support for a critical feature without years of deprecation warnings, but Apple did so in a single day.
That being said, was it the right call for Apple? Maybe.
Will dropping support for the feature allow them to build other new, innovative features? Probably.
Is that any comfort to us right now? Not at all.
* Arguably, the fact that Interface Builder never allowed plugins for iPhone was a clue that Apple no longer considered them important, but at the time, I had little experience in reading the entrails of release notes as a means of predicting the future. I'm much more sensitive to such things now, which is why I run a secret, 64-bit build of Logos 4 for Mac on my machine.
David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife
One day, earlier this year, Apple suddenly released XCode 4. With no warning*, they had rolled Interface Builder into XCode and eliminated all support for plugins.
David - Don't you think that part of this is because Apple expects (does what it can to encourage) its users to upgrade much sooner than MSFT? I mean, there is still a significant portion of windows users on Win XP!
which is why I run a secret, 64-bit build of Logos 4 for Mac on my machine.
[:D] It's our secret!
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!
One day, earlier this year, Apple suddenly released XCode 4. With no warning*, they had rolled Interface Builder into XCode and eliminated all support for plugins.David - Don't you think that part of this is because Apple expects (does what it can to encourage) its users to upgrade much sooner than MSFT? I mean, there is still a significant portion of windows users on Win XP!
With consumer-facing products, Apple is generally much less abrupt than they are with developer tools. Consider:
David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife
With consumer-facing products, Apple is generally much less abrupt than they are with developer tools.
I guess that is part of my point. By forcing developers in a certain direction, it moves things forward faster than on the Windows platform. I am sure that it can be aggravating for developers, but it makes things better for Apple's kind of consumer (i.e. the one who upgrades more often).
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!
With consumer-facing products, Apple is generally much less abrupt than they are with developer tools.I guess that is part of my point. By forcing developers in a certain direction, it moves things forward faster than on the Windows platform. I am sure that it can be aggravating for developers, but it makes things better for Apple's kind of consumer (i.e. the one who upgrades more often).
Another thing is that OSX upgrades are considerably cheaper than their Windows equivalents. e.g. moving from Snow Leopard to Lion is only £21 whereas Windows Vista to Windows 7 is well over £100!
However, that doesn't help Logos developers working with a multi-platform product. It's that multi-platform product which gives Logos the parity headaches which other bible-software programs don't have.
Yes, there are several things I would like to see in the Mac version - e.g. handouts. But I have learned so much as the Mac version has been developed that the learning curve has been that much easier than I expected when I switched to Mac just 2 years ago.
Also I would love notes in IOS.
iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8
MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.13.6; 256GB SSD; Logos 8
iPad Pro 32GB WiFi iOS 13.5.1
iPhone 8+ 64GB iOS 13.5.1
Again, maybe if enough users show an interest, Logos will begin to put a genuine effort to bringing the Mac version up to par with the Windows version.
[*]This is why I addressed Bob in the forum. Joe who is a former Logos employee asked for users to "show an interest" in order to get some resolution.
For a long time, I have reported that some of the most basic functions just don't work.
For example, I cannot even organize the sub-folders in Favorites to organize them. Of course, this is easily done in the Windows version, but Mac seems unable to find the time to fix this...
Even more significant is that the Passage List feature is virtually useless for teaching because section titles are missing and do not appear in the Mac version (as far as I know, the Windows version does work properly)...
I am pleased to find that both of these bugs/regressions were fixed in 4.5. Thanks. On the downside, the Headers in the Passage list were fixed, but now it does not display multiple translations properly. I am not sure who runs quality control, but significant feature regressions are being missed.
Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos? [H]
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
Joe,
I appreciate your questioning the progress on L4 Mac disparity with L4 Win. Could Logos 4.4 address this? As a Logos employee, you may be able to find out. Realizing priorities, I think at this point, many L4 Mac users would be willing to fall one step behind L4 Win in terms of new features, just to have all the existing differences properly addressed. Most disappointments with L4 Mac in the forums generally fall within this area.
Thanks for addressing this. You have my support in this endeavor.
There will not be a 4.4 release. Currently 4.5 is in beta.
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I am in the same boat as everyone else... a long time user for almost 18 years that wants the software to work for me and not against me [Y]My Books in Logos & FREE Training
Joe,
As a long time Logos user, and former employee this must be frustrating? I am with you, I don't understand their logic either. Logos knew the availability of qualified Mac developers was virtually non-existent. Why would they spread their developers out even thinner with a new product launch?
I went to the Logos site and looked at the jobs section. Maybe, Logos should give strong consideration to re-thinking there requirement to relocate since it is so difficult to get developers.[I]
"This position is at our offices in the wonderful city of Bellingham,
Washington. We are sorry, but we will not be considering applications
for remote employment or telecommuting."
I find this very suspicious to have an employee post a comment like this...[^o)]
Agreed MJD.
I might add: I find it "odd" to hear a company say they cannot "find" osx software designers that are willing to relocate. This does not seem to be a problem for other Osx based companies, and, I know of many that do not even require moving to work with code.
That is actually part of the problem. There are quite a few people who are willing to telecommute. Logos specifically states that all employment positions require moving to Bellingham (unless the job is regional.)
Most companies that lead their fields do so because they will only hire the cream of the crop. The pharmaceutical companies, engineering & architectural firms, chemical and aerospace industries send out "head-hunters" to recruit the top dozen students from the top dozen universities. (They will also try to lure them away from other companies with lucrative offers.) The rest of the graduating classes must go searching for jobs. Logos is the leading Bible software company and not only requires software engineering expertise, but knowledge of Greek, Hebrew, Bible, ministry, theology, marketing and multiple linguistic abilities. They also require some experience in the field the applicant is applying for. It must be difficult to find knowledge and experience in a qualified applicant who is able to pick up and move to Bellingham without disrupting an established family life. I think we will all agree it is desirable for Logos to hire the cream of the crop. That narrows the field considerably.
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The continued lack of "catch-up" for the mac version leads me to believe Logos thinks it is "good enough" to win the sale (a very windows/microsoft way of thinking).
Logos should be assured that they will slowly bleed out that revenue and see a continued drop in sales and market share. I've already stopped using Logos for anything but "go to" resources that are only found in Logos. I'm spending my money elsewhere because I no longer trust that:
a. Logos is committed to attaining key feature parity with the mac version
b. Logos is committed to the OS/IOS platform long term
I'm guessing I'm not the only one.
I totally get that it's hard to get "mac" developers to relocate to a part of the country where MS is deeply rooted and dominant. No shocker there; for the most part you're either going to find dabblers or inexperienced people who want to build up their resume. There's typically a few ways around this: first, build a satellite office in an area where it's much easier to hire the skill set and invest in telepresence & collaborative tools/methods (HUGE change for Logos, not likely, nor possibly wise), two, pay a steep premium to get the same experience/level of skill you have for other platforms and irritate your loyal dev team (creates all kinds of other problems), and finally... go slow, build as you are able and hope you don't fall too far behind (I didn't forget the contractor approach, just never works with something as monolithic and fast-moving as Logos, they learned that the hard way).
Clearly they've chosen the "slow and steady wins the race" approach. A wise business decision, but maybe not the best for those of us stubborn mac users.
Bye for now!
I don't. I think I know Joe well enough to say he would post this with or without the Logos logo, an MVP star, or any designation at all. He is not shy to speak and he is passionate about church planting. (Yeah, he loves Logos too.)
added: I am also aware of several MVPs who have publicly said some rather surprising things. And a few incidents of honest acknowledgement by Logos employees concerning bugs and how they will deal with them, or why a fix will be delayed. At least there is dialogue and some progress.
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Super Tramp... My suspicions were confirmed...[Y] Joe no longer works for the company!
I am, however, doing regional training independently in Southern California. The problems on the current state of the software make it very difficult to demonstrate and train Logos using my Mac. The software works fine for my personal study because I can work around the numerous bugs, regressions, and slowness, but in its current state the Mac version is an inferior product for using in training situations. As a full time Mac user, I would like to see this rectified.
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Is now I see [;)]
Amen brother! [Y]
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein