How Long Before Mac Developers Will be Allowed to Catch Up to Windows version?
Comments
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MJD said:
he was able to find and allocate Mac Developers to Proclaim.
It is *probably* not the best time for me to jump in, but I do feel compelled to correct a small factual error.
I've been working at Logos longer than we've had a Mac team. In fact, there was a time when I was the Mac team. During this time, we have been able to find and hire exactly one qualified candidate with prior professional Mac experience (he's on the Logos 4 team).
There has been no great exodus of Mac developers from Logos 4 to Proclaim. In fact, there's only one Mac developer on the Proclaim team who ever worked on the Mac version of Logos 4. All the others have picked it up as they've gone along—and they've done a splendid job.
There are even members of the Logos 4 team who are making the switch from Windows to Mac. However, making this sort of change—whether it's from Windows to Mac or from Proclaim to Logos 4—takes time, both for the developer making the switch and for the more experienced developers who must help him or her get up to speed on the new platform.
So while we are working to address the deficiencies of the Mac product, it will take time for some of these issues to get sorted out. It won't all be fixed tomorrow—and it may not be completely better next week, either. [:)]
David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife0 -
Nice post David, well done imho.
Honest, I like that.
Rusty+
P.S. ( Week after next will be fine-smile)
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Ok ST,
I apologize for making any suggestion.
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Mitchell said:
There has been no great exodus of Mac developers from Logos 4 to Proclaim. In fact, there's only one Mac developer on the Proclaim team who ever worked on the Mac version of Logos 4. All the others have picked it up as they've gone along—and they've done a splendid job.
That's reassuring. Thanks for the insight.
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David Mitchell said:
There has been no great exodus of Mac developers from Logos 4 to Proclaim. In fact, there's only one Mac developer on the Proclaim team who ever worked on the Mac version of Logos 4. All the others have picked it up as they've gone along—and they've done a splendid job.
I feel a little vindicated for trusting Bob to make the right decisions.
David Mitchell said:There are even members of the Logos 4 team who are making the switch from Windows to Mac
I will not second guess the wisdom of this move either. [:D]
I rest my case.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super Tramp said:
I rest my case.
ST... I guess that's what I find a bit off-putting about your "contribution" to this thread. I take it that they didn't give you a star as an encouragement to be confrontational. I take it that your role as a "starred" member of these forums is to contribute positively towards shaping user experiences and to winsomely represent Logos as an enduser. You're not here to pick fights, to win "cases", or to generally annoy an already frustrated sub-group of users. Frankly, you've taken a tolerably frustrating situation and made it down right annoying. If you weren't a starred/MVP user, I'd just take you to be a forums troll or irrational zealot, which would make it fairly easy to ignore you; however, since you are starred, there's a bit of an implied endorsement on the part of Logos... that's extra frustrating. Why don't you let the Logos badged people represent Logos... they do a much better job.
Well, regardless, congratulations for whatever case it is that you just rested...
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J.P. Poveda said:
Why don't you let the Logos badged people represent Logos... they do a much better job.
I do not represent any official Logos position. If there were no difference between the star and the blue Logos logo, there would be no need for the distinctions.
J.P. Poveda said:however, since you are starred, there's a bit of an implied endorsement on the part of Logos... that's extra frustrating.
So MJD was frustrated with Bob Pritchett's decision to go ahead with the development of Proclaim, based on erroneous assumptions. And you are frustrated with Bob Pritchett's choice not to muzzle the likes of myself & MJD? (In case you are unaware, Bob dislikes censorship of the forum.) And will you next be calling Bob out to account for his choice of how to run his own forum?
Bob has been gracious to most of us who stand on our soapboxes. I am sure several MVPs have caused Logos distress over one issue or another. But in my post above where I cautioned against mistreating someone you love, it was not in reference to Logos the company. I was talking about a real human being that was being disrespected with demands to give an account for what was claimed to be an apparently foolish or selfish decision to develop Proclaim. If you want to be numbered among those who approve of that conduct, that is your choice. But I would defend your mother too, if someone were criticizing her cooking loudly in the grocery store.
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Tramp, Please read the original post. The issue addressed is the difficulty in programming that Bob brought up. There was nothing in the post to say that Logos was junk (that was not even in my mind). But there is a lot of junk software on Windows. Of course, there is some great Windows programming. Furthermore, there is junk software on the Mac.
If you do not program native programs on both platforms I do not care about your uniformed opinion. My question is really for my own information and addressed to people that know how to create native programs on both platforms: is it really harder to program a native Mac program than a native Windows program? Or is the difficulty Logos is having because the Mac program basis is Mono and this provides only limited resources?
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MJD said:
This question was asked specifically to Bob.
Sorry MJD but this is a Forum. Its purpose is to have open public communication. Anyone can read anything you write, and anyone can comment on anything you write. If you would like private discourse with Bob send him an email.
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Halo Hound said:MJD said:
This question was asked specifically to Bob.
Sorry MJD but this is a Forum. Its purpose is to have open public communication. Anyone can read anything you write, and anyone can comment on anything you write. If you would like private discourse with Bob send him an email.
Sorry for bringing this up before reading the rest of the thread. The issue has been discussed and doesn't need my input. I apologize, MJD.
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As a long time Logos user as well, and not a very happy one since the L4 fiasco, will these be fixed in L4 or on the list of promises for L5 which has got to be on the drawing board since it's been over 2 years since L4 was announced and released.
On the subject of Windows parity, I would rather have an app that runs like a Mac app should, fast and reliable, the only windows parity I desire is that it have at least the same capabilities and features but I don't want a windows app on my Mac.
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Phil Mills said:
Please read the original post.
You mean this one that did not mention native programming. I did not take issue with Joe Miller's post at all. As a recent switcher to Logos 4 Mac I lamented my discovery of the differences between L4W & L4M. Luckily I have my Windows platform to fall back on.
Or do you mean your first post in this thread? I only said Logos 4 Mac users were clamoring for parity with the Logos 4 Windows program. If that does not imply a better functioning Logos on the Windows side then I dare say the Mac side is not too clever to demand their program get closer to an inferior functioning version.
Phil Mills said:2. The underpinning of Logos is an orphan
program that tries to enable Windows-type programming run on the Mac and
makes the Mac program sluggish and has much more limited programming
tools.I believe you are referring to an emulator? I recently posted in another thread, "emulators are always slower than running native code." I have run emulators for decades (WINE, game consoles, SoftWindows, MacInDos, and others.)
I used to program for Windows 3.1 thru 2000, Mac Classic OS 6 thru 9, Linux, assembly, Basic, X-base, and REXX. I even studied Ada. I was in MSDN, ADC & OS.2 DC. I programmed various controls and triple-axis robots in General Motors. Unfortunately I lost the zeal for programming and retired in 1998. I never bothered with Mac OS X or anything from .NET onwards. I have never reverse engineered Logos or even looked under the hood so I won't bother sharing my uninformed opinion where it is not wanted.Phil Mills said:If you do not program native programs on both platforms I do not care about your uniformed opinion.
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Phil Mills said:
But I wonder if it is harder because:
1. Mac users demand that programs be done right (the Mac way)
Phil, your post is a bright light of joy in this forum! It makes me smile to to see such love and passion for a platform; it's been a while since the Mac/PC wars here have thrown up such a classic, elegant praise-the-Mac-while-backhandedly-insulting-Windows-users statement. (I'm not mocking, I'm admiring the subtle elegance.)
"Bob, maybe you're right, maybe Mac coding is harder, because it has to be done right, not like the code you write for the simpletons who use Windows, and don't know enough to want things done right."
:-)
For what it's worth, I coded for Mac's before I coded for Windows. But I'm a bit out of date, so I confess I'm reporting what I hear from programmers who may have been polluted by having coded on Windows.
But, let me try a different spin that may make reinforce your pride in the Mac while still explaining my statement:
Microsoft loves developers. Apple loves consumers.
(Or, more accurately, Apple loves elegance, and consumers appreciate elegance more than they appreciate anonymous developers getting love, but that makes for a less elegant phrase.)
Does that help? It explains why consumers rightly love Apple products, but also explains why developers -- who are most certainly not consumer-like in their technical needs and interests -- often find Apple hasn't designed things perfectly for them. It also explains Microsoft's otherwise-inexplicable ability to get broad support for their less elegant platform: they've bought off the geeks who actually make hardware and software products by catering to their geeky (and arguably not-consumer-oriented) needs and desires, for which nefarious payoff we (consumers) all suffer.
All in fun,
-- Bob
PS David Mitchell -- can you share your interface builder story?
PPS Yes, we could have delayed Proclaim indefinitely, and put those resources on the Mac version of Logos 4. That was my call, and I made it while balancing lots of things, including strategy, market expansion, and revenue planning. It may not have even been the right call, but that's how I called it then.
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Bob Pritchett said:
PPS Yes, we could have delayed Proclaim indefinitely, and put those resources on the Mac version of Logos 4. That was my call, and I made it while balancing lots of things, including strategy, market expansion, and revenue planning. It may not have even been the right call, but that's how I called it then.
I'm guessing as a CEO you have a challenge in finding ways to develop new revenue streams while still supporting people like me who have already giving you most of the money we will ever give you. I have a huge Logos library and won't be adding to it very much any time soon (a few books here and there).
Proclaim is one way to do that since it is a subscription model.
Just saying to help explain why this would be done possibly taking away resources (devs) from the bread and butter product (L4Mac).
As a L4Mac users I'm disappointed by this decision. As someone who thinks Proclaim is a very nice solution potentially, I'm pleased with it!
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
David Mitchell -- can you share your interface builder story?
Apple provides a developer tool called Interface Builder. We use it to quickly lay out the major components of our UI, which are then saved in files called "nibs" that can be loaded at runtime.
Up through version 3, Interface Builder supported plugins. Our layout needs are much more complex than what was offered by Interface Builder, so we built a plugin that supported the necessary features, and then we built over 600 nibs that depended upon this plugin.
One day, earlier this year, Apple suddenly released XCode 4. With no warning*, they had rolled Interface Builder into XCode and eliminated all support for plugins.
When we attended WWDC, Martin and I tracked down an Interface Builder developer to ask what the story was. He confirmed our worst fears: plugins were never coming back in a form that will be useful to us.
So now, instead of working on bug fixes, performance, or new features, one of our prized Mac developers has spent countless hours developing a tool that will allow us to migrate away from nibs so that we can all upgrade to XCode 4 (and Lion, which has known compatibility issues with XCode 3).
This is just one of the things that we mean when we say "developing for Mac is harder." Other companies wouldn't dream of removing support for a critical feature without years of deprecation warnings, but Apple did so in a single day.
That being said, was it the right call for Apple? Maybe.
Will dropping support for the feature allow them to build other new, innovative features? Probably.
Is that any comfort to us right now? Not at all.
* Arguably, the fact that Interface Builder never allowed plugins for iPhone was a clue that Apple no longer considered them important, but at the time, I had little experience in reading the entrails of release notes as a means of predicting the future. I'm much more sensitive to such things now, which is why I run a secret, 64-bit build of Logos 4 for Mac on my machine.
David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife0 -
Here's irony for you: I actually am pleased with the decision to support OS X out of the gate with Proclaim. It shows a commitment to multiple platforms that will bleed over into all products. It suggests the possibility that the gap could be temporary. If they had not supported OS X, it would have sent a message that OS X is "too hard" to build new products on and the ROI isn't there. That would bode poorly for the platform for Logos in future versions.
The "Mac tools aren't as mature" and "it's harder to program for" are totally expected AFAIK from a company with years of tools and development experience on windows. C# is a fantastic CLR language with libraries that really enable developers to be highly productive. No question about it. Visual Studio, the CLR and supporting libraries are what has made Windows so developer friendly. Objective-C is a precompiled C. Totally different approach. Cocoa is no WPF. Xcode is... not VS!
All that said, my personal experience says that people are, by far the most productive with what they know. I've worked with developers who use vi who could code circles around people loaded with IDE-based tools. Knowing your platform takes years. The direction of multi platform with essentially identical UI means there's always a translation layer from the reference platform. Think of the windows platform as your hebrew OT... and the mac platform is essentially the LXX... a bible for the language of the consumer, but sometimes has issues with translation choices, different semantic ranges, etc.. So someone doesn't just have to be an expert in Greek/OS X, they need to be good at translation from Hebrew/Win as well. For people who love to develop on the mac platform it is going to be a very difficult sell (as I'm sure it has been with getting some win32 developers to do mac).
For me, the frustration is the apparent lack of attention to the parity issues at the product management and release management levels. KS4J has essentially stepped in to act as the product manager to identify and manage L4M. He's done an amazing job, really... take a look at his work. He (at least I'm pretty sure he's a he?) has consistently caught all of these differences and documented them faithfully. He always makes sure to identify the L4M Uservoice entries that reflect what he sees from the forums. KS4J clearly has a passion and the attention to detail that's just not showing up from the business. Logos should send KS4J on a resort vacation or cruise!
What would "satisfy" me would be attention to KS4J's list. Knock of just one thing every release... and put it in the release notes! Then note what version it was addressed in on the feature parity list... show your work! Shut us up! Tell us what you just are not going to do. Tell us what you're actively working on (but not promising to deliver in a specific release). Tell us what's on the back burner!
To return it back to Joe's rhetorical OP: "Why won't Logos allow developers to prioritize the fixing of critical regressions?"
I don't think that Joe really cares about the why, but instead acknowledgment that these are critical regressions and they're being worked actively. Give us hope!
Oh, and by the way, do Passage List parity first [;)]
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Mike S. said:
What would "satisfy" me would be attention to KS4J's list. Knock of just one thing every release... and put it in the release notes!
Wiki history has version comparison; Logos 4.3 provided reason to remove 6 items from Feature Parity list (compare wiki page versions 73 and 74), including Morph Search transliteration entry, Syntax Search creation, and scrolling issue in Reverse Interlinear. Many Feature Parity list updates were mentioned in Beta release notes, often with links to forum threads about issue.
By the way, my wife often uses Logos 4 Mac. Thankful we have separate Logos libraries with different preferences.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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David Mitchell said:Bob Pritchett said:
David Mitchell -- can you share your interface builder story?
Apple provides a developer tool called Interface Builder.
aaahhh. I was expecting you to say no. That would have been fun!!! :-)
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David Mitchell said:
One day, earlier this year, Apple suddenly released XCode 4. With no warning*, they had rolled Interface Builder into XCode and eliminated all support for plugins.
David - Don't you think that part of this is because Apple expects (does what it can to encourage) its users to upgrade much sooner than MSFT? I mean, there is still a significant portion of windows users on Win XP!
David Mitchell said:which is why I run a secret, 64-bit build of Logos 4 for Mac on my machine.
[:D] It's our secret!
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alabama24 said:David Mitchell said:
One day, earlier this year, Apple suddenly released XCode 4. With no warning*, they had rolled Interface Builder into XCode and eliminated all support for plugins.
David - Don't you think that part of this is because Apple expects (does what it can to encourage) its users to upgrade much sooner than MSFT? I mean, there is still a significant portion of windows users on Win XP!
With consumer-facing products, Apple is generally much less abrupt than they are with developer tools. Consider:
- The iPhone 3GS (two generations behind) can run the latest versions of iOS.
- PowerPC users got a major release of OS X after the switch to Intel.
- Intel machines could run PowerPC apps for three major releases of OS X.
David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife0 -
David Mitchell said:
With consumer-facing products, Apple is generally much less abrupt than they are with developer tools.
I guess that is part of my point. By forcing developers in a certain direction, it moves things forward faster than on the Windows platform. I am sure that it can be aggravating for developers, but it makes things better for Apple's kind of consumer (i.e. the one who upgrades more often).
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alabama24 said:David Mitchell said:
With consumer-facing products, Apple is generally much less abrupt than they are with developer tools.
I guess that is part of my point. By forcing developers in a certain direction, it moves things forward faster than on the Windows platform. I am sure that it can be aggravating for developers, but it makes things better for Apple's kind of consumer (i.e. the one who upgrades more often).
Another thing is that OSX upgrades are considerably cheaper than their Windows equivalents. e.g. moving from Snow Leopard to Lion is only £21 whereas Windows Vista to Windows 7 is well over £100!
However, that doesn't help Logos developers working with a multi-platform product. It's that multi-platform product which gives Logos the parity headaches which other bible-software programs don't have.
Yes, there are several things I would like to see in the Mac version - e.g. handouts. But I have learned so much as the Mac version has been developed that the learning curve has been that much easier than I expected when I switched to Mac just 2 years ago.
Also I would love notes in IOS.
iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8
MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.13.6; 256GB SSD; Logos 8
iPad Pro 32GB WiFi iOS 13.5.1
iPhone 8+ 64GB iOS 13.5.1
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Thank you, Bob, for your comments. They are very helpful. You gave me an "ahha" (spelling?) moment with your statement: "Microsoft loves developers. Apple loves consumers." I get it. The Mac is a harder platform to program on.
I appreciate the thoughtful reply.
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KS4J - you are doing a great job with Logos while simply serving the Body of Christ without expectation of remuneration. You should go to work for Logos as you will be a great asset.
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Rich Davis said:
KS4J - you are doing a great job with Logos while simply serving the Body of Christ without expectation of remuneration. You should go to work for Logos as you will be a great asset.
I couldn't agree with you more Rich! [:)]
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Rich Davis said:
KS4J - you are doing a great job with Logos while simply serving the Body of Christ without expectation of remuneration. You should go to work for Logos as you will be a great asset.
+1 [Y][Y]
__________
15" rMBP 2.6 GHz i7 | 16 GB RAM | 1.0 TB Flash Drive | OS X 10.12.3 | Logos 7.0 (7.3.0.0062)
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You don't tug on superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind, you don't pull the mask off the ole Lone Ranger and, you don't send Smiling 4 Jesus off to work for Logos-smile.
But really: He does do an incredible job of welcoming everyone and helping anyone, he does it with integrity, compassion and honesty.
Thanks Smiling.
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Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
You don't tug on superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind, you don't pull the mask off the ole Lone Ranger and, you don't send Smiling 4 Jesus off to work for Logos-smile. But really: He does do an incredible job of welcoming everyone and helping anyone, he does it with integrity, compassion and honesty. Thanks Smiling.
And notice how KS4J does it all without moving to Bellingham! That should be another reason to consider telecommuting for Mac developers.
Also, if the Mac development team were spread out across the nation (or world) it would be very hard for thieves to target the hardware for a third time. [co] [co] [co] [co] [co] [co] [co] [co] [co]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Rich Davis said:
KS4J - you are doing a great job with Logos while simply serving the Body of Christ without expectation of remuneration. You should go to work for Logos as you will be a great asset.
If Logos does not hire him, they will be making a colossal mistake—assuming he is interested.
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Jack Caviness said:Rich Davis said:
KS4J - you are doing a great job with Logos while simply serving the Body of Christ without expectation of remuneration. You should go to work for Logos as you will be a great asset.
If Logos does not hire him, they will be making a colossal mistake—assuming he is interested.
Interest = passionately YES, however Logos recently choose someone else so personally not moving (yet). Do know move is coming; not know when and where God wants my wife and I to go. Daily praying to be smart and get things done along with praising God's wonderfully positive changes: want to be holy and blameless in His Love always. Thankful for Logos Software (awesome study capabilities), Logos (company), and especially Logos (the Word) loving relationship that includes all spiritual blessings in heavenly places.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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The big issue in all of this for me is the fact that when L4mac was first released the message from Logos was that in no time it would be no different than the win side of things because they are on the same code just different UI (not a programmer don't know what that means.) I just went back and looked at the forums from those days, years ago and I can see where many argued that Mac wouldn't be behind windows for long. Anyway I am so glad I went ahead and put my money back into a PC since all I really use a computer for is sermon prep and here we are well over a year later and still Mac is not up to speed.
I understand there are difficulties in software development, the problem is people bought this software expecting one thing and have gotten another. I have a now 2 year old macbook that I use at home for bible study and using logos to do the simplest of things is so frustrating that I barely use it.
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John Graves said:
I have a now 2 year old macbook that I use at home for bible study and using logos to do the simplest of things is so frustrating that I barely use it.
I can take your frustration off your hands... I'll take it! [No one ever takes me up on that offer]. [;)]
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John Graves said:
I understand there are difficulties in software development, the problem is people bought this software expecting one thing and have gotten another. I have a now 2 year old macbook that I use at home for bible study and using logos to do the simplest of things is so frustrating that I barely use it.
Appreciate frustration, please elaborate about simple items.
Part of impetus for Logos User Voice suggestion => Improve Logos 4 Menu Responsiveness was sluggish response in Logos 4 Mac using 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo (which is faster than 2009 MacBook models). Upgrading to 27" iMac with 2.93 GHz Intel Core i7 noticeably improved Logos 4 Mac usability.
One option is running Logos 4 using Windows on Mac. Wiki Logos 4 Mac => Need Logos 4 PC feature? includes virtualization and Boot Camp. Considering speed of older MacBook models, Boot Camp would be better. Also could upgrade MacBook hard drive to improve performance.
If buying Mac laptop today, recommend looking at new MacBook Air models that are much faster than 2 year old MacBook along with being lighter.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Bob Pritchett said:
It makes me smile to to see such love and passion for a platform
I would love to see the passion at Logos directed more towards completing the Logos 4 Mac platform.
Bob Pritchett said:For what it's worth, I coded for Mac's before I coded for Windows. But I'm a bit out of date
Speaking of out dated, It would be great if you could bring Logos 4 Mac platform up to date like the Windows version.
Bob Pritchett said:Apple hasn't designed things perfectly
One could say Apple isn't the only company falling short on designing software properly.
Bob Pritchett said:we (consumers) all suffer.
Some users suffer more than others.
Bob Pritchett said:Yes, we could have delayed Proclaim
I agree with that thought, you should have have finished Logos 4 Mac Platform before introducing (Proclaim) software product.
Thanks for your response Bob!
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John Graves said:
I understand there are difficulties in software development, the problem is people bought this software expecting one thing and have gotten another. I have a now 2 year old macbook that I use at home for bible study and using logos to do the simplest of things is so frustrating that I barely use it.
Appreciate frustration, please elaborate about simple items.
Part of impetus for Logos User Voice suggestion => Improve Logos 4 Menu Responsiveness was sluggish response in Logos 4 Mac using 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo (which is faster than 2009 MacBook models). Upgrading to 27" iMac with 2.93 GHz Intel Core i7 noticeably improved Logos 4 Mac usability.
One option is running Logos 4 using Windows on Mac. Wiki Logos 4 Mac => Need Logos 4 PC feature? includes virtualization and Boot Camp. Considering speed of older MacBook models, Boot Camp would be better. Also could upgrade MacBook hard drive to improve performance.
If buying Mac laptop today, recommend looking at new MacBook Air models that are much faster than 2 year old MacBook along with being lighter.
Keep Smiling
Simple items such as scrolling in a bible with interlinear view also opening a book etc. I am sure a new macbook might be faster but I will not be buying another one anytime soon. Most of my work is now done on my office pc which is faster at everything than my macbook for about half the price I might add. My 2008 Toshiba runs L4win faster than my 09 macbook. Thanks for the suggestions though.
Edit: I mean my Toshiba laptop and upon further consideration they are about the same when it comes to L4.
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alabama24 said:John Graves said:
I have a now 2 year old macbook that I use at home for bible study and using logos to do the simplest of things is so frustrating that I barely use it.
I can take your frustration off your hands... I'll take it! [No one ever takes me up on that offer].
[:D] Not that frustrating, I'll make do.
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John Graves said:
Simple items such as scrolling in a bible with interlinear view also opening a book etc. I am sure a new macbook might be faster but I will not be buying another one anytime soon. Most of my work is now done on my office pc which is faster at everything than my macbook for about half the price I might add. My 2008 Toshiba runs L4win faster than my 09 macbook. Thanks for the suggestions though.
Edit: I mean my Toshiba laptop and upon further consideration they are about the same when it comes to L4.
Curious about Logos 4 Mac version ? Logos 4.3 has noticeable interlinear scrolling speed improvement (compared to Logos 4.2).
For disk intensive items (e.g. opening a book), upgrading disk drive from 5400 RPM to 7200 RPM can be up to 30 % faster (noticeably faster in many applications). MacSales has Do It Yourself kits => http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/hard-drives/2.5-Notebook/SATA/DIY/
For new ultrabooks, noticed Toshiba Portege Z830 has similar price range as Apple's MacBook Air => http://www.slashgear.com/toshiba-portege-z830-ultrabook-pricing-revealed-03192802/ For entry level model, appears Toshiba Z830 has slower CPU with 4 GB RAM and 128 GB SSD for bit less (~ $ 30) than new MacBook Air with 4 GB RAM and 64 GB SSD with faster CPU (choose speed vs storage). Anticipating more MacBook Air competitors => http://venturebeat.com/2011/10/28/hp-ultrabook/ (noticed Intel funneling $ 300 million into developing ultrabooks).
For 17" laptop, concur with half price comment when comparing Dell Outlet 17" XPS-L702X with refurbished 17" MacBook Pro today.
Logos 4 is resource intensive on Mac & PC – benefits from fast processor, graphics, and disk along with adequate memory (i.e. newer hardware since Logos 4 being designed for use over 5 to 8 years). On Mac and PC, newer hardware does improve Logos 4 usability (albeit some items still feel slow: e.g. opening a Bible that has several Logos Greek Morphology visual filters takes many seconds, then scrolling and jumping to other verses is responsive).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Joe Miller said:
I submit bug reports like everyone else and have no idea regarding timetable. The three issues I pointed out in my first post are ones I have reported over many many many cycles and all I am told is, "they are known issues and are on the list." New features get added, but from my perspective little effort is put into making the existing ones work properlyJohn Fidel said:As a Logos employee, you may be able to find out.
Joe,
As a long time Logos user, and former employee this must be frustrating? I am with you, I don't understand their logic either. Logos knew the availability of qualified Mac developers was virtually non-existent. Why would they spread their developers out even thinner with a new product launch?
I went to the Logos site and looked at the jobs section. Maybe, Logos should give strong consideration to re-thinking there requirement to relocate since it is so difficult to get developers.[I]
"This position is at our offices in the wonderful city of Bellingham,
Washington. We are sorry, but we will not be considering applications
for remote employment or telecommuting."0 -
MJD said:
"This position is at our offices in the wonderful city of Bellingham,
Washington. We are sorry, but we will not be considering applications
for remote employment or telecommuting."Noticed Bob Pritchett's earlier reply on 31 Oct => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/40349/301264.aspx includes:
Bob Pritchett said:We are planning to open a satellite development office near Phoenix, AZ in the next few months to get access to a different and larger labor pool.
Wonder about Snow Bird development ? Summers in Bellingham with Winters in Phoenix (with Spring and Fall migrations between offices).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Bob, not sure why you responded to everything BUT the substance of my original post HERE.Bob Pritchett said:To say we're ignoring the Mac, or aren't committed to the platform, is simply silly
I make no broad-sweeping allegations about L4M being ignored. The guys do a great job & I know that Logos is interested in making money from Mac, so you are not ignoring it. BUT since the existing team is limited, it is clear they have been focused on developing new features, and that means less time to fix simple regressions... you know stuff that worked in one version then stopped working and has not been fixed. Like the one specific example I gave of Headers in the Passage List. This feature worked at one point, it was broken in another release, and it has not been a priority to fix it since that time. This is not even so much about Windows parity, as simply making the Passage List work as advertised so when I stand in front of a group of people to show the Mac version, I don't have to say, "well... this feature works in windows and someday it will work in Mac again."
I am also not asking for grand elegance or "Mac-like" perfection, I simply want to be able to drag and drop my sub-folders in the Favorites and organize my stuff. Pretty basic stuff really. I mean, i can do it in the main folders, just not in the sub-folders so I know it can't be that hard of an issue, right?
My guess is that it is sometimes easier to respond to "outrageous" allegations or paint simple requests as "more of the same", but sometimes what is easier is not what is right. In this case, I am looking at 2 specific issues that I have reported for many development cycles and was hoping to get folks focused on simply asking for that these items be fixed before new features are added.
Thanks.
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Bob, not sure why you responded to everything BUT the substance of my original post HERE.Bob Pritchett said:To say we're ignoring the Mac, or aren't committed to the platform, is simply silly
I make no broad-sweeping allegations about L4M being ignored. The guys do a great job & I know that Logos is interested in making money from Mac, so you are not ignoring it. BUT since the existing team is limited, it is clear they have been focused on developing new features, and that means less time to fix simple regressions... you know stuff that worked in one version then stopped working and has not been fixed. Like the one specific example I gave of Headers in the Passage List. This feature worked at one point, it was broken in another release, and it has not been a priority to fix it since that time. This is not even so much about Windows parity, as simply making the Passage List work as advertised so when I stand in front of a group of people to show the Mac version, I don't have to say, "well... this feature works in windows and someday it will work in Mac again."
I am also not asking for grand elegance or "Mac-like" perfection, I simply want to be able to drag and drop my sub-folders in the Favorites and organize my stuff. Pretty basic stuff really. I mean, i can do it in the main folders, just not in the sub-folders so I know it can't be that hard of an issue, right?
My guess is that it is sometimes easier to respond to "outrageous" allegations or paint simple requests as "more of the same", but sometimes what is easier is not what is right. In this case, I am looking at 2 specific issues that I have reported for many development cycles and was hoping to get folks focused on simply asking for that these items be fixed before new features are added.
Thanks.
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Joe Miller said:
This feature worked at one point, it was broken in another release, and it has not been a priority to fix it since that time. . . In this case, I am looking at 2 specific issues that I have reported for many development cycles and was hoping to get folks focused on simply asking for that these items be fixed before new features are added.
Just wanted to voice my voice on this issue concurrently: the biggest issue for me is the continued disregard of what are clearly bugs.
The Passage List feature is broken on the mac and needs to be fixed: I can quickly find that it was loudly voiced as an issue, no bug back in Feb . . . when nothing is done for well over 8 months after calling out a bug, it's pretty difficult not to feel like there's a real problem here. I know I had voiced it before then as well.
Consider me asking (yet again) that these items get fixed.
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Sorry, Joe... the problem is that I don't know the answer as to why specific bugs/regressions/partiy problems aren't fixed, so I tend to ignore them in my responses. I often don't get to the forum till late at night (like now!) or on the weekend, and I can't just pick up the phone and ask someone why "headings in passage list" aren't fixed. In fact, I'm not sure which team member to ask, so it's the kind of thing I need to walk over to the devs and ask around about.
So sometimes, when I see specifics like that in a forum post, I hope that the Mac devs (usually) reading these threads will jump in and answer the speciifcs they know the answers to.
In this case I'll forward your question along specifically. Because, yes, it seems like fixing things we broke in a build would be an obvious and important thing to do right away. But I just don't know what's going on with this specific issue.
-- Bob
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Wow, that's really all I can say at this point.
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Wow ... Phoenix!!
What a great place for the Southwest Logos Training Center!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I am anything but a fanboy... I have been a Logos user for a long, long time. I can say that with L4 we see much more earnest development than with the "L1" promises that never materialized. I am also a long time accordance user. I, like so many others, am frustrated at times, but at least there is progress. I believe that parity will come -eventually.
What I would like to see immediately is an easier copy bible verses tool. The whole highlight the ref in your doc (regardless of app), hit F12 and then enter and keep writing that Accordance has has spoiled me. Or else a basic word processor built in as with Bibleworks and WordSearch would solve that. Power research tools are awesome and I love to use them, but when it gets down to brass tacks, I am writing sermons, lessons, or studies for use in my ministry. Simplicity and focus in those tasks are key for me. I wish I had a worship team to collaborate with just so I use Proclaim!
All that said - I want to say thank you to Logos for for their Mac efforts. Keep plugging away guys. You have come a long way on L4. We will continue to complain, compare and ask for new features and improvements. I imagine that one platform will always be ahead of the other even after "parity" is achieved.
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Jeffrey S. Robison said:
What I would like to see immediately is an easier copy bible verses tool. The whole highlight the ref in your doc (regardless of app)...
Logos 4 Mac already has a Text Service with Keyboard shortcut => Mac help for Logos so can enter verse reference, optionally using abbreviation => http://www.logos.com/L4/support/biblebookabbrev (with period between chapter and verse: e.g. php4.4) , highlight verse reference, press cmd + shift + E keyboard shortcut to replace reference with passage (from Logos 4 Mac).
Option: can double click keyboard shortcut cmd + shift + E to change (in System Preferences => Keyboard => Keyboard Shortcuts - Services - Text)
Jeffrey S. Robison said:All that said - I want to say thank you to Logos for for their Mac efforts. Keep plugging away guys. You have come a long way on L4. We will continue to complain, compare and ask for new features and improvements. I imagine that one platform will always be ahead of the other even after "parity" is achieved.
[Y]
Keep Smiling [:)]
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