Not a bunch fanboys... We need to be Barnabi (plural of Barnabas)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306000#Comment_306000

Under what sense of obligation do I have to a profit making company that provides a product at a set price in a market with limited competition?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306005#Comment_306005

Under what sense of obligation do I have to a profit making company that provides a product at a set price in a market with limited competition?

Philippians 4:8 [;)]

"Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are honest,
whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are
lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there is any virtue, and
if there is any praise, think on these things." ~The Webster Bible

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306006#Comment_306006

I have read through a lot of the forum, a lot of the forum. There is too much negativity and complaining. We need to be more encouraging to the devs, who are our brothers and sisters in Christ. So I want to say:

Good post Brother Jeffrey.

I am usually more of a barnacle than a Barnabas. I have found many of the developers, sales people and other Logos support staff are very busy working for us and do not get a lot of time to read all the forum posts. Still, this will encourage them whenever they hear of it. Thanks.

Dan Francis

Under what sense of obligation do I have to a profit making company that provides a product at a set price in a market with limited competition?

Philippians 4:8

“For scripture says, ‘You shall not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain’; besides, ‘The worker earns his pay.’” (1 Timothy 5:18 REB)

We deserve to show respect to these brothers and sisters in Christ, and offer encouragement to their work. We need not act like it is all self scarifying work they are doing for nothing, but for many of theses hard working programers, I would bet they are getting less than they might doing something else. Everyone has a place in creation, and deserves to be given honour for their place.

-dan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306006#Comment_306006

What does "truth" have to do with a market driven product produced to maximize their profit at my expense?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306022#Comment_306022

What does their supposed "faith" have to do with the price of a piece of software? Perhaps the "christians" at logos is more faithful in some way then the "christians" at Accordance or Olive Tree?

Alexander

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306030#Comment_306030

Scripture doesn't tell us to be more supportive of one brother or sister over another because of what they provide. We should always be ones besseching God for he well being of others and for their mutal edification. Their being built up also builds us up as we are one body. Nothing wrong with being encouraging here. We can speak the truth (areas that need improvement) in love (with understanding and encouragement). That is how we should act even if they belong to a company. They are people not automotons.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306030#Comment_306030

What does "truth" have to do with

How about just settling for the "lovely" and "praise" parts. You should be glad we have Bible software companies. If you would view the world as people rather than big evil corporations, it is much easier to love them like Jesus Christ does. He even loves tax collectors!

What does their supposed "faith" have to do with the price of a piece of software? Perhaps the "christians" at logos is more faithful in some way then the "christians" at Accordance or Olive Tree?

It is not always about the money, Rene. If it were, the Good Shepherd would have stayed with the 99 and left the lost sheep to die.

At least your posts give some contrast to the others.[8-)] ~praying for you this thanksgiving season.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306034#Comment_306034

That is how we should act even if they belong to a company. They are people not automotons.

[Y]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306039#Comment_306039

The beauty of this "christianized .labeling" of a computer code is that if one criticizes it on religious terms it is a business and if one criticizes it on business terms well then they are a "christian" company serving god by making a profit. If one criticize Logos as a "christian business" well then the critics might no have the love of Christ in their hearts. As if God wastes God's time as part of a special promotion for the Logos brand. I find this spiritualization of a piece of software verging on the edge of being an insult to faith and the Body of Christ imo. I would generally agree with Alexander in terms of how to approach this product and ways to make it better....for not greater reason than I have already soaked too much of my money in it. However, no matter how I feel about the product Christianity has nothing to do with this product other than the subject matter.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306046#Comment_306046

However, no matter how I feel about the product Christianity has nothing to do with this product other than the subject matter.

I was not claiming the Logos company (by being such, can not have a soul to be redeemed) is Christian. I doubt every person that works at Logos claims to be a Christian. They probably have a token "atheist" or two. The original post was expressing thanks for the developers and for the blessing their work has on our spiritual pursuits. It is not wrong to thank a non-believer too if their contribution blesses God's people. Nehemiah certainly appreciated Artaxerxes.

My response above was addressed to you, not to a big evil corporation. I'm sorry if you didn't get it.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Bob Pritchett should post a Logos Employee Appreciation Pizza Party in Community Pricing so we users can express our appreciation for the workers [pi]

afterthought: All those "1's and 0's" that fly through a CPU can be displayed on the screen as sinful pornography or as the precious Word of God. It behooves us to be more discerning when judging computer code. I would characterize some as damnable & some as edifying. Charles Spurgeon would agree.

Jack Caviness

There is too much negativity and complaining.

Under what sense of obligation do I have to a profit making company that provides a product at a set price in a market with limited competition?

[^o)]hmmmmmmmm[^o)]

MJD

We knew that it was a "baby" product in development.

Jeffrey speak for yourself, please don't speak on my behalf!

I have read through a lot of the forum, a lot of the forum. There is too much negativity and complaining.

Jeffrey once again, this may be your perspective...

There are some of us on this forum that have many-many-many dollars invested, and we have a high expectation of service. I don't think you should come in and try your "Johnny-come-lately" approach of standing on the soap box making your declarations.[8o|]

How much do you have invested into the product?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306105#Comment_306105

How much do you have invested into the product?

This strikes me as a very odd question to ask - and one I would refuse to answer. It seems to me that often our misunderstanding come from differences in what we've been taught is appropriate social behavior. It gives our complaints different tones.

Milford Charles Murray

I have read through a lot of the forum, a lot of the forum. There is too much negativity and complaining.

Peace to you, Jeffrey! and Always Joy in the Lord even during distressing times!

Thank you for your post and your good attitude. I for one find it truly refreshing. 2 Thessalonians 3:16

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306142#Comment_306142

If I may be so bold: Theologically, Rene stands on proper Christian Ethics.

Should we be supportive and appreciative towards Logos programmers?

Yes, of course.

Management?

Sure we should, but remember to hold the same views and temperaments about your cell phone provider when your phone does not work or, the bill is wrong. The mortgage company if they make an error on your home loan, the mechanic when you pay for repairs and your car still breaks down and he try's to explain it's now something else.

The point , for me, is this: Logos is a company just like any other company, it just happens to make Bible software and probably has a lot of Christian people working there.

But it is still a company, like any other. The Phone company has Christians that work there, so does the Mortgage company, the Car Dealership, Wall Street, so forth and so on.

As I have said before, it is only in the area of Biblesoftware that I see Christians act as if errors are ok to have, it is in this area I see Christians act far different than they do anywhere else.

I do not see Christain's being so patient and accepting of problems when it comes to their Home loans, car repairs, other purchases, cell phones, electric company mistakes in billing etc.

I have never heard a Christian tell people to just be patient and supportive about other products that do not perform as advertised. Again, how many people would just accept a brand new refrigerator if the freezer only worked "at times" and tell all their friends: well, I am just being supportive of all the people working at Frigidair and I know they will fix it eventually?

Most would not do so.

Thus, Ethically, whatever ethic one is going to apply towards Logos, they should apply everywhere, otherwise one can end up being a "respecter of persons" due to a hypocritical ethic that allows for great patience with one, but not allowing the same for another.

In my opinion, what we should be doing is:

Encouraging the Programmers and appreciating that they are probably doing their best.

Let the company Management know that it is "NOT OK" to advertise a product with defined performance attributes that does not perform at that level.

Let the company know that we expect value, we expect excellence, we expect what we paid for, a properly working product.

There is nothing unchristian about expecting excellence or expecting to get what one pays for.

Lastly: It is always, always, dangerous to become a negative enabler, it is always a thing of danger to make excuses for (people, companies etc.) to buffer chronic mistakes/failures.

It is never Love to make excuses for (people, companies) rather than confront the issues.

I do not ( and cannot ) blame the Logos Programmers, would agree to appreciating their hard work as I appreciate anyones hard work. The problem is a Management Problem.

Logos released a product that was not ready for prime time and, did not tell people this is not a fully functional product, that's the problem, the whole problem.

If Logos had stated one was buying a pre-release product , prone to issues, and that the timeline for finishing was undetermined, then no one who made the purchase would have anything to complain about.

As far as I can see Logos advertises this product as a fully functioning software for the Mac.

As such, all customers should be able to expect a fully functional stable software ( within reason-nothing is perfect). Feature Parity is not the issue as I never saw anything claiming that ( though could be wrong- didn't even know what the Windows features were-smile).

The issue is not programers, the issue is management.

Thats where my prayers will be focused on this issue.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306105#Comment_306105

Jeffrey once again, this may be your perspective... There are some of us on this forum that have many-many-many dollars invested, and we have a high expectation of service. I don't think you should come in and try your "Johnny-come-lately" approach of standing on the soap box making your declarations. How much do you have invested into the product?

I will tell you the same I told Rene a few posts above:

It is not always about the money, Rene. If
it were, the Good Shepherd would have stayed with the 99 and left the
lost sheep to die.

There are many of us in the same ballpark with you on Logos resources, some are way ahead of us (a certain user buying $10,000 in one month comes to mind.) It is about the people [Z][Z][Z]. Logos employees are people [Z][Z], Logos customers are people [Z][Z][Z][Z]. Jeffrey is a "people [Z]." Each just as much a "people" as you [8o|] and Rene [:@] .

While Jeffrey doesn't speak for everyone in the Logos family, He would get more votes for Forum Spokesperson than you, Rene & myself put together.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306105#Comment_306105

How much do you have invested into the product?

I own the Portfolio Base Package and more add-ons than I would like to admit. I have been a Logos customer since the early 90s. I have purchased several thousand dollars worth of books over the years.... Besides that, I use it every single day and I have for years. I don't think that i am a

"Johnny-come-lately"

. I think that I have enough invested to share my opinion. If you would read my post, you would see that I was not speaking For anyone other than myself. However, I was encouraging others to release their bitterness as I have.

I put myself through seminary working as a programmer writing code for a large corporation. I know what I used to get paid. I also know the stress of the job. I believe that we will get more accomplished praying that God give them wisdom to use their knowledge and experience to solve the problems, swash the bugs, and add new features than pontificating about what they ought to do and in what order. I am sure that the programmers at Logos could make more elsewhere in the information on demand market. I am grateful for their giftedness and their willingness to do this job in the same way that I am grateful for musicians, authors, and other ministers who share their abilities with the rest of the world.

It seems that those who are angry, like you (MJD), do a lot more

standing on the soap box making your declarations

than I did. My original statement was more from a kneeling position than standing on a soapbox.

That said, I have a confession to make. Until today, the Logos Mac developers were not on my prayer list. I use Logos everyday... everyday. And I have failed to thank God for them. Today I am correcting that. I for one, am going to pray for them and try to encourage them.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306165#Comment_306165

Well said Jeffrey. [:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306160#Comment_306160

The issue is not programers, the issue is management.

Maybe that is your issue Charles. But I would be dishonest to join your picket line. I am very happy with Logos management and the product I receive from the company. I have always been shown the greatest courtesy by everyone I've interacted with. You and I live in different worlds when it comes to Logos. I'm sorry your world does not satisfy, wish you could cross the picket line and see how good it is in my world.. So much for Solidarity!

[:D]~Matthew UAW Local 699, UAW Local 1999 retired dues paying member in good standing AFL-CIO

MJD

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306160#Comment_306160

I have never heard a Christian tell people to just be patient and supportive about other products that do not perform as advertised. Again, how many people would just accept a brand new refrigerator if the freezer only worked "at times" and tell all their friends: well, I am just being supportive of all the people working at Frigidair and I know they will fix it eventually?

Great analogy Fr. Charles, you hit the core of the issue! [I]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306160#Comment_306160

I have never heard a Christian tell people to just be patient and supportive about other products that do not perform as advertised. Again, how many people would just accept a brand new refrigerator if the freezer only worked "at times" and tell all their friends: well, I am just being supportive of all the people working at Frigidair and I know they will fix it eventually?

True - but to my mind you are missing what is to me the major consideration. When I get a product that is sub-standard, I first go politely to the seller and request a refund or exchange. I may tell close friends about the failed exchange but I don't try to incite others to anger ... nor speak badly of people who were satisfied.

If I don't get satisfaction, I threaten (with full intent to follow through) to go to the appropriate authorities - insurance board, BBB, eBay ... or up the chain in the company. This has resulted in being one of three people a particular company made restitution to. If the problem makes it appropriate, I may provide polite, accurate negative feedback on a website.

No matter how unhappy someone is with a purchase, they have no right to complain about those who are satisfied or to get angry at people who point out that their expectations were contrary to the information available at their time of purchase.

Complain as much as you wish to those who have some ability to correct the situation. Post once your particular complaint. But don't insult other Logos owners for their opinions. We all know that Logos (a) released a product that was less ready for prime time than many of us would have preferred (b) Logos provided a list of missing features with expected release dates that were overly optimistic (c) that there is a wide divergence among users as to what it the most critical problem to be resolved (d) that we can use L3 rather than L4 if it better suits our purposes (e) that Logos has a reasonable refund policy which we could have taken advantage of (some still may) (f) that if we moved to or purchased L4 and remained on it past the refund period, we bear some responsibility for our current status - we can't blame it all on Logos.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306165#Comment_306165

Jeffrey ... I think everyone got confused ('everyone' being myself), when they saw what looks like 'books' behind you, in your picture.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306193#Comment_306193

Jeffrey ... I think everyone got confused ('everyone' being myself), when they saw what looks like 'books' behind you, in your picture.

I still use books too... [:D]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306193#Comment_306193

Jeffrey ... I think everyone got confused ('everyone' being myself), when they saw what looks like 'books' behind you, in your picture.

I still use books too... [:D]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306178#Comment_306178

I have never heard a Christian tell people to just be patient and supportive about other products that do not perform as advertised. Again, how many people would just accept a brand new refrigerator if the freezer only worked "at times" and tell all their friends: well, I am just being supportive of all the people working at Frigidair and I know they will fix it eventually?

Great analogy Fr. Charles, you hit the core of the issue! And, then they start a new company selling a different widget before the first one is fixed! Bravo

It is hard to compare software with hardware products.

Anyway... I think that many of you are missing the point. The point is that we should pray for the devs. I never said that we had a perfect or complete product. I am updating on the beta channel and it is stable, very stable for beta. Issues are being resolved. When I upgraded to L4, the sales staff were very forthright with me about the product. All I am calling for is simple.

Praying accomplishes more than complaining.

If you are having crashes... send log files.... and pray.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306200#Comment_306200

Oh Dear: Did not mean to sound ugly, was not my intention-at all.

My intention was just to affirm two things:

1. It is good to pray for and appreciate the hard work of the programmers, as is true for all hard working, honest folks.

2. It is also good to expect something to work as advertised and when it does not, to be able to say so. There is nothing wrong with that either.

Yes, one can just return the product, which is something I am considering on my end.

I am trying to give it every chance, have done all that has been recommended , have talked extensively with tech support ( lovely people btw ).

I also do not think it wrong to say the advertising is (at the least ) somewhat misleading.

Listed are the specs for the needed computer, but when coming to the forums one hears: you need a faster more powerful computer.

I'm sorry, that is not what is advertised, but of course, a faster computer does most things,,,faster.

I did not find listed that the software had "known issues, some of which are pretty old known issues", I did not find it stated the software was not complete in programming.

I am not being critical of that "just to be critical" , just believe management should have made a different decision on that issue. I know they were under pressure to release and, it would be hard to state "this product has flaws" and feel good about where sales would be. They probably felt like these issues would be resolved much more quickly than they have been-it happens.

I do appreciate that Management has posted about several difficulties and that Programmers have tried to help with "workarounds" and such.

Very Appreciative of "Keep Smiling" for his tireless help.

This product has a lot of potential, but also, at this time, has a lot of flaws- that is simply a fact that is well documented by users and Staff alike, thus I have not posted anything untrue.

Again, was not trying to be ugly, mean or anything of like nature.

Just wanted to affirm what Rene was stating : It is not the customers responsibility to make excuses for the products issues and, affirm support and appreciation for those working on the product itself.

Both can be true.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306208#Comment_306208

Both can be true.

Understood.

Andrew Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306210#Comment_306210

I only have 1000 resources so am
probably not qualified to comment but I will anyway:

I think Logos 4 is fantastic. It helps
me with my Bible Study and is helping me to become more Christ like
(although I have such a long way to go). Thank you Logos, you are
doing a great job.

From a very satisfied customer.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306236#Comment_306236

I think Logos 4 is fantastic. It helps
me with my Bible Study and is helping me to become more Christ like
(although I have such a long way to go). Thank you Logos, you are
doing a great job.

[Y]

Ralph Mauch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306200#Comment_306200

I think that many of you are missing the point. The point is that we should pray for the devs

Praying accomplishes more than complaining

[Y] Been a Logos user from the beginning... thanks for speaking your heart, I don't think I've prayed enough for the company, much less the devs/programmers (as I use this software daily without much thought about that). And good for you for staying positive, must have had a good breakfast [:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306236#Comment_306236

I only have 1000 resources so am
probably not qualified to comment but I will anyway:

1000 resources is 990+ more resources than most pastor's around the world have available to them. 1000 resources is plenty... 1 resource is plenty to speak out. Few, if any, remain single purchase users. Most of us build our digital library over time and the no interest payment plans have made that more of a possibility than ever. Every user, regardless of the number of resources or experience using the program, is welcome to join any conversation that I am a part of.

Thanks for you comment.