community pricing - ? manipulation?

The classic commentaries on Matthew don't allow us to bid below $50. If this minimum price does not go down, and even if it does, this looks to me like manipulation. Other sets have gone for $40, or even less. If we all bid $50, it will close at $50. If we could bid lower, we might get a peak at a lower price.

Logos, is there some good reason that I haven't understood why you are doing this?

What does anyone think?

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Matthew C Jones

The classic commentaries on Matthew don't allow us to bid below $50. If this minimum price does not go down, and even if it does, this looks to me like manipulation.

It does look intentional.

What does anyone think?

The only logical reason I can imagine is Logos has a great number of resources slated for the Community Pricing program and it takes less orders at the higher price to get it into Pre-Pub quicker. So they start the graph at $50 and drop the units if it progresses quickly. In other words, maybe they are manipulating the time the resource sits in the CP program. I don't know if this makes sense or would not backfire. This is just my wild imagination.

NB.Mick

The classic commentaries on Matthew don't allow us to bid below $50. If this minimum price does not go down, and even if it does, this looks to me like manipulation. Other sets have gone for $40, or even less. If we all bid $50, it will close at $50. If we could bid lower, we might get a peak at a lower price.

Logos, is there some good reason that I haven't understood why you are doing this?

What does anyone think?

Maybe it was a typo (50 instead if 5). I seem to recall there was even one book when it looked like it would settle on the left-most price point, Logos moved the scale and it went further down.

There has been some statistic flying around somewhere over here claiming experience that most CP titles close at one third of the given price range. Thus, setting the range will give a very strong indicator for where the price will come out to be. Maybe Logos tries to prove or disprove this theory - or they believe already in it and hope to achieve a higher price level. Maybe not only on Matthews, but overall - if the sets for "high profile" biblical books go for 40 to 50 USD, what can they expect for e.g zechariah?

I bid 50 (hoping it comes further down) and won't bid higher on this

Ronald Quick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306237#Comment_306237

I don't know the details as to how it works, but I have seen the CP prices go lower than what has been originally the lowest possible bid.

Rick

I was wondering why the Revelation Classic Commentaries are so much higher than the others just a couple of weeks ago. Then I took a look at the page counts. It may be that since some include so many more pages and tags and whatever else Logos does to get them into Logos format, the the sheer volume might be the reason.

Revelation: Over 12,000 pages. Has held at $160 since I can remember even though an effort to make it $50 has made a small difference in the graph.

Ephesians: Over 8,000 pages is showing $40

Leviticus: over 4,000 pages is at $30

Matthew: Matthew: 9,000 pages at $50

So I can see a correlation between page count and price but am wondering if they are averaging the amounts of pre-orders from past bids on the same series and are guesstimating that this is the lowest price that they can produce it based on the past numbers and orders of the Classic Commentaries series. This would be my guess.

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306259#Comment_306259

So I can see a correlation between page count and price but am wondering if they are averaging the amounts of pre-orders from past bids on the same series and are guesstimating that this is the lowest price that they can produce it based on the past numbers and orders of the Classic Commentaries series. This would be my guess

Rick, the early bidders on the Revelation Classic Commentaries started bidding high, and most people seemed to follow. It takes less people bidding on the high end of the scale to put a collection/resource into production than those who bid $50.00. So, unless the $160.00 bidders drop their bids to $50.00, or we have an influx of new bidders at the $50.00 price, it will close at $160.00.

Michael

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306278#Comment_306278

I too was disappointed to see the Matthew series of the Classic commentaries premier with the lowest bid possible being $50, especially in light of the fact that all the other sets in the "Classic Commentaries" have moved very quickly in CP in the $30 to $40 price range (with the exception of Revelations).

I would think that actual page count of the resources wouldn't matter, since CP is designed to meet the "production costs" and not dictated by page counts.

Rick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306278#Comment_306278

Thanks Lynden. I had not noticed and am still figuring things out,such as the initial pricing graph, even though I understand the concept of how it is beneficial for me[Y]

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306284#Comment_306284

CP is designed to meet the "production costs"

True. Page counts are one element of those costs, so:

actual page count of the resources wouldn't matter

False.

I do not have any insider knowledge about CP or the creation cost of Logos books. It would seem to me that some books are more complicated and time consuming to create than others. Page counts are merely one element, albeit an important one.

It seems to me that Logos sets up these CP in such a way that both:

interest will be created
the project can be completed

If Logos started the pricing out at $1, a $30,000 project would take 30,000 users. If Logos thinks that's doable, then why not? On the other hand, they may feel that 600 users might be interested in it for $50, but probably more likely 300 for $100. In which case the bidding would start at $50. [I have no idea how much the production costs might be. $30,000 seems high, but what if it takes an employee the better part of a year to complete the project? In other words, my numbers are pure speculation].

Martin Horn

I am disappointed. I am on a very limited budget, and I cannnot pay 50 dollars for a commentary collection.

It feels like the price on the Matthew collection is being manipulated, and this doesn't match with the line "you set the price."

Martin Horn

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306290#Comment_306290

i guess it seems clear that Logos has "sold" CP sets for lower than the minimum. And it seems like they are NOT looking for sneaky ways to make us pay more. Page count matters as far as related to the cost of production, so do things like the complexity of the text (footnotes, references, etc) That said, I doubt they care whether 30,000 by it at 1 or 1 buys it at 30,000 (Super Tramp).

Still, if a bid grid option doesn't show lower than $50, and the current successful bid IS at $50, I still think that some might be dissuaded who'd go no higher than $40 (for instance). That could result in less people bidding and increases the chance that the price will not go lower than $50.

I wonder if Logos can have someone monitor those graphs and change the options if it looks like set is going for the minimum price--so that it may go to even more people at a lower price. Yep, that would mean extra work for them, and they don't benefit any more for it than if they sell it to fewer people at a higher price. But, I would like them to consider that option, if my above musings are correct.

Also, they could redo their algorithm and make lower price options from the start.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306293#Comment_306293

I am disappointed. I am on a very limited budget, and I cannnot pay 50 dollars for a commentary collection.

It feels like the price on the Matthew collection is being manipulated, and this doesn't match with the line "you set the price."

Martin Horn

yeah, having a limited budget is rough. I have one, too. we sure have to pick and choose what we want. I'm wondering: regardless of the fact that we all would like it to go lower than $50, if this is a set you really would like, would this help your situation: CPs don't get produced right after they are taken off CP offerings. Often they are released several months down the road. If you bid on it for $50, all you are doing is locking in on the price, before it goes higher. You will still have, say, 4 months (who really knows, could be 3, could be 8) to save $50, about $12.50 a month. If you don't have enough money when it goes into production, you can always cancel--they notify us via email before it goes into production.

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306290#Comment_306290

Peace to my Logos Forums Brothers and Sisters! ... and Always Joy! *smile*

I have benefited greatly from Community Pricing over so many years. What a blessing!

It is unfortunate that someone just starting with Logos at this point in time will never ever have that same opportunity, unless Logos (we hope!) has some remarkable sales in the future for them. ALL of us should be happy when that happens.

Yet, however; "it is what it is!"

People born at a certain time benefit greatly from those who have gone before them -- or benefit their successors. "It is what it is!"

I have been chose to follow Jesus and today I need by the Holy Spirit again to say, "He is Lord!"

Also, "today" can also be a favourable time for many wonderful things including Community Pricing! *smile*

Those of you who have not bid, please think about it.

Because what CAN be is a different matter entirely! I just checked my own personal bidding in Community Pricing and noticed that I have bid on EVERY ONE, except the one about Southern Presbyterian doctrine. *smile* [The James Henley Thornwell Collection (10 vols.) contains 4,400 pages of rich history and Southern Presbyterian doctrine.]

And, indeed, what can be is that if large numbers of Logos users would also bid on these potential resources, the price would go incredibly low.

Now is a favourable time, indeed! *smile*

Michael

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306290#Comment_306290

actual page count of the resources wouldn't matter

False.

I do not have any insider knowledge about CP or the creation cost of Logos books. It would seem to me that some books are more complicated and time consuming to create than others. Page counts are merely one element, albeit an important one.

It seems to me that Logos sets up these CP in such a way that both:

interest will be created

the project can be completed

If Logos started the pricing out at $1, a $30,000 project would take 30,000 users. If Logos thinks that's doable, then why not? On the other hand, they may feel that 600 users might be interested in it for $50, but probably more likely 300 for $100. In which case the bidding would start at $50. [I have no idea how much the production costs might be. $30,000 seems high, but what if it takes an employee the better part of a year to complete the project? In other words, my numbers are pure speculation].

I disagree. The production cost is the production cost, regardless of page count. It may cost X amount to produce a resource with a thousand pages and it may cost the same X amount to produce a resource that has 5 thousand pages. Page count is a moot point. As I understand it, CP is designed to cover production costs, that it. Now it may very well cost more to produce a 5k page resource than a 1k page resource, but the opposite may be true as well.

JMHO

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306318#Comment_306318

Page count is a moot point.

Hey Michael! Hope this doesn't come across too contradictory. Just wanted to point out that it doesn't seem to be a "moot point," but at least is correlated to how many references, etc. need to be tagged/linked on each page, etc. If there are one thousand more pages in one resource, than another, and those have many labor intensive things to do, it will raise the cost. Or, seen from another stand point: say a resource of 500 pages with much linking and tagging might cost more than book of 3000 pages with no tagging. Tagging/Linking is the common denominator, but page count is also relevant to the cost.

Peace.

Paul N

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306325#Comment_306325

I'm with Dan on this one

*sigh*

...[:P]

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306328#Comment_306328

Given that a single bound book commentary can easily cost $50 today, I don't see this as manipulation. It's a substantial amount of work to produce this set. The Morison volume easily fetches more than $20 even on eBay. And Broadus is long overdue.

If there's any complaint at all, it's that we're just shy of having McNeile on the Greek text included as a public domain book. Maybe the Logos team can shoehorn it into the collection. I'm fortunate enough to have it in print, but everything is more useful in Logos.

nicky crane

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306328#Comment_306328

STOP PRESS! minimum bid on Matthew has gone down from $50 to $10. Thank you, Logos! I'm in at $30!

Incidentally they gave us an extra week on the James Isaac Good collection, which reached production price before midday on Wednesday if I am not much mistaken. This is generous!

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306296#Comment_306296

I'm wondering: regardless of the fact that we all would like it to go lower than $50, if this is a set you really would like, would this help your situation

First, I personally feel $2 per volume is a fair price to pay for books in Community Pricing. However, the original concept of Community Pricing is to let the Community "price" the resource. If Logos chooses to limit the minimum bid amounts to $2 per book, how about putting a bid ceiling on the graph also? The disproportionately higher price of the Revelation commentaries is detrimental to attaining the groundswell of support needed to progress to Pre-Pub status. I have suggested before the CP bid increments should start at $2 and we may see a huge increase in participation. I am still interested in the Matthew set at $50 but will not buy the Revelation set at $160. At the rate of $50 per set and 66 books of the Bible we will pay $3300 for a complete collection of Classic Commentaries. Hmm. That should sell Denise on it. (She said all good commentaries cost $3000 or more. [*-)])

CPs don't get produced right after they are taken off CP offerings.

That is usually the case but I believe the Classic Commentaries & Studies on Genesis left Community Pricing and three weeks later was shipping. (I may be off a week.)

Edit: With the new lower bid increment added to the graph, most of our concerns are now moot.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306354#Comment_306354

how about putting a bid ceiling on the graph also?

interesting idea. And, as you have noted that the minimum has decreased, that is good.

With something like Revelation set, set so high because of increased costs: how about making it into two collections . . . Revelation Collection A and Revelation Collection B. (or maybe "alpha" and "omega."). Each set would not be set so high, seem so high, and would likely get more bidders.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306366#Comment_306366

how about making it into two collections . . . Revelation Collection A and Revelation Collection B. (or maybe "alpha" and "omega.").

All or nothing Dan, All or nothing.

Michael

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306325#Comment_306325

Page count is a moot point.

Hey Michael! Hope this doesn't come across too contradictory. Just wanted to point out that it doesn't seem to be a "moot point," but at least is correlated to how many references, etc. need to be tagged/linked on each page, etc. If there are one thousand more pages in one resource, than another, and those have many labor intensive things to do, it will raise the cost. Or, seen from another stand point: say a resource of 500 pages with much linking and tagging might cost more than book of 3000 pages with no tagging. Tagging/Linking is the common denominator, but page count is also relevant to the cost.

Peace.

You said what I was trying to say but better. Tagging is the key to the production cost.

Wild Eagle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306345#Comment_306345

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