Now that the sale is live, I wonder what you all think of it?
#mce_temp_url#
The numbers for the master bundle don't add up. I'd like to see a comprehensive list of its contents.
Hi Super Tramp!
I haven't been afraid of your brass knuckles... I've generally always appreciated your posts, even the few times I have disagreed! I've taken the more "brass knuckle" parts of your posts to be humor!
I agree 100% that there are many perspectives, and that no one perspective may be right on "disputable matters". Paul had a lot to say about our loving approach to others in such cases. Each should make their decision in faith, and be convinced in their own mind, and not judge their brothers or sisters if the Lord leads them to another perspective. It isn't for us to judge another man's servant. I of course am not speaking about issues of doctrine.
But I do think someone needs to raise the question that maybe we need to examine things a little bit from a more eternal perspective.
The Word also teaches that God has given us all things to enjoy, and our hearts should be thankful for that with which He has blessed us. If we use what He has provided with thanks and joy, that pleases Him.
Yet we also live in a very materialistic culture, one that has increasingly pervaded the church, parachurch organizations and even Christian businesses. It is good and right for a Christian business to make a profit. At the same time, how they do so, and the degree of profit, is something the Bible addresses extensively.
So the marketing approach being taken sometimes concerns me. There s no definitive boundary unfortunately, for when we cross the line into encouraging the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life. That makes it very hard to speak about these issues, due to the difficulty of defining when the line has been crossed. That is an individual thing. But perhaps we should really be asking more searching questions of how this is affecting us personally.
Marketing in general concerns me from a Christian perspective. It has a legitimate place, but most marketing exceeds that in my experience, to creating a desire where there was not a desire previously, and a fanning of discontentment. These things are not godly, and we cannot help but all suffer from it to some extent living in our culture if we are honest. I have seen Logos moving more in that direction and it concerns me.
A case in point is that made repeatedly by Michael. The "retail" price is a gimmick and is fundamentally dishonest. A retail price is the normal price at which someone sells something. No one in the world sells the resources at the retail prices Logos lists. In many cases, Logos has developed the resource itself (such as public domain books), so the retail price is truly based on a myth. A sale is a reduction from the normal price, and is of a temporary nature. Playing with words as Logos is doing is not the kind of straightforward talk we are enjoined upon in the SCripture. It is inherently deceptive and dishonest and is a marketing gimmick. I really wish Logos was not adopting these worldly methods. Just because it is Marketing 101, does not make it right. I understand and support that Logos must stay in business. But if they are doing so by adopting less than strictly honest means, is it not right to call this into question?
I love Logos and the people there, and know that their hearts are true. But sometimes we are too close to something to see it, and we all have our blind spots.
And I will emphasize again, that every dollar I spend in Logos is a dollar I choose to deny to something else. And there are times that is right. And others, maybe not so much. And I was just trying to encourage us to think a bit more seriously about those lines.
And at the same time, rejoice with those who are enjoying the sale and the resources they have been blessed to receive!
I looked at the deals and there is nothing that interests me that I don't already have. I know there are always people who are unhappy that they don't get the max. benefit from a sale. I don't want to be one of them. But with Logos' current sales strategy long-termers who have already spent a lot of money on Logos resources consistently get the least rewards.
Armin
I have the impression that Logos tries to attract new people to buy Logos software (15% for new ones but not for Logos users) and to make a lot of money by convincing us that "You are making a great deal" BUT the truth is that the offer must be a response to the demand.
Sure. Logos is a business and they need to make money to pay for programmers, customer service staff, rooms, servers (and Bob's thanksgiving turkey as well).
Thus, they need to sell their products, meaning base packages to new customers and resources - the more the better - to existing customers.
Sometimes a little bit of user demographics is revealed on the forums. I seem to recall that most users buy a base package and that's it. For these users, to get big bundles of the great products outside the base packages (or at least ouside portfolio) is a very good deal - especially since Logos bundled recent scholarship, not the old PD stuff for the Black Friday sale.
I'd be glad someone explain to me how Logos tries to respond to Logos Community real demand.
Well, I think, Logos caters to their big user base's demand more than to the demands of the many forum regulars that buy a lot of resources each month. And that's okay.
It would've been nice if they had added a small-price offer like "buy one resource that is normally $50 or less for 50% less" to help those users that are less well-off than the capitalists who finance the whole thing. Maybe Christmas is right for that. And they put four free books on Vyrso.
I wish LOGOS would list 3 prices when they offer a sale of any kind. 1. The "Suggested Retail Price," 2. The "Regular Logos Price," and 3. The "Sale Price."
It's frustrating when we are offered a product that is 80% off, only to find out that this is off of the "Suggested Retail Price," and that the reality is the sale is on a few dollars less than the "Regular Logos Price." Before you ask, no I'm not referring to any specific Logos product, just their pricing in general.
[Y]
Imagine how difficult it would be for you to predict the future if you were in Bob's chair. The circular reality of it is that you MUST decide how best to generate revenue because the business/ministry requires a burn rate commensurate with the demands of supporting the existing platforms as well as developing new releases that add features. You'd have to attract new Logos customers, but most importantly, you'd have to continue to attract your existing customer base (your proven cash-cows) back to the proverbial well. The formula is something like: NO CASH = NO LOGOS MINISTRY
Hence we see proven marketing strategies employed to inform, delight, and romance us into making additional purchases. We buy more and reap the benefit! Logos keeps the lights on, development continues apace, and support improves (and again, we reap the benefit!).
Now, the fact is that none of us (except Bob) sit in Bob's chair. Bob is responsible, not us. We feel it is our responsibility to browbeat the Logos staff for virtually every decision/sale/bug/feature/pick-a-topic that comes out of the corporate office. I dunno... if I were Bob, I'd probably be a little worn down about now and feeling a little discouraged.
I concur that "Playing with words" marketing strategy as Logos is doing is not the kind of straightforward talk we are enjoined upon in the Scripture. The marketing price gimmick sometimes misleads the customer.
We all love logos and their people ^ ^ I pray that they will keep earning money and be the light in this e-ministry
I wish LOGOS would list 3 prices when they offer a sale of any kind. 1. The "Suggested Retail Price," 2. The "Regular Logos Price," and 3. The "Sale Price." It's frustrating when we are offered a product that is 80% off, only to find out that this is off of the "Suggested Retail Price," and that the reality is the sale is on a few dollars less than the "Regular Logos Price." Before you ask, no I'm not referring to any specific Logos product, just their pricing in general.
This is getting better. I recently received a mail flyer from Logos, and it clearly laid out the different prices, as in "$x.xx off of the list price, and $x.xx off our normal sale price". With a further explanation of something like: "you will save $x.xx more than our regular sale price"
I was pleasantly surprised that it was not deceptive in anyway. Good show, I say [Y]
Does anyone know what the regular Logos price is for the A.W. Tozer Collction?
I agree with the pricing issue. It is annoying to see a % off when the product NEVER sells for the retail price. I think most, here at least, are aware of this and there is no benefit to Logos. If there are people out there who are being taken in by this practice and believe they actually are getting 80% off, or whatever, then the question becomes one of ethics. Were I running this company, and believe me no one wants that, Bob does an amazing job, I would never even post the retail price. I would post the highest price the product ever sells for as retail.
Having said that I love Logos and can't begin to fathom how people ever made it through seminary without it, and some still do! I too find all the Black Friday sales uninteresting but that is preference. How many of you will walk into Best Buy or Wal-Mart today and say "But I wanted the HP i7, 12GB, 1.5TB laptop to be on sale?" It is up to the company what they put on sale and up to us to buy it or not, not to spend all day lamenting the fact that our wanted item is not on the list.
How many of you will walk into Best Buy or Wal-Mart today and say "But I wanted the HP i7, 12GB, 1.5TB laptop to be on sale?" It is up to the company what they put on sale and up to us to buy it or not, not to spend all day lamenting the fact that our wanted item is not on the list.
But I wanted that MAC Book Pro 17" fully loaded to be on sale for $599
I agree with the pricing issue. It is annoying to see a % off when the product NEVER sells for the retail price.
I completely agree. I don't feel mislead, but rather it is a practical issue. If I don't buy in this sale, I need to know exactly how much it is going to cost me on Tuesday at the regular price which is never the full price. I can sometimes find this information on cached website pages, but not always. [:(]
But the point does remain ... you pastors need to remember your kids! While they were busily ignoring you, some day they'll want to listen.
Thanks for the advice Denise. Will come in handy when/if mine start to ignore me.
Hey everyone, finally I guess I'm going to get some help to get the Reference Bundle (39 volumes).
My question is : The description says that "You’ll also get important collections like the 16-volume Theology and Doctrine Collection, the 7-volume Early Church History Collection, and the 5-volume Eerdmans Bible Reference Collection", why then, these are not in the list below the Description? When are they shipping ?
Funny thing, before the "big box" lifestyle took over the world, every major purchase was a matter of dickering back and forth.
I still remember my uncle in Sears, years ago, buying a washing machine, and how him and the salesman kept writing numbers down on a little piece of paper until they came to a mutually agreed upon price.
But the same thing holds true here today, if you form a relationship with a Logos sales person...
Good question Fabrice.
I looked at the listed titles, the actual book descriptions, and then the collections. I couldn't get the numbers to add up. Chances are there's overlap between the three groups.
Absent being a trusting soul, you have today and Monday to query Logos customer service (assuming that's do-able)?
Michael, today I just got another catalog from C-Company. I bought 1 book from them (I think; I don't remember) and now I receive the 'preferred customer' catalog (which was just days after the smaller but apparently 'regular' customer mailing).
Anyway, out of curiousity while eating lunch, I jotted down their 'retail' price vs what they're calling they're 'preferred price' (which looks very similar to their regular price a few days back).
Anyhow .... I was going to do a reasonably sized sample just to see how Logos compares to C-Company (the latter being paper books).
I didn't get far before I quit (using what's called 'Discovery Sampling'; I used to do bunches of samplings, with the Discover method designed for laziness).
I compared Pulpit Commentary, Shaeffer's 5-volume (BF sale for Logos), MacArthurs NT Commentary, Babylonian Talmud by Neusner .
Don't want to violate the forum guidance rules, but in a nutshell, it's hard to say who is more interesting. On two, they literally matched within pennies (both retail and 'real' price). On the third, Logos 'retail' was well below C-Company's 'retail' (though higher than C-Company's real price). Logos 'real' price however, was lower than C-Company's 'preferred' price (!)). And on the fourth, Logos 'retail' price was far higher than C-Company, with the Logos 'real' price being substantially higher than C-Company's 'preferred' price (which I think is appropriate given Logos' heavy cross-referencing).
This is all obviously confusing, and maybe that's the goal. I stopped at 4 items having concluded that actually 'saving money' probably wasn't reflected in either company's marketing copy. Each proposed purchase would have to be researched.
On the BF sale, I agree that access to Logos' 'regular' price was needed. On Lenski, I relied on Logos' inclusion and Matthew's assurance it was a good price. I sure better see a higher price on Tuesday or Santa's going to hear about Matthew being on the 'naughty' side!
why then, these are not in the list below the Description?
Black Friday Reference Bundle $399.95 includes these individual resources and all bold-faced Collections below:
Early Church History Collection (7 vols.) $115 complete and includes all 7 of the following:
Eerdmans Bible Reference Collection (5 vols.) $89.95 complete and includes all 5 of the following:
Theology and Doctrine Collection (16 vols.) $209.95 complete and includes all 16 the following:
On Lenski, I relied on Logos' inclusion and Matthew's assurance it was a good price. I sure better see a higher price on Tuesday or Santa's going to hear about Matthew being on the 'naughty' side!
[6] Santa already knows I am naughty. I looked at my invoice for Lenski on Feb 13th 2011 and see I paid $20 more than the Black Friday sale price. If memory serves me well, the regular selling price of Lenski in February was $299. I do know it was a good deal at $119.99. So I would guess Lenski will bounce back up to around $280 or higher. To me, the Lenski set is the best value outside of the Master Bundel. I have too many of the undle contents to make it tempting. If I did not have Lenski already, that is the one I would go for. Just sayin' .....
Yes ... your numbers sound right. I've no plans for a call to the North Pole to double the naughtiness report.
But on the BF Reference bundle, I count 35 in your list. But '39' listed as volumes in the advert.
I know EncyChristianity is 5 volumes but then ISBE is multivolume too. I didn't try the others; I could easily be wrong.
It looks like the Tozer collection sold for $399.95 previously. So it's effectively a saving of 53% compared to its regular price.
To check an earlier price on Logos, do a search on Google for the resource and look at the cached image of the page:
Oh okay, thanks for the explanation Super Tramp, it helps of course. I just didn't make the link between the "Theology and Doctrine Collection" and its individual titles ... but now I got it! :-)
Btw how is it that God and the Future: Wolfhart Pannenberg's Eschatological Doctrine of God is $156 for ... 288 pages !? and Aquinas on Doctrine, $168 for ... 296 pages !? What is so special with these that they are so expensive?
Aquinas on Doctrine is my favorite example of quirky pricing. It is super-expensive on it's own. I got it with the 2010 Christmas Master Collection for an average book price of $1.35, (I think.) It is one of those scholarly works that is priced like that on Amazon for the paper version. Could be a licensing issue. [8-)]
I just didn't make the link between the "Theology and Doctrine Collection" and its individual titles ... but now I got it! :-)
It would make it a lot easier for myself and Praiser if Logos would list the included Collections. I process information in sets. Logos does a very good job at grouping similar titles into specific categories, creating new "Collections" and bundles..
The Dead Sea Scrolls Study Edition: Vol. I: 1Q1–4Q273–Vol. II: 4Q274–11Q31 $89.95 is actually two resources but not divided by volume number as you might think. In my library there is the "Transcription" resource and then the "Translation" resource.
I'd find the others but I keep getting pulled away from the computer.
Does anyone know what the regular Logos price is for the A.W. Tozer Collction? It looks like the Tozer collection sold for $399.95 previously. So it's effectively a saving of 53% compared to its regular price.
The Black Friday Sale price is lower than the Pre-Pub price when this first shipped! [:|] I gave $192.95 for it on May 29th 2008. So if you want sales based on original Pre-Pub pricing, buy it so Logos brings us more.
I guess the old saying "A bargain is only a bargain if you can afford it," applies here for me. I'm passing this year. The bottomless wallet some forum users seem to have still amazes me.
The
The bottomless wallet some forum users seem to have still amazes me.
Amen!Amen!Amen!
D
Michael, today I just got another catalog from C-Company. I bought 1 book from them (I think; I don't remember) and now I receive the 'preferred customer' catalog (which was just days after the smaller but apparently 'regular' customer mailing). Anyway, out of curiousity while eating lunch, I jotted down their 'retail' price vs what they're calling they're 'preferred price' (which looks very similar to their regular price a few days back). Anyhow .... I was going to do a reasonably sized sample just to see how Logos compares to C-Company (the latter being paper books). I didn't get far before I quit (using what's called 'Discovery Sampling'; I used to do bunches of samplings, with the Discover method designed for laziness). I compared Pulpit Commentary, Shaeffer's 5-volume (BF sale for Logos), MacArthurs NT Commentary, Babylonian Talmud by Neusner . Don't want to violate the forum guidance rules, but in a nutshell, it's hard to say who is more interesting. On two, they literally matched within pennies (both retail and 'real' price). On the third, Logos 'retail' was well below C-Company's 'retail' (though higher than C-Company's real price). Logos 'real' price however, was lower than C-Company's 'preferred' price (!)). And on the fourth, Logos 'retail' price was far higher than C-Company, with the Logos 'real' price being substantially higher than C-Company's 'preferred' price (which I think is appropriate given Logos' heavy cross-referencing). This is all obviously confusing, and maybe that's the goal. I stopped at 4 items having concluded that actually 'saving money' probably wasn't reflected in either company's marketing copy. Each proposed purchase would have to be researched. On the BF sale, I agree that access to Logos' 'regular' price was needed. On Lenski, I relied on Logos' inclusion and Matthew's assurance it was a good price. I sure better see a higher price on Tuesday or Santa's going to hear about Matthew being on the 'naughty' side!
Denise,
As always you bring light where there was only heat. Thanks for going to the trouble.
I feel certain that Logos marketing only follows the secular pattern, which means they are deceptive. I understand that companies aren't Christian. People are. But Christians in business should not allow the world to set the standard for their honesty. It is a poor witness to be deceptive, whether everyone else deceives or not. Logos is no more, and sadly no less, deceptive than any other company, including other Christian book sellers.
I also believe that Logos is a company founded and owned by fine Christian people, who run it both as a business and a ministry. I have been a Logos customer over 16 years and will be one for the rest of my life. I do not think they set out be deceptive in their advertising and promotions. I think they slipped gradually into deceptive practices that are the rule of thumb in their industry. I do not believe they have thought through the implications of it all.
Since I have been a Logos customer so long and have invested thousands of dollars beyond my base package, I am not likely to go away. And since I am incredibly hard-headed and a little arrogant, I am not likely to stop complaining if I believe deception is being attempted. But I will try to do so less frequently.
I continue to recommend Logos to my fellow ministers and church members as the best Bible software available. Though I now have to warn them to watch out for the deceit in the advertising.
I let my sales person at Logos figure out how to apply my recent book purchases to anything redundant in the Master bundle. I'm indexing now on one box and downloading on my other. Other than a couple of pre-pubs that I'm signed up for, I think that pretty much will mean "Just say no" for awhile.
I feel certain that Logos marketing only follows the secular pattern, which means they are deceptive. I understand that companies aren't Christian. People are. But Christians in business should not allow the world to set the standard for their honesty. It is a poor witness to be deceptive, whether everyone else deceives or not. Logos is no more, and sadly no less, deceptive than any other company, including other Christian book sellers. I also believe that Logos is a company founded and owned by fine Christian people, who run it both as a business and a ministry. I have been a Logos customer over 16 years and will be one for the rest of my life. I do not think they set out be deceptive in their advertising and promotions. I think they slipped gradually into deceptive practices that are the rule of thumb in their industry. I do not believe they have thought through the implications of it all. Since I have been a Logos customer so long and have invested thousands of dollars beyond my base package, I am not likely to go away. And since I am incredibly hard-headed and a little arrogant, I am not likely to stop complaining if I believe deception is being attempted. But I will try to do so less frequently. I continue to recommend Logos to my fellow ministers and church members as the best Bible software available. Though I now have to warn them to watch out for the deceit in the advertising.
You (and others) have used some strong, harsh and (in my mind) inaccurate language about Logos and their marketing.
1. I do not believe that Logos has not thought through their marketing approach.
They have been at this for a long time. They are astute business people and understand how standard business practices operate in the modern world. Most products go through several hands before reaching the retail customer. Each step requires a margin for it to be able to operate. It is a long established business standard that a manufacturer's suggested retail price (MSRP) is set for products as a uniform reference point.
Can you imagine the confustion if there were no MSRP on products? Some items sell for full MSRP almost without exception. Some have temporary sale prices (reductions from MSRP). Some limited availability items actually are sold for more than MSRP.
The original print publisher establishes a MSRP for their titles. Logos uses this as a standard reference. If you were to buy the print version, instead of an electronic version, the MSRP would be $XX.XX. Most bookstores sell at that price. If you are looking for an out of print title, you may have to pay more than MSRP. Online and discount stores may have the title for less.
I often see in this forum, customers referencing online discounters' prices as if they were the standard. They are not the standard. They are the exception.
2. Fortunately for Logos customers, Logos often has titles for less than MSRP of the print edition, while also providing the added benefit of added Logos features. Logos also frequently is able to offer temporary pricing that is less than their usual price. Each customer has to determine what the item is worth to them. If it is worth the price offered, buy it. If it is not, don't.
3. I agree that the buying decision is easier when Logos shows us all 3 prices (MSRP, the usual Logos price, and the sale price).
We should be careful in judgment of the motivation and intent of Logos. They are a vaulable resource to thousands in ministry around the world.
Hi Edwin!
Thanks for your post... I believe it adds to the discussion and the thought process. I wouldn't necessarily respond, except that I feel there may be an error in what some of us "intend" to be saying about others, and also that the primary point still is being missed.
I agree that we should be "careful in judgment of the motivation and intent of Logos." That being said, I don't think that is what anyone intends to do. I hope I have bent over backwards in my posts to express quite the contrary. Please reread them. I can certainly affirm that is not what is in my heart, and I don't think that is in the heart of others.
Your reply itself speaks volumes to me, and I suspect to others. "They are astute business people and understand how standard business practices operate in the modern world." If "standard business practices" operating in the modern world are our standards, then may God help us! We should be wiser than such standards, and more honest than those standards.
And that is precisely the point. I have been, at one time, a Christian businessman, and I do understand the issues. And we are held to higher standards than the practices operating in the modern world. And sometimes that means I have to forgo certain practices that might bring in more sales or increase my profits, even if they would be considered perfectly ethical by the world at large. Pragmatism (in the sense of "what works to increase our sales") is not supposed to be our guide here.
What Logos is doing would most certainly not be considered unethical from the perspective of modern business practices. But I believe, with Michael and others, that there has been a subtle yet perceivable drift to embrace modern marketing strategies. And some of those are (albeit in my strong opinion, unintentionally) deceptive. It actually grieves me more that fewer people are able to discern that, even in forums filled with pastors. I think both the drift and the lack of discernment are a sign that the Church at large has fallen increasingly asleep. These days, such approaches have pervaded the Church at large, the pulpit, worship... and Christian business practices. We have become desensitized to it, and they seem to be embraced too readily, without discernment.
Your arguments do make sense from a "modern business" perspective. However, some of the strength of the argument is lessened by the fact that Logos sets the price, for example, of public domain works.... that cost them nothing but their own labor/in-house expenses... which we are told are fully paid for through Community Pricing. To then set such a high "MSRP" on these items later as if that was a valid reference point seems unwarranted. Also, while as a businessman, I might try to recoup a larger profit margin for certain items to compensate for those that have a small profit margin in order to balance out my business and to continue operating (a legitimate practice), that doesn't mean that I should try to recoup that difference all at once. :-) [I'm speaking here of public domain CP items, e.g., that jump from $20 at the close of CP to a $300 "discounted price" and $500 or more "retail", when expenses were theoretically met at $20... even allowing for the "value added", that seems quite a jump, especially when available elsewhere for free.].
As a businessman, the MSRP I set has to have some basis in reality.... they are not chosen willy-nilly, but are based on market realities. I can't put a knick knack on the shelf and say, "I'm gonna put a MSRP on this puppy of a gazillion dollars." If nobody anywhere prices a MSRP for the same or a similar product at the same gazillion-dollar level, maybe we are just deluding ourselves, but in any case its not honest. We all seem to recognize that with the telemarketing/television ads or vacuum cleaner sales people we encounter, and we don't like it when we are at the receiving end of such hype and hyperbole. Why is it somehow deemed more straightforward and honest here? Just because they are Christian books, from a company run by Christian people? And then to say "My discount price of $ X is a 70% discount from the (gazillion dollar) MSRP!! So you should buy this!" is really fundamentally deceptive, and rather insulting to one's intelligence... neither of which are tacks encouraged by Scripture. And to say that this latter price is close to or less than what a competitor would charge doesn't negate the deceptiveness if the competitor isn't normally charging, or at least referencing, at or at least somewhat near the same mythical MSRP. And if Logos is the only one who even sells the item, it becomes even more questionable. Add to that to say later, "SALE!!! Now our product is at price "Y", representing a "savings" of 90%! Get it quick!" Savings from what??? It isn't a "savings" if no one anywhere pays such a fictional amount. It's actually only a "savings" of 20%. Not 90%. And if you don't buy, well then the price will go back to its original (20% higher) price when the sale is over. Otherwise, why not just price everything at a million dollars per volume, and then say that our "discounted price" is only $20... a savings of 99998%!!! And furthermore, we are going to offer a special "sale" for this weekend only, where you can actually "save" $999,990? WOW WHAT A DEAL!!!!!!!
Its not done because that would be too obvious, the game would be up. People would catch on to the gimmick, be offended, and not buy.
Can't you see the manipulativeness and deceptiveness in all of this?
But as I have tried to say so many times, its okay to have a different perspective. But would it really be that difficult, to simply make a few adjustments? Maybe some of us ARE overly and unnecessarily sensitive about this area. Okay. We will own that if you like. Nor do we question others motives or intents. But we do feel the PRACTICE is less than honest at best and manipulative/deceptive at worst, and that it isn't a very good witness (which is something we know the company cares about... they claim to anyway, and I take them at their word. So we are merely trying to express how they are coming across to some people in light of such stated concerns made by the company, for which they have encouraged our feedback).
Words mean what they mean, and we can't choose to make them mean what we want for our convenience (or to manipulate, even unintentionally). Let's not engage in word play or juggling the numbers to make things look or seem better than they really are, and that you are getting a better "deal" than you really are. That's where we see the dishonesty coming into play.
SO.... Here's what I propose, for what its worth. Why not simply change the "retail price" to "Suggested value"? That isn't disputable. That is honest. If Logos "values" the books at that price, fine. That is perfectly within their rights. (They can even choose to put an astronomical amount on their product "value" if they choose, although we also have the right to think that they are living in LaLa Land a few fries short of a happy meal. And those who take that approach usually don't last in business very long. "Value" has to be based on reality... reality is what something actually sells for, not what I wished it sold for.) But in any case, it isn't a genuine "retail" price, so let's not call it that. Then, what they actually charge on a day-in, day-out basis can be listed as "our price". And don't add the fantasy of "56% savings!" from a mythical retail value that neither they or anyone else retails it for. A "discount" means a reduction from the standard selling price... whatever games modern marketers chose to use. There is no "discount" involved, because the actual selling price is what it is all the time. Just be straightforward and honest and say simply "this is our price." Then when you do have an actual "sale", you can legitimately call it a sale... and then legitimately say "a savings of..." or "a discount of..." because its TRUE. And those of us with overly active consciences will feel better. Very little effort, and no harm done.
Would there be less sales for Logos this way? I rather doubt it. If there is resistance to using terminology that way, then that should be a red flag.
In any case, I support Logos' right to market how they want to market their products, and to price them how they wish. I am thankful for their vision, their character, and their product, and pray God's blessings upon them however they chose to respond/not respond to these concerns. I also support everyone else's right to have a different perspective or level of scruples on this debatable issue. As a customer, I'm also entitled to express my concerns, especially as this feedback has been invited and encouraged. I do not mean to insult or offend anyone, or judge anyone's intentions, motives, or Christian character, the nature or extent of their spiritual maturity, their salvation or their relationship with Jesus, or the moral character or ancestry of their mama.
With sincere love, grace and gratitude intended to all. Amen.
The MSRP debate has come up a number of times. For the end user, it's a pain to try to remember what it sold for the last time you looked at it. Yet, I doubt Logos is going to change this model as this has been going on for many years now. I had not been able to find the price of the Tozer collection, so I really appreciate the poster that did that.
I do think one thing I hope Logos knows though both through this forum and purchases being made is that the offerings they have made during this Black Friday Sale have been good. I was really pleased to see the Spurgeon Collection go on sale for not much more than the original prepub price. Much could be said about the other offers depending on your needs and interests. For loyal users, this gives an opportunity to pick up resources that you may have missed the first time around and I hope they keep doing this.
Btw how is it that God and the Future: Wolfhart Pannenberg's Eschatological Doctrine of God is $156 for ... 288 pages !? and Aquinas on Doctrine, $168 for ... 296 pages !? What is so special with these that they are so expensive? Aquinas on Doctrine is my favorite example of quirky pricing. It is super-expensive on it's own. I got it with the 2010 Christmas Master Collection for an average book price of $1.35, (I think.) It is one of those scholarly works that is priced like that on Amazon for the paper version. Could be a licensing issue. I just didn't make the link between the "Theology and Doctrine Collection" and its individual titles ... but now I got it! :-) It would make it a lot easier for myself and Praiser if Logos would list the included Collections. I process information in sets. Logos does a very good job at grouping similar titles into specific categories, creating new "Collections" and bundles..
Aquinas on Doctrine is my favorite example of quirky pricing. It is super-expensive on it's own. I got it with the 2010 Christmas Master Collection for an average book price of $1.35, (I think.) It is one of those scholarly works that is priced like that on Amazon for the paper version. Could be a licensing issue.
Those two resources (Pannenberg, Aquinas, and all in that particular collection) are from a publisher where every individual title is generally high-priced as they publish specialized works of somewhat limited interest (check the titles in print on other sites and you will the new prices are often high). The first one (hc) sells new at $180 (used about $70), though there are paperbacks out that are cheaper. The second is $165 new (hc) and $120 used; pb is almost $40. [Which suggests yet anoter question; is the retail the HC or the PB version?] So feel free to research - if you only need one or two in the series, you can probably do better with paper - but you lose the Logos integration. For me, shelf space is another issue.
Since theology is my primary discipline, I have bought some of this set at academic conferences when I could get academic discounts for print editions, but the Logos collections of these are actually very good deals as they bundle a bunch of expensive books and make them available at the price of several in the set. If you are interested in relatively technical and academic works, these might be of interest. But they are specialized. I already bought this set myself (on Logos Academic discount) and considered it a very good deal. Which makes the current deal less attractive....
You (and others) have used some strong, harsh and (in my mind) inaccurate language about Logos and their marketing. 1. I do not believe that Logos has not thought through their marketing approach. They have been at this for a long time. They are astute business people and understand how standard business practices operate in the modern world. Most products go through several hands before reaching the retail customer. Each step requires a margin for it to be able to operate. It is a long established business standard that a manufacturer's suggested retail price (MSRP) is set for products as a uniform reference point.
My brother, I am sorry you feel that I "have used some strong, harsh and (in my mind) inaccurate language about Logos and their marketing." You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I respect that. But I have say you are just wrong.
In fact, I have been very mild to use the term "deception" instead of "lie", and I have given specific examples of what I consider to be deception. You are the expert on your opinion, and I am the expert on my opinion. And in my opinion they have clearly been deceptive.
It is not the publisher that requires them to give a false % of the discount in their sale advertisements. That is silly. You are right in saying, "They are very astute business people," and deception in advertising sells. I would prefer them to be more honest in their advertisements as to the amount that the every day price has been reduce in a sale, and certainly not make it difficult to find out.
I also affirm that Logos is a great company, and its deceptive practices are pretty much standard operating procedure in the world. I just wish their "righteousness exceded that of the other scribes..." I am not impressed that others do it, too.
I believe Logos is the best Bible software on the planet, and I believe that the company is overall operated as both a business and a ministry. But I really don't like the way they mislead on the % of discount in sales.
I do not apologize for pointing out the turth that Logos practices deceptive advertising. And I am very likely to do so again, even as I order more Logos products.
We will just have to agree to disagree on this. But I hope you had a great Thanksgiving!
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I respect that. I do not apologize for pointing out the turth that Logos practices deceptive advertising. We will just have to agree to disagree on this.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I respect that.
I do not apologize for pointing out the turth that Logos practices deceptive advertising.
We will just have to agree to disagree on this.
I always find it interesting when someone presents their "opinion" as "truth." Not only demonstrates a certain lack of objectivity, but also a definite lack of wisdom... in my opinion.
Back on topic, as a lay-person in ministry, I still long for the type of bundles that were part of the original "Library Builders" packages several years back, parts of which, like the College Press NT Commentaries and the IVP NT Commentaries were discounted a bit this holiday season. As a result, I had to pass on this year's offerings (so far), as well, but do very much appreciate Logos discounting these bundles REGARDLESS of which benchmark one uses.
Steve R.
Golly, Steve! Do you really mean to imply that you hold opinions that you don't think are true? Why hold them? Must make for some interesting moral and epistemological gymnastics... ;-)
(please don't be offended... it is sincerely intended merely as a bit of humor... Although I do feel you got a bit personal towards Michael, which seemed a tad unnecessary as he was expressing his opinion about a company's business practices, and not a particular individual's integrity. But don't worry. It's only my opinion. So I wouldn't want to suggest or imply that it might be true. Let's make a deal. If you won't judge my opinions as being truth, I won't judge yours to be either, okay?)....
Sincere best wishes in Christ, brother!
Golly, Steve! Do you really mean to imply that you hold opinions that you don't think are true?
No offense taken! (Seriously!) Actually, Emile, I've expressed my opinion on Logos marketing approach before, sometimes in stark difference to their chosen method at the time. I just believe that there are very few situations where there is one right way of doing things in marketing electronic books (or anything else), just as there aren't in other areas of life, such as raising kids or worshiping God, (though good/better/best opinions abound). There are clearly wrong ways of doing anything, but there are many valid, effective ones. I express my opinions and I welcome others to express theirs with sincere mutual respect. However, to the point of my initial response to Micheal's statements, I also feel strongly that believers, especially, should be very careful about dropping the "t-word" in a dialog such as this, as knowing the truth about another person's actions and the motives behind them (and lets be honest, Michael is directing his comments to the people who make up Logos, not just to a "company") in pretty much any scenario seems, to me, somewhat presumptuous if not downright unwise.
Michael, Emile, et al - When it comes to your opinions, express away (although preferably humbly, constructively and to the people who can consider and correct any error in their judgment first). I will! But, please consider this: If a person doesn't want to get hung up on the word "truth" here, (in this discussion forum among a group primarily comprised of fellow followers of Christ), where else might they have similar challenges?
For what it's worth. Enjoy the day, Brothers & Sisters!
Added: Bottom line, it's not the "observations" that some people make regarding something Logos has done, as I sometimes agree with them, but the broad, general "conclusions" (the "truth") that are drawn from their perspective without knowing all the facts, the history and/or the people involved that concerns me. Nuff said! (My sincere apologies if this has been unconstructive to the dialog and/or if I've taken this thread further off topic.)
I need to know exactly how much it is going to cost me on Tuesday at the regular price which is never the full price.
I have the regular selling costs for the Reference Bundle. These are not "suggested retail" costs. If this helps I can work the other bundles and post them.
Reference Bundle Black Friday Sale pricing $399.95 Tuesday's pricing $1133.55
Individual titles:
$13.95 A Student's Guide to Textual Criticism of the Bible $79.95 Ancient Near Eastern Texts $44.95 Dictionary of Christianity in America $9.95 Historic Creeds and Confessions $129.95 International Standard Bible Encyclopedia$89.95 The Dead Sea Scrolls Study Edition: Vol. I: 1Q1–4Q273–Vol. II: 4Q274–11Q31$349.95 The Encyclopedia of Christianity, vols. 1–5
************************************************************************************Early Church History Collection (7 vols.) $115
$29.95 A New Eusebius: Documents Illustrating the History of the Church to AD 337, 2nd ed.$33.95 Creeds, Councils and Controversies: Documents Illustrating the History of the Church, AD 337–461, New Edition$13.00 Worship in the Early Church$16.00 A Short History of the Early Church$34.00 The Religious Context of Early Christianity: A Guide to Graeco-Roman Religions$29.99 New Testament Times$6.48 Meet Paul: An Encounter with the Apostle
Eerdmans Bible Reference Collection (5 vols.) 89.95
$50.00 Old Testament Survey: The Message, Form, and Background of the Old Testament $9.95 A Basic Bibliographic Guide for New Testament Exegesis, 2nd ed. $18.00 God's Plan of the Ages: A Comprehensive View of God's Great Plan from Eternity to Eternity, 3rd ed. $14.00 The Last Things: An Eschatology for Laymen $9.95 The Making of the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible
Theology and Doctrine Collection (16 vols. $209.95
$156.00 God and the Future: Wolfhart Pannenberg's Eschatological Doctrine of God$168.00 Aquinas on Doctrine: A Critical Introduction$180.00 Faith in the Millennium$156 Forgiveness in Context: Theology and Psychology in Creative Dialogue$32.95 Captured by the Crucified: The Practical Theology of Austin Farrer$72.00 Ascension and Ecclesia$41.95 The Gift of the World: An Introduction to the Theology of Dumitru Staniloae$72.00 Justification: The Heart of the Christian Faith$84.00 Barth's Moral Theology: Human Action in Barth’s Thought$72.00 The Shape of Pneumatology: Studies in the Doctrine of the Holy Spirit$49.95 Naming the Silences: God, Medicine, and the Problem of Suffering$72.00 Creatio Ex Nihilo: The Doctrine of ‘Creation out of Nothing’ in Early Christian Thought$70.00 Resurrection$84.00 Studies in Early Christology$72.00 The Future as God's Gift: Explorations in Christian Eschatology$72.00 The Doctrine of Creation: Essays in Dogmatics, History and Philosophy
I would be tickled pink if Logos would give me 50% off the 26 volumes I do not yet have. That should give Logos enough profit margin. The current Black Friday collections are discounted 80% or better. I doubt Logos will give any credit for what we already own. They would not do so on the 2010 Christmas Collections. Still, a $294 sale is better than none. I hope Michael Bellai is not counting on something that will not happen.
Reference Bundle @ $399 is not attractive to me because I have all but 4 of the titles. That makes the missing volumes cost me $125.90 (at regular sales price) 4 books averaging $31.45 each
New Testament Bundle @ $329 is not attractive to me because I have all but 6 of the titles. That makes the missing volumes cost me $127 (at regular sales price) 6 books averaging $29.33 each
Old Testament Bundle @ $499 is not attractive to me because I have all but 16 of the titles. That makes the missing volumes cost me $335.88 (at the cheapest regular sales price) 16 books averaging $21.00 each
Master Bundle @ $999 is not attractive to me because I have all but 26 of the titles. That makes the missing volumes cost me $588.78 (at regular sales price) books averaging $22.66 each
Hey Carl Sanders, thanks for your time explaining to me why it is so costly. So it's the publisher who sells it so expensive. Well that's very strange ... I don't see the interest in doing so.
Concerning the Logos Academic discount, could you (or someone alse) tell me what are the differences with normal prices? I do have the Academic discount but can't see the real big deal actually. The Expositor's Bible Commentary I want to get is the same price as the normal price (about $125). So how does it come that the current deal is less attractive than the Logos Academic discount?
These days, such approaches have pervaded the Church at large, the pulpit, worship...
SO.... Here's what I propose, for what its worth. Why not simply change the "retail price" to "Suggested value"? That isn't disputable. That is honest. If Logos "values" the books at that price, fine. That is perfectly within their rights. (They can even choose to put an astronomical amount on their product "value" if they choose, although we also have the right to think that they are living in LaLa Land a few fries short of a happy meal.
Super idea! I will use my frequently over-estimated influence to get the Logos VP of Marketing
to change MSRP to "Suggested Value." And you are right, ridiculous MSRPs will not help sales.
Zondervan is responsible for how expensive their products sell for in Logos. It is negotiated with the licensing agreement. Some other publishers do this too. They will limit how low Logos can go and then allow other software vendors to sell it cheaper. This is also done by several third-part publishers. Don't get mad at Logos for not meeting those sale prices. If that practice becomes abusive you will notice the resource drop from Logos.com. Several titles that used to be listed are no longer to be found. Logos would get few sales and a lot of public criticism of Logos for being "greedy" for their pricing. And the offending company gets free exposure for their product. See if you can find all those cheaper-than-Logos products still listed in this website.
Concerning the Logos Academic discount, could you (or someone alse) tell me what are the differences with normal prices?
For humor sake I show you two examples of Academic pricing from JourneyED :
This one saves you 4 cents. The next costs you 95 cents more than retail, WoW!
Academic pricing is also frequently set by the Publisher rather than the retailer. It is my understanding Logos Academic pricing is usually a flat 25% of the regular selling price; 35% off base package if your school requires you to buy it. I also believe it is limited to accredited Bible colleges & Seminaries. I don't believe it is extended to non-accredited colleges or distance learning. If it were, I would be buying there sometimes. The super sales (like Black Friday Bundles and the 2010 Christmas collections) are often much better than Academic pricing. If a person has access to Academic rates, available funds, and patience for sales to come around, they can get a Logos library for a big savings off MSRP (or soon-to-be-called "Suggested Value" if EmileB and myself are successful [:P]
EmileB ... I really enjoyed your (lengthy) discussion on Christian behavior. Well done.
In the discussions, I notice there seems to be a 'divide' of what should be expected for Christian businesses and 'secular'. I wonder where that idea came from?
I spent a career with a large retailer, ending up as an executive, speaker at large retail conferences, etc. First, the folks that populate retail are quite often Christians; they have the same goals. And secondly, the discomfort with 'marketing' is very often palpable within these companies.
The reason is simple.
People know what 'misleading' means. Inside companies. Outside companies. Christian companies. Non-Christian companies.
Michael's discomfort is no different than in boardroom discussions I've sat in on. Honesty is honesty. The expectation is the same for all humans.
Would everyone agree with EmileB's idea to change "Retail Price" to "Suggested Value?"
If so, you can cast a vote or three for the Logos UserVoice suggestion HERE under Change "Retail Price" to "Suggested Value"
If we really want to fix this "problem" cast three votes. Better to light a candle than to keep cursing the darkness.
SERIOUSLY?!
We are taking precious time arguing about semantics of advertising? No, really? I understand if it was theology and we were talking about defending the TRUTH. I think we have much bigger fish to catch (Mt 4:19).
in any case, here are my .02:
According to Alexander Elder "price reflects the consensus of value of all market participants at the moment of transaction." Basically, sellers and buyers are entitled to their own idea of what price should be, however biased or deceiving. BUT, if a buyer is not willing to buy, That "price" or MSRP or OUR price, or Walmart's Everyday Price or ..., it does not matter. You can call it a SALE or a DOG, it has no meaning.
Logos is a business. It is a good business. It is a good business operating in a very tough market and in a very worldly culture. Arguing about what we call "the OTHER price" is akin to a homeowner arguing with a neighbor about sky's color when his house is on fire.
Do we get upset that Rolls Royce chooses to price their cars a little higher than BMWs? Of course not. The whole matter is the Point Of Reference and I believe we got it all wrong. Point of reference should be the "value to me now," which is subjective. So if price goes from $30 on CP to $300 on Pre-Pub and to $500 everyday price, what right does ANYONE have to judge how much LOGOS put in their pocket? Is a title worth it to me at $500? if yes, than its former price of $30 should not concern me. If no, than again, its former price of $30 should not concern me.
if a title is offered at $15,000 and it is 99.999% off, is it worth $15,000 to me now, irregardless what we call a (fictitious) regular price?
Yes Vladimir, 'seriously'.
Very good post [Y]
However, I did cast 3 precious votes for ST's UserVoice entry on pricing. Perhaps that would diminish this never-ending debate.
I thought you guys were serious. Don't tell me I actually bothered to write the suggestion and cast three precious votes for your complaints just to discover none of you really meant any of it. [:@] Are y'all afraid of Dan Pritchett actually burning your straw man, causing a scramble for a new "ethics" issue to complain about?[:^)]
If you don't vote on change, don't bother complaining anymore. It makes you look like the majority of US voters complaining about the President when they all were too lazy to visit the polls.[:#]
As for the .02c; I strongly agree with you. If a buyer chooses to pay $4290 for Portfolio Edition, what should we care? I give buyers a little more credit. If they are intelligent enough to read theological works,they can probably do the math about the percentage of discounts. I can do the math quicker than I can open Calculator, and I'm no Astrophysicist.
ST ... I REALLY appreciate what you're doing. And in the last few months, your help to others has been outstanding. Far better than anything I conceivably contribute.
But the issue we're talking about is apparently personal; some see a problem while others don't. I'm a member of the former, and I've periodically spoken up on the forum. To me, the issue is obvious. If Dan agreed he'd fix it. He's no dummy. Clearly he's part of the second group. I can't see how a vote means anything to him. Maybe a pickiness-ratio or something.
Now, I also don't do any of the other voting either. To me (again), if the Logos were reasonably using their own product, I've no doubt they'd see the problems long before us. Alternatively on arguable issues, others needs are fine by me.
Again, I do appreciate you trying to go forward. Ditto for Jack (not sure about his Navy thing though).
