Borrow, lend, lease books

Although I am a big supporter of book borrowing/lending and have started several posts to this effect, I believe to accomplish this LOGOS would have to spend a huge amount of time and resources on infrastructure (tracking who borrows what and disabling the borrowed resource on lender's screens, etc.) I would rather LOGOS finish features that they promised a couple of years ago first. Achieving parity with L3 should be their first priority, followed by improving Library handling (multiple resource hiding, tagging, UI), note functionality and fixing PB.

Well, George, it appears there's 'too many pigs at the trough'.

You have your PC people 'hogging' resources thinking they'd like what they had in Libronix.

Then you have your Mac people snorting that the PC 'hogs' are getting all the good stuff.

Then you have your mobile people (two kinds no less) pointing out that those Mac and PC pigs are 'the past' - give us more food!!

Not to mention the Acclaim people whose presentations crash during services, and would just like a 'little food'.

Now, there's another group, but apparently they're a different kind of pig .. the 'When are pre-pubs going to be published?' pigs.

I'd guess if Bob bought any more pigs for his farm, all the current pigs would rise up in 'righteous anger'.

George said:

What do you think?

Why, thank you for asking me, George.  [:D]

Without debating the economics, ethics, or morality of Logos versus Noam Chomsky, I would like to list a few points that are likely to prevent book renting or loaning for a while:

1. I assume any rented/borrowed books would have to index with one's Logos library.
2. The users most likely to benefit from a rent/loan program are also the ones most likely to have slow internet service. I am thinking of missionaries, rural pastors from poorer churches, students working their way through Bible college, and third world users with very limited income.  A rent/loan program would probably involve increased internet usage.
3. I doubt the standard license for copyrighted resources allows renting or loaning out the content. Thus, many thousands of licensed works would have to go back to negotiations to secure that permission. That is putting a bunch of monkeys on Logos' back and the only reward would be loss of revenue.  If I were Logos, I would craft a rent/loan agreement and invite any interested copyright holders to sign on. Then I would encourage users (the monkeys in this scenario) to nag the copyright holders until they get what they want. It benefits nothing for Logos to assume the responsibility.

• In the past I have suggested a Logos subscription model. Can you imagine the rage from users who have invested in $3,000 to $30,000 (yes, there are a few) in Logos resources if a $50 per month "all-access" Logos subscription were made available? I understand why this would be a lose-lose proposition.
• I have also suggested a non-transferable, reduced price Logos license where ownership terminates when the owner does.  [:|]    I was told marketing such a license would be as difficult as selling pre-paid funeral plans. I now agree.
• I have suggested flat-term (5 years?) licensing where no ownership accumulates and nothing is refundable or transferable. Students may find this model useful as well as Seniors (us "old" people with shorter life expectancies) and users who have no one to bequeath the Logos resources to. But Logos prefers to encourage a lifelong relationship with the user-base. To offer this plan is like offering renewable 5 year marriage contracts that ban divorce in the interim. Sooner or later someone will exercise the opt-out clause.

I wish it were possible to loan a book or even rent one from Logos. I suppose one could abuse the 30 day warranty a few times; buy a book - read it - return it for a full refund. But that just seems wrong and I doubt Logos would stand for it very long. I had a widowed co-worker that collected $600,000 of life insurance from her husband's early demise. She resumed a singles social life and bought an expensive new dress every weekend to go clubbing. She would return the dress for full refund every Monday morning.     It just seems wrong.

Maybe there could be a Biblia.com loaner program with a seven day expiration. I wish.

Philana Crouch said:

Not only that, but the publishers of these books most likely won't go for this idea. We have to keep in mind when dealing with Logos, that the publishers have a lot of control too. They set the price, Logos had to get permission from them to offer books for sale or to give away books. 

Fine, then. Let them take their ball and go home...and let them see how long it takes before they get tired of looking out the window and watching all the neighborhood kids having fun while they sit moping. Logos needs to flex its muscle a bit more, but do it WISELY. Bob has already said he doesn't mind selling one book for $1000 or a thousand books for $1. What he and we need to do is convince publishers that e-books are best sold in bulk in order to maximize profits. Of course this will never happen as long as there are hundreds or thousands of Logos customers who openly profess how grateful they are just to have the opportunity to pay full price for a resource they desperately want (Zondervan, for instance). I fully recall with disgust how many people did just that when Zondervan became available. Not only did they do that, they proceeded to add that they had bought a full-price hard copy too, or even 2 or 3, in order to have one at home and one at the office, etc. etc. This sort of "hat-in-hand", Steppin Fetchit mentality makes it virutally impossible to negotiate for a better price. It reminds me of Hezekiah showing the foreign rulers the temple treasures--mindless idiocy. It is essentially akin to saying, "If you take advantage of me, I promise I won't complain--I'll even be grateful that you deigned to abuse me!"

I think all Logos users ought to recall that if it weren't for a relatively recent invention called the hyperlink, most of us would have less than 10% of the Logos libraries we have currently. In hardback, it would simply be foolishness to purchase libraries of multiple thousands of books because there would be no chance at all of ever making use of them. But electronic searching and hotlinking offer today's Biblical-resource user a powerful reason to have a large pool of resources at our disposal, because we can do in seconds what couldn't have been done previously even in weeks and months. But this new dynamic creates an additional new dynamic. I buy resources not because I expect to fully read them ever, but because I want to have them in my search system so that when I do my searches, anything pertinent can pop-up in my search or in a hotlinked reference. I'm not desiring to actually fully use the resource, and yet the resource is being sold to me as though I am. The idea that a husband who is a pastor and a wife who is a study leader both have to purchase their own copies of AYBD, ICC, WBC, or any other multi-volume work is UTTERLY ABSURD. In hardback, the idea they would each have their own personal copy of these hundred or thousand dollar sets is laughably preposterous. Yet for some inexplicable reason, in e-format no one bats an eyelash over it. Rather, people can't seem to gush enough about how lucky they are to spend thousands of dollars more than they would have in the previous dynamic.

I realize that e-format resources are more useful...but that isn't the only consideration here. The format's increased usefulness and utility also increases the demand for these resources we are far too eager to use and throw money at. THIS IS THE PART OF THE EQUATION THAT MANY LOGOS USERS INEXPLICABLY IGNORE--our collective desire to make use of the new-fangled power of electronic searching and linking by increasing the pool of resources we have at our disposal has CREATED A MARKET WHERE ONE DID NOT EXIST BEFORE. Most of us, even pastors, would not ever consider having dozens of multi-volume commentaries if not for the magic of electronic searching. Electronic searching CREATES A MUCH LARGER MARKET for these Bible-related resources than ever existed in the past. This in itself should cause a MASSIVE REDUCTION IN PRICING for all of the resources that Bible-related publishers produce and offer. But with some few exceptions, this just isn't happening as it should.

Again, a big part of the problem are Logos customers themselves, many of whom were used to buying hard copy resources in the past according to diamond pricing. Now, in the e-format age we should be buying e-books in bulk at pea gravel prices...but good luck ever seeing that logical change happen so long as multitudes on these forums practically giggle themselves silly about how they are more than happy to pay even more for an electronic resource than for a comparable print one. "It's worth is to me!" they insist. DeBeers parcels out a limited supply of diamonds to keep the price articially high...but if truth is told, there are enough diamonds in the world for every man, woman, and child to have a one-carat stone on each of their fingers and toes. If the spigot were opened to allow for this, the prices would be more in the range of 5 to 10 dollars apiece rather than 5 to 10K apiece, and rightly so. But if many Logos purchasers were in this new diamond market, they would be trumpeting "I wouldn't mind paying 20-30K apiece for my diamonds--IT'S WORTH IT TO ME!!!" And the prices, which OUGHT to be much lower, would thus barely budge. This approach is inordinately irresponsible, especially for those using congregational funds to acquire resources.

And so everyone suffers for the foolishness of those who lack wisdom. The situation reminds me of how YHWH describes Israel in Ezekiel 16. Most whores, He says, charge for their services, but Israel, in supreme foolishness actually PAYS for the "privilege" of being a whore (Ezek. 16:33). Being grateful for a blessing (electronic resources), no matter how great or useful, doesn't automatically mean you ought to become stupid and irresponsible in displaying your gratefulness. Truth is, Logos the company and Logos end-users need to stop portraying ourselves as so needy and compulsive and, frankly, co-dependant, that we allow abusive publishers to dictate terms to us. The current market ought to dictate terms much more to our benefit, if we will only allow ourselves to see this reality...and can keep ourselves from being covetous of the newest offering long enough for the market to begin to respond to the new dynamic of bulk commodity pricing for e-resources.

Bringing this full circle, I can see how the new dynamic might necessitate a need for people to have their own copies of resources once primarliy reserved for and sold to university and seminary libraries--but the concomitant prices for these resources ought to be a fraction of what they once were as a direct result of the fact that many more of these resource, by a multiplicative factor, are being sold because of the new dynamic. In my opinion, typical CP prices ought to be the usual every day prices for virtually all Logos resources. This would thus obviate the need for "borrowing" resources for most customers.

David Paul said:

Logos needs to flex its muscle a bit more, but do it WISELY. Bob has already said he doesn't mind selling one book for $1000 or a thousand books for $1. What he and we need to do

Why should Logos go to the mat for you? Most who complain in these forums about pricing have not an ounce of loyalty to Logos. They frequently advertise competitors' sales and sing praises for other companies who barely offer them anything cheaper. Collective bargaining is supposed to benefit everyone in the collective. This is that Chicken & Pig scenario all over again. When asked to help make breakfast of ham & eggs, the Pig objected to the Chicken; "For you, it will be a contribution. For me it will be a sacrifice!" This plan only asks users to save a little money while asking Logos to hemorrhage profits. I am all for a rent/loan program that is self-sustaining by users fees. I do not want my purchases underwriting a rent/loan economy. I get enough of that from Capitol Hill. I still like my
"Keep the monkeys off my back" plan quoted from my earlier post: 

3. "I doubt the standard license for copyrighted resources
   allows renting or loaning out the content. Thus, many thousands of
   licensed works would have to go back to negotiations to secure that
   permission. That is putting a bunch of monkeys on Logos' back and the
   only reward would be loss of revenue.  If I were Logos, I would craft a
   rent/loan agreement and invite any interested copyright holders to sign
   on. Then I would encourage users (the monkeys in this scenario) to nag
   the copyright holders until they get what they want. It benefits nothing
   for Logos to assume the responsibility."

David Paul said:

What he and we need to do is convince publishers that e-books are best sold in bulk in order to maximize profits.

I think Bob did that last Christmas. I did my part by accepting that $1 a book bulk deal. I wonder how many others who want $1 sale prices actually bought them? I did not pay full price for Zondervan Bundle #1 or #2 and I do not apologize for buying them both. My average rate per book is presently $2.86 each. Unless Logos starts paying us to take books, I doubt you will ever be happy with sale prices.

David Paul said:

I think all Logos users ought to recall that if it weren't for a relatively recent invention called the hyperlink, most of us would have less than 10% of the Logos libraries we have currently. In hardback, it would simply be foolishness to purchase libraries of multiple thousands of books because there would be no chance at all of ever making use of them.

Once upon a time long guns had to be loaded through the muzzle with black-powder and a push-rod. This was a time consuming process to launch just one little projectile. Kill ratio was just embarrassing. Then came along the Gatling gun and boy did kill ratio improve! Now with HIMARS missiles we can take out a city for the bargain price of $500 million. We should be looking at this as "What do I get for my investment?" rather than "How much profit is the publisher getting?"

David Paul said:

The idea that a husband who is a pastor and a wife who is a study leader both have to purchase their own copies of AYBD, ICC, WBC, or any other multi-volume work is UTTERLY ABSURD.

I would agree if the husband or wife would just work for free, like they are asking Logos to do. Otherwise maybe Public school teachers should be exempt from paying their water bill or cops should get free dry cleaning.

David Paul said:

Being grateful for a blessing (electronic resources), no matter how great or useful, doesn't automatically mean you ought to become stupid and irresponsible in displaying your gratefulness.

Irresponsible would be passing on the $1 per book opportunity and buying one by one at 10% discount.

David Paul said:

The current market ought to dictate terms much more to our benefit, if we will only allow ourselves to see this reality...

Collective bargaining is only as good as the solidarity of the collective and the present economy. If Zondervan is content with the present level of sales, they will not be compelled to lower prices. If some are willing to pay the prices Zondervan asks, rather than fore-go having the resource, you will have to resort to shooting the scabs who cross the picket line. Start with me because I don't have enough years to sit around waiting for your plan to work. I will just shift my little paradigm and rob Peter to pay Paul. Free enterprise supply-and-demand is the best way. I should know; I've been a union member for 32 years and counting.

edited: David Paul said:Again, a big part of the problem are Logos customers themselves,

Yeah, if only Logos could get rid of all those customers. And in like fashion; my church would be great if only all those members would just go away.

ST,

In some places, I almost expected you to say "April Fool's!", but since it's December, I decided not to hold my breath. It almost seemed like you were responding to a different post than mine, but I will respond to a few points.

I haven't "bought" any other Bible software, but the abondonment of L3 in favor of L4 has given room to consider it. I almost never look at the other software I do have. And I'm into Logos for over five figures, so I would say I'm a good customer. If they would fix notes (at this point, completely redo them), I wouldn't even consider a change (but that is a different issue).

All I'm saying basically is that the niche market Logos users represent has reached a point of significant change, and we are significantly different than "book buyers" in general. For very good reasons, we wish to have as large a pool of resources available to us as possible. We therefore are prepared to spend significant amounts of money on Logos resources. But I have personally reached a bit of a cost-effectiveness saturation point. I am willing to spend large amounts (as I am able) on acquiring thousands more titles if I can get bulk pricing, but that's pretty much the only thing that will get my wallet open for significant purchases. I bought Portfolio precisely for that reason...on price per item I simply couldn't pass it up AND it had tons of stuff I wanted. It was an automatic for me. I don't know why you say I wouldn't be swayed by sales, I have bought very, very little at regular price.

I didn't like last year's Master Collection because there was so much in it I already had. I know you and Praiser felt it was a good purchase in spite of the overlap. I didn't and I still feel the same. I don't really like this year's option, because I don't see it coming anywhere near last year's option in terms of price per item. Yes, you would get all steak and no fat, but comparatively it is still rather pricey.

I just don't see why they can't make a package that is essentially "Portfolio 2"...and which would by inference and logic not contain the same resources. Did I say that this idea is only LOGICAL??? I would very likely buy a Portfolio 2 and maybe even a Portfolio 3 and a Portfolio 4. The catch is they shouldn't have resource overlap. You and Praiser said you ignored that aspect because you thought it was still a good buy. I still feel that it is a bit insulting. I felt like they were playing me (and other Portfolio owners) for a sucker.

At this point, I have all the resources I NEED. I spend 95-98% of my time in the same dozen resources. I am fully aware of that. But when I do searches, I want to fish in the biggest possible pond, because the one elusive bit of info I need is often in a resource I would never have looked in otherwise. I would like to have some Zondervan resources, but I can easily do without them. If they come down significantly in price as a response to my aforementioned bulk-pricing strategy for e-resources, I will happily add them to my library. I have tons I would LIKE to add to my library (the better to search in, my dear), but except for CP purchases, I will not be plunking down big coin until they make the next logical, non-overlapping Mega Master Portfolio Granddaddy Collection.

Your comment about the pastor and wife just strikes me as silly. I don't see how anyone can picture a married couple in the same office going to His and Hers bookcases crammed with the exact same Portfolio Plus resources without responding that the concept is stupidly absurd. Encyclopedias and multi-volume commentaries have NEVER, EVER been conceived of as one-per-person resources. They are almost by definition designed to be communal resources. Does the e-resource dynamic make the idea of "to each his own" a more plausible concept? I can see why some would say "yes"....BUT--and I think this is a tremendously important "but"--the switch to a "per individual library" OUGHT TO BE FOLLOWED BY A CAUSE AND EFFECT DECREASE IN THE COST OF ALL SUCH RESOURCES. Again, it's diamond marketing vs. pea gravel marketing. When you sell in bulk, you don't ask for the same price, and you especially don't ask for more.