Help request from a Christian noobie and recent Logos 4 purchaser - Basic commentary, dictionary sug

Hi there, my name is Jonny. I am 33 years old and live in Northern Ireland.

I asked the Lord into my life back in 2002. Since then I have done only "light' bible study through 8 chapter study guides, etc as part of small groups and mission teams.

In the past year, I have become increasingly challenge by the fact the many friends in my social group are pretty disillusioned with Christianity and religion in general. Many of them are sadly swept along on a tide of new atheism, and have based a lot of their views on critics (Dawkins, Hitchens) etc writings, without doing any real research of their own.

However I am also aware that I am not in a great position to respond back to some of their arguments, which included:

The bible is full of contradictions
The bible is just bunch of myths copied from other ancient communities
The bible was changed and re-written to suit the churches political objectives
The bible is full of calls to violence, hatred, ethnic cleansing,etc

I want to get into some good detailed bible study and soak myself, not only in the text of the bible, but also in all the surrounding evidence, resources, etc.

I have been debating with getting some bible software for a while, and was playing with Glo for a while, but I found it to be superficially impressive, but when trying to do anything you ended up all over the place with multiple windows etc, and there wasn't a lot available outside the basic program.

I also tried "Eloquent" for Mac, but I found it to be unstable, both in it's operation and in getting access to the resources. The seems to be a depth of resources available through Bible.org and Crossway, but if I can't get at them and the software keeps crashing, then they are of little value. I also found the program fairly basic.

I had looked at Logos/Accordance/Bibleworks previously, but the price put me off straight away as I don't have that sort of money lying about.

However last week I stumbled across them again while looking for alternatives to Eloquent. But this time I noticed that they had a payment plan available. Based on my budget, I opted for the most expensive I could afford, which was the basic Scholar version. I am still not sure if this was wise or not, and should have just started at the bottom with the home version.

I would appreciate you thoughts on that first of all.

The main purpose of this post is to actually get some help in identifying where to starting in terms of using the resources that this software has.

I would like suggestions for the following:

Which book to start on for my journey into study
Which commentaries to use as a starting point
What other supporting resources to get (dictionaries, graphics, etc)

I know I can't explain everything in this initial post, but I am happy for this to become a conversation as we try to work out what my aims are and why resources to use.

Thanks in advance

Your brother in Jesus

Jonny

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Matt Hamrick

Hi Jonny,

Welcome to Logos and the forums.

A few years ago my first purchase was Logos Scholar's. Inside that package you have apologectics books. One thing I would tell you to do is get a printout of all your books in your package. The easiest way I know to do this is print all the contents from the product page. As far as your friends, you have some apologetic books in your library what will help you with them. Look for the author Dan Story and read his 3 books you own, Defending Your Faith, Engaging the Close Minded, and Christianity on the Offense. These are three books that will help you in your social circles.

As far as Bible study, pick your favorite translation. Start in the book of Mark. It's the shortest and I think earliest gospel. You will learn the more you use the software how to study. There are videos on the Logos website to help you train to use your software. In the Scholar's edition you have a ton of stuff to help you. We are different in how we study, so I can't help you with how, but I simply will encourage you to work it out. I can't recall what commentaries I was using when I only had the Scholar's, but I think it was Opening Up and Bible Exposition. That's probably the best you have inside the package. You don't need anything else except the Bible. I would read through that before opening up any other resource. You have a good package to start with. But remember everything in your package is a tool to be used for Bible study. It is not the Bible though.

Jonathan Cousins

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312596#Comment_312596

Thanks Matthew, I appreciate the response and the encouragement.

I will definitely check out the books by Dan Story as they sound good.

Given I am only starting off, would you say that it was a wise decision or not buying the Scholar's version?

Is there only 5% of the resources that are actually worth having and the rest is just padding?

Would I be better with the "Home" version and spend the extra money on buying specific resources?

What have you done since buying the scholar version? Have you upgraded or stuck with Scholar and just bought books as you need them?

Matt Hamrick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312599#Comment_312599

Like I said, I first purchased Scholar's and used it until I upgraded. I have continued to upgrade as Logos put out new base products. Currently, I am using Porfolio and I have dropped thousands of dollars on other resources. I tend to buy preaching, theology, church history, hermeneutics, and apolegetics. My use of commentaries anymore are to glean from them. I don't really use them for bible study but maybe to prepare a sermon. There are some commentaries I use because I believe in the author. I can tell you I believe in Logos Bible Software and I believe in the company. I don't regret purchasing anything from Logos, but there are resources I do not use and resources I own that I don't know about. The funny thing is even though I have upgraded and bought other resources my study of the Bible is still the same as when I first bought Logos Scholar's. The good news is I can use the sofware to conduct research for college, prepare sermons to deliver, study and interpret scripture, and study history or theology. But to study the Bible I simply open my favorite translation (nasb) and study. I will argue it was wise decision. I will tell you to get the package you can afford. That is wise. When you upgrade a package, you need to check out the pricing versus the thing you are really after. Whatever's cheaper that's what to buy. When I upgraded to platinum or maybe it was gold I was after BDAG and a commentary. It was in the package for x amount of dollars to upgrade. If I bought those products individually then it would have cost more to do that then upgrade. I can't tell you the recipe you will use to upgrade. I will tell you to upgrade to what you can afford. Don't worry about all that now though. Learn what you have and I think it was a great decision to get the Scholar's.

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312599#Comment_312599

Besides Dan Story's books, A General Introduction to the Bible is a good place to start with some of the questions skeptics throw at you. You should have that in Scholar's.

To be better acquainted with Logos, MVP Mark Barnes has produced some very helpful training videos that are worth watching. They are not long. http://www.logos4training.com/

You may find that the Normal Geisler Apologetics Library will be helpful: http://www.logos.com/product/8810/the-norman-l-geisler-apologetics-library. It is very reasonably priced.

Gary Habermas' The Historical Jesus is helpful: http://www.logos.com/product/786/the-historical-jesus-ancient-evidence-for-the-life-of-christ

Jesus and the Gospels by Blomberg is a good introduction to the modern questions about the historical veracity of the gospels: http://www.logos.com/product/3379/jesus-and-the-gospels-an-introduction-and-survey Darrell Bock's Studying the Historical Jesus is helpful on the modern questions about the Jesus of history: http://www.logos.com/product/5346/studying-the-historical-jesus-a-guide-to-sources-and-methods

As to what you purchased, I think you did the right thing. With Scholars you have the full language research capability Logos offers. Some books (those in the Ministry section) might not interest you, and some others are not top shelf, but for the price you got very good value for your investment. You can learn a lot from what you have purchased.

GregW

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312599#Comment_312599

Hi Jonny, and welcome to the forums from across the Irish Sea.

Given I am only starting off, would you say that it was a wise decision or not buying the Scholar's version?

Others have said elsewhere in the forums that you are best getting the highest base package you can afford, and I think that is true. You have probably made a wise choice, assuming that you will carry on using the product for study. I started with Leader's Edition, then went to Scholar's Silver and now have Scholar's Platinum, enhanced with a few other individually-purchased resources.

[quote]

Is there only 5% of the resources that are actually worth having and the rest is just padding?

That's probably pretty harsh. What I regard as padding, someone else will probably regard as a vital reference work.

My advice woudl be to start studying using the resources you have, and there are some useful (free) videos to help you get started on that at http://www.logos.com/videos.

I have bought additional resources as I have grown in my study, and in particular some commentary series and a few individual commentaries when I am studying a particular book. I would suggest that, rather than overdosing on commentaries you look up good commentaries for a particular book you are studying at www.bestcommentaries.org - some you can only buy as a series (like NICOT/NICNT) but some others you can buy individually. I generally buy sets of things when Logos have them on sale (I got the NIV Application Commentary series and Expositor's Bible Commentary series this way).

As far as apologetics books are concerned, you have some pretty reasonable ones in your package to get you started (you can see what they are called by going to the "Apologetics" section here). If you want more, there are some others available to buy from Logos - search for "Norman Geisler", "Peter Kreeft" or "apologetics" on the Product page. I suggest you work through those that were recommended above first of all and see what the bibliographies in those books point you to first, though - a lot of us buy things and then don't get time to read them!

I trust that is helpful.

Ken McGuire

First of all, I want to welcome you to your group. We are a rather varied group who all share a love for the the Bible and have found Logos software to be a quite useful tool for learning more about the Bible.

Assuming that you didn't spend money you will need in the next year, Scholars was a good start. In my opinion, using a version of Logos below Original Languages is missing almost all the usefulness of this software.

Where to begin? Everyone has their favorite book, but if Paul's Letter to Timothy is correct, all scripture can lead to fruitful results. The Holy Spirit must be our guide.

In my opinion, much more important than picking any specific book is that you are in dialogue with people about it since this I find my views clarified and corrected by interacting with others. This can be your friends in our out of church. Realize that while the Spirt can use you, it isn't you deciding that. As Luther put in his 2nd invocavit sermon, "I can get no farther than their ears; their hearts I cannot reach. And since I cannot pour faith into their hearts, I cannot, nor should I, force any one to have faith." We must trust the Spirit to be our guide in this, especially when it seems absent.

Logos has impressive reports that come when you just put in a passage into the "Go" box on the home page. I fully recommend you use them.

You ask for commentary recommendations. While it is important to be in dialogue with people of the past though commentaries, I think it is problematic that we depend on commentaries so much. It can lead to short circuiting the process of studying the bible. We are all tempted to just stick to the commentary we agree with.

For starters, you need a good bible dictionary. You have three decent one volume ones, IMHO - the Harper, the IVP New Bible Dictionary, and the Eerdmans. When you run into a concept, take a look at what all of them have to say.

The Bible sheds a lot of light on commentaries. You have multiple sets of cross references. Use them.

You have multiple bibles - compare them in the passage. Don't just pick a favorite, but try to understand what each is trying to say. Try to get a hint of what the issues are in the text. If you speak a language other than English, PLEASE look at bibles in those languages too. Different languages "think" a bit differently.

Once you are asking some decent questions, now turn to commentaries. With commentaries there are multiple kinds, and those different kinds ask different questions. Sometimes you need a commentary to help answer your questions, but sometimes the commentary will also let you in on other good questions too.

As far as additional resources, it is easy to get addicted to getting MORE and MORE. The more you dig into the Bible, the more you will find, and the more you will want to know about it. It is an endless process. From what you said, I would recommend the IVP Reference Collection for you. The 4 New Testament dictionaries in this collection are more than worth the price for the collection and you get some basic bible background commentaries as well. But get a hang of the system first.

Logos has tools that make it easier to touch upon the original languages as well. Be VERY cautious about any results from this until you know what you are doing.

While theological debate is not really something we should do here, feel free to ask for help with the system. I have been on Logos 4 since early Beta versions and I am still learning more.

SDG

Ken McGuire

Praiser

Hi Jonathan,

Welcome to the forums and the Logos user family!

To start with, I will suggest I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. I believe it will help you in your conversations with those "sadly swept along on a tide of new atheism." I think you will find this resource will help you when speaking with your friends.

There are alot of resources in Scholars that will benefit you with deeper study and research. Learning how to search Logos and make use of all Logos4 has to offer is important!
I stongly suggest that you view the videos at http://www.logos4training.com/ more free video are available on the Wiki at http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_4_Video_Tutorials

I am certain that you will find the video and Wiki very helpful.

I am praying for you and your friends!

Praiser

EDIT: You will also find http://www.logos.com/product/8810/the-norman-l-geisler-apologetics-library resources to be helpful.

I think Scholars was a great package for you to start with!

You have the Apologetics Bible in your package you might want to check out the articles in it, such as Has the Bible Been Accurately Copied Down Through the Centuries? Clicking the links will open the resource in your Logos4 software.
As well as How Can We Know the Bible Includes the Correct Books?
You also have Christianity on the Offense in your Scholar Library. I haven't yet read that one, but it looks helpful.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

However last week I stumbled across them again while looking for alternatives to Eloquent.

Welcome [:D]

Suggest signing up for Logos Christmas credit special => http://www.logos.com/christmas

Also wonder if took advantage of 15 % off base package ?

For learning Logos, wiki has => Getting Started with Logos

What have you done since buying the scholar version? Have you upgraded or stuck with Scholar and just bought books as you need them?

Personally have upgraded a Scholar's library to Gold, then Platinum. Current Christmas credit special has me considering Portfolio (depends on God's timing and providence).

My favorite commentary series is included in Scholar's Gold; wiki Logos Resource Reviews has => UBS New Testament Handbook Series and => UBS Old Testament Handbook Series

Option: with 12 months to spread out payments (with $ 5 added per payment), may want to discuss with Logos Sales about "refunding" initial purchase of Scholar's, then purchase Scholar's Gold with 15 % discount, which would have a monthly payment of $ 102.75 (US) plus credit of $ 351.89 (US) toward future purchases: perhaps The Essential IVP Reference Collection Version 3

Observation about base package bundles: resources that initially were not attractive can become useful as learn more and use Logos to search for stuff. For example, Scholar's Silver includes Apostolic Fathers, which has text of Didache (historical teaching from the 12 Apostles).

Future forum posts could ask: how to research a particular question using Logos Bible Software.

The bible is full of contradictions

Edit: Scholar's Library includes: "Difficulties in the Bible: Alleged errors and contradictions." with two dozen frequently discussed items.

logosres:difbible;art=title;off=1

Keep Smiling [:)]

nicky crane

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312612#Comment_312612

Well done, Jonny! You have made a good investment.

If you have questions you can't answer, you can ask in the forums how you can look for answers in Logos resources. And our MVPs, and sometimes others, can help you with problems you have using the software. Sometimes they reply within minutes. And they are very patient with persistent problems, as I have discovered yet again within the last few days.

Incidentally you might do well to look at the Vyrso Christmas offers, including lots of freebies, which you can also read in Logos.

http://vyrso.com/december?utm_source=vyrsoalert&utm_medium=email&utm_content=button&utm_campaign=decemberfreebies

(Vyrso app itself only works on iPad, iPhone etc). There's a free book by John Piper, free till Christmas. Others are free for a shorter period of time.

And check out Logos freebies if you have not yet done so.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312622#Comment_312622

Incidentally you might do well to look at the Vyrso Christmas offers, including lots of freebies, which you can also read in Logos.

http://vyrso.com/december?

Edit: can also sort Vyrso products by price:

http://vyrso.com/products/search?q=&start=0&sort=pricelo&pageSize=30

And check out Logos freebies if you have not yet done so.

http://www.logos.com/products/search?start=&sort=pricelo&pageSize=30

Keep Smiling [:)]

nicky crane

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312626#Comment_312626

As I said, answers often come within minutes!

Praiser

Since I edited my earlier post I will add the information here in a new post so it will be e-mailed to you if you are following the thread. You may want to re-check previous posts to see if anyone has added to theirs since posting. Changes can be made to posts within 12 hours (I think that is the time limit).

EDIT: You will also find http://www.logos.com/product/8810/the-norman-l-geisler-apologetics-library resources to be helpful.

I think Scholars was a great package for you to start with!

You also have Christianity on the Offense in your Scholar Library. I haven't yet read that one, but it looks helpful.

BriM

Hi Jonny,

I'm going to take a slightly different tack to other contributers, based on your statement:

I have done only "light' bible study through 8 chapter study guides, etc as part of small groups and mission teams.

I didn't see any evidence that you want to study the Bible in original
languages (Greek, Hebrew, etc.) but rather that you want to:

get into some good detailed bible study and soak myself, not only in the text of the bible, but also in all the surrounding evidence, resources, etc.

I think it's important for you to decide whether you have the time and interest to get into Greek. Based on where you seem to be, you might find getting a better understanding of the Bible in English to be a better focus for a while.

If this is the case, then think seriously about whether one of the lower packages would be better for you. The Bible Study or Leaders packages sounds like the best fit I can tell from what you've said. They include most of the English Bible Study resources from Scholars without the original languages. They are considerably cheaper and you could wisely use the savings for something like the IVP Reference Set (or ISBE) and the Tyndale Commentaries, both ideal for your expressed needs.

If you do intend to study Greek and/or Hebrew then you've chosen well.

MJ. Smith

However I am also aware that I am not in a great position to respond back to some of their arguments, which included:

The bible is full of contradictions

The bible is just bunch of myths copied from other ancient communities

The bible was changed and re-written to suit the churches political objectives

The bible is full of calls to violence, hatred, ethnic cleansing,etc

I want to get into some good detailed bible study and soak myself, not only in the text of the bible, but also in all the surrounding evidence, resources, etc.

I'm going to take a different position than the others - What is the intent of your Bible study - to reinforce positions you already know or to listen to God? Books on apologetics are useful in two situations:

apologetics against your own position are useful for learning what others are being taught about your position and how they are taught to argue against it
apologetics written from others sharing your position are useful for learning how to express your position more clearly

But you need to have an informed position to start with. Until you have steeped yourself in the Scripture, apologetic books are little more than brainwashing by the author. The Bible has authority; authors of apologetic books do not. I would suggest, therefore, that you take some of the introductions to the Bible/Old Testament/New Testament and read them one at a time alongside along side the Bible. Do this two or three times then start close reading of books or sections of books that interest you - reading with the tools Logos provides for background, commentary etc. At this point, you will know the answers to your original questions by actual knowledge not by parroting back what you read. You will find knowledge to be a much more effective apologetic/witness.

True story: When I was 18, a friend was taking an evangelization course offered by her Pentecostal Church. She had been raised in a very closed environment and was not exactly prepared for the diversity of the world. She asked my roommate and myself (raised agnostic and Church of Christ, respectively) to be her guinea pigs. We agreed because we thought she wouldn't survive anyone really challenging her beliefs. So in our questions, we would challenge her only on issues we thought she could defend - always being very careful to be logical, consistent, Bible based ... Half way through the course we got fired as guinea pigs. Her teachers couldn't provide her appropriate defenses and wouldn't believe that she was correctly reporting our questions. She finished the course without any more practical experience. P.S. you should have seen me four years later in San Francisco with a 16 year old Jehovah's Witness on her own for the first time. I did much better giving her solid experience. She was sad to tell me I had exceeded the number of meeting in which she had to convert be or move on.

Rosie Perera

However I am also aware that I am not in a great position to respond back to some of their arguments, which included:

The bible is full of contradictions

The bible is just bunch of myths copied from other ancient communities

The bible was changed and re-written to suit the churches political objectives

The bible is full of calls to violence, hatred, ethnic cleansing,etc

Hi Jonny,

I'll add my welcome to the chorus of voices.

It's good that you're looking to deepen your journey in studying the Bible. But I wouldn't expect it to become a whole lot easier to convince your friends, even if you can come up with the best possible answers to all of their objections. Faith is more than an intellectual exercise as I'm sure you've discovered by now. You can pray for your friends, that the Holy Spirit will prepare their hearts to be receptive to the seed of God's Word, but without that, no amount of patient explanation will get past their defenses. They want to not believe, so they'll come up with some other excuses. Or they'll end up arguing back at your attempted persuasion, which isn't productive. Learn to discern when is a good time to explain the Bible to them and when it's best to just love them and pray for them. The way you communicate can be even more important than what you communicate in getting the message accepted.

It seems that in your post you are wisely asking for what resources would be best for you to grow in your Biblical knowledge, not necessarily anything for answering back your skeptical friends. I think that's a good approach. The better equipped you are to hold onto your faith in spite of what can sometimes be some pretty good arguments against it, the better off you'll be down the road in communicating with others of all stripes.

To that end, I'd recommend working to get a handle on how the whole grand narrative of Scripture from beginning to end holds together. Then dig into various parts of it. The thing about those focused 8-week Bible studies is they often give you plenty of detail on one theme or one book of the Bible but never a bird's-eye view of the whole thing.

Some books you already have in Scholar's Library that would give you the whole picture include:

The Bible Guide
Bible Reader's Companion
Exploring the Old Testament
Exploring the New Testament
Holman QuickSource Guide to Understanding the Bible
Introducing the Old Testament
Introducing the New Testament

(Most of that list is in alphabetical order, but I put the Old Testament intros before the New Testament ones, and would recommend you start there, because the OT is such important background for understanding the NT.)

JAIN THOMAS

Hi Jonathan

Your decision to buy Scholars is the right choice. Anyways you can't go through entire material. But later on it will be helping you in one way or other.

Go to the viedeos of Ravi Zacharias. He is a very good apologetic and the way he presents things are amazing. You will see lot of his stuffs in YouTube.

(‾◡◝)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312666#Comment_312666

Lots of advice.

Well, here is my two cents worth ...

A very good resource for new believers as well as established ones is a dvd by D. A. Carson entitled, The God Who Is There. Fourteen lectures totaling approximately 11 hours of viewing. You will NOT find a better summarization of Christianity and what the essence of the biblical story is as this.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/God-Who-There-Finding-Place/dp/0801030668/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1323556938&sr=8-4

Humblest regards,

Jonathan Cousins

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312666#Comment_312666

Hey, I can't thank you folks enough, it is a real encouragement to me to get your responses and hear your different opinions.

I know that none of you would want me to follow your advice just for the sake of following and the main thing is that I take it onboard and seek God's guidance on my own direction.

You have all confirmed to me that I have made the right decision in investing in Logos 4.

Jonathan Cousins

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312640#Comment_312640

Hi Jonny,

I'm going to take a slightly different tack to other contributers, based on your statement:

I have done only "light' bible study through 8 chapter study guides, etc as part of small groups and mission teams.

I didn't see any evidence that you want to study the Bible in original
languages (Greek, Hebrew, etc.) but rather that you want to:

get into some good detailed bible study and soak myself, not only in the text of the bible, but also in all the surrounding evidence, resources, etc.

I think it's important for you to decide whether you have the time and interest to get into Greek. Based on where you seem to be, you might find getting a better understanding of the Bible in English to be a better focus for a while.

If this is the case, then think seriously about whether one of the lower packages would be better for you. The Bible Study or Leaders packages sounds like the best fit I can tell from what you've said. They include most of the English Bible Study resources from Scholars without the original languages. They are considerably cheaper and you could wisely use the savings for something like the IVP Reference Set (or ISBE) and the Tyndale Commentaries, both ideal for your expressed needs.

If you do intend to study Greek and/or Hebrew then you've chosen well.

Hi, thanks for your response.

I have no training in any of the original languages, and at this point in time don't desire or intend to become fluent in them. However I would like to be able to look at what the meaning of a word was in the original language and context, as many words today have different meanings than they are meant to at time of writing (love, etc)

What I don't know yet is whether there are resources in Logos which will satisfy that requirement with have all the Greek/Hebrew resources that come as part of the Scholar package.

As you say, it may well be better to drop down to a lower package, (I am still within 30 day refund period) and spend the extra on some other good resources

What are your thoughts?

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312801#Comment_312801

Jonathan ... looking at your latest thoughts, in theory a reverse interlinear combined with the Halot/BDAG package plus maybe a good dictionary is really all you truly need ... adding later one or two good commentaries.

I started out similarly with the Original Language package (cheaper) and then added selected resources (books). Unfortunately the more I read, the more interesting it got. I'm very much convinced the validity of belief is in the details (at least for me).

That's why, assuming your finances, your original decision is actually quite good. It gets you where you want to go quickly, it saves you money (a lot), and as you read along, it gives you answers to questions that you don't yet have.

BriM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312801#Comment_312801

I have no training in any of the original languages, and at this point in time don't desire or intend to become fluent in them. However I would like to be able to look at what the meaning of a word was in the original language and context, as many words today have different meanings than they are meant to at time of writing (love, etc)

Based on this, have a look at Bible Study or maybe Leaders. They contain reverse interlinears and some dictionaries that may be all you need. There are also a few Greek resources in Community Pricing at the moment that are very cheap - see another thread for advice on these.

You said in your original post that you'd taken a package as much as you could afford and maybe are having second thoughts about whether it's really what you need. I think you could get a better fit with what you really want with a lower package and some of the recommendations of other resources that people have made.

The good thing about Logos is they are nice people and will honour the 30 day trial with no questions asked. As you have the resources for now, you could look at the dictionaries and reverse interlinears that are in both the Scholars and lower packages. Then you can easily see if you will be satisfied with the simpler resources or need the fuller set.

I like the attitude you expressed earlier about seeking the LORD's will on this. (And I also learned from some of the other contributers about we need to spend more time in the Bible itself rather than books about the Bible).

Jonathan Cousins

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312819#Comment_312819

Thanks folks, all this is invaluable.

Can you explain briefly what a few of these things are:

Reverse interlinear
Halot/BDAG

Thanks

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312820#Comment_312820

Sorry!!

Reverse interlinear is where the english reads normal, and the greek or hebrew words are directly shown underneath the english (optional). That way if you want more information about the original word, you just right-click on the word and the software looks up the meaning in either greek or hebrew. It's very convenient and that's why Logos includes them in most of the packages. It's called 'reverse' because the 'flow' is the english flow ... not the original greek or hebrew flow.

Halot is short for 'Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament'. It's quite large and in-depth but once you get it, there's not much better you'll ever need.

BDAG is a common reference for the number one greek dictionary / lexicon (the letters refer to the author's names). It too is quite in-depth and almost always the number one recommendation. That is why Logos puts HALOT and BDAG together at a discount. BDAG, in comparison to some other in-depth lexicons, also shows the word meanings relative to the verses involved (since greek meanings can vary).

Here's the HALOT/BDAG combo: http://www.logos.com/product/5228/bdag-halot-bundle

As you'll note, the costs begin to add up quickly ... thus the smartness of carefully examining each choice.

Jonathan Cousins

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312823#Comment_312823

I am considering dropping down to the Leader's Package as it seems to have 99% of the language based resources that the scholar package has.

However as I am not familiar with Logos yet and how are the resources work, can someone explain the main difference between the two packages and the way in which the additional resources in Scholar package are/could be used?

Thanks

Jonny

Ben

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312801#Comment_312801

It's not a Logos book, but Peter Enns' Inspiration and Incarnation: Evangelicals and the Problem of the Old Testament is excellent treatment of these issues.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312833#Comment_312833

I am considering dropping down to the Leader's Package as it seems to have 99% of the language based resources that the scholar package has.

?? Maybe you should look again at http://www.logos.com/comparison , in my view of things, the original language based resources are exactly what differrentiates Scholars from Leaders. Or did you miss typing "English language" ?

can someone explain the main difference between the two packages

Basically, Scholars is Leaders plus (most of) Original languages plus some Sermon Outlines.

IMHO, with Leaders you will be able to look up Greek words from a Reverse Interlinear in Strong's lexicon, that's nice and helpful, but that's it. E.g. you will not have a Greek or Hebrew bible text and you may miss tools that show you how the original word was translated elsewhere in the bible.

(full disclosure: I don't have either of these packages, so you should wait for others to chime in)

Mick

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312843#Comment_312843

I don't think Leader's is worth money above the Bible Study Library. The leadership resources are dated and mostly aimed at pastors. Save the $50 for something else. You'll have all the same tools in Bible Study that you'd get in Leader's.

Suzy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312801#Comment_312801

Hello Jonathan

Just reminding you that not all of the Logos 'features and databases' are available in every package. For more information check that section (last one) on the comparison chart here http://www.logos.com/comparison . You may like to have a look at some of these features that you now have and see which ones you think you will find useful to keep. This can help inform your decision as to which package best suits your purposes. If you change to a lower package you will lose access to some of these features.

All the best with your decisions

Sue

Jonathan Cousins

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312862#Comment_312862

Thanks Sue, that is great advice.

I didn't realise that the functionality of software varied from package to package. That is also a key part of my decision making.

I think I will need the full 30 days to get my head around what the software actually does!!

Kevin Fortin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312863#Comment_312863

Dear Jonathan, I am also a noobie, reconsidering Christianity after a few decades away. The Bible Study package has been more than enough to be helpful, stimulating and enlightening for me.

Kevin

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312801#Comment_312801

I have no training in any of the original languages, and at this point in time don't desire or intend to become fluent in them. However I would like to be able to look at what the meaning of a word was in the original language and context, as many words today have different meanings than they are meant to at time of writing (love, etc)

English is not Greek; likewise English is not Hebrew. Greek has a more expressive verbal system, whose action intensity can be lacking in English translations. Also current English typically does not distinguish between singular and plural usage for 2nd person: you. In an English Bible that does use thee (singular) and ye (plural), John chapter 3 discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus is a bit more informative.

Personally am not fluent in Greek, but have some understanding of various grammatical items with more to learn. Thankful for visual filters in Logos 4 that can highlight Greek grammatical usage in Greek New Testaments (with morphological tagging) and English Reverse Interlinear Bibles. By way of example, Philippians 4:4-9 has six verbs in the imperative (command) tense. In the ESV Reverse Interlinear Bible, clicked Display, then checked Inline for Surface, Manuscript, and Louw-Nida.

The Greek Manuscript has numeric subscripts to indicate word order change. For screen shot, hovered mouse over Louw-Nida # 30.9 to show semantic range of word meaning in this context; the pop-up covers an imperative verb in Phillippians 4:9. With the same Logos Greek Morphology visual filters enabled, can see original word order in a Greek New Testament:

The Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament can also Display Louw-Nida numbers inline, which is helpful for contextual word meaning look-up. Observation: Louw-Nida semantic domain numbering was done many years after BDAG "A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.)" Like an English dictionary, BDAG lists all word meanings, which may or may not include specific scripture reference for that meaning. For quick word meaning look-up in context, personally prefer Louw-Nida. For in depth word study for range of meaning, BDAG is more extensive (lots to look-up and ponder). By the way, BDAG is included in Scholar's Platinum and Portfolio.

One caution to remember with word studies: proper names tend to have the same meaning across languages to identify a person, place, or thing. However, many words have different range of meanings and nuances. For example, John 21:15-17 translated two Greek words as "love" in English, which hides nuance differences between the two Greek words.

The United Bible Society (UBS) handbooks have translation insights that are understandable in English and do not need original language mastery. Considering UBS regular price, Scholar's Gold is a better deal.

As you say, it may well be better to drop down to a lower package, (I am still within 30 day refund period) and spend the extra on some other good resources

Suggest looking at comparison chart => http://www.logos.com/comparison then looking in Scholar's resources to determine personal value.

Also Logos blog article may be helpful for future purchase(s) => http://blog.logos.com/2011/07/how-to-find-a-bargain-on-logos-com/

Keep Smiling [:)]

Ward Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/312612#Comment_312612

Assuming that you didn't spend money you will need in the next year, Scholars was a good start. In my opinion, using a version of Logos below Original Languages is missing almost all the usefulness of this software.

[Y]

I really enjoy slowly sampling the text of the Scriptures, highlighting as I go...then spot-checking original language words and Biblical People/Places/Things...then broadening out to commentaries--and tieing all that back together via the highlighting.

Mark was suggested as a starting point--for me, that looks like [the markup carries over into the references that I use, and I have created a "Notes" for cross-referencing between resources--an example of which is indicated at v10]:

Whereas 2 Ki is:

I've never found that by increasing my diligence in daily exposure in depth to some part of the Word that I became less confident--rather I stand humbled, amazed, and encouraged at the unfathomable depth that God packed into a mere 774,746 words and the clarion call to relationship that it contains. Knowing what _you_ believe and _why_ you believe it is helped by toolsets like Logos, but in the end is attained via thorough self-marination...and that is something that one cannot accomplish for another.

Kendall Sholtess

Welcome, Jonathan!

In my opinion, one of the best resources for understanding how to study the Bible better is Bob Utley's "You Can Understand the Bible" seminar. Having Scholar's, it should be among your resources. I would also recommend going to his website and listening to the video seminar. His commentaries are especially good.

He also recommends How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth, by Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart. Here is the link: http://www.logos.com/product/5421/how-to-read-the-bible-for-all-its-worth . But I would start with Utley, and then Fee & Stuart can tell you more about genre specific Bible Interpretation.

If you consider yourself a layman, I would like to second the recommendation of the Norman Geisler apologetics material, especially, "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist."

I hope this helps. I was in a similar situation to you a few years ago (I came to Christ in 2003). Since then, I have been self-taught in Theology, Apologetics, Biblical Languages, and Textual Criticism. This stuff is fascinating!

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

The main purpose of this post is to actually get some help in identifying where to starting in terms of using the resources that this software has.

While reading a free resource in Logos from the Vyrso December deals => http://vyrso.com/december thought about this thread.

Chapter 3 is written by Josh McDowell that answers the question: "Can You Trust What the Bible Says about God ?", which includes False assumption # 2: "The Bible is full of myths and legends" with factual counter-points (suggest reading scripture footnotes).

Keep Smiling [:)]