Is Logos 4 Stable for Anyone on Lion? (dev input would be appreciated)

I've used that other Mac Bible software for years and it's always been very fast and almost completely rock solid. I understand that Logos is slow due to the architecture, but I'm concerned about people saying it crashes multiple times and day and they come back to it and find it completely unresponsive. If I switch to Logos in order to access some resources that other software doesn't have, I have to have it for work. It sounds like a lot of the advice on these forums is running utilities, collecting logs, and trying to diagnose software problems. Is it stable on Lion for anyone? I can't deal with software crashing while I'm trying to get work done.

Having worked in a software development environment before, I totally understand why Logos 4 was done the way it was, but I have to wonder if trying to run it half Mono and half Cocoa isn't why there are so many strange crashes. It seems like the best long term option would be an application that is completely programmed for Mac or at least in C++. I understand that it's a lot of work for a complicated interface like Logos, but there are a lot of software programs now that are multi platform and run really well. The mono solution, while it makes sense if you're a Microsoft development shop, makes me wonder if Logos will ever be completely stable.

Stability is way more important to me than feature parity. I would personally rather put up with limited features and some time "re-engineering" if the end result was a stable Mac product. I'm wanting to make the switch, but nervous that the Mac product still isn't stable even though it's been out a few years. Not creating a native Mac solution also makes me nervous that Logo will be tempted to go back to Windows only if the Mac product doesn't stabilize.

Anyway, I believe that Logos is working hard on this issue and I respect all the effort and the programmers that are working on the problem. I think they are doing their best. I would just be encouraged if we knew that Logos was working on a more native solution for Mac users that would be rock solid. If it's not rock solid, getting additional features from the Windows product doesn't really matter that much to me and I really don't want to invest in moving my library unless I know that Logos will have a solid Mac product for a long time.

I'm not upset, just a little nervous...

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Comments

JT (alabama24)

It is stable for me, but there are some users who seem to have constant problems. I am a happy & satisfied user (although I too would prefer a native MAC solution).

Samuel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314122#Comment_314122

I'd be thrilled to hear, even if it took 12 months, that Logos was going to go with a native Mac solution....

David Mitchell

It sounds like a lot of the advice on these forums is running utilities, collecting logs, and trying to diagnose software problems. Is it stable on Lion for anyone?

Over half of our active users run the application on Lion, and most of them don't frequent this forum. The reason that this forum is filled with reports of issues is that this is the place to go when you have a problem.

Logos 4 runs well for our development staff. When you see developers or testers requesting logs or other diagnostic information, it's because we have been unable to replicate a reported bug. We aggressively seek any clue that will help us resolve our customers' issues, even if the problem is only encountered by a small minority of users.

Having worked in a software development environment before, I totally understand why Logos 4 was done the way it was, but I have to wonder if trying to run it half Mono and half Cocoa isn't why there are so many strange crashes.

You need not wonder. Our common code is among the most stable, well-tested code in our codebase. Nearly all issues that are reported in the Mac forum are issues in our Objective-C code. The next most common category consists of issues that are common to both platforms.

Not creating a native Mac solution also makes me nervous that Logos will be tempted to go back to Windows only if the Mac product doesn't stabilize.

No need for concern there, either. I can't share specific numbers, but our Mac user base is large—and growing. It's an important platform to us, and we're dedicated to improving it.

David Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314129#Comment_314129

I'd be thrilled to hear, even if it took 12 months, that Logos was going to go with a native Mac solution....

Many, many person-years of effort have gone into our common code. Replacing it all with Objective-C or C++ code would be a five-year project (at least), and it would likely result in a product with more bugs because the code wouldn't be as thoroughly tested as the current common code.

Alexander

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314139#Comment_314139

I'm a happy, fast, and stable MAC user. I do have the occasional issue with a crash or minor bug. Most of the (like note formating and indenting issues) are common to both platforms

Paul-C

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314148#Comment_314148

I'm a very happy user too. I do have the occasional crash, but thankfully it is an occasional occurrence. Since I was a newcomer to Logos on the Mac platform, I have no knowledge of what Logos 4 does on the Windows platform, thus feature parity is not an issue for me since I don't know what I'm missing. Since upgrading my MacBook Pro to 8GB of RAM and a SSD, I've been very impressed by how much more quickly Logos runs.

Jason

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314156#Comment_314156

Working relatively well over here. Some occasional hangs and weird bugs (wouldn't accept input from they keyboard earlier today), but on the whole, it's very stable. A long, long cry from the Alpha. Great job Logos Mac team!

Sacrifice

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314170#Comment_314170

I just converted from a PC to two Macs.

Happy Mac. [H]

Alexander

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314156#Comment_314156

An upgrade to 8GB of RAM was huge for me as well.

Samuel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314139#Comment_314139

Many, many person-years of effort have gone into our common code. Replacing it all with Objective-C or C++ code would be a five-year project (at least), and it would likely result in a product with more bugs because the code wouldn't be as thoroughly tested as the current common code.

I completely understand that. Mono's history in and out of Novell just makes me wonder what the long-term future is for Mono support wise unless a major vendor like Microsoft commits to making the .NET run-time a first class citizen on platforms other than Windows. I appreciate the commitment from the Logos team though.

David Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314187#Comment_314187

Many, many person-years of effort have gone into our common code. Replacing it all with Objective-C or C++ code would be a five-year project (at least), and it would likely result in a product with more bugs because the code wouldn't be as thoroughly tested as the current common code.

I completely understand that. Mono's history in and out of Novell just makes me wonder what the long-term future is for Mono support wise unless a major vendor like Microsoft commits to making the .NET run-time a first class citizen on platforms other than Windows. I appreciate the commitment from the Logos team though.

I was certainly concerned about it right after the Attachmate acquisition of Novell, but the team at Xamarin is growing and (more importantly) profitable. Microsoft even chose to use Mono for their version of Kinectimals for iOS.

I have few concerns about the future of the platform.

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314194#Comment_314194

I almost never have problems with Logos 4 Mac, since I left Beta it is rock-solid. (Though I do have a desire to see something closer to parity with Logos for Windows.)

Mac is all I use for sermon & bible study preparation and for academic work. It just works – which is why after my initial move to Mac from PC two years ago I use Mac/Apple for all my tech needs.

[:D]

Otto S. Carroll

Very stable on my almost 3 yo MBP running Lion.

happy happy!

HansK

Very happy with Logos (and also A...., the program i assume you have now).

No great issues yet, I mainly use Logos for looking up commentaries. I use A. for texual searches (greek and hebrew construct searches), its much faster now for that, but I assume Logos is moving forwards [:D]

Great people here on the forum, always willing to help.

I am running beta, appreciate all the efforts from Logos and the developers.

Soli Deo Gloria!

Hans

Daniel Bergquist

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314133#Comment_314133

You need not wonder. Our common code is among the most stable, well-tested code in our codebase. Nearly all issues that are reported in the Mac forum are issues in our Objective-C code. The next most common category consists of issues that are common to both platforms.

Out of curiosity, does Logos have a contiguous integration system running unit tests and the clang static analyzer on the ObjC code? How familiar is Logos with Instruments?

Logos 4 runs well for our development staff. When you see developers or testers requesting logs or other diagnostic information, it's because we have been unable to replicate a reported bug. We aggressively seek any clue that will help us resolve our customers' issues, even if the problem is only encountered by a small minority of users.

Speaking of which, I would be happy to let Logos bundle my little Logos Log Scribe utility to help streamline this process. Perhaps it could be dumped in /Applications/Utilities

Additionally, if Keep Smiling 4 Jesus was willing to provide an ObjC class for the Logos4MacLogging functionality, I would be happy to integrate that into the Logos Log Scribe utility so there is one utility, not two. The Apple Script code would be OK too, but would take me a bit longer to work with. :-)

Samuel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314256#Comment_314256

Very happy with Logos (and also A...., the program i assume you have now).

No great issues yet, I mainly use Logos for looking up commentaries. I use A. for texual searches (greek and hebrew construct searches), its much faster now for that, but I assume Logos is moving forwards

Great people here on the forum, always willing to help.

Yes, I have "A". Super fast and stable. Really good for original language work, but 90% for me is commentaries to help me create notes for class quickly. That's where the ability to get certain books I may use for one class via Logos is appealing.

As long as I get get quickly to TDNT and TWOT/BDB when reading a text that's really all I need. I don't know the languages well enough to need to do construct searches.

Wes Saad

I can chime in as another (mostly) satisfied Lion user. I'm more interested in feature parity than you are, and a few things still lag behind, but I have no complaints as far as stability goes. I usually run the beta channel, and even the beta is typically quite stable.

Any app will have crashes at times, and the forums tend to be visited by people having specific problems (and visited by forum addicts like alabama24!). Everyone else is too busy using Logos without issue to visit the forums!

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314291#Comment_314291

As long as I get get quickly to TDNT and TWOT/BDB when reading a text that's really all I need. I don't know the languages well enough to need to do construct searches.

With Logos library prioritization, can specify resource search order when right click on a word, then click lemma or Strong's number. Personally have prioritized lexicons without Strong's numbering before lexicons with Strong's numbers; hence my right click is followed by Strong's number for TDNT and TWOT quick access. The "Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon" does not have a Strong's number indexing so my right click, then lemma has BDB as my 2nd choice, with HALOT as my first.

Also would recommend "Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words" that has many indexes.

Additionally, if Keep Smiling 4 Jesus was willing to provide an ObjC class for the Logos4MacLogging functionality, I would be happy to integrate that into the Logos Log Scribe utility so there is one utility, not two. The Apple Script code would be OK too, but would take me a bit longer to work with. :-)

Time for me to learn Objective-C. Currently Logos4MacLogging is an applescript application.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314291#Comment_314291

Dear Samuel : While i cannot call logos for Mac "stable" nor can I call it efficient, I can say I did not notice any real difference between Snow Leopard and Lion.

Like you I have both Softwares and only "need" Logos for the reasons you mentioned- resources and for me, Specific resources.

Thus I tolerate the slowness and crashes to be able to use those specific resources.

If one turns off the Exegetical guides and other features one is not using for the study they are doing, one can get decent page scrolling and stability.

IMHO part of the "problem" is Logos is trying to do too many things at one time, most of which are being done when the information is not being asked for or needed.

Turning some of that off seems to stabilize the program a bit.

That said: If you can afford the "latest and greatest" Mac and load it with all the ram it will hold, the fasted hard rive you can get ( SSD) , then your chances increase of having a good experience. Logos hits the Processor really hard and is hard on memory if you leave everything "on" in Logos.

Hope this helps.

Donovan R. Palmer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314310#Comment_314310

I hate to rain on the parade here as I am one of the 'minority' users. I have a mid-09 Macbook which is pretty much stock in software (I don't install anything that I don't absolutely need) and it has had no hardware mods. I don't know if it has anything to do with Lion or not, but I rarely get through a week without a crash or experiencing some sort of bug. I do my best to document these issues when I encounter them so that the effort can progress.

The good news is that aside from mysteriously losing some data a few weeks ago, the crashes have never rendered the software completely useless. I do think Logos will get it fixed. I just wished I wasn't in the 'minority' group.

Daniel Bergquist

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314308#Comment_314308

Time for me to learn Objective-C. Currently Logos4MacLogging is an applescript application.

Would be quicker to figure out how to use NSAppleScript to integrate your script into the applet.

Robin Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314642#Comment_314642

On my personal end, the program is quite stable but lack of speed in almost all areas.

Joshua Moran

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314335#Comment_314335

My computer crashed 5 times with a Kernel Panic. I am running 10.7.2 on a Macbook Pro 2.4 GHz i5 with 8 GB of Ram. It only crashed after Logos did its latest update this morning during my devos. Bummer.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/316709#Comment_316709

My computer crashed 5 times with a Kernel Panic.

Wiki has Mac Troubleshooting => Kernel Panic

It only crashed after Logos did its latest update this morning during my devos.

Curious if MacBook Pro feels hot to touch ?

Keep Smiling [:)]