I find all of this negativity about the Christmas sales incredibly disappointing. Logos have every right to market and sell their products how they see fit. 

PIE for one have been incredibly blessed this sale season. Living overseas means huge postal costs (it is cheaper to have books shipped from the US than buy books on sale here in Australia) so to receive a good discount and not have to pay shipping is a blessing.

I understand not everyone can afford to buy stuff but why is that Logos' fault?

So, to Bob and Dan, my sales guy Caleb and whoever is involved in this sale, thank you. I have been able to build my pastoral library into quite a decent looking collection. 

toughski said:

I trust that you all had a Merry Christmas.

Christmas in my tribe was wonderful this year. There was very little of that materialism stuff and whole lots of family, friends, fellowship and food. It was good, old-fashioned memory making. There were plenty of moments to sit quietly in wonderment. 

toughski said:

Despite of these things, I chose to NOT participate in recent sales (they are very attractive) because I am concerned about a disconnect in priorities of users and LOGOS team. 

Perhaps Logos went all-out in a sales push to raise enough revenue to press forward with the development you so earnestly desire. I don't really know. It was brought to our attention many of the Bible add-ons had their prices dropped to $10. I strongly encourage you to get any of those Bible versions you need. It will show Logos you approve of the new pricing and possibly encourage more of it.

We have heard whispers of "something BIG" coming.  I do believe Logos is still committed to delivering on the features it has promised us. One thing I have always believed is; it will definitely take longer than any of us (Logos included) expect it to take. There may even be a couple features that have to wait until L5 or L6. I am thinking of Hebrew pronunciation here. I figure we will get it when we get it.

In 2011:

1. We have seen many of our resources make it to handheld devices.
2. The Logos Wiki has really matured. (With a lot of help from that undercover MVP Steve Clark.)
3. We saw Vyrso launch.
4. Proclaim is actively being tested by a number of churches.
5. Lots of new Logos training materials have appeared from Logos, Morris Proctor Seminars, John Fallahee, and that amazing Mark Barnes fellow.
6. Several video series have also been produced helping us learn Greek, Hebrew, Discourse Analysis and even the I-Beam of preaching.
7. Andrew Jones has helped Logos address the need for Catholic study materials and the organizing of appropriate resources.
8. MJ is helping with Catholics4Logos.
9. Logos employees now have Chai Tea at work. (For how long, only Dan can say.)
10. We received a gift of the Perseus Collections for FREE!
11. We actually have a working "Personal Book Builder" feature in Logos 4.
12. Our Logos account has a Wish List.
13. Our Logos account can display credit.
14. The sales focus has gone from what they think you want to asking "What do you want?"
15. Community Pricing titles typically graduate at $1 to $3 per book, and rather quickly, I might add.
16. Logos decided to open a Phoenix office amidst the Grand Canyon, the Painted Desert, the Petrified Forest, and a quick flight from Area 51.
17. added in light of Denise's post below: Logos has really made advancements on the Mac side of things. Enough so that I run L4 on both the Windows and Mac operating systems and I am reasonably content. [8-|]

I could go on but that is enough to convince me. I am better off today in my Logos world than I was this time last year. My wallet opens it's mouth with a big grin and screams "Yes! Logos, You're doin' fine!"

Denise Barnhart said:

ST, that mouser looks suspiciously like he's trafficing in yen. And no Japanese interlinear either (or Japanese for that matter).

I honestly chose him specifically for You. No kidding.  And I knew you would catch that and hoped you would mention it. (Thanks. for doing so.) Now maybe Bob Pritchet will go for the pile of Yen and deliver Japanese Bibles in Logos 4.

 

Denise Barnhart said:

Thank you!!! We have japanese at church that would really benefit from Logos.

And there are 127 million Japanese in Japan who could use Logos. Almost all of them read, all the time. Less than 3 million claim to be Christian in the broadest definition.

( I would point out Wikipedia's 99% literacy rate for Japan as important but Wikipedia also lists the USA as being 99% literate, which casts doubt on the reliability of Wiki's other claims in the article. Maybe all the illiterate Americans live in my neighborhood.)

 

George Somsel said:

They complain about teachers' salaries being too low

Oh, please, George, don't go there.......     Teachers are like Preachers and Prison Guards; they really don't do it for the money. They do it for the excitement! [:S] 

The funding thrown at public education rarely makes it's way down to the classroom teacher and students. Most is siphoned off by top brass, politicians and construction companies who know how to rig bids. Returning control to the local community (parents & taxpayers) is the sane thing to do.

Now why did i bother to answer your post? I know better! [:$]

MJ. Smith said:

Super Tramp said:

The funding thrown at public education rarely makes it's way down to the classroom teacher and students. Most is siphoned off by top brass, politicians and construction companies who know how to rig bids. Returning control to the local community (parents & taxpayers) is the sane thing to do.

While I am quick to note that expense per child does not correlate closely with quality of outcome, your cynicism does not match most of my experience.

I am basing my opinion on much that I have seen throughout the years plus clips that I saw of teachers in Wisconsin leading children in protest.  They are not interested in educating students, and I would have summarily fired each and every one who participated in that fiasco—if necessary, I would find an excuse that would stick to get rid of them.

toughski said:

Number 2 priority for L4 users was languishing for years, with no recent comment from the leadership (in contrast to CONSTANT word from Dan about some new marketing ploy)

Don't expect responses from Dan regarding programming—it's not his field.

toughski said:

I understand that programming takes time and any of time estimates should be treated with a grain of salt. I normally double the time estimate given and think it is very generous. (by the way, I am simply amazed what can be accomplished with $10000 and 2 days - has anyone seen Restaurant Impossible?) However, Sermon File Addon is a freebie, while those other projects make a ton of cash, so does this make it allright to go back on your word, time and time again?

While sermon file add-ins don't affect me, many have made numerous requests regarding this.

toughski said:

While it is nice to have wish lists, Perseus, freebies on Vyrso, Proclaim, bla-bla-bla, it was not the priority of users when  Logos4 first rolled out - feature parity with Libronix was. Yes, a large percentage of it has been achieved but there are numerous things still missing. LOGOS, let's get this done!

Wishlists are another item which have been frequently mentioned.

I hear ya toughski

MJ. Smith said:

my priorities are the right priorities.

[Y] Well stated, as expected.

I have really hesitated about posting anything after the lengthy Black Friday marketing issues. But although I don't agree with a lot of what toughski has said, I have some points of agreement.

I have been pleased with Logos as a program and the products they have produced. I would not at all label Logos as "intuitive", and I think a lot of folks would agree with that. But it is nonetheless an awesome program, and it is worthwhile taking the time and effort to learn.  I have not experienced any difficulties with its performance on my platform, but it must be amazingly frustrating to those who do, or who are waiting for specific parity issues or developments.

We all have our priorities and it must indeed be difficult to meet even the majority of expectations. There have been a significant number of what I feel are "distractions" to what Logos has stated in the past to be their primary mission. Logos seems to want to become all things to all people, to be involved in all kinds of different arms of development. I understand that separate divisions have been involved, but it does represent a division of focus. Would it be great if Logos could branch off into "this" or "that"? Yeah, sure. But there is maturity that comes in recognizing one's strengths and developing those strengths, rather than being involved in a hundred different things. Mature pastors, as in other fields of life, recognize that. And from my perspective, Logos has lost its focus and is diversifying onto too many paths. But that's their choice, and my opinion is only one of many perspectives, and it's THEIR business not mine. Its not a public company. If they enjoy the idea of such diversification, surely they have a right to do so.

I also feel that Logos has the right to offer whatever sales it wants to offer, and that I don't have a right to grumble that what I might particularly want isn't on sale.

Where it does seem Logos has really changed is in the area of marketing. And it HAS just gone berzerko this past year. That in itself is an issue of mild concern... but the nature of that marketing has become the major issue in my eyes. I don't want to open up previous discussions in this issue... it bothers some, and not others... and some feel that reflects a level of discernment or lack thereof among Logos' users. In general, I was pleased to see at least some sensitivity appear in the pricing wording which I think may have stemmed from our discussions at Thanksgiving. I thank Logos for listening to that extent. But some of the issues remain.

I am really surprised that no one, in the glow of the Christmas sales, has stopped to point out an illustration of these concerns. In Vyrso, for example, we had the Twelve Days of Vyrso. How was that advertised? It was promoted as 12 days of special 24-hour deals, that if not purchased, would expire at the end of each 24-hour period. If you didn't purchase the special during that time, you were out of luck, so if you wanted that special, you needed to act upon it. I'm sure many people bought those 24-hour deals based on those parameters. At the same time, it was advertised, "Check back on Christmas Day for another special deal".

Well, i did. And what was the special deal? "Oh, guess what? All those 24-hour deals that we said were going to only be available for those 24-hours? Oh, we were just kidding! You can get them all until Jan. 2!! Aren't we kind and generous???"

I'm sorry. I don't mean to be rude. i really don't. i even think it was well intentioned. But if you advertise that someone should buy something because the offer is only good for 24 hours, and that it will not be available after that point, and then later announce that it isn't actually so, that it will actually be available for an extended period of time after all... and most importantly... you knew that you were going to extend that time when you told people that it would only be good for 24 hours, please tell me, how is that not lying???? How is that not manipulative and dishonest?? Maybe I'm really missing something here, and if so, I apologize. But I would never accept that from my kids. From my spouse. From my pastor... as anything less than a lie designed to manipulate me. And I don't think most others on here would either. Yes, even Bob has said that all advertising is "manipulation". But does it have to be dishonest manipulation? I am not arguing this point because I ordered something and got burned (Vyrso has very very little of any interest to me, and such products are not the reason I got involved with Logos... Many of the "freebies" were free anyway -- all the time -- from other vendors, so even if I did have an interest, I wasn't particularly excited about the "deals"...and the fact that I can "search" through an Amish romance with the full power of my Logos library seems kind of a silly reason to make such a purchase or download to me... you can do it, but why in the world would you want to or need to??? But that's just my take, and its okay for others to think otherwise. We each have our reading/study styles, and there's no place for passing judgment on such things.).

But the reason i am raising this issue is just because it demonstrates a growing disregard for truth in speech and truth in advertising that some of us have seen over the past year. And if most of the folks on these forums can't see that, then I really don't know what to say. You either get it or you don't.

Yes, okay, we have been told (here in the forums) by many well-intentioned folks that Logos is not a "Christian" company. That there are no such things. Only people are Christians. That's mere semantics. We use such terminology all the time, and legitimately. We talk about "Christian" books, for example. Well, gee, books can't be Christians, so by such an argument, there is no such thing as a "Christian" book. Please. It is "Christian" because it espouses Christian themes or principles. Let's not play games with language to try to prove our perspectives, when we wouldn't consistently apply the same logic to the rest of our lives or language use. Language means what it means, and we all use the term "Christian" in this (acceptable) fashion. When a company claims that it has as its vision to operate under Christian principles, it rightly comes under scrutiny for the extent that it conforms to those claims... all the more so because such a claim of operating under such principles/integrity is a drawing card for one's business. To say later that such examination is not justified because there is no such thing as a "Christian" company is specious, as the company itself, by making such claims, has invited such evaluation. And Logos does a GREAT DEAL more than most other companies that reflects their Christian commitment. I commend them sincerely for that. And their intentions. 

You can argue that Logos is not doing anything more than wise, prevalent marketing techniques. I and others have claimed that is not the standard to which we should uphold. Even (as Denise wisely pointed out in the past) "secular" companies recognize the importance of their integrity, so I won't claim that our standards should be higher than the world's (I think they should be, but there is no need to make that judgment in this context). But the bottom of Logos's emails ask for feedback, citing the verse from Scripture about the importance of one's reputation, and people speaking well of you. I have no doubt that the extensive marketing hype has led to a great increase in sales, $ that I am confident Logos will use for its further development and in addressing the dreams/desires we all have for its development. But even in these forums, which include mostly Logos' fans and generally heavy users, we have heard significant grumbling about these marketing developments. What you DON'T have as much of an opportunity to hear, is an answer to another question... how many sales or customers have been lost or are gradually disconnecting from Logos as a result of this development? I can not provide statistics as no one can, but anecdotally, I am hearing about a lot... and I have a very, very small circle... I really feel that Logos is significantly damaging its reputation.

And that concerns me... because I love Logos, its product, and the people behind it. But I want to be able to trust Logos when a sales person tells me something. I don't feel that I can do that anymore. I don't feel that I can trust an offer to be honest... golly, I don't feel anymore that I can trust Logos' advertisements not to lie to me. I don't even feel all that comfortable about this end of season "private sale"... so much hype... its so BIG. REALLY BIG... according to Dan. What is it? Call us and talk with us. We'll spend time with you. We'll talk about your needs. Tell us what you want to buy, and we'll tell you the very best price we can offer that to you.

Ummm... Logos (at least in my experience)... has ALWAYS done that. That's why so many have said its always wisest to call a rep to get the best prices/deals. So unless I'm missing something (truly, maybe I am) this "kinder, gentler Logos" that is being presented in the blog posting really sounds a lot like smoke and mirrors to me to encourage just a bit more buying before the end of the year.

And I hate that. Not that they are making this "offer". But because I have become so cynical.

2011 has indeed been the Year of Marketing. My New Year's resolution is that I have turned off all avenues of marketing, and will no longer participate in Logos sales. I have only a few resources I still would like to purchase from Logos, and I think I can probably figure out how to do that.

Without the hype.

 

EmileB, the most frustrating thing to me is that we are absolutely powerless to do anything about it. We are the minority. I'm a 13 year customer but I've learned I'll get dogpiled if I question the sales methods of Logos, so I stay quiet most of the time.

EmileB said:

And that concerns me... because I love Logos, its product, and the people behind it. But I want to be able to trust Logos when a sales person tells me something. I don't feel that I can do that anymore.

Having worked in sales for a number of years I suspect that this is currently just as much of a struggle for Logos as it is for their customers. Dan has already indicated that things are changing, I just think that it will be a while before it all makes sense.

Shawn Drewett said:

EmileB, the most frustrating thing to me is that we are absolutely powerless to do anything about it. We are the minority. I'm a 13 year customer but I've learned I'll get dogpiled if I question the sales methods of Logos, so I stay quiet most of the time.

Hi Shawn 

I appreciate how you feel but sometimes we need to keep speaking in the face of adversity! 

Without dog-piling or making anyone feel their opinions don't count, here are a few real-world facts that trump most feelings.

It takes money to keep development rolling.

Money comes from sales. If not from you, then someone else.

If you won't buy a book for $1 Logos must produce something new (and profitable.)

Be happy you have everything you want. Many (Fred Morgan comes to mind) have been waiting for YEARS and still don't see their desired resources even hinted at. It took decades for Logos to publish Catholic works in earnest. Calvin 500 Collection only came out recently. Imagine how the Calvinists, Anabaptists, Catholics and Pentecostals would feel if Logos dropped all production of new resources because you have your plate full.

To require Logos to cease profit-seeking activities and magically guess what resources you want (for less than $1 per volume,) and then, and only then, contact you with this offering.... Well that is just plain selfish. There are others who want Proclaim. There are readers who like Vyrso books. Many use their Androids and iPads more than their computers. Fred Morgan is still waiting for Anabaptist works..

The Sci-Fi movie Metropolis depicts an enslaved population toiling underground for the sole benefit of the leisure class living topside. If the Logos developers, scanners, text entry, book keepers, and sales would only work for nothing, then Logos could give me what they owe me without all that greedy sales stuff.[:@]

[*-)] Thanks for letting me vent, at nobody in particular.

MJ. Smith said:

<self-censored remarks of frustration / annoyance to be added by the readers' imagination>

Tsk, tsk, MJ.  I heard that !  [:$]

MJ. Smith said:

notes

Notes, Notes? Did somebody say NOTES?

Coming in 2012 to an L4 machine near you. Caveat: sometimes people do leak misinformation.

Denise Barnhart said:

Wow, Bob, talk about a jaw-dropper. MJ's been carrying a lot of water for Logos (you). Not much else to say.

Oh, it has paid off royally. A lot of what MJ has asked for has become reality.

Now, if only we can get MJ to push for Japanese in Logos 4. I see she is helping the Cambodians.