According to this book Dr. Hunt says that relying on the historical evidence that the Roman Church and her Papa are/is the beast and A/C.
Haven't read the book yet.
Can anyone advise re: Hunt's thesis or the subject?
mm
http://www.amazon.com/Woman-Rides-Beast-Catholic-Church/dp/1565071999/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324525280&sr=8-1
According to this book Dr. Hunt says that relying on the historical evidence that the Roman Church and her Papa are/is the beast and A/C. Haven't read the book yet. Can anyone advise re: Hunt's thesis or the subject? mm http://www.amazon.com/Woman-Rides-Beast-Catholic-Church/dp/1565071999/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324525280&sr=8-1
It's nothing new. This has been propounded long ago. I wouldn't give much credence to it. Throughout the history of the interpretation of Revelation many have pointed to different antichrists and have attempted the impossible task of understanding the figures of Revelation as being distinct historical personages or groups such as the Roman Catholic Church, Islam, the European Union, etc. They seem never to have read Mt 24.3-8 (or they don't believe it).
Can anyone advise re: Hunt's thesis or the subject? mm http://www.amazon.com/Woman-Rides-Beast-Catholic-Church/dp/1565071999/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324525280&sr=8-1
As George has said, Dave hunt did not originate any of this idea. Alexander Hislop wrote The Two Babylons trying to establish such a connection. There have been rather harsh statements on all sides of the religious debates. While some historical charges made against Martin Luther, various Popes, Pentecostalism, early Mormonism, and every other sectarianism might have a grain of truth somewhere in it, many such charges are frequently spawned from fertile imaginations or downright dishonestly.
Let me give you a little example how this works: I read your sign off in the thread above. I assume the "mm" refers to "Milkman" and nothing more. If I were of a paranoid and suspicious nature I could run all over the forums claiming you secretly are a Wiccan because they use that as a particular greeting. (At this point I will not further elaborate because the evil goes far beyond decency of talk among Christians.) My point is, there is no shortage of ignorance and sensationalism.
A certain man visits me on my porch sharing the wildest conspiracy theories and wacked out doctrines he has run across and embraced. He informed me I must reject all government authority because there is a "grand Jewish conspiracy for world domination" run by the Jesuits.... Yeah, you heard him right; those Jewish Illuminati that call themselves "Jesuits."
The forums are not the right place to debate who the anit-christ is, if birth control is scriptural [;)], when the "Rapture" is, if the President or Billy Graham are truly saved, if vaccinations and blood transfusions are evil, or even which Bible version is the real word of God.
I have enjoyed several of Dave Hunt's books. He does tend to stir up debates.
I always suggest people read something they wonder about rather than rely on someone else to interpret. This applies both to Revelation and Hunt's book. Actually one should read the Gospel of John John's letters and then Revelation. And then read Hunt's book. In that order.
People who read the commentary before the book remind me of students who settled for Cliff Notes instead of an education.
Notice one more thing about the reviews on Amazon for this book. They are all polarized at each end of the spectrum. When I see that I figure it is either a diatribe or a book I really ought to read. I observed the same situation concerning Richard Fugate's What the Biblel Says About Child Training.
As noted by others, this theory has been around at least since 1613 if you wish to do a study of the history and development.
My question is whether you want information on the interpretation of Revelation or if you want resources on a single point of a single interpretation. if the former see Chilton, David. 1987, 1990. Days of Vengeance: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation. Ft. Worth, TX: Dominion Press. ISBN 0-930462-09-2..
Actually one should read the Gospel of John John's letters and then Revelation. And then read Hunt's book. In that order.
[Y]
That position (called historicism) was the standard view of Protestantism until the end of the nineteenth century, but all major views will be well represented in the Revelation Classic commentaries collection if/when it ever gets published (which I'm in at $50 on):
http://www.logos.com/product/8522/classic-commentaries-and-studies-on-revelation
Perhaps ignoring Hunt's book would be best.
My guess is that Milkman was curious to see how many replies it would take before hitting the thumbs down response. Just a guess.
Actually one should read the Gospel of John John's letters and then Revelation. And then read Hunt's book. In that order. Perhaps ignoring Hunt's book would be best.
I can not speak for Milkman's reasons but he can choose my opinionated response based on his own motivation:
There are many resources already in Logos that deal with different views on key doctrines. The benefit of these resources is each perspective is represented by a write who holds that perspective to be the correct one. I always question the reliability of someone who speaks on behalf of their enemy. Anti-Semites in the 1930's would claim Jews ate their own young.
Thanks for all the replies.
I'll pick up the book and read it with a critical mind. I know where I stand regarding the "end-time" scenario thing. It may be a book that once read and then shelved. At least it will give some historical documentation so I can see if he has reported the facts faithfully.
My inquiry was never intended to be a debate on "who do you think the A/C is?" It was "what do you think of Hunt's book?" if you have read that particular book.
I'm not much into the whole conspiracy thing - been there, done it. A super (tramp) waste of time to follow all the theories.
I've been doing an indepth study of Daniel. Hunt's book came up and I thought maybe a valuable read.
I have more than enough commentaries on both Daniel & Revelation [who doesn't that owns L4 resources ]
Haven't seen but one thumbs down and another comment to disregard the book. Like I said above, I'll read it and be a bit more informed about how Hunt approaches the subject which will help me later to give an intelligent? response to anyone who may ask, "Have you read Dave Hunt's book?"
Thanks again and maybe I'll suggest that book for a L4 resource.
AKA milk man and not the other sign-off. Merry Christmas to all of you.
I'll pick up the book and read it with a critical mind. I know where I stand regarding the "end-time" scenario thing. It may be a book that once read and then shelved. At least it will give some historical documentation so I can see if he has reported the facts faithfully.…I've been doing an indepth study of Daniel. Hunt's book came up and I thought maybe a valuable read.
Actually, he's insignificant. I wouldn't bother to waste my time on him. You've already told me everything I need to know about him.
FWIW:
Because there have been so many attempts to identify the Man of Sin, Dr. Kim Riddlebarger calls this popular pasttime, "Pin the Tail on the Antichrist." [:)]
cf.: http://www.modernreformation.org/default.php?page=articledisplay&var1=ArtRead&var2=744&var3=issuedisplay&var4=IssRead&var5=80 and http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/man-of-sin-now-available/
Riddlebarger's book is a good book if you agree with his end-time view.
. . . sounds like you are saying it is not a good book if you don't agree . . . [;)]
That's true, mm, but I was just trying to share his clever aphorism more than anything else.
Actually, I found Anthony Hoekema's The Bible and the Future to be far more convincing re: amillennialism (and I still wish we could get it in L4).
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Future-Anthony-Hoekema/dp/0802808514/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324580404&sr=8-1
Hey Dan,
Not at all. One could be a pre-mill and still think it's a good book. Well written and strong on conviction but just disagree with his view. I could read an author's view of dispensationalism, enjoy his arguments, even like is examples, but not agree with his end time view.
Hoekema's book, actually his trilogy is not only a 'good read' but packed with scripture and insight. Pretty well agree with him in most aspects.
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Future-Anthony-Hoekema/dp/0802808514/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1324581462&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Created-Gods-Image-Anthony-Hoekema/dp/0802808506/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1324581462&sr=1-2
http://www.amazon.com/Saved-Grace-Anthony-Hoekema/dp/0802808573/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1324581462&sr=1-3
read it with a critical mind.
Merry Christmas Milkman
Hi there
Dave Hunt's books are worth reading and he has written quite a few. Apart from the title mentioned in this thread (which I have on my shelf), they include 'The Seduction of Christianity' referring to the charismatic movement, 'A Cup of Trembling' addressing the importance of Jerusalem and more recently "What Love is this?" addressing aspects of Calvinism.
His approach is that of a fairly conservative evangelical who holds to the view that RCism is incompatible with biblical Cristianity. To that end he accepts the view of Luther and Calvin regarding the Pope as anti-christ. This is reflected in 'Woman rides the Beast' and can be a little confronting in today's liberal environment. Nevertheless, whether you agree with him or not, he writes well - and he is not a conspiracy theorist nor is he a fruitcake.
I would recommend his books be made available on Logos - and more information is available at his website - http://www.thebereancall.org/ Have a Happy Christmas ! Paul
This is a link for all of you who need your weekly antichrist fix. As you can see the profits just keep rolling in. http://www.armageddonbooks.com/anti.html
It is the same as Hunts Rapture books, if the first date is not right, don´t worry, the next one is bound to be right, at least right enough to sell more books to the those needing to fan the rapture mania flames. [;)]
This is a link for all of you who need your weekly antichrist fix. As you can see the profits just keep rolling in. http://www.armageddonbooks.com/anti.html It is the same as Hunts Rapture books, if the first date is not right, don´t worry, the next one is bound to be right, at least right enough to sell more books to the those needing to fan the rapture mania flames.
It is the same as Hunts Rapture books, if the first date is not right, don´t worry, the next one is bound to be right, at least right enough to sell more books to the those needing to fan the rapture mania flames.
Dr. Rach,
Took the link; it's both laughable and abominable. Unfortunately, people truly buy that drivel.
db
It is easy to lump everybody together and dispense with the whole lot. That is the usual way of handling people we don't agree with. But I do not recall Dave Hunt ever being a "date-setter" in the fashion of Harold Camping. I believe Hal Lindsey comes much closer and I still would like to have his books in Logos too.
The end times prophecy obsession of the last century is no less important than the dispensationalism rage preceding it, or the debate over indulgences in Luther's time. It is important to recognize there are always abusers who can run with an important question of doctrine and mislead the general populace. But we shouldn't be mocking the idea of anti-Christ because the initial warning about counterfeits came from the One true Christ.
As bizarre as I find snake-handling in worship service, I think a good course of study for a ThD will touch on it. Same for the Shakers, the date-setters, predestination, universalism, new revelations, Zionism, good seed/bad seed, Mother God, adventism, Saint of the day, vicarious baptism, Holiness........ All these doctrines are viewed by others as kooky. A good student of theology needs to know about all of these doctrines. I commend Milkman for his interest.
btw: I only glanced at the website you linked to and saw enough on the first page to turn my stomach. It looked like the "podcast of the week" for the latest celebrity gossip on Mr. A-C.
There is an anti-christ behind every bush.
The only reason that the dates are not coming true is because the New World Order reads the books first and changes the dates, just to make the people who write them look stupid [;)]
As bizarre as I find snake-handling in worship service, I think a good course of study for a ThD will touch on it.
Why?
As bizarre as I find snake-handling in worship service, I think a good course of study for a ThD will touch on it. Why?
Why I find snake handling in church a bizarre doctrine? Or why should a ThD be familiar with it?
The former: Because I view it just as much an abuse of authority (they are claiming Apostolic authority here but for no good end) as Moses striking the rock a second time and "Baldy" cursing the kids and she-bears killing them.
The later: Because when confronted with different doctrines it is better to have an answer for some inquiring soul than to dismiss them as just a bunch of dumb hillbillies that need a good bite from a mean rattlesnake. The guy asking could very well have grown up in that church. We do have some snake handlers in the Kiamichi Mountains in SE Oklahoma.
But then again, it probably matters what you use your theology education for. One cannot be all things to all people.
While we are on the subject, there is something that has always bothered me.
Why is it that when Christ makes it plain in Matthew 24 who will leave when the Lord comes, that just about every "rapture writer" gets it backwards?
"For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left."
Matthew 24:37–41
I vote for letting them get bitten. We don't teach about a flat earth either.
We don't teach about a flat earth either.
True, but are their churches full of people dancing around with flat earth maps...
These threads seem to be used as an excuse for foolishness and stupidity rather than Logos related discussion.
"Please treat each other with the love,courtesy, respect, and kindness that you would if you were sitting in yourliving room together." ~ Phil Gons, Logos Bible Software
"Please keep your discussions focused on Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc."
- not childish banter, not endless corny and irrelevant jokes, not referring to fellow believers as having a 'mania' because of their views on end-times (views I do not share BTW, but don't feel the need to characterize in an uncharitable manner either), not making ourselves look good at the expense of people who have differing practices and tend to live in mountainous regions, or wishing them harm (whether in jest or not) etc etc. It's always the same few people who think that making others look stupid somehow makes them look good. Get over it.
Sorry you feel that way Dean. My teachers always said there was never a stupid question but the one that was not asked. And if we would ban all the joking from these forums I would suggest we start with banning humor from the pulpits first. Humor is an excellent tool for communication.
If the foolishness you allege lies in the doctrinal questions implied, just remember, some Logos users think being baptized in the name of Jesus (instead of Yeshua) guarantees damnation, while other Logos users believe attending church on a Sunday is, at the least, sinful. I hope you are not marginalizing the Logos users who really DO believe the woman riding the dragon in Revelation represents the Catholic Church.
Virtually all of men's thoughts on God are but foolishness. Being able to scrutinize our lofty thoughts in light of what the Bible has to say is the benefit of Logos.The World has always tried to cloud the truth from our vision. We may already find ourselves believing lies. Many have posted how they have been freed from deception by better Bible study. Logos is made for foolish and stupid people who no longer want to remain as such.
I tend to be more concerned that a ThD have an understanding of the breadth of Christianity - East and West through history. For most small American groups, it is the ability to discover what they believe and why that a ThD. should know. Which is why Logos needs to fill in the gaps in its history offering - church history, Bible interpretation history, theological history, liturgical history ...
I know of one site that comes close ... and more embarrassing, it's a catholic convert.[:$] This is a why I think Logos should have more resources covering reasoning skills for the Christian context ... and an argument mapping capability.
I tend to be more concerned that a ThD
This is further evidence of why Logos needs to have a very broad content. I concur that your focus of a theology education is important. But the focus needs to be relevant to purpose of the education. Your East-West history may not be important to a theologian serving a Hmong group transplanted to Michigan. Maybe I could think of a few reasons why it would but there are many areas of service and not enough time to study for all of them.
I am very happy Logos has many original language study materials. Like others have said today, I don't need some of this and I never will. Trust me, you won't be consulting me on Hebrew. Likewise, if my neighbor needs serious spiritual counseling, I will seek out a qualified counselor for them. I don't diffuse bombs either.
The broader the education, the better. The bigger the Logos library, the better. But we gotta have some focus here!
Good stuff [Y]
This is a why I think Logos should have more resources covering reasoning skills for the Christian context
+1 [Y]
Come now, let us reason together says the LORD.
Why is it that when Christ makes it plain in Matthew 24
Because ther are at least three ways of reading Matthew 24 and at least two of them have got to be wrong.
1) Some will say Matthew 24 is entirely about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD
2) Some will say Matthew 24 is entirely about the final days of teh Tribulation
3) Some will say Matthew 24 has two prophecies; the first about 70 AD and the second about the end times.
4) Others say........
And "No, I'm not gonna discuss which one is obvious to me"
This is a why I think Logos should have more resources covering reasoning skills for the Christian context ... and an argument mapping capability.
slipped that one by me in an edit
I agree 100% and that bolsters my earlier comment. I would love to dump Horace Mann in favor of Comenius, the Trivium, the Quadrivium, and Martin Luther. An education without morals and purpose is a dangerous thing.
[:D]
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