NASB Interlinear
Is there an available NASB interlinear with the Greek? The ESV interlinear does not cut it for me.
Comments
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The NASB95 has interlinear Strong's numbers available, which are keyed to different Grk+Heb texts than the KJV with interlinear Strong's.
If you want a "true interlinear" with Greek/Heb and English, where the English is based on the NASB translation, I don't believe one is available either in Libronix or in print.
Libronix does have several other interlinears, with differing features and original text bases - the only other one that is a Reverse Interlinear is the NRSV. What is it about the ESV RevInt that does not work for you?
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
What's realy needed is a KJV Reverse Interlinear. A KJV with the same features found in the ESV Reverse Interlinear. Now that would be great!
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AMG's Complete Word Study Bible has all but the orig lang text.
Newberry Interlinear gives the orig TR text, but not in RevInt sequence.
Together, they come very close to a KJV RevInt=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
JeffersonMarshall said:
Is there an available NASB interlinear with the Greek?
No.
The NASB95 has a hidden Greek text but not for every word with a Strong's number. Right click, select "Navigate to Associated Word", and it will link to the Greek text in NA27. But you can see the Greek word when you hover if you have set the Greek data type (in Keylink Options) to "describe" or "Preview" in a tip window. There is no correponding facility for the OT.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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You can use the strongs numbers to keylink directly to strongs-# based lexical aids for both the OT & NT
Double click does it.=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
I possess the NASB Interlinear Greek-English NT with a Literal English Translation by Alfred Marshall, published by Regency Reference Library an imprint of Zondervan Publishing House (ISBN 0-310-45240-6).
The ESV renderings in most cases do not literally reflect the Greek as accurately as the NASB.
Case in point, the ESV of Ephesians 5:19 says, "addressing one another in vpsalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart" whereas the NASB says, speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and songs spiritual, singing and psalming (or, making melody) in the hearts of you to the Lord."
The NASB accurately rules out the false use of mechanical instruments in worship, whereas the ESV 'might' and is falsely construed to allow mechanical instruments, in addition to the heart in "making melody."
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JeffersonMarshall said:
The NASB accurately rules out the false use of mechanical instruments in worship, whereas the ESV 'might' and is falsely construed to allow mechanical instruments, in addition to the heart in "making melody."
1 Rejoice in the Lord, O you righteous.Praise befits the upright.2 Praise the Lord with the lyre;make melody to him with the harp of ten strings.3 Sing to him a new song;play skillfully on the strings, with loud shouts.george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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JeffersonMarshall said:
I possess the NASB Interlinear Greek-English NT with a Literal English Translation by Alfred Marshall, published by Regency Reference Library an imprint of Zondervan Publishing House (ISBN 0-310-45240-6).
Cool! Wish I had one.
JeffersonMarshall said:The NASB accurately rules out the false use of mechanical instruments in worship, whereas the ESV 'might' and is falsely construed to allow mechanical instruments, in addition to the heart in "making melody."
I agree with you on the point of NASB being the most literal translation we have in the English language but take a look how it reads what George quoted from NRSV:
1 Sing for joy in the LORD, O you righteous ones;
Praise is becoming to the upright.
2 Give thanks to the LORD with the lyre;
Sing praises to Him with a harp of ten strings.
3 Sing to Him a new song;
Play skillfully with a shout of joy.
Psalm 33: 1-3
Scripture taken from the NEW AMERICAN STANDARD BIBLE®,
Copyright © 1960,1962,1963,1968,1971,1972,1973,1975,1977,1995
by The Lockman Foundation. Used by permission.Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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JeffersonMarshall said:
The NASB accurately rules out the false use of mechanical instruments in worship, whereas the ESV 'might' and is falsely construed to allow mechanical instruments, in addition to the heart in "making melody."
Those ESV translators...always adding things to the text...
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I think you can check online for it. I was just using my example to show the discrepancy. But I will respond to the remarks.
It is interesting that the Old Testament is used to support the use of Mechanical instruments. Notice that Psalm 33:1-3 says, "Sing for joy to the Lord....sing praises to Him ... sing to Him."
Nowhere in the New Testament does not it say "PLAY" an instrument in praise to God. You will have to do too much fancy footwork and a twisting of the text to do what you will in worship as opposed to God's will. The command is that we (i.e every human) must sing together (reciprocity ) in praise to God in worship.
If you want to bring forward musical instruments that David invented (Amos 6:5) [which were never used in the Sanctuary or the Holy of Holies], then you need to bring forward the other acts of worship as well.
If it is the case and an imperative that we should play a melody while we sing a melody, everyone should play an instrument in worship, in order not to be in error. Why? Well, everyone has to sing together in order to edify each other and praise God.
Notice that an instrument cannot exercize wisdom to teach and admonish; the instrument cannot express a person's thankfulness from within his/her heart, in addition to his/her heart either (Colossians 3:16).
The instrument cannot fulfill 1 Corinthians 14:15 and Hebrews 13:15 either. God tells us what and where to sing and what to use to sing (voice, in the individual heart and in the midst [heart] of the assembly). If you go back to the Ephesians 5:15-19 text, you cannot miss the implications, unless you want to.
To be sure, you must ask and answer, "Is singing a spiritual exercize and if it is, is Christ among us when we sing (Matthew 18:20; Hebrew 2:12)?
What would Jesus the Christ be doing in our worship service? Would you be so sure He is singing? Singing and Playing? Playing?
I pray that this helps bring clarity.
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I appreciate your passion Jefferson. My younger brother is a preacher who graduated from a non-instrumental Church of Christ college. We have had a lot of interesting discussions about instrumental music.
I don't draw as strong a line of demarcation between the Old Covenant & The New as most Christians (I guess I embrace my Jewish ancestry rather tightly.)
I didn't mean to go off-topic from the original post. It's just that I enjoy very much hearing others talk about God's Word even if I see it differently. Still, I appreciate your passion.
Now if I can convince Logos to add a NASB Reverse Interlinear I'll be pleased as pie! Wanna help me George? Until then I will have to use the method Dave Hooton mentioned in an earlier post.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
I appreciate your passion Jefferson. My younger brother is a preacher who graduated from a non-instrumental Church of Christ college. We have had a lot of interesting discussions about instrumental music.
I don't draw as strong a line of demarcation between the Old Covenant & The New as most Christians (I guess I embrace my Jewish ancestry rather tightly.)
I didn't mean to go off-topic from the original post. It's just that I enjoy very much hearing others talk about God's Word even if I see it differently. Still, I appreciate your passion.
Now if I can convince Logos to add a NASB Reverse Interlinear I'll be pleased as pie! Wanna help me George? Until then I will have to use the method Dave Hooton mentioned in an earlier post.
Surely you jest ! I would be more likely to encourage them to burn all interlinears.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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It sounds like you're saying that we shouldn't use instruments because the NT doesn't mention them.
Am I following you?
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Yes, a NASB Reverse Interlinear would be quite the thing to possess. I will support an effort to have this.
I too enjoy hearing people talk about God's word, but I take the position of looking at the text in light of the entire Bible (OT and NT). I pray that you continue to enjoy those valued moments with your brother.
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Yes. There is absolutely no biblical support for musical instruments in the NT worship.
Since it is conceded that it is not mentioned, why use it?
My previous post should suffice (asking about the who[m], when, what, why, where and how, will go a long way in clarification the aforementioned post).
If there is a need for me to elaborate, I will be happy to do so.
I am not sure if this is the right forum for the discussion. If it is, GREAT. Someone let me know.
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JeffersonMarshall said:
Yes. There is absolutely no biblical support for musical instruments in the NT worship.
Since it is conceded that it is not mentioned, why use it?
My previous post should suffice (asking about the who[m], when, what, why, where and how, will go a long way in clarification the aforementioned post).
If there is a need for me to elaborate, I will be happy to do so.
I am not sure if this is the right forum for the discussion. If it is, GREAT. Someone let me know.
I don't think we should use toilets since it doesn't mention them in the NT. Also, never eat a tomato since that was a new world plant and therefore unknown in the NT times (same for potatos).
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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When I first joined I made the same mistake that you have (different topic).
No, this forum is not the place for theological debate
The purpose of the forum is to discuss the use of libronix.
It is incumbent upon all of us to recognize that there are some widely different opinions represented in the universe of libronix owners - and moreso than in most "random" groups, most of us are already pretty committed to our various understandings.
So, that makes ir fertle ground for Satan to sew divisiveness.
Let's try to avoid controversy, and let the love of Christ CONSTRAIN us.
"That we should be to His glory. "=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Thank you for the clarification.
Hopefully we can get the NASB interlinear or Reverse Interlinear in the near future.
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My church uses the NKJV and I find that the NKJV is just too wordy. I use a 77 NASB (print version) and as of lately I use an ESV. I have to say from the English standpoint I believe both are the best as far as readability in the English language. Some of us on here use Greek tools, but are weak in Greek. With that said, it is interesting that high profile pastors with Doctorate degrees use all 3 versions mentioned. I actually rank NASB as the best and ESV as second in the modern vernacular. I actually thought both texts were derived from the line of Alexandrian Greek as opposed to Textus Receptus. While I don't believe this forum is for theological debates, I do enjoy reading your post. I would like to see the NASB-Greek interlinear. Anyway, I think of lexicons as great help when looking at greek words and their semantic nuances/synonyms.
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JeffersonMarshall said:
The instrument cannot fulfill 1 Corinthians 14:15 and Hebrews 13:15 either. God tells us what and where to sing and what to use to sing (voice, in the individual heart and in the midst [heart] of the assembly). If you go back to the Ephesians 5:15-19 text, you cannot miss the implications, unless you want to.
I agree that there is no direct support for using musical instruments in the NT but note 1 Co 14:7 (NET):
"It is similar for lifeless things that make a sound, like a flute or harp. Unless they make a distinction in the notes, how can what is played on the flute or harp be understood?".So their utility is recognised - more importantly their use is not forbidden. A lifeless instrument can be played to convey something very meaningful. The trumpet solo in Handel's Messiah is awesome. Surely one can allow that God may anoint both players and singers in the heart and in the midst of the assembly? You see, Eph 5:19 "speaking" can mean "to utter/emit articulate sound waves" whilst the second part "singing" is clearly using the voice.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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JeffersonMarshall said:
The ESV renderings in most cases do not literally reflect the Greek as accurately as the NASB.
If that is the NASB (as opposed to NASB95) in Eph 5:19 then the second part is not literal as the Greek word for "hearts" is singular. "Addressing" is allowed by the Greek word as I mentioned earlier.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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JeffersonMarshall said:
Yes. There is absolutely no biblical support for musical instruments in the NT worship.
Since it is conceded that it is not mentioned, why use it?
Then why use Bible software? Its use isn't supported in the Bible either.
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Jim stated that this is not the forum for a theological discussion and as such I will comply and differ to my previous posts.
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JeffersonMarshall said:
Jim stated that this is not the forum for a theological discussion and as such I will comply and differ to my previous posts.
Jim is correct - many thanka for honoring this. We all need to remember this - I too sometimes fall into the trap of responding to details that are not related to Logos and its software.
Blessings,
Floyd
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Thank you!
Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; (Php 1:27, NASB95)
Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, (1 Pe 1:22-23, NKJV)
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. (Php 4:8, ESV)
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
If I remember correctly, when Logos brought out the ESV Reverse Interlinear, they made the statement that they intended to eventually produce reverse interlinears for all/most of the major translations. Since that time, I have been patiently waiting for the NASB Reverse Interlinear. I would sign up for it today if it were put on pre-pub.
joh
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Interesting; everyone is suppose to stick to topic and you are reciting scripture. Don't get me wrong I love the Bible and you can quote scripture all day long in any post in any topic and not offend me; though, to tell everyone that they cannot express their particular understanding of scripture and throw fire on the conversation only to then give a sermon is a bit of a contradiction.
You made it clear that we are to stick to topic and not deviate at all; I guess this does not apply to you?
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Floyd Johnson said:JeffersonMarshall said:
Jim stated that this is not the forum for a theological discussion and as such I will comply and differ to my previous posts.
Jim is correct - many thanka for honoring this. We all need to remember this - I too sometimes fall into the trap of responding to details that are not related to Logos and its software.
Blessings,
Floyd
...and it just started to be interesting [:(]
Sometimes I think, why it is so touchy (is it right English word?) to speak about all different opinions? Why we should be so dismissive to hear a different opinions? If I see the other side of the discussion honors the Word of God as I do, just have a different opinion, I am glad we can touch the subject without being so afraid of it. Of course it should be just "spice" and not "meat" of the Logos forums. Let us be free and open with our different views...
" 15All of us, then, who are maturea should take such a view of things.b And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.c [:)]16Only let us live up to what we have already attained."
The Holy Bible : Today's New International Version. 2005 (Php 3:15-16). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Bohuslav
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
...and it just started to be interesting
Sometimes I think, why it is so touchy (is it right English word?) to speak about all different opinions? Why we should be so dismissive to hear a different opinions? If I see the other side of the discussion honors the Word of God as I do, just have a different opinion, I am glad we can touch the subject without being so afraid of it. Of course it should be just "spice" and not "meat" of the Logos forums. Let us be free and open with our different views...
Good point, Bohuslav
Why can we not discuss differing opinions as mature adults (perhaps that is the problem, we can not alway discuss opinions like mature adults). When a discussion degenerates to name-calling and insults, it is time to terminate, but up to that point, most discussions are quite interesting and informative.
Jack
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JackCaviness said:
Why can we not discuss differing opinions as mature adults (perhaps that is the problem, we can not alway discuss opinions like mature adults). When a discussion degenerates to name-calling and insults, it is time to terminate, but up to that point, most discussions are quite interesting and informative.
Jack
Good points Brother Jack,
You know by the many times I've gone awry on the forums that I enjoy a good discussion. There once was a chat group on MSN called "A God's Fight" where "people of every faith & no faith" (as Prez Obama likes to say) would wile away the hours debating. It was a thouroughly wonderful waste of time. The chat room is a better place for off-the-cuff remarks because they are soon buried and forgotten. The forum is not a good place to memorialize our disagreements. But it can be expected that the likes of us will always have a thought or word to add. Every now and then those quotes are worth a whole day of reading. Getting back on topic :Yes, a NASB Reverse Interlinear would be nice.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I had to respond to this.
Sorry "hearts" was a typo. It should be "heart." Also "Addressing" is allowed by the greek word.
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This too, needs clarification and then this would be my last on this post.
There is absolutely NO indirect or direct support for the use of musical instruments in worship. "Speaking" does not apply to instruments but to the human and his vocal chords, which express intelligible words, NOT sounds, of gratitude to God.
Please pay close attention, again, to my previous posts on the subject, which amplifies the point that it is NOT playing that vocally addresses or speaks, but people who possess the capacity to reason and speak (address).
Again do not forget that we worship God, we do NOT entertain ourselves. God is the "audience" or object of our worship, not what we desire.
Again, let me be clear. IF it is an imperative for musical instruments in worship to God, then ALL must sing and all MUST play an instrument for it to be accepted by God for musical instruments to be. This, none of the denominational world does, and thus are in error.
We all MUST sing. None of the verses support the idea to have some singing, or some singing and others playing, or some playing. All MUST sing, and ALL can carryout the act of singing.
If we all take things to there logical conclusion, then adhering to the scriptures is so simple. Just remove self from the picture and you should be able to see God's will more clearly.
Have a great weekend all.0 -
JeffersonMarshall said:
Again do not forget that we worship God, we do NOT entertain ourselves. God is the "audience" or object of our worship, not what we desire.
Yes, I like to say to our congregation that during the worship, there is just one listener, all others are worshipers. When I said it the first time, people looked kind of... surprised [:O]
Bohuslav
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JeffersonMarshall said:
There is absolutely NO indirect or direct support for the use of musical instruments in worship.
6 Then I saw between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders a Lamb standing as if it had been slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of the one who was seated on the throne. 8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 They sing a new song:“You are worthy to take the scrolland to open its seals,for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for Godsaints from every tribe and language and people and nation;10 you have made them to be a kingdom and priests serving our God,and they will reign on earth.”george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:JeffersonMarshall said:
There is absolutely NO indirect or direct support for the use of musical instruments in worship.
6 Then I saw between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders a Lamb standing as if it had been slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of the one who was seated on the throne. 8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 They sing a new song:“You are worthy to take the scrolland to open its seals,for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for Godsaints from every tribe and language and people and nation;10 you have made them to be a kingdom and priests serving our God,and they will reign on earth.”The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Re 5:6-10). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.And don't forget that you can't eat potato, tomato or corn or use a toilet since it isn't in scripture.
Nice Scripture Georg. I like it very much. It shows true reverence and awe, modern Christians tend to loose. We are just too egocentric in our generation.
But to your comment: just to complicate it, there were no potatoes in both NT, and OT. But we have an instruments in the OT in many places. So, we would have to find an example of a thing which had been in the OT but not mentioned in the NT, and we have a good reason to use it. Nothing so far computed in my brain for that matter [H]
Bohuslav
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George Somsel said:
And don't forget that you can't eat potato, tomato or corn or use a toilet since it isn't in scripture.
George while i agree the whole of life is worship, i think jefferson is referring to worship in a more technical sense. One can argue what about micro phones, is that allowed since preaching is part of worship? But i think i get his point, eating potato, tomato or corn or the use of a toilet is not worship within the context he is speaking of - come on now. I suspect he is of a Reformed persuasion or coming at it from a particular Reformed perspective. If that is the case the point about micro phones is a valid one as in the Reform tradition Preaching is also worship.
I love the Reformed faith & i think they try to be faithful to scripture (I affirm the essentials of the Reform faith though i would not go that far). However that said i would have loved to hear how Jefferson would have handle or how he would have responded to the scripture your cited below. I guess for an honest inquirer like myself i will never know b/cos he Jefferson wants to respect the rules of the forum.
George Somsel said:8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 They sing a new song:
Your brother
Sir T
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Well, I guess I must be drawn back into this discussion. Hopefully this last post coupled with my previous ones, when truthfully analyzed (i.e divorce yourselves and properly look at the text) will help with this issue bring clarity.
This is purely symbolic language.
To understand a material harp in a purely spiritual realm, played by spirit beings, is, of course, incongruous. It will be necessary to find what they, as symbols, represent if any application is made to things on earth, just as is necessary in other features of the vision. If all is to be taken strictly as literal and applied to the church, then each Christian would have to use a harp individually in worshiping. This would require as many harps as individuals in the congregation, which is quite enough to show the absurdity of any such interpretation.
If one were to use the text of Revelation 19:1-7, this would both symbolically and literally be true (applicable to the church and NOT violate the command for us to sing, Romans 15:10-11; Ephesians 5:17-19; Colossians 3:15-16; 1 Corinthians 14:15; Hebrews 13:15) and hence eliminate musical instruments. Notice the angels were "saying or speaking" together, just like how it ought to be done here on the earth. Matthew 16:19 should help us understand that.
The fact that Christ is with us in worship should comfort us in what we can (not) do. Ask yourselves what is He doing (Romans 2:12) and what He commands (Romans 15:10-11)?
If we are to worship God in heaven (if we make it), we would have to be properly trained down here on the earth. We cannot do stuff that has not been authorized in heaven. Again, I refer you to my previous posts. It does not seem that they are given the weight that they require, because what is said eliminates what some would like to have done.
I am not of the reformed persuasion, but I do examine the scriptures (Acts 17:11 and 1 Thessalonians 5:21) thoroughly. You have to jump though to many hoops (add your personal preferences) to think musical instruments in worship is allowed.
Mechanical instruments are NOT expedients to the command to sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with the mind and spirit and the understanding to God, period.
BTW. Ted is closer to understanding the perspective.
Bye guys0 -
Ted Hans said:
I suspect he is of a Reformed persuasion or coming at it from a particular Reformed perspective.
That is not Reformed. I should know.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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JeffersonMarshall said:
Well, I guess I must be drawn back into this discussion. Hopefully this last post coupled with my previous ones, when truthfully analyzed (i.e divorce yourselves and properly look at the text) will help with this issue bring clarity. This is purely symbolic language. To understand a material harp in a purely spiritual realm, played by spirit beings, is, of course, incongruous. It will be necessary to find what they, as symbols, represent if any application is made to things on earth, just as is necessary in other features of the vision. If all is to be taken strictly as literal and applied to the church, then each Christian would have to use a harp individually in worshiping. This would require as many harps as individuals in the congregation, which is quite enough to show the absurdity of any such interpretation. If one were to use the text of Revelation 19:1-7, this would both symbolically and literally be true (applicable to the church and violate the command for us to sing, Romans 15:10-11; Ephesians 5:17-19; Colossians 3:15-16; 1 Corinthians 14:15; Hebrews 13:15) and hence eliminate musical instruments. Notice the angels were "saying or speaking" together, just like in how it ought to be done here on the earth. Matthew 16:19 should help us understand that. The fact that Christ is with us in worship should comfort us in what we can (not) do. Ask yourselves what is He doing (Romans 2:12) and what He commands (Romans 15:10-11)? If we are to worship God in heaven (if we make it), we would have to be properly trained down here on the earth. We cannot do stuff that has not been authorized in heaven. Again, I refer you to my previous posts. It does not seem that they are given the weight that they require, because what is said eliminates what some would like to have done. I am not of the reformed persuasion, but I do examine the scriptures (Acts 17:11 and 1 Thessalonians 5:21) thoroughly. You have to jump though to many hoops (add your personal preferences) to think musical instruments in worship is allowed. Mechanical instruments are NOT expedients to the command to sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with the mind and spirit and the understanding to God, period. BTW. Ted is closer to understanding the perspective. Bye guys
Thanks for your response, well appreciated. I will have to give this more serious thought and read the rest of your post carefully.
Regards.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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JeffersonMarshall said:
This is purely symbolic language. To understand a material harp in a purely spiritual realm, played by spirit beings, is, of course, incongruous.
Don't you just love it when they say something is quite literal then turn around and tell you something else is symbolic? I guess it's whatever suits their convenience.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Please forgive my indulgence, and candor. I tried to keep quiet but I just can't help it.
JeffersonMarshall said:This is purely symbolic language
JeffersonMarshall said:each Christian would have to use a harp individually in worshiping.
This is by no means proper exegesis. I'm amazed how we can be so led astray, in order to "shoehorn" our theology into Scripture.
"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery."
Galatians 5:1 (ESV)"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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George Somsel said:Ted Hans said:
I suspect he is of a Reformed persuasion or coming at it from a particular Reformed perspective.
That is not Reformed. I should know.
George what do you mean? what about the regulative principle? Spurgeon would not allow instrument for the reason given by our good friend. of course not all Reform guys agree with this. Truly it is found and rooted in some aspect of the Reform tradition. Dr Masters of the Met Tab (Spurgeon church in London) is sympathetic to the view mentioned by our dear friend although ( the Met Tab) they have a piano. I know of Reform Church's in the UK who take the same view basing it on the Regulative Principle & i suspect that is the case in the US. How do i know this b/cos John Frame was criticise by Reform theologians for his view on Worship. If by "this is not Reform" you mean not all agree on this then i would say - yes but i was careful to note that it was an aspect from a particular Reform point of view.
I will not argue on weather you are right that this is not the consensus in the Reformed camp today but i think the traditionalist would argue that "no instrument" was the prevailing view until recently. The Puritans allowing instruments in worship? Somehow i don't see that as being possible .You may be right but i cannot say for certain.
Yours in Christ
Sir T.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Ted Hans said:
I know of Reform Church's in the UK who take the same view basing it on the Regulative Principle
In that case, I hope they don't have pews in the church since that is also not found in scripture. Come to think of it, they shouldn't even have church buildings since the early church met in members' houses.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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JeffersonMarshall said:
This is purely symbolic language. To understand a material harp in a purely spiritual realm, played by spirit beings, is, of course, incongruous
George Somsel said:Don't you just love it when they say something is quite literal then turn around and tell you something else is symbolic? I guess it's whatever suits their convenience
Okay while i disagree with Jefferson (i still want to give his view some serious thought) should we not be sympathetic to his point? Let's see God sits on a physical throne, God has a right hand, a physical Lamb standing as if it had been slaughtered-all this is visionary/dream like experience. Ah golden bowls full of incense = which are the prayers of the saints Hmmm. What John saw was literal but what does it signify, it goes beyond the literal into the symbolic?
I think a better approach would be to offer exegesis that counters his reading of the Revelation passage. BTW i am not an Amill in eschatology.Sir T.
6 Then I saw between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders a Lamb standing as if it had been slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of the one who was seated on the throne. 8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 They sing a new song:
“You are worthy to take the scrolland to open its seals,for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for Godsaints from every tribe and language and people and nation;10 you have made them to be a kingdom and priests serving our God,and they will reign on earth.”Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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George Somsel said:Ted Hans said:
I know of Reform Church's in the UK who take the same view basing it on the Regulative Principle
In that case, I hope they don't have pews in the church since that is also not found in scripture. Come to think of it, they shouldn't even have church buildings since the early church met in members' houses.
George i did say i disagreed with that view or i will not go that far[:D]
Sir T.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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George Somsel said:
In that case, I hope they don't have pews in the church since that is also not found in scripture. Come to think of it, they shouldn't even have church buildings since the early church met in members' houses.
I've been agreeing all along with the point you are making, and then I realized that the Amish people take this line of reasoning seriously.
It's too bad that God did not make salvation free, and then people wouldn't have to work so hard for it.
But wait, He did, and yet they still do...
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Paul Golder said:George Somsel said:
In that case, I hope they don't have pews in the church since that is also not found in scripture. Come to think of it, they shouldn't even have church buildings since the early church met in members' houses.
I've been agreeing all along with the point you are making, and then I realized that the Amish people take this line of reasoning seriously.
It's too bad that God did not make salvation free, and then people wouldn't have to work so hard for it.
But wait, He did, and yet they still do...
Only a C.H. Spurgeon would have come up with that line[:D] Okay you qualify you are a C.H.S admirer[;)]
Sir T.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Surely y'all jest! .......................(that's an Okie expression)
But there is much to be considered here. When a church borrows $5 million to build a structure. Hmmm, "owe no man anything, save love"..... "I do not dwell in houses made by men"...."and they went from house to house.." So the building project is nothing more than a mortgaged pile of bricks.
I may be mistaken but I believe Brother Jefferson is probably of the Church of Christ, non-instrumental persuasion. I am very familiar with their doctrine because I was raised with similar teachings. The Disciples of Christ, the Christian Church & Church of Christ (both instrumental & non-instrumental) all have common roots that others refer to as "Campbellites."
There are varying degrees of the concept of worship in these churches. Jefferson obviously comes from the church that sees a very strict definition of worship. I've attended social functions in that type of congregation and they will actually announce "worship service is now beginning." Believers then adjust all conduct to solemnly reverence God. Maybe you view worship as something you do every day and everywhere in whatever activity you are doing. I think jefferson views it a little bit differently.
Now, if only we had a NASB Reverse Interlinear we could settle both the question of instruments and the "church" becoming the bank's slave. (How is that for getting back on topic?)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Paul Golder said:
It's too bad that God did not make
That's precisely why this whole business gets me a bit upset.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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JeffersonMarshall said:
Notice the angels were "saying or speaking" together, just like how it ought to be done here on the earth. Matthew 16:19 should help us understand that.
The fact that Christ is with us in worship should comfort us in what we can (not) do. Ask yourselves what is He doing (Romans 2:12) and what He commands (Romans 15:10-11)?
If we are to worship God in heaven (if we make it), we would have to be properly trained down here on the earth. We cannot do stuff that has not been authorized in heaven.JeffersonMarshall said:You have to jump though to many hoops (add your personal preferences) to think musical instruments in worship is allowed.
Mechanical instruments are NOT expedients to the command to sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with the mind and spirit and the understanding to God, period.
BTW.I grow less & less comfortable with this view of musical instruments in worship, especially when Matthew 16:19 & Romans 2:12 (??) are being quoted in support. There is no allowance of Grace as it implies God will be less than pleased with singing accompanied by music coming/arising from the heart.
Dave
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